[LiquidTension]

I just finished this book earlier tonight. It was an excellent read, and anyone that appreciates freedom and doesn't look through the window of their bellybutton as far as the ATF and other agencies are concerned would do well to read it. Here's my question:

If someone were to start something like Bowman did, how many of us would "rise up" like the numerous nameless people that did in the book? How many of us would actually go so far as to kill the people that have ended or ruined countless lives for no good reason? I don't think I could be the first, but I think I could help out after it got going. This brings me to another question:

How many of us have the know-how to pull off something like what happened in the book? If you had the will-power to assassinate people that deserved it, how many of us would be able to do it without getting caught? Like the author said in the book, the gun culture is made up of people with above average intelligence and education (from my experience anyway). Yeah, there are some gun owners that are idiots, but the majority of the actual "gun culture" definitely received more than the average amount of brains when <insert diety here> was passing them out.

I'm not asking for people to sound off with "yeah, I would do this stuff." I'm asking more in general. If someone started it, how far would it go? Or would we just sit around and talk about it and complain to the powers that be like we do now?

[Jim March]

Nobody here can or should answer something like that.

It's all about the level of provocation. There's a point where the evil is so visible, immediate lethal response is called for.

"Around the time the first death camps go up" would be one answer most US citizens would agree with.

:scrutiny:

A better question is: "what are you doing to keep it from getting that far?"

:cool:

[winwun]

Like most situations, the pioneers get the arrows.

Those who come along after the pioneers have been buried enjoy the protections earned by those who died up front.

What would I do ? Dunno. Likely, the same as most, wait until it got started and then sort of look for a leader to emerge.

Point me, I'll march.

[NukemJim]

A better question is: "what are you doing to keep it from getting that far?"

NukemJim

[Henry Bowman]

You rang?????

[bogie]

Think of it this way...

The NRA is probably about 5% of firearms owners. We've got what, 4,000,000 members?

Assume that 1% of this group would be given to radical/extreme action, and you've got 40,000. If only 0.1% head out when the balloon goes up, that's 4,000. Which is about 10x the number of terrorists in the Irish Republican Army.

I think that firearms owners have been VERY patient with trying to get the system to work.

[geekWithA.45]

"Around the time the first death camps go up" would be one answer most US citizens would agree with.

They won't go up until the means to prevent their erection has been neutralized.

Furthermore, death camps are pretty over the top, and not really an American Thing. We don't really have a universal minority enemy that we'd deem suitable for concentration camps. (although Muslims are pretty nervous these days)

What I _can_ forsee is a sort of technologically enforced minimal freedom socialism death by a thousand cuts "for our own good" kind of thing, and that's just palatable enough that I don't think it's magnitude of provocation will be enough to trip public sympathy in favor of armed resistance.

In addition to that, the "death of Liberty by ten thousand regulations" is a vaporous enemy to fight. You can get 1 regulation struck down, but there are still 9999 remaining, and another 10 springing up, like a hydra.

Q:
A better question is: "what are you doing to keep it from getting that far?"
A:
The New Jersey Coalition For Self Defense (http://www.njcsd.org)


think that firearms owners have been VERY patient with trying to get the system to work.

Amen.

[blackhawk2000]

I'm in. Let me know when;)

[winwun]

Bogie, you mentioned "terrorists" in the IRA.

What these "terrorists" want is their country free of foreign intervention.

Would you do less if the US were invaded and a portion of it occupied by foreign forces ?

[bogie]

I sure as heck wouldn't set off bombs in public areas where noncombants would be injured.

[dog3]

bogie;

It was Jan 30th, 1972.
Derry, Ireland.

Go look it up. It came to be called
"Bloody Sunday".

I remember.

The truth, as always, probably lies
somewhere down the middle.
But I do know that the IRA ranks
swelled after this "event".
The British, acting under Brigadier Patrick MacLellan made clear what they
were willing to do. What came
after is a really good illustration of what happens when people (from then on and
forever more labled terrorists) fight
governments.


A lot of folks will always say, "Of course they
are terrorists, they use-d bombs." Well,
is it bombs that make the terrorist?

