Anyone tried Buffalo Bore's 9mm+P+ ammo?


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P. Plainsman
March 19, 2007, 09:54 PM
Hello, all.

Buffalo Bore's entry into the market for premium 9mm defense ammo is five JHP loads, three of them rated +P+:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#9mm

Anyone tried the 115 grain +P+ load (or any of the others)? Buff. Bore says that load clocks at 1426 fps from a Browning Hi Power -- that's scorching. It seems to be tipped with Speer Gold Dots.

They also say this:
There is such a variety of 9mm pistols in public use that we will not determine what guns are compatible with which 9mm loads. It is up to you to determine the compatibility of any ammo with your particular pistols.
Since they list test velocities for the ammo in the BHP, Beretta 92, and Glock 19, I incline to believe the loads would be OK for moderate use in CZ pistols (my sense is that CZs are a bit tougher than the Browning), but I'd be interested to hear others' first-hand experiences with the ammo.

Thanks.

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Marshall
March 19, 2007, 10:15 PM
You shouldn't have a problem with it in a CZ-75, though I have never used it in one. However, it wouldn't be my practice ammo and I would shoot it sparingly.

ARTiger
March 19, 2007, 10:23 PM
Double Tap's ammo has identical performance and uses Gold Dot's except for $4 more than Buff Bore charges for 20 you can get a full box of 50 from Double Tap.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_37

loplop
March 20, 2007, 11:21 AM
The Double Tap ammo linked is rated lower FPS than the Buffalo Bore. The Buffalo Bore is very close to 357 Sig :what:

ARTiger
March 20, 2007, 12:14 PM
loplop: "The Double Tap ammo linked is rated lower FPS than the Buffalo Bore."

You are mistaken sir . . .

DT> 124gr @ 1310fps / 473ft. lbs., 9mm+P 124 gr Gold Dot $23.95/50
BB> 124gr @ 1300 fps/ 461 ft. lbs., 9mm +P+ 124 gr Speer Unicore $19.94/20

DT> 115gr @ 1415fps / 511ft. lbs., 9mm+P 115 gr Gold Dot $23.95/50
BB> 115gr. @ 1400 fps / 500 ft. lbs, 9mm +P+ 115 gr Speer Unicore $19.94/20

This information is current and from their websites: http://www.buffalobore.com; http://www.doubletapammo.com

Not only is the Double Tap ammo more powerful and achieves such at +P rather than +P+ pressures, it costs less than half as much.

I like Buffalo Bore ammo and use it quite frequently in my revolvers, however in this case Double Tap has better loads at a much greater value.

Also . . .
The Buffalo Bore is very close to 357 Sig
Double Tap's .357 SIG loading is slightly more than 100 fps faster with over 100 ft/lbs more muzzle energy than their above 9mm +P load. (Buffalo Bore does not load this caliber) To say a load with 25% less energy is "very close" would not be an accurate presumption.

Regards,
ARTiger

farscott
March 20, 2007, 12:24 PM
Those loads are getting into the performance area of 9x23 Winchester, which is 124/125-grains at 1450 fps. However, 9x23 Winchester brass is thicker at the web and base so as to not require a fully-supported barrel and a small rifle primer is specified.

I would be very careful in which gun I fired those 9x19 loads; a lack of case support could make for some very interesting fireworks.

Nightcrawler
March 20, 2007, 01:04 PM
If you have a Ruger P89, this might be the ticket. Buddy of mine has one; I've never seen chamber walls so thick on a 9mm. :D

Headless
March 20, 2007, 02:07 PM
I saw those loads and was salivating at their specs. I've got a S&W 659 all stainless that doesn't even have +P written on the barrel.. i'm told that this gun is heavily built and can handle +P loadings. Any input on weather that's a good or bad idea? ;)

ARTiger
March 20, 2007, 03:41 PM
While a non fully-supported chamber worries me in general somewhat, many police departments use Winchester Ranger +P+ "law enforcement only" ammo in their Glocks - which have the least supported chamber I have ever seen. There have been some reported KB's in Glocks, but for PD's to be using ammo that has a specific high pressure warning on it (it's 40,000 CUP) is also telling. As far as I know, the Ranger ammo is the hottest loaded somewhat commercially available loading in 9mm.

The 9mm round in general is mostly loaded anemically here versus what's common in Europe.

I would not use +P or +P+ in Kahr's , KelTec's etc., but most service type pistols should be able to handle a limited diet of them. The Ruger's and CZ's for sure can, Beretta's, Sig's, HK's etc - more than likely will be okay as well.

