Magpul Pmag Problems


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Thin Black Line
March 22, 2007, 11:30 AM
I had problems from the start with the new pmags feeding in my Bushmaster.
This was with both Wolf and Winchester and happened with all three of the
four mags I loaded (I didn't bother trying with the last one). The first round
in each mag would consistently not strip since the nose would smash below
the feed ramp. After I cleared out the first two or three rounds, it would
cycle fine for a while and then the same thing would often happen with the
the 3rd or so last round toward the end. This also happened a couple times
in the middle, but not as consistently.

I don't know if this was a factor, but the mags would wobble a lot. Some
other notes I should make for the THR community was that all firing was
done standing or kneeling --none prone so pressure on the mag from the
bottom was not a factor. The same rifle has functioned with all other makes
of quality mags: aluminum (Bush, Colt, OK, LaBelle, etc), orlite, thermold, etc.
standing, kneeling, prone while monopodding on the mags etc. BTW, I did
not run over any of the mags with a vehicle like the Magpul guys did in their
video.

I did not have a chance to do this at the range, but once I got home I
swapped out the new pmag springs with some very used orlite springs and
manually cycled through 30 rounds of M855 a couple times with each of the
three mags. I had one first round hang-up and a couple of slow strippings,
but it seemed to function better. I'll leave them loaded with the old springs
and try firing again in the next few days or so.

Has anyone else have similar experiences with these mags? Does this just
sound like excessively tight new springs?

Thanks!

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Bartholomew Roberts
March 22, 2007, 11:44 AM
I'd contact Magpul. They have top notch customer service and will want to hear about the problem, even if you solve it yourself, since they are always improving their products.

It could just be there are some contact points in the new mag that haven't worn in yet and the extra friction is creating problems.

Thin Black Line
March 22, 2007, 12:12 PM
This is something that I expected to run without a bug given Magpul's reputation
and viral video marketing of this product.

Another problem for them was that I was out with the county's police firearm
instructor at his range when this happened. We joked about making our own
Youtube video to post alongside Magpul's Pmag Truck video.

But yes, rest assured I will contact Magpul. ;)

Zak Smith
March 22, 2007, 02:20 PM
Definitely contact Magpul. They will be eager to find and address the issue.

Some other local shooters and I have been using these for about a month and have not been able to get them to fail in 10+ guns. I am curious to find out what's going on in your case!

Thin Black Line
March 22, 2007, 03:48 PM
Some other local shooters and I have been using these for about a month and have not been able to get them to fail in 10+ guns.

I haven't seen a single problem reported in any other forum and that's why
I also ordered them. I do have an unintentional "Murphy's Law" effect on
things and yet I don't even try to abuse my equipment. Started way back
with the original Glock17 that came in with the adjustable snappable rear site. :D

If I can run the mags thru a couple other brands of AR15 and/or swap some
uppers if/before I send the mags back, I will certainly post my impressions of
that as well. I can pull out my other bushie (a safequeen m4gery) and cycle
it, but I'd also like to give a friend's RRA a try.

If it's possibly a magwell or feedramp issue with my particular rifle, would
either of you have any suggestions such as a brand with a tighter magwell or
more forgiving feed ramp?

BTW, the rifle was a pre-2004, pre-buyout Bushie.

Gary G23
March 22, 2007, 11:53 PM
"If it's possibly a magwell or feedramp issue with my particular rifle, would
either of you have any suggestions such as a brand with a tighter magwell or
more forgiving feed ramp?"

It sounds to me like M4 feed ramps might solve your problem. All three of my AR's have M4 ramps (LMT, CMMG, Sabre).

I just got my PMAGs today and haven't had a chance to try them out yet.

Redhat
March 22, 2007, 11:56 PM
Did you clean them?

Have you tried adjusting your magazine release?

Gary G23
March 23, 2007, 12:28 AM
Just found this:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=2&f=124&t=154176&page=1
It seems other people are having trouble also.

Thin Black Line
March 23, 2007, 09:41 AM
Gary, the pic on the bottom of page 1 shows what was happening. In some
cases, the round wasn't even angled that high and was literally sliding straight
forward from the mag. When I would pull out a couple rds and "roll" the
remaining rds back into the mag a little with the tip of my thumb, I would
hear the spring "crinkle" and when I would let go the rds would slowly roll back
up against the feed lips. This was why I had leaned toward a spring problem
to begin with, but it would also seem the feed lip cut should be changed ever
so slightly at the factory.

