The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle


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BusMaster007
June 11, 2003, 03:37 AM
A while back there was great interest on the board concerning a 'Tactical' lever gun.
I contacted Gabriel Suarez of Suarez Int'l. about an article he'd had on this subject.
He dug it up and put it on his site.
If he finds the photo of it, too, that'd be excellent!
Meanwhile, here's the link to the article for us to enjoy:

http://www.suarezinternational.com/leveraction.html

:D

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Skunkabilly
June 11, 2003, 03:41 AM
http://www.ashleyoutdoors.com/images/scope_mounts_3.jpg
http://www.ashleyoutdoors.com/images/scope_mounts_1.jpg

Bob
June 11, 2003, 05:14 AM
That's a good article. Of late, I have been thinking of selling off some of my mil surp guns and getting more levers. Partly because I have shared the writer's view and mostly because I find myself having more (alot more) fun with levers lately.
At close range, a 44mag Trapper is a force to contend with. And darn cheap to shoot if you load your own.
Bob

Al Norris
June 11, 2003, 11:52 AM
Good article! I said something along those lines a couple of years ago at TFL and some other gun boards....and was laughed at.

Nice to be vindicated. :neener:

CMcDermott
June 11, 2003, 12:48 PM
Only problem lever guns have tactically is working the lever from the prone position. Being able to "top off" the tube magazine with the rifle ready to fire is an advantage over box magazine rifles that makes up for the relative slowness of a complete reload. Having to use flat point bullets is actually an advantage as they hit harder than spitzer FMJ at the relatively short range (<200 yds) a tatical rifle is meant to be used and the high trajectory is a problem only at relatively long ranges (>200 yds). They are lightweight (6-7 lbs) and have a low "PC threatening coefficient" compared to most "black" rifles.

Skunkabilly
June 11, 2003, 12:54 PM
A SWAT Magazine article early this year, or last December's had a section on Ashley Emerson at Thunder Ranch with one. One of the captions read "You might be a redneck if...." :D

Omaha-BeenGlockin
June 11, 2003, 01:02 PM
I have and enjoy lever actions---BUT as an offensive tactical weapon ---DREAM ON.

It would be good for defensive purposes---from behind cover---but that's about it. While you are cranking that lever or trying to stuff more rounds in that mini 6-round magazine----someone with an AR or AK will simply be sending more lead your way.

The point was made about low cost--if that's all you can afford---ya use what ya brung----but there are MUCH better choices out there.

Cosmoline
June 11, 2003, 01:48 PM
For home defense, I'd go with a good levergun over a pistol or revolver any day. The levergun, whether .30-30 or a .44 Mag., is handier than a bolt action hunting or C&R rifle and far more accurate and potent than most handguns. It's also easy to cope with at three AM. And the sight of it doesn't tend to prompt the LEO's to call in the SWAT team quite so quickly.

Obviously, it's not a good military front-line rifle. But I'd rather have a Marlin 1894P than a 1911 any day of the week.

Andrew Wyatt
June 11, 2003, 03:54 PM
It would be good for defensive purposes---from behind cover---but that's about it. While you are cranking that lever or trying to stuff more rounds in that mini 6-round magazine----someone with an AR or AK will simply be sending more lead your way.


1. if you need more than six rounds and there are fewer than 5 bad guys, you're doing something wrong.

2. working the lever is just as fast as a semi auto because you don't disrupt your sight picture any more than recoil does.

3. a 30-30 has way fewer protuberences than an MP5, or M4 does.

Nightcrawler
June 11, 2003, 04:00 PM
Omaha- would you say that pump and semiauto shotguns are not "tactically" viable combat weapons? They too have tube magazines that hold from four to eight rounds. They too require the shoot-one, reload-one method of operation and many are manually operated.

However, very few people will suggest that the 12 gauge shotgun is anything but an excellent close quarters battle weapon, regardless of what weapons your enemy is packing.

Skunkabilly
June 11, 2003, 04:04 PM
Can you load the lever action from the left hand so you can keep the thing scanning for bad guys and shoot if need be?

Nightcrawler
June 11, 2003, 04:06 PM
I can. But of course, I'm left handed. Most lever guns have the loading gate on the right side of the receiver. A true "tactical" lever rifle would have an ambidextrious one mounted on the bottom, I would think, but the loading gate as is can work fine with a little practice.

Correia
June 11, 2003, 04:07 PM
I've met Ashley. Him and his lever action are on my list of people never to get into a gunfight against. :)

Great guy by the way. And a good article in SWAT if you can find it.