If you want to get a comfort/un-comfort level for hot 9mm loads, just field strip your gun and stick a loose round in the chamber. How much brass shows at the base? If much past the extraction taper is left exposed, there's a small, but real potential for violent case ruptures which could cause serious injury to the shooter and and bystanders. - Not something to play around with IMO.

loplop
March 20, 2007, 05:24 PM
Both of the loads you mentioned above are close to standard 357 SIG ballistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.357_SIG).

Both are quite impressive! It does look like DoubleTap is better priced.

Sundles
March 21, 2007, 02:03 AM
Friends,

I dont know much about the Double Tap ammo, but being a ballistician by trade and having desinged every load that Buffalo Bore makes, I can state that no one, including Double Tap is getting those velocities with even the best modern powders and doing it inside SAMMI +p specifications. It just isnt happening. Those velocities, will generate +P+ pressures.

Also, 9mm brass is not plagued by thin web walls like 45 acp or 40 S&W. So you dont need a fully supported chamber to shoot +P or +P+ 9mm ammo. We routinely fire the +P+ ammo in Glocks which do not have a very supported chamber.

Our +P+ loads are loaded to a level that is common for 9mm ammo in Europe, but American 9mm ammo, is really watered down. Use our +P+ only in moderate to large 9mm pistols and you wont have any problems. The tiney pistols have too little slide travel to feed reliably, SOMTIMES, at the slide velocity generated by +P+ loads.

ARTiger
March 21, 2007, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the information Mr. Sundles, It is always nice to hear firsthand from industry experts.

I thought DT's claim for their 9mm at +P seemed odd in that it approximated other +P+ loadings. Nonetheless both yours and their loadings are taking the 9x19 into an arena it should have been playing in for years that was reserved for reloaders only. Thanks! And especially thanks for not hiding behind the charade of "law enforcement only" as some major ammo manufacturers have done.

Since, to my knowledge, there is no "official" SAAMI standard for +P+, do you define that to mean 42,000 CUP (maximum average) versus </= 38,500 for +p? Also, what is the CUP of your 115 and 124 grain loadings?

Sundles
March 21, 2007, 10:44 AM
ARTiger,

You are correct that there is no SAAMI spec for +P+, so any +P+ designation, from any maker, for any ammo, could be andything over the SAAMI spec for +P. Hell it could be 45,000 or even 50,000 CUP, because there is no SAAMI spec for +P+.

Our two loads you asked about are running just over 42,000 CUP.

I'm betting (guessing) that Double Tap designated thier +P+ ammo as +P only because they could not find any brass that was headstamped +P+. I darn well know that thier pressures are +P+ if the ammo is truly generating the speed they claim.

BsChoy
March 21, 2007, 12:57 PM
Makes since as the 9mm is a high pressure round by design so the brass should hold up even in a chamber that is not fully supported. I would have to vote for double tap just because of the value...the numbers on each might be slightly elevated but they both seem more than adequate.

P. Plainsman
March 21, 2007, 04:53 PM
Thanks for the info, Mr. Sundles. Much appreciated!

It may be a week or two before I get a chance to hit the range and try out the BB loads in my CZs. I'll revisit this thread then.

nelson133
March 21, 2007, 04:59 PM
Kel-Tecs are rated +p and are a locked breech pistol. The recoil can be quite severe in them with the hot loads due to the weight of the gun.

EdLaver
March 21, 2007, 05:25 PM
would this load be safe for the XD sub-compact 9mm?

Nevermind Sundles comment answered my question

P. Plainsman
April 10, 2007, 08:05 PM
Fired a box of the 115 grain 9mm+P+ ammo from Mr. Sundles and crew. These proved to be good loads in informal target shooting at about 20 yards, outdoors, dim daylight. The low-flash powder is quite effective. Round is loud and recoil is "abrupt", but quite manageable; I was shooting a compact CZ P-01 pistol and didn't have any comfort or control problems.

Accuracy was good. Just a step behind the really gilt-edged loads (at least in my pistols) such as Black Hills 124 gr JHP+P with Hornady XTP bullets. I love XTPs for accuracy in hot loads.

Overall the BB round felt similar to Cor-Bon's "traditional" 115 gr JHP+P (a well known, spicy load) but it had significantly less muzzle flash. The Cor-Bon round can throw sparks; never saw that with the BB ammo.

I hope to pick up some of Double Tap's product soon and compare it.

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