Did you clean them? Have you tried adjusting your magazine release?

The mags came new/as is. I loaded them. They didn't work right from the
start. After the trip to the range, I disassembled them and they were clean
(inside the mag body, follower, spring etc). These did not appear to be the
ones ran over in the Magpul employee parking lot or full of sand from some
distant T&E.

I could give my mag release another turn, but again keep in mind that I've
had no other problems with a vast assortment of other mags that didn't have
major feed lip issues to begin with (bent steel aftermarkets; notched out
orlites, etc). In most cases, those would have loose rounds that would jump
out beause the lips weren't strong enough. The majority of my mags over
the years literally came out of a sealed wrap which were then loaded and
used straight away.

Redhat
March 23, 2007, 07:12 PM
If you unload the mags and take a pencil or other object, then push the follower down then release, do they move smoothly in the body. No burs or anything. Since you switched springs, it sounds to me like the follower may not be moving freely.

Wish you luck with it.

Thin Black Line
March 24, 2007, 11:01 AM
With the springs swapped out for shorter, very used Orlite springs, the Pmags
would manually dry function through the same rifle. When I put in a USGI
spring of approximately the same length as the original Pmag, I had the same
tight and subsequent jam problem. However, in playing around with the
different spring I noticed the type of finish was different with the orlites and
the "curve" of the bends and elbows (sorry, I'm not an engineer) were
different between the USGI and the pmag. Shorter overall length as well as
ease of compression seemed to make the best difference. Again, I could
hear the original spring "crinkle" under pressure and the rds would seem way
too tight prior to cycling problems. The rds would also not freely roll back
towards the top when the mag was mostly full and pushed down with my
thumb both with the original Pmag springs and the replacement springs which
later ended up having the most problems. I went through 10 used orlite springs
to get four that would work better with the Pmags --and one is still a bit iffy
but that was the best I could do with the whole pile. I might have used the
springs from my Canadian mil thermolds, but those worked 100% from the start.
I'm not going to sacrifice those for the pmags, but the orlites were on their
last legs as it is.

BTW, Magpul replied to my email the same day it was received and provided
me with a first name and number for someone to call. I am still awaiting a
return call and will report back their suggestions both to the THR community
and the police trainer who witnessed the pmag failures. He has far less tolerance
for problem mags than I do and considers orlites "use once and throw away" mags.

Redhat
March 24, 2007, 11:30 AM
I dunno,

Sounds like they have some bugs to work out yet. Still, if you switched around all those springs and are still having problems, sounds like the followers have some rough spots. If they stick, I don't see how a different spring could fix it.

You guys get to try all kinds of different stuff, me I'm stuck with what's issued., Colt M4, GI magazines.:D

Thin Black Line
March 24, 2007, 12:00 PM
LOL, but those work and far better than the Center ones I was issued.

DWARREN123
March 24, 2007, 03:12 PM
I would say either spring or follower angle.

Thin Black Line
March 24, 2007, 11:11 PM
Quick update.

All four mags would initially run fine from the first round in the Bushmaster,
but three of the four would have a round jam somewhere in the final 5-10
rds of the mag. In one mag it happened 3 times in the same final 10.

We took two of the most problematic mags and ran them once each through
a new RRA complete factory lower w/ a Model1 16" heavy bbl/chrome bore.
Both mags ran all the way through without a problem.

The mag seemed to wobble just as much in both lowers....so the mystery
deepens.

Redhat
March 24, 2007, 11:34 PM
Maybe the mage catch is too tight, squeezing it?

Thin Black Line
April 6, 2007, 04:38 PM
Another Update:

One mag was modified as per Magpul website:

http://www.magpul.com/movie/pmod.wmv

I ran 30 rds 4 times without a problem this morning through the modified pmag
and the same Bushie.