BigG
June 11, 2003, 05:20 PM
Some flat black Krylon on the wood would make that lever gun Ueber-tactical! :cool:

Detachment Charlie
June 11, 2003, 08:19 PM
Glad to see I wasn't too goofy when I posted that was thinkin' of a "thutty-thutty" as the ultimate "Apalachian Assault Rifle.":neener:

Face it, we're dealing with people who have absolutely no understanding of firearms or the 2nd Amendment. If it's black it's evil. Bayonet lugs only lead to many, many more drive-by bayonetings. Equipped for a grenade launcher? OMG!!! Hundreds more convenience stores will have their Squishy Machines blown all to h*ll before the bad guys grab the cigarettes (the evil things) and instant lottery tickets (instruments of the devil). As for the pistol grips...wellllll, no normal American needs those wicked things.
But a lever action carbine in the hands of John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Hop-a-Long Cassidy, Hoot Gibson, and Evil Roy Slade helped win the West and kept Americans free from Bad Guys. It's American. And, it'll drop Bambi's mom dead in her tracks. So what's not to love?:D

Mannlicher
June 11, 2003, 10:11 PM
There is nothing wrong with a 30/30 as a defensive weapon, for the first magazine anyway. Certainly it is a good choice if you are SURE that your opponant shows up with one too. Slow reloading is not an asset, neither is the loss of sight picture when levering in the next round. Expensive ammo does not help the cause.

I have toted around a lever gun, 30/30, .357 or .44 for years in the truck. When I do, I also have an SKS, just in case things really go south.

There is a reason why no major law enforcement, or military entities issue a lever gun these days. The lever gun had it's day back in the late 1800's. There are better choices today.

Gabe's article has some serious errors also, like saying the Duke had two rifles when he taunted and rode toward Ned Pepper.

Nightcrawler
June 11, 2003, 10:52 PM
neither is the loss of sight picture when levering in the next round.

You know, if you keep the stock in your shoulder when you work the action, you don't lose the sight picture.

AGAIN, the method of operation of the lever rifle has no more shortcomings than that of a pump shotgun. If the pump shotgun is an effective weapon despite it's limited capacity and manual operation, then so is the lever rifle. The two have nearly identical manuals of arms.

David4516
June 12, 2003, 04:23 AM
Aside from semi-autos, I don't think anything is faster than a lever gun. I know I can work a lever faster than a bolt to a pump. I also find it easyer to keep my sight picture with the lever gun.

I don't know about the .30-30 for defese though. Maybe if you live out in the middle of nowhere. But I'd rather have one in .357 or .44 Mag because it is less likely to go thur alot of walls.

I think a lever action shotgun would be awsome. Only one I've ever seen was the one Arnold had in Terminator 2. Does anyone make such a shotgun? I know there is a model 94 that shoots .410 shot-shells, but I'd want at least a 20 ga

foghornl
June 12, 2003, 09:21 AM
Tactical .30-30..

Ah, yes...the Ozark Mountain Assault Rifle......:evil:

Or the Smoky Mountain Machine Gun.....:evil:

With most of my mis-spent youth used up in both Ark & TN, I can say those things...

MrAcheson
June 12, 2003, 11:22 AM
Ahnold carried a winchester 1887 in 12 guage in T2. There has been talk of companies making reproductions of this JMB designed gun for the cowboy crowd, but none have shown up as yet. Norinco made an initial test run, but after the import ban I doubt we'll see that for a few years. Its too bad because their guns were supposed to be cheap at around $400. Tristar has had one coming out for a long while now, but its moving like a herd of turtles and will be expensive ($1000+). The originals are less that expensive ($800ish), but really shouldn't be fired with anything other than black powder.

MrAcheson
June 12, 2003, 11:24 AM
Second the .357 lever gun over the .30-30. Twice the magazine capacity for very little performance losses if you use hot .357s like the GA deerstoppers.

Glamdring
June 12, 2003, 04:03 PM
The lever is weak for miltary use. Since it isn't able to provide suppresive fire.

For one or two non miltary people (LEO or not) I would have to agree with others in that it is as viable as pump shot gun.

Mall Ninja concerns aside. Your not going to be shooting dozens of rounds anywhere but the range or for plinking. Legally your responsable for every shot you fire even when shooting in self defense. So 6 to 10 rounds will be plenty. Specially if you carry a few spares on a but cuff.

In what situation, that a civilian might face where they could legally use a rifle, will a lever gun fail? How exactly would an AR, AK, SKS, or M1a help them in that situation?

IMHO the 44 mag is best choice, I think it has better terminal ballistics at realistic self defense ranges than 30-30 or 357. The 35 Rem would be my second choice for caliber based on so called stopping power.

Remember Police SNIPERS seldom take shots at even 100 yards. And if you think about it you have to admit Police riflemen are going to have legal justification for longer range shots than the rest of us. If they are containing a goblin they might need to make a long shot. About the only way the rest of us would be in that situation is if we were assisting LEO like happened with the Whitman incident.

The rest of us would have a difficult time proving that someone 100 yards away was an IMMEDIATE lethal threat.

At least in my state you need all four of the following to legally use lethal force: 1) Must be reluctant participant 2) Reasonably in immediate fear 3) No lesser force will serve 4) Retreat is not possible.

(edited for Spelling)

Atticus
June 12, 2003, 04:55 PM
I'd like to know where he's buying these for $100 (or the one with a 4x Leupold on it for $200). Hmmmm. Otherwise, I agree with the concept. I love my 336's in .44 and .35.