These days, and near as I can tell
from everything I have read over the
decades (and it's been a few) that
a terrorist is any one person who
bears arms against a government.

It is a term universally applied to anyone
who is fighting and isn't openly sponsored
by and wearing the uniform of, an UN
recognised government.

Now even entire races of people
are terrorists.

Terrorist is a word that no longer has
any real meaning. If it ever did.

I would never bomb my own town.
I'm pretty sure of that.

I like to think that had I been
in that march. (And I certainly could
have been) and my priest had been
cut down by a para with a FAL, while
waving a white handkerchief while
trying to assist another man down,
(as eyewittnesses have stated)
that I'd be pretty upset.

The "war" in Ireland has been going on
for over 700 years. It isn't a very simple
conflict.

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

If your from New Jersey and reading this, take Jim March's words of wisdom:

A better question is: "what are you doing to keep it from getting that far?"

:D JOIN US! :D
We are everyday average Joe's trying to make a difference.

www.njcsd.org

The main problem :confused: ? Your average gun owner feels that paying their $35.00 to an XYZ organization is ALL they have to do to protect their rights. :banghead:
Get involved now people. The rights you save may be your own!

As to the answer to the original question for the record:

;) I'll let you know when it happens. ;)

:( I pray to GOD that it does not. :(

[rhedley]

Or would we just sit around and talk about it and complain to the powers that be like we do now?

[WingZero]

The only things that exist, are the things we let exist.
(That is of course, pertaining to that which God has allowed us to control)
If a threat is present, it is up to us (you) to decide how to deal with it.
Whether preemptively , or other wise.

[12.7x99mm]

Assume that 1% of this group would be given to radical/extreme action, and you've got 40,000. If only 0.1% head out when the balloon goes up, that's 4,000. Which is about 10x the number of terrorists in the Irish Republican Army.


You computations are staggering and very true.

How many people did bowman have in the book in his immediate team? (Not counting all the people he called up from the newsgroups/net) ?

What was it like .... about 4 people

[Jack19]

What these "terrorists" want is their country free of foreign intervention.
No, what "these terrorists" want is a Marxist state, with them in charge, and the freedom to continue their drug smuggling operations. It hasn't been about "uniting Ireland" or "Irish freedom" in 80 years. Both "sides" have their paramilitaries, neither wants a free and democratic Ireland.

Who's worse Johnnie Adair or Gerry Adams? Both are criminal thugs for my money. (And I was accross the street then Airey Neave was blown up in 1979.)

With regard to the original question, I think what someone else mentioned here is true....US citizens in general, and gun owners in particular, have been very patient waiting for the Constitution to work the right way. We sat through Waco with hardly a peep, I think it would have to be pretty bad before an armed response happened.

And, as someone else also mentioned, what are we doing now to keep that from happening? We still have the vote to hold them accountable, we can still contact members of congress to voice our opinions. If the AWB gets renewed next year with Republicans in charge....just wait until the next Dem President gets voted in...then we'll see some gun control. :barf:

[H Romberg]

"First death camps"

The problem with that one is that they probably won't advertize it as such. Heck, Camp X-Ray is (I hope) a far cry from one, and its got us on the Amnesty International hit list.

Any sophisticated bad guy on a power trip would probably use existing prisons for the purpose, and just make it a lot easier to get in and get a death sentence. Anti-terrorism legislation would make a pretty handy tool to do that, since it seems to trump such petty things as the Constitution these days, and especially since the defiition of "terrorist" can be morphed just like McCarthy did with "Communism".

The really scary thing about that book for me is that it details a world VERY close to our own, and shows how easy it is for the state to push folks over the edge when it (as usual) gets out of hand.

To answer the question though, the reaction Bowman got in the book would need a much more intrusive state to materialize in reality. Folks live, even with all our flaws, pretty well in America right now. Most people won't cross that line unless they either have nothing left to lose, or are so ticked off that they no longer care what they have to lose. We're not there yet, and I hope we never get there. I'll second the "What're we doin to stop it?"

