[DDS]

Greetings

How does the detective special handle +p loads? Is there any particular model that exceeds the others?

Many thanks
DDS

[medmo]

When you say "handle" do you mean shootability or durability of the gun? I have read where the D frame Colts should not be fed a regular diet of +P loads. I have ONE that has digested several hundred over the years and shows no increased significant accelerated wear and tear. The +P in this frame is extremely managable for shooting and follow up shots.

I typically don't shoot much +P loads but carry them in my Detective Special. Generally I shoot lots of 158 gr. SWC hand loads with Unique.

If you are asking is it okay to run +P loads through the guns... I would say Yes.

[Ala Dan]

My 3x 2nd series (1947-1972) Colt Detective Specials are absolute "safe
queens", neither too be carried or fired. With that said, I think the day
will come when these "crown jewels" of snubby revolvers will double in
price~! Two blued models of mine date back to 1966, while the factory
nickel model is of 1971 vintage; and its only been test fired 6 times, or
one cylinder full. As a matter of fact, I cleaned and lubed the three DS
and the polished blue 2nd series (late '72) Colt Agent yesterday 3-21-
07~! ;)

To be more specific regarding your question, I would refrain totally from
using any +P loads in these little gems. :D

[SaxonPig]

Seeing as how factory +P ammo is loaded well below industry maximum pressure for the caliber I don't see how a quality gun would be damaged or excessively worn by using it. The "+P" is a marketing fabrication and the current +P load (125@925) is actually quite mild.

[Sundles]

Got to agree with Saxonpig. Most +P loadings are not really +P, but a few of them are.

[dfariswheel]

The Post-1972 Colt Detective Special with the heavy, shrouded barrel was factory rated for "up to" 3000 rounds of +P, after which the gun was to be returned to Colt for possible frame replacement.

The older "skinny" barreled Colts with the exposed ejector rod were NOT rated for ANY +P ammo.

Truth is, after the +P ammo was introduced, a lot of owners practiced with standard .38 Special ammo, and loaded up with +P for business.
The gun won't blow up, but it will wear much faster and will have it's service life shortened.

[tasco 74]

my spousal unit has her dads little colt det spl he carried when he was a cop here....... i reload for it and it will NOT see any plus p loads period!!!!!

[SaxonPig]

Sorry dfariswheel but I have to say phooey. The DS is the same frame as the Police Positive Special and if any such gun needs a new frame after 300 rounds of weak-ass and puny factory +P I will eat my hat (and it's a big one). I know this is what Colt said, but it's a big load of phooey. It's the same phooey when S&W says it.

Here's an ad from Colt, published in 1940, stating that 38/44 ammo can be used in the PPS (I have a similar ad somewhere for the Detective Special but I can't find it at the moment but the guns are the same except for barrel length).


http://www.fototime.com/7D21D801F3EF6FD/standard.jpg


And just to top that off, here's a pre-war ad from S&W giving the green light to use 38/44 ammo in the K frame M&P (and note that this is a pre-war gun for those who say only post-war is OK with +P).


http://www.fototime.com/AADF9E38D2D5D16/standard.jpg


Note that the 38/44 ammo was loaded to much higher pressure than is the current +P. It's not even close. Yet these old guns were OK with it.

Factory +P is not hot, it's not warm, it's not even loaded to the same level as standard ammo was back in the 1970s and earlier. Current factory +P is plinking ammo.

But to be on the safe side, I would limit a DS to no more than 50,000 rounds before having a smith take a look at it.

[SaxonPig]

Tasco74- That's your choice. But factory +P is a fairly puny load and will not harm a quality revolver.

[tipoc]

The old 38/44 load was designed for the N frame S&W Heavy Duty and the Outdoorsman. The Colt New Service and the Colt SAA also handled this load well. Where the original 38 Spl. loads could do about 800 fps with a 158 grain bullet out a 6 1/2" barreled revolver the .38-44 could get close to 1300 fps with the same bullet loads in the 1100-1200 fps were offered by Remington among others. Not a wimpy load by any means it led to the development of the .357 Magnum. Doug Wesson and Phil Sharp developed a load that generated 48,500 pounds of pressure and fired hundreds through an Outdoorsman without harm to the gun. This was the N frame. Many boxes of ammo came with the warning printed on them that they were to be used only in the N frame S&Ws or Colt New Service.

Most +P ammo today generates about 20,000 pounds of pressure or a bit more. Standard .38 Spl. loads operate at about 17,000 psi. +P+ loads available mostly to law enforcement have no set limits and some may come to about 30,000 psi. A far cry from what the .357 Magnum can do or the old 38/44 loads.

Both S&W and Colt spent a good deal of time and money when they released their .357s on makeing sure the steel and heat treatment could stand the higher pressure of the .357 (as well as the 38/44). They did not make their smaller .38s to the same specs (well not till years later).

Service life of the M&P and the Police Positive, even the Officers Model guns lessened with the use of 38/44 loads in them. This is true, despite the ads.

So warnings were issued. They carried over to the +P. I believe that this was because some fools were damaging their guns. Those that were prone to blame others for their own errors and ignorence got lawyers and sued or threatened to sue.

There is a worthwhile article on this subject in the Oct.-Nov. 2006 issue of Handloader Magazine by Brian Pearce that is worthwhile reading.

Folks can draw their own conclusions on what to use in their pieces. On occasion I shoot +P out my alloy framed Cobra and that is what it carries. Mostly I stick to standard for range use. Cheaper and easier on a gun that is as old as I am. I do the same with my old M&Ps.

tipoc

[DDS]

Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated.