David4516
June 13, 2003, 01:05 AM
I agree with Glamdring. I can't think of many situations were an AK would be any better than my Model 94. If I need an AK, I probably shouldn't be there in the first place...

Glamdring is the name of Gandolfs sword in LOTR right?

Glamdring
June 13, 2003, 03:40 AM
David4516: Yes, he finds it in The Hobbit. Sword made by elves for fighting goblins. Supposed to mean Foe Hammer.

Dave McCracken
June 13, 2003, 06:51 AM
Ladies and Gentlemen, my $0.02...

In the long gone days on my youth, I got to play with a Winchester 73 in 44-40, a saddle ring carbine of venerable age and little bluing. For fast work inside 50 yards, it was terrific. I knew how to work it from the shoulder before puberty kicked in.

Later there was a Marlin 44 mag, same deal. Even the glitch-cursed 45-70 Marlin I had briefly was fast handling (when it worked at all), though recoil was stout.

In the mid 80s I bought a 94 in 30-30, sold it when the elder Bush banned "Assault weapons" to get a SKS, which I tweaked to a 3-4" shooter at 100 yards(Trigger job, glass bedding, teflon taped gas tube,peep sight) with a 30 round magazine. Sold it after getting another 94 when I decides ChiCom stuff had no place in Casa McC. I did try some fast short range COFs side by side. For 5 shots, scores were identical and times were less than 1 second faster with the auto. More practice would cancel that, IMO.

Now my HBAR (Hill Billy Assault Rifle) is a fast handling, reasonably accurate tool for handling anything out to 200 yards, works for deer, and causes less Angst for non-shooters than an EBR. With trigger job, sling studs and peep sight, it still came in under $225. Not so great for repelling hordes of enemies, but I do not have hordes of enemies. In cases of civil disorder, it'll neutralize the first 6 or so in very short order, and I doubt suppressive fire here in the 'burbs will be needed very much.

FWIW, one local shooting club holds 30-30 matches, with 40 shots fired offhand at steel targets 200 yards away. Some possibles get fired.

Rules state any rifle chambered in 30-30 and using non optical sights is kosher.

As for the pistol caliber carbines, great fun lots of utility and a good way to start off newbies.

Mannlicher
June 13, 2003, 10:53 PM
Nightcrawler opines: , the method of operation of the lever rifle has no more shortcomings than that of a pump shotgun. If the pump shotgun is an effective weapon despite it's limited capacity and manual operation, then so is the lever rifle. The two have nearly identical manuals of arms."

With the pump shotguns I have, pulling back the pump does not change your point of aim. Working the lever on a lever gun tends to pull the rifle butt down. Maybe I am doing it wrong. I cannot though for the life of me understand how the 'manual of arms' is nearly identical. My shotguns load from below, my lever guns load from the side. pump guns can be fired prone with no problems, lever guns, well its different. Shotguns and lever rifles have much different effective ranges, and accuracy potentials.

I might add, no Army issues shotguns as the main battle weapon, just as no army issues a lever gun. Same reasons to a large extent, so I guess I do see some similarity after all.

having rambled on there for a bit, don't get me wrong. Lever guns are fun, and darn effective. The last 6 deer I have taken were all with a marlin 1894S. All one shot kills. I prefer this rifle to all others for hunting in heavy North Florida cover.

I would NOT take one to Baghdad though.

JShirley
June 14, 2003, 01:56 AM
Lever guns were used as battle rifles, by the...Turks, I believe?

Anyway, Marlin now has a short li'l carbine coming out in thutty-thutty. Made for young shooters, I believe the short barrel and stock will make it ideal for ranch rifle/home defense type work, when teamed with a good peep sight.

I believe a lever gun is a much better defensive piece than a dedicated mil type gun.

John

Aikibiker
June 14, 2003, 04:21 AM
This gentleman seems to think it is a good alternative.

Reloading the lever action rifle (http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2144)

He also has some thoughts on using long guns while going around corners.

ECQ with the carbine and off hand use (http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2076)

Just for fun some room clearing with a pistol. (It's good stuff to think on)

Corridor Movement and Managing Danger Areas (http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1703)

I don't have much opinion on the matter as I have never shot a lever gun, but I want to after reading this thread.

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
June 14, 2003, 05:23 AM
Glamdring, I hate to disagree but there are lots of deceased Russians that would admit the superiority of lever action Winchesters in the hands of Turks over their single-shot Krnka rifles. The Turks first engaged the Russians with Martini-Peabody rifles then switched over to Winchester M1866 rifles and decimated the Russian-Romanian combined cavalry and infantry at Plevna in 1877.



http://www.militaryrifles.com/Turkey/Plevna/ThePlevnaDelay.html

Never underestimate a determined defender trained with adequate tools.

Regards,
Rabbit.

David4516
June 14, 2003, 06:30 AM
"...I have never shot a lever gun..."

You should really do something about that...

If you're looking for a good lever action I can recomend the Winchester Model 94. My grandmother gave me a model 94 when I was a kid, and I love it. Its an older one, I think it was made in the early 50s. But is still looks, and shoots, great.

