How difficult is it to obtain FFL for yourself...?


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Diesle
January 7, 2003, 12:49 AM
Anyone had any experience with this. Obvious motivators here being shipping directly to yourself and overal cost reduction.

Diesle

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Robert inOregon
January 7, 2003, 12:57 AM
BATF has not been issuing "new" FFL's to those that don't have brick and mortar business. If you can get through the zoning requirement, it may be possible.

WonderNine
January 7, 2003, 01:00 AM
What if you want to sell guns on the web? I heard they make exceptions for that, or are at least starting to.

Greg L
January 7, 2003, 06:26 AM
A C&R FFL is very easy to get. A full FFL (what I think that you were implying) is much tougher without a serious business plan.

Greg

Matt1911
January 7, 2003, 07:15 AM
Could you please explain just what a c&r(collector&relic?)ffl allows one to do?
Matt

JeFF D
January 7, 2003, 08:06 AM
A C&R(curio and relic) license allows one to buy firearms 50+years of age mail order and online.
So its like a regular FFL but only for guns atleast 50 years old.

Nanook
January 7, 2003, 09:14 AM
With the C & R FFL you can't be 'in the business' of selling firearms. It's strictly for use by collectors.

BATF will issue you an FFL if you get through two hurdles: the first is local police approval. Once that's done, you have to have local zoning approval. They ask on the application form if zoning approves it and they do check.

I just attempted to get an FFL last spring. I spoke with the police chief and he said he would sign it. He mentioned that the zoning board would have a problem with it. They did; there were all kinds of hoops to jump through, fees to pay with no guarantee and no refund. The bottom line was it is a gun-based business and they wanted no part of it. This is in a town of less than 5000 people, and one in which people run all kinds of home businesses out of their houses. Including a used car lot if you can believe that. At any given time there are 5 to 6 vehicles alongside this house. No problem there...

So, it is possible, it just depends on your local situation.

JerryN
January 7, 2003, 11:01 AM
I'd need an FFL in order to do custom stock work. I'm sure the local PD would okay it and we don't have no stinking zoning here. :D Wonder what the BATF would say if I wrote that on the app? hehe...:neener:

ed dixon
January 7, 2003, 11:16 AM
How much does a C&R license cost?

Greg L
January 7, 2003, 11:24 AM
$30 for three years. I saved that on the first order. Plus UPS dropped them off at my front door.

Greg

2nd Amendment
January 7, 2003, 11:26 AM
Another lucky soul with no zoning. :D If it's anything like trying to get a state booze license that fact will probably send them into brain lock.

dave
January 7, 2003, 12:03 PM
Is there a certain Dept of the BATF that takes care of the request? Can it be done on-line, of must one contact them by phone or letter?

WonderNine
January 8, 2003, 04:00 AM
So, if I moved out of city limits, I wouldn't have to worry about zoning? What if I sell guns on a website? Does this zoning stuff still apply as well?

Robert inOregon
January 8, 2003, 04:47 AM
WonderNine,

Call BATF and talk to them about your situation and about how they take care of new FFL inquires in your area.

They will talk to you and no, they will not show you the goose step.

Hkmp5sd
January 8, 2003, 05:10 AM
Dave,

Call ATF's Firearms and Explosives Licensing Center at 404-417-2750 and request they send you ATF Form 7 (dealer) or ATF Form 7CR (C&R).

WonderNine,

The zoning applies to what is required to operate a "business" at your location. ATF requires that you actually have a business which includes having local business licenses and tax information. As such, your "licensed premises" may need to be commercially zoned before your County/City will issue you a business license.

BTW, how do you plan to sell guns off a website only and not in person? The only way that would work is that you send all of your sales to a FFL and they then transfer it to the buyer. You cannot sell guns directly to individuals, even in your own state, over the internet and ship the gun to them. For sales to individuals, they must come to your licensed premises and take possession there.

Bob Locke
January 8, 2003, 09:54 AM
For sales to individuals, they must come to your licensed premises and take possession there.
What about being licensed at your home but working almost exclusively at gun shows?