[dfariswheel]

I always go on what the people who actually designed and built the gun say.

When the FACTORY says NO, I tend to go with what they say.
I know the older guns were rated for the hot 38-44, but Colt changed their recommendation on that.

The attitude of "Well, I don't CARE what the factory says" makes factories and gunsmiths cringe.
NO ONE knows more about it then the people who made it.

You're free to do as you please, but I'd be a little hesitant to recommend to shooters who may be new enough to not be knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision, to be shooting something the factory NOW says is NOT suitable.

[Sundles]

difariswheel,

Being in the gun industry, I must tell you that factories (firearm manufacturers) these days are interested in only two things.

First, they cover thier butt, period. That is whay they make the recomendations they do, not because they know what their product is really capable of, but because they want to be able to sit in front of a jury and look good--I promise. That is truthfully the way it is in this law suit happy country and manufacutruers have attorneys on staff that advise them to say what they they say. You do not get the truth from manufacturers, but you do get what they deem best covers their butt--sorry, but thats the way it is.

Second, they want to make sales, but they will only do it when they heavily apply the above rule no. 1 first.

[Desk Jockey]

DDS-

Download a copy of the 1994 Colt DS user's manual here: http://www.stevespages.com/page7b.htm

[SaxonPig]

It's not the designers nixing +P, it's the LAWYERS who fret about lawsuits from people with junky Stars and Rubys and RGs and God only knows what other crappy guns that might blow up with full-power ammo.

I have to keep coming back to the original premise. Factory +P is not hot. It's not warm. It's a 125 bullet at 925 FPS for crying out loud. That's a gallery load!

Stop listening to the Chicken Littles for a moment and simply THINK about the load.

A 125 at 925.

This is downright wimpy. I don't care what sort of label they put on it, a 125 at 925 is NOT a high-pressure load. It is, in fact, about 3,000 PSI below maximum allowable for the caliber.

I've posted this before but here it is one more time. A 1942 M&P that was well-used when I got it and I decided to see what effect (if any) +P would have on this gun. To date it has digested 400 rounds of Remington +P and 500 rounds of my own loads using the same 125 grain JHP at a measured 1,100+ FPS. So far, nada. Nothing. Zip. No sign of wear or damage and I don't expect to see any develop.

http://www.fototime.com/337D81FE3E44585/standard.jpg


I spoke to a former cop who told me that between 1958-1960 he fired 2,000 rounds of factory 38/44 ammo through a then-new Model 10 without any effect to the gun. If the 38/44s won't hurt a K frame, then the wimpy +Ps don't have a prayer of doing anything.

Now, think about THIS: Given our litigious society, and the fear-mongering by the corporate lawyers, do you think any ammo company would sell any ammo that would be unsafe in any gun out there that might be used to shoot it? I sincerely doubt it. If they sell +P, it's safe in any decent gun. The +P label and the gun makers' dire warnings are for legal cover.

But as always, the decision is up to the individual. If someone wants to believe the fallacy that +P is a hot load that can harm his gun then he's welcome to avoid using it. Makes no difference to me.

[tipoc]

+P is warm. It is well below what the .38 Spl. can do.

But the hottest loads of the .38 Spl. will wear an older K or J frame out. Particularly if they are the older alloyed frame guns.

Take a close read of the ads Saxon Pig posted above. If one believes that the .38Spl. will shoot clean through a bullet proof vest, (granted the 38/44 loads could, at least the vests of the day) and will "knock a man clean off his feet" and shoot through a car end to end, than well ... I guess they will shoot loads at 30,000 psi all day with out ill efffect. Only they won't.

But the 20,000 they can do well enough. To be on the safe side shoot standard .38 spl. through it and +P on occasion.

Try what Saxon Pig has and fire +P in them as a steady diet and see. The guns will not blow up. Accelerated wear! well it's just normal wear sped up some. A gun can be retuned.

Blameing the lawyers is kinda like blaming attack dogs when their owner sics them on you. Lawyers are hired.

Ammo companys ceased makeing truly hot .38 loads because of the .357. It didn't hurt that the early J frame guns could not handle the 38/44 loads. S&W stuck them in the N frame for a reason.

tipoc

[2ndamd]

I would not shoot many (if any unless defense) .38 +p out of my DS II. Even though the DS II was rated for +p. Hence the "II" part of the title. Colt cuggest a limited diet of +p even in the Detective Special 2 (DS II) which was made to be +p tolerant and was the predecessor of the Colt Magnum Carry.

Besides which +p's are we talking here?:scrutiny:
Winchester 130 grn SXT +p??? Not much difference at all. mile recoil and little muzzle jump. Really a powderpuff +p loading for sure.

Corbon 110 grn JHP +P??? Holy cr@#!:evil: I think I just shot a .357 magnum out of the gun. These rounds are HOT!:what: With a captial "H" :eek: HOT!!!! Seriously, I would caution using too many of these rounds beyond testing for function.

I think it depends on the +p rounds you are suggesting. Just beware that Corbon does make a nasty load that is labeled "+P" :rolleyes: I think they pushed the envelope when they made this round.:D

[Peter M. Eick]

I hate to muddy the waters on this one but what the heck....

My Detective Special, My Diamondback, they get mild loads, no +P in them. WHY you ask? Simple, the dang things are hard to replace with nice specimens so why beat them up?