I know there are alot of marlin fans here, but I think the winchester is a little less bulky and cumbersome. Also, alot of the Marlin .30-30s have a curved pistol grip, and I prefer the strait grip. The only real advantage to the Marlin in my opinion is that it is alot less of a hassel to mount a scope on one (the marlin has side-eject, the winchester ejects from the top). But I dont' really see that advantage of puting a scope on a lever gun. At lever-gun ranges (100 yards or less), the iron sights will work just as good as a scope, and are faster (or at least they are for me). And you don't have to worry about fog :)

I'm sure lots of you will not agree with me, and thats fine. But for me, with what I want a lever gun for, the Winchester model 94 is the better gun...

ScottS
June 14, 2003, 10:13 AM
I would NOT take one to Baghdad though.

You going to Baghdad? Neither is anyone here. I don't think anyone is advocating replacing the M4 in US Army service with a Win 94. I think the thread has more to do with using a lever-action rifle as a truck/utility/home defense rifle.

You could have a "phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range" in Baghdad, and if you're by yourself, you ain't going to make it.

Scott

hksw
June 14, 2003, 10:56 AM
Some flat black Krylon on the wood would make that lever gun Ueber-tactical!

You mean like this?
http://www.brockmansrifles.com/Images/mguide.jpg
http://www.brockmansrifles.com/m_guide.asp

Brockman Lever Actions (http://www.brockmansrifles.com/lever_action.asp)

Legionnaire
June 14, 2003, 05:40 PM
:D

Nightcrawler
June 14, 2003, 06:11 PM
I stand by my statement. The manual of arms is practically identical. Note the use of modifiers such as "practically" and "virtually".

Both need to be reloaded one round at a time into an underbarrel tubular magazine. The placement of the loading gate matters very little to me.

Both are best kept in action by the "shoot one, reload one" method.

Both can be reloaded by opening the action and dropping one in the chamber, then loading the magazine.

Both are manually operated.

Virtually identical.

No one here suggested replacing any military arms with lever rifles.

But I fail to see how that at all has anything to do with its utility to us. A lever gun is good enough for any situation a civilian in nice, peaceful, stable America is likely to encounter, from armed assailants to attacking animals.

I believe that a lever rifle, in .30-30 or .35 Rem, equipped with synthetic stocks and peep sights, would be a perfectly acceptable patrol rifle for the majority of police departments in the country.

444
June 14, 2003, 09:33 PM
There would be very few circumstances where I would prefer a lever action to my AR15. None that I can think of right off the top of my head. I guess if I lived in a place where you encounted large animals or something, having a larger bore rifle might be an advantage, but I don't. Note that in almost every post something similar to; it is almost as good, or-as civilians we probably won't need to do ____ . In other words the semi-auto, military style rifle does it all, and the lever action is a close second.

Yes, I own a number of lever acitons. I have a Marlin in .357, I have a pre-64 Winchester 94 in .30-30 and I have a Marlin in .444 set up just like those pictures on the second post of the thread with AO Ghost Rings sights, an AO lever scout scope mount, and a Leupold Scout Scope. I like lever actions. I enjoy shooting lever actions. I think lever actions are a great utility rifle. But for a "Tacitical Rifle" I am not fooling myself. Would it work ? Sure. Would it probably get you by in any prabable sitution ? Sure. But it isn't the equal of a semi-auto for the kind of stuff we are discussing.

Sir Galahad
June 14, 2003, 10:09 PM
IIRC, some segents of the Imperial Russian army used Winchester lever actions that had box magazines (1895s?) and were made in 7.62x54 PERHAPS. I believe this was to augment the Mosins. From Military Classics magazine was a story that the British Royal Navy used Winchesters as boarding party weapons. That the U.S. Army never issued Winchesters to its men after documented success of repeating weapons (the Henry---"that Yankee rifle loaded on Sunday and fired all weeK"--and the Spencer---"that Yankee shot tower") in the Civil War is a dog that nips at its heels today and first fomented allegations of the U.S. Army arming its soldiers with inferior weaponry that has resurfaced into discussion of the early M-16s. While the .45/70 had longer range, the cavalry really had no need of such "range" and repeating weapons might have allowed Custer to hold out a bit longer, perhaps even survive. Alas, we shall never know. But we do know that the folks Custer faced had Winchesters.

Many folks are in states where they cannot get semi-autos that other folks enjoy access to. In such cases, the lever action is an excellent choice. The .30-30 is so common, it can be found in gas stations and grocery stores in rural areas. This is a decided advantage in many cases. The pistol caliber carbines are a boon to any pistol and make ammo a snap. More so with a .35 carbine that feeds .38 Special reliably as that increases the mobility of the weapon as far as supply go because those same gas stations IF they carry pistol ammo, are going to have .38 Special. It's pretty much a given that all over the U.S., no matter where you go, you are going to find .22LR, 12 gauge, .30-30, and .38 Special. With a combination of weapons that chamber any of those 4, you are ready to rock anywhere, anytime. Most cities and town do carry 9mm, .223, .308, .30-06 and 7.62x39, so this isn't the logistics issue it once was. But, when you can't own a semi, a lever will save the day and put the bacon on the table.