Note: Range was 23 degrees F and windchill brought it down to about 10F.
I did notice as both the mag and the rds I used to reload went as cold as
the outside, that they did seem a little sluggish in feeding as fast as when
the first loaded mag came warm out of the jeep. In any case, there was
no nose hang-up. BTW, I used ultramax 55g fmj. Will try some wolf next
time around and mod the other mags to increase sample size.

It would have been interesting to see how the pmag would've run had it been
really cold out today --like <0. :cool:

Redhat
April 6, 2007, 08:03 PM
Thanks...interesting

HRT
April 6, 2007, 09:33 PM
Well I expect that I am probably the norm here rather than the exception. My 5 new PMags ran perfectly in a brief range outing today. I do like the dust covers and they fit the mag well on my purpose built stag lower ver well.

illspirit
April 6, 2007, 10:49 PM
BTW, I used ultramax 55g fmj.
Did you happen to try the Ultramax in the unmodified mags too?

I just got a couple of Pmags a week or so ago that haven't been used yet, and a bunch of Ultramax laying around. I'll be a sad panda if the mags don't like the ammo.

Thin Black Line
April 7, 2007, 09:55 AM
Yes. I used Ultramax 55g, Wolf (steel case) 55g, and a little m855 62g
in the mags when they were unmodified. I'm not going to waste much LC on
this and will keep premium ammo for the aluminum mags that have proved
flawless from the beginning.

I also forgot to add on my last update that I continued using the softer old
Israeli orlite spings for yesterday's shoot because the pmag factory springs
still seemed excessively tight --changing the feed area of the mag will not
change this. The mag I used yesterday was the worst offender out of the
original unmod'ed batch, so I'm expecting the others to perform at least as
well.

Given this problem with something as simple as mags, I will not be among the
first people to purchase magpul's new rifle when it comes out next year. I
will let someone else work out the bugs on that one. If there is a problem
with their first run, it would definitely find its way into my hands like other
quirky firearms have over the years and I don't feel like paying $1400 to
provide T&E for magpul......

blackhawk2000
April 7, 2007, 10:03 AM
Just curious, but is Magpul going to change the design to reflect the modification?

Redhat
April 7, 2007, 10:48 AM
I don't want to insult your decision to buy the magpul magazines, but I find it surprising they want folks to grind off part of the feed lips!

I expected to hear them tell you they would exchange the unmodified mags you are having trouble for a set of new modified ones.

Sounds like they expect the customer to fix their problem for them?

illspirit
April 8, 2007, 04:55 AM
Ouch. Thanks for the reply, Thin Black Line. Now if only I had waited for the batch next month with the windows as originally planned. :banghead:

@Redhat and blackhawk2000- Magpul guy somewhere on ar15.com said they've changed the molds to match the fix. He also said you could send them in for an exchange. Not sure if they'll pay for the shipping though.

Gary G23
April 8, 2007, 09:56 AM
You don't grind off part of the feed lips. You grind off the area in front of the feed lips. That is what is causing the rounds to angle inward and hit between the two feed ramps.

Yes Magpul will exchange bodies when the new ones become available. They offer the modification for those that need to get their mags running before then.

I have six PMAGs and they all run great. I used them at a three gun match last weekend.

Redhat
April 8, 2007, 11:17 AM
Gary23,

Okay

gaweidert
April 8, 2007, 01:16 PM
There is an issue with some Olympic Arms lowers and these mags. I don't know if any Bushmaster lowers were made the same way. Here is a link to a thread on the OA2 website.

http://www.oa2.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5962

I had a similiar problem with regular mags on one of my AR's. It was because I had greased the buffer tube spring in order to get rid of the "sprongggg" sound. The grease dried a bit out which resulted in the bolt carrier slowing down and no longer having enough "oomph" to strip rounds form the magazine. Cleaned out all the grease and solved the problem. If you have done this, the PMAG may be just the most sensitive to this sort of scenario.

Thin Black Line
April 8, 2007, 02:02 PM
Magpul guy somewhere on ar15.com said they've changed the molds to match the fix. He also said you could send them in for an exchange. Not sure if they'll pay for the shipping though.

I received this info by email as well. G23 is right in that you don't have to
touch those rear feed lips. I think the video was fairly clear on which area to
hit.