BUT,

I reloaded for nearly 3 decades the same basic load. I got it when I started and shot my Diamondback over 45,000 times with it. 5 grns of Unique with a 158 grn SWC. It was sacred back in the 70's. It was in the magazines, load books and my tattered Speer manual still has pencil notes in it saying its the most accurate out of the diamondback.

Today this is an overload, not by a little, but by a lot. The current Speer lists 4.7 grns as max on a non-+p and +p is 5.2 grns. So by todays standards I was shooting a mild +P for decades out of the gun. It was my only centerfire and I had a manual with a printed load so I just shot it.

Today, after having sent the Diamondback to Colt now 3 times for retiming, broken bolt screw heads, broken springs etc. I treat the gun a lot more carefully. Heck, I have now spent more on shipping and repairing the Diamondback then I spent on it new. There is not a point in heck in beating it apart anymore. Now I shoot 38/44's and they can take +p or 38/44 ammo since that is what they are made for.


So where does that leave us? In my Colt's I shoot non-+p ammo. Mostly Trailboss now. The driving force is the relative costs of a nice condition diamondback vs. the ability of the gun to handle it. It will handle it AT A PRICE!

One can argue that the loads have been "wimped" over the years. I will go along with that. One can argue that +P is really "standard" pressure stuff from 30 years ago, again I can go along with that. One can argue that all of the 357's/38's have dropped one level of performance over the last 30 years (ie: 357 Mags now = 357 Max's, 357's now = 38/44's, 38 specials now= 38 S&W's etc....) I can go along with that also.

BUT it still does not mean that Colt is making nice Diamondbacks or Detective Specials anymore.

Draw your own conclusions...

[Sundles]

Peter,

BUT if you were to carry one of your older Colts for defensive work, I'll bet you'd load em up with +P stuff, right? And if you did happen to drop the hammer on a bad guy with a few rounds of +P ammo, it wouldnt hurt those old Colts one bit, no?

Most folks on here wont shoot thousands of rounds of 38 SPL +P, but they will carry the +P stuff if they need problem resolution ammo. Doing that, should not hurt the older guns one bit.

[Peter M. Eick]

No I would not. Years ago I might have, but today, with a bit more wisdom and grey hairs I view the whole problem differently.

For example, a factory (winchester) 158 lead RN does 742 FPS out of my 38/44 Outdoorsman model of 1950 (6.5" barrel). Out of the same gun, on the same day, a box of +P Winchester 158 grn Lead SWC does only 862 fps. Wow, what an improvement! All of 122 fps. I nearly can beat the 742 FPS with a 158 grn Lasercast and 3.5 grns of Titegroup for a speed of 732 FPS out of a 2" detective special. The exact same load out of a 4" diamondback does 827 FPS which is nearly up to +P velocities. Checking my 2006 Hodgdon's guide I see on pg 124 that 3.8 grns of titegroup is a max load for a 158 grn standard pressure 38 special. Had I gone for a max load I bet my 2" DS would have nearly outrun the +P out of the 38/44 Outdoorsman.

To me the incremental improvement of the +P does not warrant the potential abuse of the gun.

Consider this. What are the odds that you would actually be forced to carry a detective special or diamondback for defensive work? Dang low. For one thing these buggers are expensive, so unless you are flat out busted and were given the gun, it seems highly unlikely that you would be forced to chose it. But if you were, you could always sell it and get a used 357 magnum snubby that could carry a stouter load.

But anyway, lets assume you did carry it. And lets assume you put +p in the gun. You would practice with the carry ammo right? Ok, how much is good enough? 100 rnds a year, 50 rnds? 6 rnds? Each one of those rounds is a bit more abuse on the gun it does not need to take. Could it take it? Yes, should you do it? I would not. It is pointless to beat up a perfectly good out of production hard to find gun.

But then again, suppose you had to carry it, now suppose you put +p in it. What are the odds that you would actually use it in a defensive pursuit? Now we are getting down to really low odds. Minuscule if you stay out of trouble like I try to.

So why beat on the gun when it is unlikely you would ever need it? There are boutique ammo companies making non-+p ammo in 158 SWC right now.

So when I carry MY Detective Special, I feed it standard 158 grn SWC from either Remington or Winchester, but that is so rare that I don't think about it much. I am not actually sure what is sitting on the shelf right now. The one thing I do know is it is not +p.

So my recommendation before getting sucked into the marketing ploy of +P is to get a gun, get some factory ammo and chrono it and see how yours does. Also, factor in the costs of +P ammo vs. getting a gun that can handle a 357 magnum round. I have yet to see +P ammo going really cheaply...

[Sundles]

Peter,

Check this out. This ammo will be available in less than one month.



Press Release

Standard Pressure, Short Barrel, Lower Recoil, Heavy 38 SPL

Due to customer demand, we’ve developed this defensive 38SPL ammo. Our customers wanted some devastating 38SPL loads that would fill the following criteria.
1. It won’t hurt older/fragile/alloy revolvers. (Non +P)
2. Is effective as a “fight stopper” through the use of proper bullets.
3. Is more powerful than typical/standard, weak 38SPL ammo.
4. Generate much less recoil than our +P 38SPL ammo.
5. Is flash suppressed.
Buffalo Bore is introducing these three different heavy, yet standard pressure loadings for 38 SPL. These offerings are loaded at standard pressure, but they are much more powerful than normal 38SPL ammo. These loads will not harm older more fragile revolvers. So, these loads are safe for use in ANY 38 SPL revolver, provided it is in normal working condition. As stated above, the “POWER” level of these loads is really closer to a typical +P power level, but the pressure is standard. We are able to develop these powerful standard pressure loads with modern non-canister powders. Again, these loads recoil far less than our +P 38 SPL ammo.