David4516
June 15, 2003, 12:35 AM
"But it isn't the equal of a semi-auto for the kind of stuff we are discussing"

There are 2 advantages I can think of that the lever has over the semi-auto:

#1: Cost. Most semi-autos will cost twice as much

#2: Reliablity. Has anyone ever seen a lever-gun "jam"? I haven't...

444
June 15, 2003, 01:05 AM
For me, cost isn't an issue. I already own both along with a couple other things, so the issue is making a choice.

Yes, I have seen a lever action jam. And I have seen them break. And I have seen them malfunction.

Now that I think about it, I have a fourth lever action; Winchester 94 Trapper in .45 Colt. The realitively flat, silver metal piece that guides rounds from the tube, to the chamber snapped in half soon after buying it. The store said it is common. Got it fixed and have had no further problem with it.
My Marlin 444 had the ejector come out somehow inside the gun. It was an easy fix, but the gun couldn't be fired until it was disassembled and the part replaced into it's proper position. This was not my fault. When this happened, I had never taken the rifle apart-so it wasn't a question of me forgetting to put it back when I assembled the rifle.
I have had feeding hangups at one time or another on most of my lever actions. Nothing serious, but it was a hangup.

On the other hand, I have an AR15 that I have fired close to 5000 round through. I have had two malfuctions. One was the result of using a USA brand 40 round mag which resulted in a failure to feed. The other malfuctiion was a dud round (PMC). When I cleared the stoppage the bullet pulled out of the case and spilled powder throughout the action. The rifle was pretty much dead in the water at that point. I had to tear it down and clean it.

All firearms will malfunction. All firearms can break. It is just a question of when. If you shoot any one of them enough, it will happen.

Nightcrawler
June 15, 2003, 01:42 AM
444, your points are valid, but as far as I can recall, nobody suggested that the lever rifle was "better" than a semiauto for defensive useage. It was merely discussing whether or not the lever rifle could be adapted to that role, which it certainly can be, and it would work quite well.

No, it wouldn't give you the capacity or rate of fire of a semiauto, but we all knew that from the get-go.

444
June 15, 2003, 01:57 AM
"nobody suggested that the lever rifle was "better" than a semiauto for defensive useage."
That has been eluded to.


"It was merely discussing whether or not the lever rifle could be adapted to that role "
As you can note in a previous post I made, I agreed completely. If for some reason, you are limited to a lever action rifle, it will do a good job. There are worse choices.

Also note that I was simply answering questions that have been asked. They may not be agreeable to everyone, but hey ?

355sigfan
June 15, 2003, 03:31 AM
Only problem lever guns have tactically is working the lever from the prone position. Being able to "top off" the tube magazine with the rifle ready to fire is an advantage over box magazine rifles that makes up for the relative slowness of a complete reload
END

I disagree. I bet I can perform a tactical reload with my AR15, where I save the partial mag faster than you can load 2 rounds in your lever gun.
PAT

goon
June 15, 2003, 04:19 PM
How fast is a .357Mag 125gr JHP going out of a 16"-20" barrel?
Yes, a lever action can be tricky to work from the prone. I have long arms, so when I shoot prone, the rifle is far enough away from the ground to not have that problem, but some have trouble with it.
But if I am driving off an intruder, why would I be shooting from the prone?
It seems to be that the lever gun did just fine in resolving problems from about 1860 on.
They will never equal an AK, but I would feel far from unarmed with one.

George Hill
June 15, 2003, 05:03 PM
Teddy Roosevelt and his motley crew of Rough Riders used a lot of lever action rifles to good effect in Cuba.
http://www.madogre.com/images/roughrider.jpg

Thinking about this topic is giving me some chuckles. I'm not clear on some issues here.
Is the lever action outdated and obsolete because:
It isn't box magazine fed?
It isn't semi auto?
It fires a cartridge that is by order of magnatude many times more powerful than an AR's widdle bitty .22 caliber pill?
It isn't black?
It doesn't have a pistol grip?

I'm a little confused.
Box magazine fed... well, neither was the M1 Garand and we stomped the Germans with it in WWII 8 rounds at a time.
Semi Auto... Well I know Ol' White Feather did just fine without an auto rifle during Vietnam.
Are there not official complaints registered about the lack of potency and stopping power with the 5.56MM? I've yet to hear one complaint that a .44 Magnum doesn't have enough stopping power on anything short of a pissed off Alaskan Brown Bear.
Since when does color have to do with the weapon's ability? The Sten Gun and MP-44 are the only guns off the top of my head that were all black... And I don't think of them as being any more powerful than anything else... even the much older 1903 Springfield that saw a lot of service.
No Pistol grip. Just like the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine or even the HBAR and the M-14.

If the Lever action sucks, then so did the Garand and the M-14... and anyone who says that doesn't know crap about firearms. Funny how SEALS tend to opt for the powerful no pistol gripped un-black M-14 instead of the black wimpy 30 round packing pistol gripped M-16.
Also the IMI TIMBERWOLF sucked rocks, which is why they are highly prized and sought after rifles for shooters that have tastes outside their mouths.