After all, if the principles of freedom are worth killing and dying for, aren't they worth working and paying for too? I think some old Chinese guy said something about winning without fighting being pretty cool right?:D

[rhedley]

[Jim March]

I didn't mean to imply that "death camps" are the sole possible "trigger".

I was only presenting one example of an absolutely unambiguous "trigger".

[Henry Bowman]

The biggest safety enjoyed by the potential tyrants is that freedom lovers (as John Ross pointed out) typically just want to be left alone. But just leaving everyone else alone when statists want to have control will not maintain the status quo of freedom.

In any organization, be it government, a corporation, or a homeowners association, those who wish to control others are drawn to leadership roles. Those who just want everyone to leave everyone else alone are not. In fact, they are usually glad that someone is willing to do the job. This keeps the controllers relatively safe in their positions of control. It has to get really bad before others will interrupt their previously-scheduled lives to accept a leadership position and exert the relatively small and limited amount of control necessary to prevent total anarchy.

In other words, freedom requires eternal vigilence. Sometimes with forceful persuasion.

[H Romberg]

Understood about the trigger event. I almost wish they'd give us one. The incremental approach seems to be working really well though, so I don't hold much hope for its changing.

[sw442642]

This was discussed to death on TFL. The book is like a long Penthouse letter to a gun rag.

However, American Handgunner had a review that the book was idiotic. It called it a masturbatory fantasy. And that it is.

Get to the ballot box.

[simon]

freedom to continue their drug smuggling operations.

The IRA only turned to drug smuggling to finance their operations,because funds coming in weren't enough or weren't often enough,and this was a way to get instant gratification(money)Most were opposed to this way of doing things.

[rhedley]

sw442642
The book is fiction, it is labeled as such by the Author.
I enjoyed it.

[Solinvictus70]

From the excerpts I read on Amazon.com, it seems to fail as art and it certainly lacks any subtlety. There seems to be too many terms only gun people would recognize and with this, the author is merely preaching to the choir. The book IS NOT going to reach outside to anyone who is sitting on the fence on RKBA issues. If anything, it reads like The Turner Diaries without the racial element. If you wish to read political fiction, start with George Orwell and use him as an effective model. Then, to grasp what many statist control freaks want for the US, read Solzhenitsyn.

[brookstexas]

Well concentration camps are already built in every state. FEMA and the ARMY used to have info posted on the their website about civil insurrection etc. and how they would be used.
We are far more along than you know. I used to laugh at the conspiracy nuts but after 20 years with a clearance in the military, living overseas and becoming politically active THEN politacally aware, I think there is no doubt what's up. The UN is meeting right now discussing global small arms control and our president is in favor of arms control here and abroad. We are being slowly led down that path in small steps as they know a sudden change wouldn't fly. Ban this, ban that, nowthe prison industry is the new cash cow look, on the FBI website and see how the numbers of prisoners has tripled in the last 10 years, almsot anything is a felony now. Read the Patriot act and the 3 revisions, addendums.
Wording has changed from "terrorist acts" to "criminal acts".
I have a pamphlet the FBI produced for police departments on how to recognize International and Domestic terrorists. Clues?
Talking about the Constitution, Civil Rights and strong Christian beliefs are a few.
May I suggest try www.InfoWars.Com and see the video "911 Road to Tyranny", documentary that lays it out. If nothing else you won't believe Tim McVeigh acted alone in Oklahoma City anymore. Ever see the news footage within the first hours of the blast on the 4 local OKC news channels? "We have just talked to the Fire Chief etc etc and there are two more bombs identified and being diffused at this time by EOD teams. Twelve security cameras in the area captured the McVeigh truck arrive and explode. Why has the Govt refused all requests for the tapes through the Freedom of Information act, citing National security?
Eyewitnesses say two men got out etc. Don't see this stuff on the National News and can't shut these sights down or people might think maybe there is something to it.
Maybe it's all bunk, but if there is something going on don't you want to know?:what:

[brookstexas]

You should read the book I think, should we be suprised Amazon didn't find it high art? It's a message like Orwell's 1984 set in fiction, he may not have the chops but that's secondary. It's aimed at a specific crowd and not trying to reach the bestseller lists. I owned guns but wasn't a member of any gun organizations
before I read it.
I wasn't very gun issue or gun politics aware when I read it. I researched the events portrayed such as US Vs. Miller, BATF history etc. and it opened my eyes. Don't want to be doomed to repeat history and all that...
BT

[LiquidTension]

The reason I started this thread was because in the book, the government didn't really commit any more atrocities other than the ones that have already happened in real life. It took very little more to start the whole assassination thing, and I'm just curious how close that is to reality. Our government has done some horrible things to the citizens of this country - not in the name of fighting terrorism or national security, but for TAXES. It disturbes me.