I did not use a dremel, but opted for a couple knives (with the second being
the small swiss army blade :) ), a couple files (flat and oval), and some super
duper extra fine sandpaper for final polishing. If you've done any wood carving
projects, these mags will feel very similar and are quite easy. I did smooth
out the final "curves" of the feed lips where they met the slab slides of the
mag. I left the center column that's between the bullet noses of a loaded
mag but made sure the plastic was even with the inside walls of the mags
on both sides of the bullets. This way the tail end of the cartridge when it
gets stripped isn't going to drag on it.

There are a couple other adjustments I made to the mag not on the video
that are hard to explain and I want to finish my own testing with all 4 mags
and a larger assortment of rifles before I comment further. I'd also like to
have the local trainer run them full auto since I don't own an M4. I have
no doubt that M4 feed ramps will help anyway, but the "stickiness" on semi
auto might display some odd behavior (or not) on full.

At this point, I'm not interested in paying shipping back to magpul. The mags
with the mods as exactly per the video, with original factory springs in my
rifle left out on the local frozen tundra would IMHO still most likely fail. However,
I really am interested in making the mags work in the the odd 1% situation
we have.

Maybe magpul will send me an SASE for one of my mags when I have it running
perfectly --I'd be willing to make an even trade, LOL ;)

illspirit
April 8, 2007, 04:09 PM
Meh. My Oly lower has the same rear mag well bevel (or lack thereof) as the one in the link. Didn't bothered to test for fit yet thinking I could just do that along with a function check at the range. Now I feel like a moron. :(

Thin Black Line
April 9, 2007, 11:26 AM
My bushie has the bevel.

7kopper
April 12, 2007, 04:33 PM
Hello, new guy here. I'm a Magpul rep and want to pop in and clarify a few things.

About 90% of PMAG customers are having no problems with the PMAG. That said, the mod that was posted for the PMAG was due to a lot of guys not wanting to wait for production mags. This is a quick fix to cater to those guys. In some cases the fix does not work. This is due to the vast number of configurations that the AR platform has (in house testing was done on about 40 AR configurations). Magpul in no way expects our customers to fix our products, this is a temporary solution. We will accept both altered and unaltered preproduction PMAG's for a one to one exchange for production PMAG's here in about two weeks.

Hope this helps clarify a little.

RIDE
April 12, 2007, 04:40 PM
Magpul is awesome!!!

Thanks for the info 7kopper.


I have 4 Pmags that have run about 400 rounds through my Sig 556... Never a problem!!! The best mags I have used bar-none. Great product IMO.

I can't wait for some of the upcoming Pmags... Window, and clear!!! :D:D:D

itgoesboom
April 12, 2007, 05:21 PM
Only problem I have had with my PMags are when I am dry firing, and I short stroke the charging handle.

They feed everything else fine.

I have had one jam with a reload, but I think that was because I was a little overpressure. Bolt really seemed to be moving, maybe a little too fast......:eek:

Thin Black Line
April 12, 2007, 06:58 PM
That said, the mod that was posted for the PMAG was due to a lot of guys not wanting to wait for production mags.

And, that said, I bought mine retail and was therefore expecting nothing less
than a finished fully-tested production mag that would work in a rifle that seemed
to work with every other brand out there. There was nothing I saw explaining that
they were limited release, pre-production, prototypes, etc.

In any case good to know you will 100% replace them with a 100% working
product. If I go that route, I can assure you, you'll get your original springs
back as well ;)

I've been shooting AK this week, so nothing new to report on the pmag.....
any plans to do an AK, G3, FAL version of the pmag? Surely, you would want
me to test your prototypes in the future before you do another release? :D

Thin Black Line
April 27, 2007, 10:35 AM
I finally got back around to using the PMAGs post modification as per the
magpul video. I had gone back to the factory springs and left all 4 mags
loaded up with wolf HPs for a few days. Although there had seemed to be
some improvement with the rds rolling back in the mag under thumb pressure,
3 of 4 all had the first round go nose first below the feed ramp area with an
unsatisfying dull "thunk". However, one mag had no problem with digesting
everything I put through it. Of the three mags, two had problems feeding SS109
steel core bullets for the first and second rounds. One pushed a bullet down
into the case and another smashed a cartridge against the feed ramps bending
the case severely. If I only loaded the mags with 28 or fewer rounds they
then fed better with either type of round (HP or SS109). Just to be fair, the
HPs had problems with feeding in 1 out of 3 used orlites that I had left loaded
for a few weeks causing the feed lips to start spreading out --was evern hard
to insert into the rifle. There was no spread with the PMAGs.

The tolerances on these PMAGs are very finicky. It's amazing how the slight
variation in my grinding of the four produced one that worked time after time
and three others that were sporadic. I didn't have any 55g fmjs on hand, but
will see if that makes any difference in the future. The SS109 bullets were
very long (almost didn't fit in this mag or the orlites) and the wolf HPs were
fairly short. Going back to the used orlite springs rather than PMAGs probably
would have improved things as well, but this wasn't the fix recommended in
their video. ;)

I have a feeling these would have still functioned well in my aforementioned
friend's AR15. However, the "fix" as recommended on the website did not solve
my problem. IMHO, going back to a feed area that looks like the common USGI
aluminum style would help a lot. Not being an engineer, though, I would wonder
if this would affect their durability versus trucks running over them repeatedly.

Here's a thought: sacrifice a couple tons of truck pressure for a more universal feed :)

Well, back to the AK for a while now......

7kopper
May 1, 2007, 11:43 AM
This link should answer everyones Q's. I'll be able to answer your Q's if there are any not covered in the link. Exchanges will begin to ship on May 7th.

EXCHANGE (http://www.magpul.com/pdfs/pmagexchange.pdf)

As a side note, the 04/07 PMAG’s are going to be released to dealers around mid May. We did a significant amount of testing in and out-of-house. A large # of the out-of-house testers for the 04/07 PMAG’s were guys that had malfunctions with the 03/07 PMAG’s. The 04/07 PMAG had zero malfunctions with over 30 out-of-house testers, all using multiple rifles and ammunition in addition to 20+ in-house rifles and multiple ammo with a total of approximately 28,000 rounds. Shoot the PMAG with confidence!


Black non-windowed
Flat Dark Earth non-windowed (start production in 3 weeks)
Olive Drab non-windowed (start production in 5 weeks)
Foliage Green non-windowed (start production in 7 weeks)
Black windowed (start production in 8 weeks)
Flat Dark Earth windowed (start production in 9 weeks)
Olive Drab windowed (start production in 10 weeks)
Foliage Green windowed (start production in 11 weeks)

TPD (smoked) mags are sill undergoing testing and release date is unknown. Release may fall somewhere in the above schedule but also may be 12 weeks out. All of the figures above are ESTIAMTES! I know there are going to be a lot of guys asking when so there you go.

Correia
May 1, 2007, 01:51 PM
Cool. My shop placed an order for a bunch of these. I'm looking forward to having them.

I tried like crazy to break one at SHOT. Went hog wild jumping up and down on it (and I weigh 310) and the Magpul guy just kept egging me on, "Come on big guy! You can break it! Show that mag who's boss!" Didn't even phase the damn thing. :)

As for them not working right out of the gate, having been around that rodeo once myself (Saiga .308 20 rounders), designing a mag ain't easy. It takes lots of time and testing, and even then, there are going to be some guns with measurements on the outside edges of the bell curve, where the mag just isn't going to work right.

salty
December 21, 2007, 08:57 AM
TBL - How about a followup - are you satisfied with how Magpul treated you or are you still having problems. My mags have all been running fine.

newsavageowner
December 21, 2007, 10:06 AM
What were the manufacture dates on your PMags that gave you trouble? The date can be found on one side of the mag, it's a small circle with the year # in the middle (like 07), and and arrow (similar to a clock's arm) pointing to a number on the outside of the circle for the month.

Oohrah
December 22, 2007, 03:13 AM
Did you try running the mag with 28 rounds instead of the 30. I always
load two rounds less than capacity to ensure a first round pick up.:)

Bartholomew Roberts
December 22, 2007, 11:44 AM
Did you try running the mag with 28 rounds instead of the 30. I always load two rounds less than capacity to ensure a first round pick up

The PMAG body is a touch longer so you can actually load 30 rounds and still seat it with a closed bolt. In fact, if you aren't careful you can load it with 31 rounds and create first round feed problems.

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