Just my opinion, I may be wrong.

rage
June 15, 2003, 06:15 PM
I put an eotech(Bushnell HoloSight) red dot on my 1894C some time last year because of cross dominance problems. What a fun gun. Eyes wide-open acquisition, speedy and accurate........well, tactical?:uhoh:

Sir Galahad
June 15, 2003, 06:46 PM
George: THAT'S GREAT!!!!! My hat is off to you, sir! I love it!! Absolutely correct!

ScottS
June 16, 2003, 08:22 AM
Also the IMI TIMBERWOLF sucked rocks, which is why they are highly prized and sought after rifles for shooters that have tastes outside their mouths.

I'm not sure how the TIMBERWOLF got in here, but, man, oh, man, do I have the hots for one of those. What a truck-gun, too.

Scott

Scott Evans
June 16, 2003, 09:59 AM
A lever gun is not in my “first choice” column as a self-defense weapon.

Don’t get me wrong … the 30-30 round is excellent (I have put down more then a few white tail with mine) and the action can be operated with reasonable speed if you train. That is until a reload is necessary. At the point of reloading the lever gun it diminishes quickly by comparison to a pump or semi-auto shotgun.

One who makes a 30-30 lever gun his self defense ready weapon trades away quite a bit in the way of fight stopping features.

Politics is a genuine concern in surviving a self-defense situation and I realize that most of us are limited in the cash we have available for firearms. Yet given the inherent limitations in the effective range of the 30-30 (compared to military cartages) and the difficulty in reloading one quickly I remain unconvinced that one is a better choice then an all American Shot-gun. Reasonable in price, select slugs for long shots, and rapid reloading (by comparison) make the shotgun a superior choice for this role. If rifle range is a must then an SKS or even an Enfield or Springfield ’03 bolt action seem better choices then a 30-30 lever gun.

ScottS
June 16, 2003, 12:40 PM
One who makes a 30-30 lever gun his self defense ready weapon trades away quite a bit in the way of fight stopping features.

Perhaps I'm missing something here. Could you provide a plausible scenario where 10 rounds of .44mag (94 Trapper) is not enough that 1) is survivable; 2) a 20/30 round mag is what have made it survivable; and 3) is common to even 1% of the shooting population?

Maybe I'm just not seeing the threat properly.

Scott

Mr. Black
June 16, 2003, 12:50 PM
You can't knock me. I don't currently own a lever gun and before this, I had never thought about one as a HD gun or anything but fun/hunting.

Now everything I'm going to say goes to "legitimate" uses. Unless something bad happens, suppressive fire; etc. will only put you in jail.

So lets say for HD. Lets not even take cost into account.

You've got your autoloaders:

.223 (ar's etc) light, fast. Marginal stopping power. Fine for CQB if set up right. Good up to maybe 100-150 yds realistically w/ iron's.

The russian rifles. 7.69x39. Better caliber. Not as mobile or handy (either AK or SKS). The SKS is slow to reload, especially in the dark, under stress; only 10 rds. Maybe 100 yds on irons.

The .308 rifles. Good caliber. Way to ungainly to manipulate in your house. Heavy. Long shots easier.

Lever gun. Fine calibers. (44, 30-30) As many shots as an SKS in some configs. Easier and shorter than all of the above save for maybe the AR. Ability to top off. Probably just as fast as the above for AIMED shots as the above. 100-150 yds range.

Shtgun. Plenty of power. Not as short (18"-16") but handier than above save for maybe the lever and AR. Less capacity than any save for militaristic full mag guns. maybe 50 yds range (maybe)

Okay. And one more thing, what's going to be better to come into court with after using your HD gun, an "assualt weapon" or grampa's deer gun?


So maybe a lever is the BEST HD and truck gun, huh? I allways thought the shotgun but maybe not.

goon
June 16, 2003, 11:46 PM
I believe that it was Jesse James who carried two .44-40 Remington 1875's and a '73 Winchester in the same caliber. He said something to the effect that when the chips are down, you don't want to be trying to figure out which ammo goes where. There was also an account of a Texas Ranger accidentally jamming a .45LC round into his .44-40 Winchester during a gun battle. Being a Ranger, he unscrewed the sideplate from his rifle, pried the .45 round out, put the plate back on, reloaded and kept fighting.
A .357 revolver/rifle combination would still benefit from that ability, but not as much as it benefitted ol' Jesse. The thing is, this is all academic. My AK is an ideal weapon for driving off intruders. I would pin them down with awesome firepower from my several 30 rounders, or simply shoot through what ever they tried to hide behind.
But I would be crucified by the local DA for expending 87 rounds in a self defense shooting.
Switch to a Winchester. I shoot two or three rounds with my cowboy gun, versus the 87 from my machine gun. It would look better, eventhough the results would be the same.
Factor in that there are few criminals who are going to use suppressive fire and flanking manuvers against me when moving down my hallway.
One way in.
I am waiting for you to stick your head around the corner.
You hear the Tchkk-Tchkk as I chamber a round.
You know that I know you are there, so that means the cops are probably on the way.
Are you actually going to be stupid enough to step into my line of fire, banking on the fact that my 30-30 only holds six rounds and that I will not be able to reload before you do?
Hell no! You would be full of holes after three.
Logic says you cut and run.
The Lever-gun is plenty good enough.

natedog
June 17, 2003, 12:47 AM
Couldn't resist :cool:. All you need to do is figure out how to spin the weapon and cycle the weapon and then you would be like Ah-nold.