All three of these loads are flash suppressed, so firing them in the dark wont blind you. We use flash suppressed powder in our defensive ammo, in the loadings we can, because over 90% of all civilian shootings in America, occur in low light, when the criminal element is at work. We don’t want you blinded by your own gunfire after the first shot.

Item 20C utilizes the same 158gr. very soft lead cast, SWC-HC gas checked bullet, we load in our +P 38 SPL ammo. It is designed to expand and then penetrate quite deep. (Approx. 14 inches in human tissue) This bullet is gas checked and will NOT lead your barrel. Note the below velocities that I recorded out of my personal revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—854 fps (256 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—871 fps (266 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—930 fps (303 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—979 fps (336 ft. lbs.)


Item 20D utilizes a very hard cast 150gr. WAD CUTTER bullet. The bullet is made hard, so it won’t deform or mushroom. It cuts/crushes a “cookie cutter”, full diameter hole in human flesh just like it does on a paper target. It penetrates deeply (roughly 14 to 16 inches in human tissue) and its full diameter profile maximizes blood loss as it cuts and crushes (not slips or slides) its way through tissue. Although I’ve never been shot with a full profile wad cutter bullet, I must assume that the initial impact of that wide flat nosed bullet, is crushingly formidable. As a teenager, I took to the woods on a regular basis and killed many a critter with heavily loaded 38SPL wad cutters’. The effect of a full profile wad cutter on small game was obvious and amazing, compared to regular round nosed bullets. That flat nose, literally hammers living things. These bullets are hard and properly lubed and will NOT lead your barrel. Note my velocities from real world “over the counter” revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—868 fps (251 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—890 fps (264 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—961 fps (308 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—1005 fps (336 ft. lbs.)

Item 20E utilizes a Speer Low Velocity uni-core (Gold Dot) 125 gr. Jacketed hollow nose bullet. This bullet is designed to expand at low speeds and has no problem opening up at considerably less velocity than our advertised 900 fps, from two inch barrels. Penetration in human tissue is roughly 12 inches. Note my test velocities below from real world, “over the counter” revolvers—NOT TEST BARRELS!
a. S&W mod. 60, 2 inch barrel—921 fps (235 ft. lbs.)
b. S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch barrel—938 fps (244 ft. lbs.)
c. Ruger SP101, 3 inch barrel—1019 fps (288 ft. lbs.)
d. S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch barrel—1078 fps (322 ft. lbs.)

[Peter M. Eick]

Lest I requote myself above. Did I not in the last 3 paragraphs basically state that one should get a non-+P load from one of the boutique ammo companies? By the way, I checked, I am currently carrying Remington 158's.

Looks like you are saying the same thing.

[Old Fuff]

Well I was never too popular anyway. :uhoh:

I am a throwback to the dark prehistoric times when one carried a Detective Special and didn't have to worry about its collector's value or where you could find someone to repair it.

There were other snubbies of course, but the smallest one had too small a grip and a horrible double action trigger pull. There was a larger one, and it had an excellent trigger pull, but the frame was too big for the short barrel. If it was lengthened to 3 inches that was another matter, but then it wasn’t a snubby anymore.

The little Colt was just the right size, and held 6 rounds too boot. :)

So for that reason I still sometimes carry one, and when necessary I can service it myself. Keeping it running isn’t as hard as some people think.

Part of the reason my pet is trouble free is because it’s loaded with – are you ready? – 158 grain LSW cowboy loads! :eek:

These don’t expand worth a hoot, and are probably only going somewhere in the upper 600 FPS range. But they penetrate well, have very soft recoil, and shoot dead on to the point-of-aim.

With this combination of gun and ammunition you can shoot rapidly, but accurately – and it is bullet placement that will put an attacker out of action, not raw power. :scrutiny:

If for some reason I think I need more… well that’s what they make .44 Special snubbies for, and after that there is Mr. Browning’s big .45 pistol.

So I worry not about what the latest hollow point is, or how to wring out a few more feet-per-second.

As I once explained to this fellow in the gun shop, who was showing off his new and latest toy… “Why,” he said, “I could hit a man standing in that door over there.” Yes, said I, “ but at this distance I could hit the door knob.” :evil:

[Sundles]

Peter,

Only difference between you and me is that, IF I chose to carry a little D frame colt, I would, just for carry, use a +P load. The only two D frames I have any more is one satin nickle Diamond Back and one Cobra that is factory high gloss nickle.

I of course wont carry one of my D frames. I'll carry a titanium S&W J frame, if I want a revolver. I normally keep a S&W 340PD in one of my coat pockets. It stays there and is with me if I wear that coat.

If I choose to wear a pistol in a holster, it is normally a Glock 23 or a Scandium S&W Commander 1911. I like em lite.

[tasco 74]

by reading all the different viewpoints and data in this topic i'm starting to think maybe my handloads are aliitle more than plain .38 spls..... i load 150 gr lswcs over 3 grs. of bullseye for the colt det spl.... i have no idea what it gets for velocity as i've never shot it over a chony....... it seems tame enough though...

[Old Fuff]

The old mid-range wadcutter load used a 148 grain bullet backed by 2.7 grains of bullseye. Your 150 grain / 3.0 grains of the same powder is in no way excessive.