(I ask because I'm giving that some serious thought.)

starfuryzeta
January 8, 2003, 10:44 AM
You can get the C&R form online, here:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms

Then look for the Curio and Relic link.

BTW, be prepared to spend much of your income collecting old rifles and pistols, and generally pissing off your significant other. ;)

schild
January 8, 2003, 01:06 PM
Read the small print, as an FFL the ATF has the right at anytime to search your place of business with no warrant. I gave up my FFL once Klinton came to power, wasn't worth the hassle anymore.

WonderNine
January 8, 2003, 02:51 PM
Read the small print, as an FFL the ATF has the right at anytime to search your place of business with no warrant. I gave up my FFL once Klinton came to power, wasn't worth the hassle anymore.

Right, that's what I worry about is giving up my rights. If I'm selling off of a website only, then they couldn't consider my home as a place of business could they?

Or do I actually have to have a brick and mortor place as a home base?

Beren
January 8, 2003, 04:05 PM
Wondernine, if you need any technical (systems/hardware/consulting) help with starting your online business, please feel free to ask. That's part of what I do for a living. :)

And - consider discounts for all members of Highroad who were registered prior to the opening of your business!

Steel
January 8, 2003, 05:51 PM
With the C & R FFL you can't be 'in the business' of selling firearms. It's strictly for use by collectors

That is silly, really. What's to keep someone witha C&R fro m buying 25 clean, perfectly usable old rifles for "himself" then "deciding" to sell them to "friends". I guess it's a difference in do you make a living doing this, et cetera.

When The Man gets wrapped up in things, it nearly always is fouled up!

Hkmp5sd
January 8, 2003, 07:15 PM
Bob Locke,

There is no problem with that. You can sell at gun shows. The only problem is if you have to deal with waiting periods. That means you have to have a place for the customer to come get the gun once the time is up.


WonderNine,

You must have a physical, real world, brick and mortar location to obtain the FFL. This will be the location that other FFLs use to ship guns to you. This location MUST comply with all local business ordnances and local firearm laws.

If I'm selling off of a website only, then they couldn't consider my home as a place of business could they?

Exactly how do you anticipate selling "off a website only"?

Gewehr98
January 8, 2003, 10:59 PM
For Internet sales, there's still got to be a physical address where the guns are kept prior to sale while the licensed dealer runs the background checks on prospective customers. The ATF will require it before they issue the license. That physical address is what's gonna be printed on the FFL.

As for "being in the business" while holding a C&R FFL, if you as a C&R FFL holder bought 25 C&R eligible guns at once, I'm certain that a collector's purchase of that quantity would send a flag up for the ATF to ask questions. Just like multiple handgun purchases do already. Collectors are pretty discriminating in their purchasing habits. They aren't usually known for buying 25 guns at a single stop, and certainly not known for unloading them in short order. Straw purchasers have been known to, though. Food for thought. Keep your bound book squared away, regardless. :scrutiny:

Once, while the ATF was trying to recruit me as a GS-11 in Walnut Creek, CA, they gave me a tour of their facility. They home in on what I'd thought was seemingly benign gunowner stuff.

Bob Locke
January 10, 2003, 12:05 AM
There is no problem with that. You can sell at gun shows. The only problem is if you have to deal with waiting periods. That means you have to have a place for the customer to come get the gun once the time is up.
Colorado's a "wait-free" zone, at the moment. Don't see that changing anytime soon, either.

Time to look into the local zoning with respect to storing firearms at the house I guess.

larry_minn
January 10, 2003, 03:16 AM
IMO do NOT do business out of your home. Build a small yard shed if you have to and ALWAYS conclude busines there. Otherwise they have permission (from what I understand) to check your house.
Normally the ATF does not do that but if I planned to get FFL you can be sure it would NOT be in anything connected to my house.
IF you have every been charged a late fee on credit cards and/or have trouble keeping perfect records do NOT get a FFL. The smallest honest mistake is a BIG problem.
I.E. a buyer wrote in TODAYS date for DOB. The threat of a $1000 fine unless he produced the person for ATF to check out. Lucky he lived only 5 miles from FFL.
I know I can never get a FFL because I do not keep good enough records.

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