George Hill
June 17, 2003, 12:54 AM
That is the most TACTICAL levergun I have ever seen. :what:

David4516
June 17, 2003, 05:57 AM
You guys got it all wrong. It isn't "tactical", it's "tacti-cool!"

I still think a lever gun in 12 ga or 20 ga would be really neat...

Glamdring
June 17, 2003, 12:49 PM
Are you giving anything significant up for defensive handguns if you use revolver vs auto?

Given that handguns are underpowered, is a revolver a liability in self defense (and if so who is going to tell Mr. Cirillo?)?

Isn't a 357 lever gun at least as good as a 357 wheelgun?? Lets see 6 rounds in the revolver vs 9+1 in the lever gun. And the 158hp's grainers will be going faster from the lever gun than 125's will go from a 4" revolver.

BTW full (modern lever action level) power 45-70 loads with 400 grain bullets will have trajectory very close to 357/158 grain loads from levergun.

Cosmoline
June 17, 2003, 02:23 PM
The Duke started the spin-cock! Not Arnold. The earliest I've seen it was in "Stagecoach," when the Duke caps off a round to hail the coach, then spin-cocks the '92. You have to have real long arms to do it IRL. And I suspect that with live ammo there's a chance of actually shooting your own arm off.

Still, it looks cool. "True Grit" is probably the best example.

PaulTX
June 17, 2003, 03:04 PM
I may have posted this here before, but here is my handy little .44 mag lever action. It's the Marlin 1894P with an Ashely Outdoors scout mount and Leupold 2x scope. The scope is great - close up or at 100 yards. You look through it with both eyes open - very tactical! :)


http://webpages.charter.net/paultx/Marlin1894P.jpg

David4516
June 26, 2003, 07:14 PM
I've been thinking about this whole tactical lever gun thing, and I've had an idea. For those of us like myself who already have a fine levergun in .30-30, and are worried about over-penitration if we were to use it as a home defense gun, what do we do? At first I was thinking about getting a new gun in .357 or .44 Mag, but then I took a look at my reloading manual...

Speer makes a 110 gr .30 cal JHP, and has load data for it in .30-30 winchester. I was thinking you could (if you reload like me) use this bullet and load it lower velcoitys, say 2100 or 2200 FPS instead of the listed 2700 FPS. The rifle loads for .357 show a 110 gr bullet at 2450 FPS from an 18 inch barrel. So I'm thinking a .30 cal 110 gr JHP going about 2200 FPS should have more "stopping power" than any handgun and still be less likely to go thur lots of walls than a rifle chambered for .357 or .44 Mag would...

So does this sound like a dumb idea or a good idea? I know a .30-30 rifle won't have as high a capacity as a .357 rifle would, but other than that I can't think of why it wouldn't be just as good, if not better...

http://www.midwayusa.com/midwayusa/applications/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=336780

Cosmoline
June 26, 2003, 08:43 PM
I wouldn't worry about "overpenetration" either way. But I would point out that the sectional density on the .308" bullet is going to be higher than the SD on the same weight .357" , and it will probably penetrate more deeply all things being equal.

355sigfan
June 27, 2003, 02:34 AM
I wouldn't worry about "overpenetration"
END

Thats a foolish policy. You will lose all your livelyhood in a rightious law suit if your unlucky.
PAT

Andrew Wyatt
June 27, 2003, 03:05 AM
overpenetration is a nonissue, since most projectiles are only moving a fraction of their MV when the exit a body.


penetration of walls and whatnot when you miss is something to consider, of course.

Cosmoline
June 27, 2003, 03:41 AM
Worry about whether you can exercise deadly force
Worry about whether you're aiming in the right place
Worry about whether you have the safety on
Worry about whether you've got a round chambered

Don't worry about overpenetration. Unless your goblins are stacked up like the ninja SWAT types ;-)

And there are NO NINJAS in Bethel! (sorry about that--had to poke the usual fun from the civilized world in Palmer)

I love Bethel. It's the only place on Earth where a Russian, a Korean and an Eskimo can get in a fist fight with a Sikh
:D

David4516
June 27, 2003, 04:07 AM
I think it is something to worry about. What if I miss Mr. Bad Guy for whatever reason? I don't want my stray round to go thur 5 houses and kill someone half a mile away...

Now I realize that almost any round will go thur a wall, but some will go thur more than others, and I want to lower the risk of hurting someone other than the bad guy...