[fairview253]

Why not just simplify and eliminate all of your worries. Make your old Colts and S&Ws, etc your "Sunday Guns." Just shoot standard "wimpy" .38 spl loads out of them. Nothing to worry about. Now go buy a nice new steel framed Smith or Ruger in .357 Magnum. Carry the Big Boy for defense. Leave the vintage arms for private enjoyment. There is no shame in it.;)

If you can afford the old stuff, you can afford the new stuff. A new Ruger SP 101 in .357 mag can be gotten for under $500, at least in MI. A new GP 100 can be had for less than $550. New Smiths can be gotten for comparable prices.

Done Deal...

:D

[Old Fuff]

Well first of all I’m not exactly worried…. :evil:

It’s the gents who don’t feel secure and warm & fuzzy unless they have a pocket model .357 security blanket,who are worried. :what: ;)

A large part of what’s important is the ability to precisely place a bullet where it needs to be put, and that’s when it’s nice to have a revolver that shoots to the point-of-aim, and has a reliable trigger pull that doesn’t require a winch to get the job done. :cool:

[ArchAngelCD]

There are 2 Colt Detective Specials at a local shop for a long time now. There is a newer one and a older model. (the older model is in worse shape and the price is higher lol) I don't remember what he was asking for them but I'm thinking I should get one before they become too rare to find.

What is a good price for a newer model CD in normal used shape but all the Blue is there?

[PT-Partners]

I guess I am a through back from a long time ago. I have about four of the Detective Specials all pencil barrel guns (i.e. Jack Webb style for those of us with a bunch of gray hair) and one Police Positive in 4 inch. One in particular I shoot a lot and use any and all cheap, bulk, good, as well as hot loads. Not to mention many of my own reloads. Lately I got a case of Remington +P 38 special and with all of it had no issue for the past 10 years.

On the 2 inch Colt with the 6th shot the weight seems to be a bit more forward and fits my hand a bit better than the 5 shot snubs. Just a personal preference.

Normal use, and I have to qualify normal use, is about 3 thousand annually for the average shooter.

I work retail in firearms and very, very, very, rarely will the average guy out there fire 50,000 rounds and get a gun rebuilt. That is a 15 to 20 years or a lifetime of firing considering the cost of ammo, or cost of reloading it for that matter.

It is amazing the potential buyers on used guns who think 50 rounds is a lot. The lack of knowledge or experience for what a steel gun is made to do is incredible.

The fellow who posted the point on the lawyer/liability on plus p is something for consideration, hence why is the european 9mm and european 7.65 (32acp) much hotter than U.S. other than margin and liabilty issues.

Load I personally like for the gun is the 135 plus p Speer Gold dot in .38 special.

Just a few more thoughts.

[Mushinto]

It's amusing how horrified some people can be at the mere suggestion that they actually shoot their favorite guns. To me, I don't need any gun that I can't carry and shoot. And, the D frame colt revolver is my idea of the ultimate backup gun.

dfariswheel hit the nail on the head when he said that Colt recommended having the piece checked out after about 3000 rounds of +P. That is not a condemnation of the cartridge. At the same time, S&W said "NO WAY" to +Ps in their J frames. I practice with standard loads and finish up with a few cylinders of +Ps. I carry 158 gr. LSWCHPs.

Anyone who remembers the sixties should remember that the .38 Special in the standard load is not powerful enough for personal defense. However, those Buffalo bullets do sound very interesting.

ML

[Old Fuff]

Anyone who remembers the sixties should remember that the .38 Special in the standard load is not powerful enough for personal defense. However, those Buffalo bullets do sound very interesting.

Gee, you must just be a kid... why the Old Fuff still remembers the 40's. Some claim that's the 1840's... :D

Well anyway, I'm surprised to learn that the .38 Special (standard load of course) isn't "powerful enough for personal defense." One wonders how any old timers can still be around... :scrutiny:

Over time I have on occasion carried handgun loaded with such powerhouse's as .32 S&W, .32 S&W Long, .32 ACP, .38 S&W, .38 Special, (would you believe .38-40?) .44 Special, .44 Magnum, .45 ACP and .45 Colt. On the two occasions when I had to back anyone down I had (1) a Colt .32 Pocket Automatic, and (2) a .38 Colt Detective Special, loaded with standard police loads, because that's all that was available.

From the turn of the 20th century to the middle 1960's an awful lot of folks got permanently deceased from the effect of being hit with those old fashioned lead bullets going around or under 800FPS. I suppose the reason for this is they didn’t know that the .38 Special was so wimpy.

Not having all of the wonderful new innovations, we in the over-the-hill crowd depended on something called “bullet placement.” It’s an interesting concept, and it seems to work well regardless of the size of the bullet, or power of the load.

You should try it sometime… :evil:

[Mushinto]

... Not having all of the wonderful new innovations, we in the over-the-hill crowd depended on something called “bullet placement.” It’s an interesting concept, and it seems to work well regardless of the size of the bullet, or power of the load...
To each his own. Good luck. I hope you have enough time.
ML

[Old Fuff]

I hope you have enough time.

So do I, and I have a lot more at stake... :uhoh:

But so far I'm way ahead in the game, and plan to keep it that way...

Thanks for your concern though... :scrutiny:

[tube_ee]

that, by this statement,

To each his own. Good luck. I hope you have enough time.
ML

you are vastly overestimating the differences in lethality between any two personal defense handgun cartridges.

There ain't much.

You will not find too many shootings where "power" made the difference. A lethal shot with a .45 is likely to have been lethal with a .380. A survivable shot with the .380 would likely have been survived with the .45.