I guess I just wanted to know how close the fringe elements of the "gun culture" are to taking matters into their own hands and dealing out justice that is desperately needed.

I'm not saying we should all start popping ATF agents, but how much more is the government going to have to do before someone DOES open the season on the horrid branches of the government? It just seems to me like what has been done is enough, but thanks to the media and the spin they put on it, nobody really believes things are as bad as they are. For most people in this country, life is good and they have no reason to complain. But most people in this country are also oblivious to their immediate surroundings, not to mention the "big picture."

Oh well. Interesting debate, anyway.

- LT

[Wildalaska]

Stupid book, tin hats....on!

WildyetanotherdisturbingthreadAlaska

[Jim March]

Well ya, no question, we'll eventually get to a point where they "Screw With The Wrong Folks[tm]". If the Branch Davidians had been led by somebody with a lot more sanity and both military and PR smarts, it would have happened already. (Hint: if he'd had a secure means of communicating with the outside world, and been able to transmit video to a sat uplink or something while coming across as sane, the Feds would have faced a militia army at their backs. As it was, sketchy reports to the effect of "hang on a bit while I try and sort out what Revelations says" didn't help. Sigh.)

Politically speaking, *I* have been "pushed as far as I'll go" and I've been making life very hard for various high officials all the way up to the state AG via completely legal means; see also:

http://calguns.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=888602736&f=545600176&m=9856051243

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26496

Now, if they get sick'n'tired of me speaking out, and try and flat-out geek me some dark night, could I put up as much of a fight as Bowman? I rather doubt it. I know for damnsure I ain't got access to a 20mm :D.

But on the other hand, they sure as hell know I'll fight "within the rules" so long as they're basically playing by said rules ('cept for their tendency to lie to legislators, but that's now biting them in the butts anyways).

If they decide to completely scrap the rulebook, they'd have to ask themselves what I'd do next.

--------------

Now, let me clarify something: I don't think agents of the California AG, DOJ or various sheriff's deputies/cops would try and assassinate me. I think that's so low-likelihood it's not even worth talking about past the "theoretical example" stage.

What does worry me is this: of the 20 or so really hardcore screwball sheriffs in California (out of 58 total), most of the screwballs have a selection of cronies with CCW. Typically anywhere from 20 or 30 on the low end, running as high as about 300 or a hair more. Average is probably about 150 cronies per wacko sheriff. Now, these cronies are often involved in "other games" in conjunction with said sheriff; funky real estate stuff is among the most common. Basically, many of these cronies snuggle up to the sheriff in order to gain various stuff, like the card room operators who got sheriff Blanas to come out against Indian gaming, or the various developers getting easy access to the sheriff's signoff on Environmental Impact Reports. Once the campaign funds flow, scoring CCW is often an easy bonus.

OK, so what happens if I go poking around in a given sheriff's permitholder list, cross-referencing campaign finance data, corporate ownership records and the like? I'm liable to run across, and expose, a REAL crook here and there. This isn't just theory; the FBI has one of these clowns in jail right now name of Monty McFall and is investigating his buddy Baxter Dunn - sheriff of San Joaquin County.

Those are the guys I'm worried about, the ones the FBI hasn't found yet :scrutiny: and I'm liable to stumble across first.

[rhedley]

......you're doing a HELL OF A GOOD JOB !! ......... and have for years now. Wish I could do as well, you sure would be a good pattern to follow..

[spankaveli]

That sounds like "The Boondock Saints."

I'll have to check it out, thanks. :D

[0007]

sleep lightly, Jim...:uhoh: