Well here's a twist: how do you check 6 while helping an epileptic in mid-seizure?

[Jim March]

Given that I've got mechanical problems on my bike at the moment, I was reduced to taking the bus today. I was sitting on the bench with a lady, and an older guy around 45 was standing a few feet away. The lady calls out "look!" and points, and the guy is curled up on the ground having a seizure.

Oh heck. Rush over, and the first problem is that he's face-down and bashing his head on the concrete. That can't be good. I rolled him over onto his side and supported his head and upper body; he was breathing but with a lot of froth and saliva he was barely getting enough air. I tried keeping his airway as straight as I could...I also noticed his blood pressure was spiking, as the veins in his temple were seriously bulged and his face was beet red.

At peak, about six other people were near, none directly helping me control the guy. One younger guy on a bicycle had a cellphone and got on 911...paramedics and an ambulance took maybe 10 minutes.

None of the bystanders did anything unsociable like make a try for the guy's wallet. Thank God. Would have been tricky as hell dealing with that. It also made me glad I tend to deep-conceal my cutlery; due to it being IWB behind the right hip, it would have been open to a grab in my bent-over state except that it was tucked and probably escaped notice.

Just goes to show, you don't always have a choice about your position and vulnerability...in that case, concealed really pays off as it reduces the temptation for some low-life to "take advantage".

Ummm...tactically speaking, yes, perhaps I could have let him keep dribbling his skull on the sidewalk but...sigh. I'm not wired that way. Ain't gonna apologize.

As to the victim: the spell had faded in the ambulance, but as he came out of it he was struggling and combative (but too weak to pose a real threat). The parameds explained that this was typical...they also said I did about as much as anybody could have, which helped. Still shook the heck outta me...I've never seen anything like that. They took him off to a hospital.

[sm]

Sounds to me you did the right thing--good!
You may have the answer of good concealment being the best way to watch six in a situation like that. Good thought for all to consider when making choices on gear and such.

[Cal4D4]

Watch out for the skinny ones Jim, seizures can be related to health problems other than epilepsy. Gran mal epileptic seizures are dramatic way outa proportion to health risk. Late term HIV people (as well as Hep-C and such) can do it too. Just don't drink their blood or kiss them unnecessarily. If you win a knife fight, don't eat their liver (remember Liver eatin' Johnson, the mountain man?) Sorry about the bike, bad luck and trouble seem to be your only friends.

[Jim March]

As to the bike, I blew my rear tire at 80mph on the freeway Saturday. Hit some piece of scrap steel. Managed to limp it across four lanes to the shoulder and slow it down to about 20mph while the rear end was wigglin' back and forth about two feet. Did I mention the dense traffic that would have rendered me roadkill if I'd dumped it? Jeeeez. Anyways, I ended up running it into a bush :). Better choice than the retaining wall or the sign :rolleyes:. Bruised groin muscles and a sore elbow but I walked away :D.

Some of the best driving I've ever done.

Aaaanyways. I may be on the dang bus, but at least I'm alive :eek:. No complaints...plus hey, at least I ain't an epileptic.

[sm]

Glad your ok Jim, darn ,bet nobody got you on video. Best driving and all. Bike ok?

[Jim March]

No. It's pretty screwed up. Damaged rear rim, seems bent on the front end too. :(

That's OK. At least I just landed decent work I can get to by bus. A month of that, and I'll get something else.

[Cal4D4]

Worst I've ever had was a hubcap at 80. Hit me flat like a plate in the chest. Friend blew a tire on a big old Suzuki at 120, cartwheeled to a stop and walked away. Glad reflexes and luck kicked in for you. Heed warnings about people with seizures, don't need to acquire health risks. Current EMTs and such can get a $5K "morning after" shot if they get needle stuck or must mouth to mouth. You and I get no such thing.

Tried to reply last night, but server musta went south on the SoCal connection.

[sm]

Jim-sorry to hear it got banged up. Dang gray clouds just don't leave some people alone.

Bus: I'm sure watching six can be of interest to us all on such conveyances...maybe something positive will come of this whole ordeal.

[MLH]

Can you peddle 80 mph?:confused:

Oh, I think......I see.:o :D :rolleyes:

[KMKeller]

MLH - I had the same initial reaction... don't I feel foolish.:o

[GinSlinger]

I had a friend who went to WestPoint. Those guys would take off to the big NYC whenever possible. He related a story of on of his classmates getting mugged when aiding an "epeleptic". Seems that it is a MO of some teams of muggers to have one member pose as having health troubles (the more violent the better) and the other members rushing in when an innocent stops to give aid. Watching Six would seem to be a must in giving aid. Definitely a condition Orange.

GinSlinger

P.S. The conversation with my friend came up when we were flipping channels and came across an episode of NYPD Blue that had the exact same senario. Must be a rather common MO.

[ahenry]

Sometimes doing the right thing puts your personal safety at risk. Glad you did the right thing, and I’m glad you didn’t wind up “at risk” yourself. Next time you might be unlucky. Don’t let that change your decision to help. Good people are too hard to come by. Best you could do is try to pay as close attention as you can while helping. While you're taking control of the situation and ordering people around (you did take control and tell a specific person to call 911 didn't you) you have a decent opportunity to check things out. No guarantees though.

[daorhgih]

Develop the attitude -- mind-set, really -- of ALWAYS KEEPING IN MOTION. Never allow a blind 6-spot to develop. Been there and used fire-power. ML

[Mannlicher]

I guess that there are times when you just have to depend on the kindness of strangers. :rolleyes:

[BullfrogKen]

I'm glad you helped. Had you subscribed to the mindset, "if the guy's not on my short-list, he's on his own", this person might have been much worse off by the time someone responded.

If you've got a group around, involve them. If you're by yourself, you are on your own. All any of us can do is what our personal moral code demands. I'd like to think I'm not so callous as to abandon someone who I can clearly tell is a decent person in distress.

[Mandirigma]

If you've got a group around, involve them.

Only thing I've got to add is be specific. Not "Someone call 911" but rather "You in the blue shirt call 911."

Sometimes it just takes one person instructing someone specifically to get the others to start to respond.

[johndoe1027]

Sounds like you did a fine job. I had to help a co-worker through an epileptic seizure once. He does not have HIV, he's not a mugger or has a drug habit, he has epilepsy. I knew that before the seizure though so my situation was totally different. Worst day at work I've ever had.

Thanks for helping him. He probably doesn't remember it but I'm sure he's immensely appreciative anyway.

[geronimotwo]

nice job. i had a similar situation just south of oakland ca where a lady slipped and fell, hitting her head. she appeared to be out cold. after the paramedics were attending to her i realized my walkman was missing. the whole thing could have been a setup, but i still feel i would do the same thing if a person were in trouble. btw, this was when walkman's were actually still valuable.

[ExSoldier]

You did fine. I've had kids in my classrooms go either Grand Mal or Petit Mal and I've been trained to deal with it. There's not much to do beyond insuring they don't choke on their own fluids and keeping that head from smackin' concrete. I was taught to let them rest the head on the front of your shoe as a quasi-pillow. Should work fine unless you've got steel toed boots. But in doing that you have a chance to check your six and also stay balanced in case it's something more than a seizure. I also like the idea of involving the crowd specifically... IF they'll cooperate! A lot of folks are spectators but don't want to "get involved." So if you direct somebody to do something you must follow up and make sure that it's been done or is "in process."

[skidmark]

I was sitting on the bench with a lady, and an older guy around 45 was standing a few feet away. The lady calls out "look!" and points, and the guy is curled up on the ground having a seizure.

Oh heck. Rush over, and the first problem is that he's face-down and bashing his head on the concrete. That can't be good. I rolled him over onto his side and supported his head and upper body

Could you ave positioned yourself so your back was covered by the bus bench? Not only does it protect you, it moves the victim out of the middle of foot traffic.

Just a random thought.

stay safe.

skidmark

[Len S]

I am a paramedic. There is not much you can do. Most of the time seizures are over before we get there. Impossible to give the proper aid and watch your back. While it is important to TRY keep their a airway clear your first and most important duty is to yourself. You noticed blood in his mouth, it is not uncommon for people to bite their lips, cheek, and or tongue. They will not, repeat NOT swallow their tongue. You HAVE to keep your hands away from their mouth. You can tilt the head, and let the mouth drain if there is no sign of neck injury, and even if there is , ABC=AIRWAY, Breathing, circulation. BUT KEEP YOUR HANDS CLEAR. Getting bit is a real possibility. Losing fingers or getting one of the hep alphabet,or HIV. Losing a finger, just think about it,to clear a air way you would use your strong hand and probably your index (trigger) finger OOPS. You can get a disease and you may or may not be notified and maybe pass to your family. As EMS we will get called but who would have your name? Impossible to watch for outside trouble. Concentrate on the patients safety AND your own in relation to the patient.


Len

[XDKingslayer]

I won't comment on your tactics, but I will comment on your first aid attempt. My father has had epilepsy for about 30 years. It's something that was the result of an accident.

You didn't do as good as most people here are leading you to believe. If a person is having a grand mal seizure, the last thing you should do is get near them. If they are flailing around you can be seriously hurt and hurt them even more. You should move everything possible out of their way, but stay away from them.

I watched my father's flailing throw 2 guys trying to help across a room and knock a third out cold.