People who want you to buy stuff have exaggerated the differences between defensive handgun calibers and loads to the point where some seem to think that the weakest will bounce off a fat biker in a leather jacket and the most powerful will instantly kill with a hit to the pinky.

It ain't so.

Shot placement dominates bullet effectiveness. It determines, to a large degree, wound lethality. Anyone who has shot at game will confirm this. There simply isn't enough difference in effective wounding potential between handgun calibers to make up for poor shooting. The edge cases, where caliber makes the difference, are very, very rare. And even then, the second shot resets the measurement. Dice have no memory, and neither do bullets.

Listen to the old guys. They know of what they speak.

--Shannon

[19-3Ben]

Old Fuff said:
From the turn of the 20th century to the middle 1960's an awful lot of folks got permanently deceased from the effect of being hit with those old fashioned lead bullets going around or under 800FPS. I suppose the reason for this is they didn’t know that the .38 Special was so wimpy.

They obviously did not get the memo. Now, being only 22 years old, I know not to die if a bad guy shoots me with a .38spl.

[Old Fuff]

Now, being only 22 years old, I know not to die if a bad guy shoots me with a .38spl.

Absolutely!! You have my permission to ignore it. :D

[Jim March]

Tim's newest standard pressure loads ARE going to fill a bunch of gaps. Older guns, newbie shooters, the recoil-adverse, these are going to work GREAT.

[Sundles]

Jim,

If all goes well, they will be installed on our web site shopping cart for ordering this week. Im not a computer guy, so I have to rely on my web master to do this for me and there are usually some snags, but regardless, pretty soon that ammo will be available. That ammo is the result of us responding to customer requests. The full-charge wad cutter loads are something I shot a lot of as a teenager and I know how effectively they kill game--humans are weaker than wild animals.

[Sundles]

Mushinto,

You are correct about the old 158gr. lead round nose 38 SPL load. That load was the load that all the cops carried and it was so inefective that it cost many a LE officer his life. That load had a very bad reputation, for not being effective. I still have a box or two of that load sitting around--loaded by WW and it says Lubaloy on the box. Nearly worthless, but better than a left hook, I reckon.

[Jim March]

Tim, one other suggestion: how do you feel about taking some or all of the 38 loads and offering them in 357 cases at the same performance as the 38s? Possibly upping the powder charges fractionally to account for the increased case volume?

There are two reasons for such critters: one, it would make cleaning 357 cylinders easier and two, there *might* be a boost in accuracy available.

As to the latter: I shot Speer 135gr loads side by side in my 357 New Vaquero: 38+P and their "mild 357 short barrel" flavor. Same projectile. The "357" version threw tighter groups.

From that 4.68" barrel I'm quite sure the 38+Ps would get up enough steam to hurt somebody, and I can say the same for all of your 38 loads.

Enough 38Spl gets shot out of 357 guns that there may be a market here.

---

One more suggestion: have you considered commissioning and reselling low-cost practice ammo that matches the point of aim of your defensive loads?

In other words, find a source for standard pressure 158gr standard "keith profile" slugs, maybe even quality reloads, test them for point of aim similar to your "good stuff" 150/158s, and sell them as a "practice grade line" understudy for your business use loads? Make it REAL clear these aren't recommended for anything other than practice, but offered as a service at, I dunno, $10 for 50 in 38? Or sell 'em only by the 500 or 1000 lot.

Maybe do a joint marketing program with Georgia Arms, set your website up to buy such practice fodder through to their site while getting a commission, that way you don't even need to stock anything. They've got some of the best bulk practice reloads out there.

People would have one-stop-shopping for practice fodder and a few boxes of primo BuffBore stuff.

[Old Fuff]

Having lived through the era, I can say that the despised standard roundnose .38 Special load worked on many more occasions then it failed, but when it failed people in the law enforcement community and news media took notice. The failures (so called) were often caused because the subject wasn't hit in a vital organ in general, and the central nervous system in particular.

For those that think modern high-performance, hollow point ammunition is a fight-stopper in and of themselves, I would point out the recent shooting in New York City where .40 caliber, Glock armed police officers hit someone something like 11 times, and that individual survived.

That said, a solid, round nose bullet of any construction is the least effective choice, and a full-wadcutter in a revolver is likely the best. The British knew this as far back as the late 1800’s. But even the best bullet/load/cartridge combination will not necessarily cause an “instant stop” if the hit is a peripheral one. The consequences of not understanding this can be seen by reviewing the famous FBI - bank robber shoot-out of some years ago in Miami.

[RandomMan]

If you can afford the old stuff, you can afford the new stuff.

I disagree. I shopped for awhile and found an old Colt at a lower price than an old Smith and Wesson or even an old Ruger.

I personally carry a 2nd issue Agent L.W. with the matte finish. The gun is sitting right here, right now, loaded with 158-grain LSWCHP +Ps. I reserve the +P for about once every 6 months shooting (to rotate ammo, I shoot it in my steel K-Frame). That way, I get some practice, but I try not to wear on the gun too much. I'm looking forward to the Buffalo Bore standard pressure loads with great anticipation.

-Rob

PS: I never feel underarmed with 6 rounds of .38 special...but I might feel undergunned with just 5. :evil:

[Sundles]

Jim,

Also coming out this week is our new 357 Tactical, Lower Recoil, Low Flash ammo. Three loads. Nope, they are not as watered down as our 38 SPL ammo, but they are lighter loads, by a long way, than our standard Heavy 357 ammo.

Not all 38 SPL loads will give worse accuracy than 357 brass in 357 chambers. Some will and some wont and it will vary a great deal from gun to gun.. Plus, 38 brass gives a much faster tactical reload out of 3 inch and shorter barrels--because of the short ejector on short barrels.

Any who, you covered a lot of ground in that last post that I cant comment about on an open forum, but if you want to phone me, we can talk. 406-745-AMMO (2666)

[Peter M. Eick]

I am with Old Fuff on this one. I used to think that more power was better. Hence the love of the 10mm and 357sig. Great rounds, but as time when on, I got a bit greyer and a lot smarter, the 10mm seemed like overkill. Hence I downgraded(?) to a 9mm and 38 special. 9mm is great for carry out of a P7PSP and the 38 special in a 1934 Heavy Duty is a great field gun. I can hit what I want with it, where I want. That is the most important item of both my carry guns. I am accurate with them and have confidence.

I remember the 38 special being "not so bad" in a nice SWC vs. a round nose. Having hunted a bit with SWC's I never really had a problem. I just remember my Sargent back in shooting training/PPC and he kept stressing accuracy over speed. He wanted us to be on target, not super quick.

So, I still come back to the idea of a nice 158 SWC with a reasonable quality of load out of one of the boutique shops or even Winchester/Remington. No real need to go +p or +P+ for the marginal gain.

[Sundles]

Peter,

I agree with everything you wrote, EXCEPT (you knew there had to be an "except") the part about the "marginal" gain. Lets assume you are correct that the gain is only marginal--I am willing to accept this premise. However, struggles for ones life are such that I am willing to get ANY gain I can. Football games, like life, are some times won or lost by inches and a strugle for your life or your wifes life, may also be won because of a tiny advantage. Of course this is all specualtion as each life struggle is different, but I will take any "marginal" gain I can get, considering the potential consequences. I am amazed at how easily we pass off a gain because it kicks too much or costs too much, when we consider the lives of our loved ones and the consequences of failure at the very moment it all matters..

If I choose to carry a snub, I'll load it with the most powerful/effective load available and then I'll practice till I know the recoil wont bother me. I'll take every tiny gain I can get and hope it is enough if the moment of truth arrives.

[tipoc]

I also agree with Old Fuff. I'll also try out the new loads.

tipoc

[Old Fuff]

If I choose to carry a snub, I'll load it with the most powerful/effective load available and then I'll practice till I know the recoil wont bother me. I'll take every tiny gain I can get and hope it is enough if the moment of truth arrives.

But if we are talking about a "pocketable" .38 or .357 snub there is a necessary trade off between "most powerful" vs. recoil control - and the ability to make fast, accurate shots with precise bullet placement may be more critical to survival then raw power in and of itself.

No less an authority then the late Bill Jordan, of the U.S. Border Patrol (and a personal friend I might add) advocated the use of the .22 WMR in ultra-light snubnose revolvers for the reasons I cited above. But he was a true master when it came to bullet placement under pressure.

The issue is not how much one is "bothered by recoil," but rather how much time is lost between making accurate repeat shots vs. fast but probably ineffective ones - witness the incident in New York City that I previously cited.

Certainly greater power is advantageous, when the more powerful cartridge is matched with a handgun of sufficient size and weight so that recoil is effectively controlled. But when a larger, heavier handgun is not an option, the “most powerful” may be a poorer choice over the “most effective.” They are not necessarily the same.

[Sundles]

Old Fuff,

Got to agree with almost everything you said, but I would practice ( I do) like crazy until I was proficient with something that is considered old school+P loads.

This whole concept of dealing with recoil has always been a sore spot when I hear folks complaining about recoil pain or slow/inacurate follow up shots, etc. But I realize I am abnormal. I would prefer to shoot a boat load of ammo practicing with more powerful ammo. I will concede that the old 38 SPL 158gr. SWC load was better than the 158gr. round nose too, but it was still weaker than I like if I have to drop the hammer to save my life.

When FA came out with their 454 Casull in the early 1980s, I bought several of them and began reloading them to the hilt. ( 300gr. bullet @ 1750 fps out of a 6 inch tube) I was so happy to have a smallish, portable revolver that had near rifle type power, that I simply lived with the recoil--again, I know I am weird that way.

[PX15]

I'm of the opinion that a quality revolver will accept a reasonable number of +p rounds without going into an immediate "self-destruct" mode.

I do agree that the more higher pressure rounds you shoot the more wear you are causing the firearm...

Having said that, my wifes "vehicle" firearm of choice is an older (exposed ejector rod model) Colt Cobra.. It is loaded with 6 +p's, and I have absolutely no doubt it will manage to send all six of them down the tube should it become necessary. I have other possible "better" choices", but she likes the Cobra, and I think being comfortable with your cc firearm is very important.

I do not, nor does my wife, practice with +p's, but I have approximately 14 handguns, (more or less at any one time), and any of them I consider carrying concealed for personal protection has +p's in it if plus p's can be had.

Increased pressure insures increased wear, not just in firearms. You have to make up your own mind if the trade off is acceptable to you.

I don't deliberately abuse anything I own, much less my old D frame Colts. But I have faith that the old D frames were indeed quality made, of quality materials, and won't mind a bit putting a few +p's downrange in your personal defense...

Best wishes, and just my opinion..

J. Pomeroy
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5053.jpg

(Yeah, I need black Tyler's on the Cobra's, but I had the silver laying around, and the old Colts seem quite happy with them...) ;)

[Jim March]

Tim, I think I will call you later today.

Two quick points:

* A lot of us are very fond of guns that are good, but "somewhat weak". I have a late-'70s production Charter Arms Undercover. Charter QC varied all over the map but the design was solid and this specimen is a jewel. Lockup is tight as a drum, alignment and timing are perfect, barrel gap is .002" and I can hit a torso-sized target out to 50 yards 100% of the time firing SA. I flat love that gun. At 17oz it handles the felt recoil of Remmie or Winnie 158+P just fine...I would assume that the new standard pressure Buffbores would feel similar or possibly milder as the peak pressure is at least a tad lower (a "broader" power stroke).

* Another big factor is a desire for subsonic loads for less indoor ear damage in an emergency. From a snubby Tim's original formula 158+P is likely not going to go supersonic but from my 4.68" Ruger, it almost certainly will. The standard-pressure variant in the Ruger should stay subsonic (pending tests of course, it'll vary by barrel quality and other factors). Should hit 950 to 1,000fps range.

So that's one load (standard pressure 158 gascheck hollowpoint) that has merit in two of my guns for different reasons.

What else...

I've seen photos of Winchester 158+Ps fired from snubs into cloth-wrapped gel. They generally failed to expand. What's interesting is HOW they failed - the nose cavity "opened up" to just about bore width. So it still had the hollow, but in terms of wounding ability it was basically a bore-width flatnose critter.

What this means to me is this: I'm not too interested in Tim's 150gr full wadcutter. I'd much rather buy his standard pressure soft lead gascheck 158 hollowpoint. If the latter expands, great. If it doesn't, it's functionally going to be the same as the 150, just eight grains heavier.

Some people won't see it that way. They'll assume that snub expansion flat doesn't happen and therefore they go with a flat nose. Until now, we just haven't had a standard-pressure 38 that reliably expands and some people aren't going to believe that's changed.

I disagree, the Remmie 158 doing 850ish in soft lead damned well DOES expand, there's a ton of data proving it. If Tim is shipping a 158 soft lead hollowpoint, and it gets the speeds he claims, it'll work at least as well. And Tim's published velocity data ALWAYS proves very accurate - see also the independent velocity data on BuffBore loads compiled by Gunblast, Brassfetcher and others.

So - the 150 is for skeptics, the 158 is for those who look at test data :). Kewl.

[Mushinto]

... Until now, we just haven't had a standard-pressure 38 that reliably expands and some people aren't going to believe that's changed.

I disagree, the Remmie 158 doing 850ish in soft lead damned well DOES expand, there's a ton of data proving it. ... So - the 150 is for skeptics, the 158 is for those who look at test data . Kewl...
I agree with you about the superiority of that Remington round. However, I believe it is a +P and not a standard pressure round.

ML

[Jim March]

Mushinto: if Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore is to be believed, their new 158gr standard pressure lead hollowpoint is similar in weight, *speed* from a 2" barrel, design and lead alloy (soft!) to the Remington. But the Remmie is indeed +P, while BuffBore's version isn't.

If the speed is the same, the rounds should perform the same in a human target. And the Remmie works damned good.

(There's two practical differences other than pressure: Tim's load has a "gas check" at the base, a copper plate that doesn't affect performance at the target but helps eliminate barrel leading. The combustion gasses can't fry the lead base of the bullet due to the copper (or aluminum?) plate. He's also using low-flash powder, basically he's spiked it with a little bit of something that reduces muzzle flash and the "night blinding effect".)

When Tim claims his new round is not +P but gives the same performance as a Remmie +P, what he's really saying is, he's using a different type of powder to put the same amount of push on the bullet, but stretch that push out over time so that PEAK pressure is about 3,000 pounds square inch less.

It's the peak pressure that destroys guns, not the total amount of energy put on the bullet.

We've known this ever since the conversion from black powder to smokeless circa 1900ish. Back then, you could buy new smokeless rounds with identical performance to their older black powder cousins, rounds that pushed the same weight bullet at the speed as measured by penetration, yet the smokeless round would rapidly kill the older guns.

What was happening is something we now understand real well: black powder wasn't doing big peak pressure, but it was maintaining the pressure it did have available longer. Smokeless powder was causing a shorter "spike" in pressure.

Colt SAAs of a certain date and forward were rated for smokeless via better metallurgy. This process was repeated across the industry. And a lot of old guns died when fed diets of the new smokeless.

A lower peak pressure also affects how you feel recoil: it's the same push total, but not as much of a "smack", more of a "push" on your hand.

What Tim is basically claiming now is that he's figured out a powder that acts more like the old black powder (broad flat powerband) than the stuff Remington is using. This is not at all impossible, there has been a revolution in powders of late that could net exactly what he's talking about.

Tim won't release his recipes of course :) but a lot of people suspect a powder known as "Lil'gun" is in the mix in some of his goodies :D. Regardless of powder, Tim can brew loads "much closer to the edge without going over" as compared to most handloaders. Tim has (or has access to) pressure-test machines that tell him directly where he's at, that are at present out of the realm of handloaders.

That's why his ammo is worth what he charges - there's a lot of R&D involved.

[Mushinto]

Thanks.
ML

[Sundles]

Jim,

Thanks for helping with that explanation. Just for the record, we do use Lil Gun in only a few of our many loads, but I promise there is no Lil Gun in our 38 SPL ammo. The 38 SPL stuff is loaded with a non canister/comercial only, powder.