Cosmoline
June 27, 2003, 04:12 AM
IMHO (and it's only a HO), the problem can easily be resolved by using good HP or SP bullets. Maybe if you live in a swarming city, it's a problem. In most cases, though, overpenetration is going to be the LEAST of your concerns if you have to defend yourself. Me, I want something that will drop them instantly that I can aim well even when I'm tired. A levergun fits the bill nicely.

David4516
June 27, 2003, 04:33 AM
"problem can easily be resolved by using good HP or SP bullets"

ya, thats what I was asking. Will the 110 gr JHP be an effective manstopper and be less likely to go thur alot of walls at the same time? I think so but I'm not 100% sure about that...

only1asterisk
June 27, 2003, 05:27 AM
Nothing wrong with leverguns for SD/HD. If you actually do have to shoot someone, it can't hurt you to be using "Grampa's old deer rifle" instead of one of those scary "machineguns". The lever action's only disadvantage comes from being a little slow to reload. If you choose a rifle chambered for a revolver cartridge, or a 30/30, 35 Rem, 444 ect. with a full magazine. You will 8-10+ rounds at the ready. Not too many BG's will stand and fight, and if you're concerned about running out of ammunition, a pisol belt complete with pistol, extra magaz ines and flashlight makes a fine companion when you grab you're rifle (or in my case shotgun) in the middle of the night. Rifles are better suited for rural life where you have barns, outbuildings and amimals/equipment to take care of. I don't see any real advantage over the shotgun in urban/suburban HD.

As for it being the Ozark Assault Rifle, this is true. The reason being, it works.


David

355sigfan
June 27, 2003, 05:52 AM
overpenetration is a nonissue, since most projectiles are only moving a fraction of their MV when the exit a body.
END

I disagree it depends alot on the projectile and how much energy it exits the body with. For example New York PD had a lot of people get hit from bullets that hit their intended target and passed through and hit innocent people. The injuries varied. Overpenetration is always an issue. Of course you can weigh this against where you live and what kind of enviroment you live in. If you live on a farm with no neighbors you have less of a worry than does someone living in a condo.
PAT

Cato
June 27, 2003, 12:19 PM
Glamdring wrote: In what situation, that a civilian might face where they could legally use a rifle, will a lever gun fail? How exactly would an AR, AK, SKS, or M1a help them in that situation?

What about having one arm shot/slashed to pieces?

If we talk about "tactical", I envision a worst case szenario- and the example of Agent Mireles, who had difficulties pumping the action of his Remington 870 because of a 5.56 bullet through his arm, is something to consider. From time to time one reads in newspapers about home invasions, where the homeowner was severely beaten but then, in a moment of distraction, could reach his home defense gun. So the worst case may have you wounded on the ground witz several intruders ready to take on your family. Anybody want a lever action in that situation? Are your children, is your wife, your girlfriend strong enough to use the lever action without short stroking? No thanks, I would rather see them use something like this one:
http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/images/m15a4le.jpg

30 rounds ready to go with one stroke, each round designed to stop men instantly, not Grizzly bears, no recoil = fast follow up shots, lightweight & short even with optical sights. Collapsible buttstock stored in a nearly closed position is even natural for smaller statured people - kids, women.



Regards

Cato

H&Hhunter
June 27, 2003, 12:29 PM
I know one thing for sure.

EVERY ONE WHO PUTS A SCOPE ON A LEVER GUN IS GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!Blasphmey I tell you ;)

And oh that's a quote from my good friend Ashley Emerson.

Cosmoline
June 27, 2003, 12:40 PM
2,200 fps should be sufficient to allow for expansion of those bullets. If you want more fragmentation, you could always speed them up.

Andrew Wyatt
June 27, 2003, 02:23 PM
I disagree it depends alot on the projectile and how much energy it exits the body with. For example New York PD had a lot of people get hit from bullets that hit their intended target and passed through and hit innocent people.


did they pass through interior and exterior walls? how bad were the injuries?

355sigfan
June 27, 2003, 02:31 PM
I will have to do some digging to get that information. From what I remember injuries varied. But none were minor.
PAT

inGobwetrust
June 27, 2003, 02:31 PM
"I know one thing for sure.

"EVERY ONE WHO PUTS A SCOPE ON A LEVER GUN IS GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!Blasphmey I tell you"

And oh that's a quote from my good friend Ashley Emerson."

H&H,

Does that mean that Ashley will be leading the charge to Hell since he designed a scout scope mount just for the purpose of scoping lever-guns?

:neener: :neener: :neener:

Cosmoline
June 27, 2003, 03:36 PM
I also recall the NYPD emtying high caps at unarmed suspects and STILL missing with over half their shots :rolleyes: Get it right the first time, I say. And don't go to NYC :D

H&Hhunter
June 27, 2003, 06:52 PM
Ingobwetrust,
There is no doubt in my mind that Ashley is going straight to hell.:D

If you'll ever get the chance to hunt or shoot with him you'll no what I say is true within 15 seconds.

Just by the way Ashley is now running IWI and MMC. Have you noticed that since the ugly little break up at Ashley Outdoors formley known as AO sights then the name was changed to X.S. systems. They are no longer allowed to use the Ashley name. That XS hasn't come up with one single new inventive or usefull product. I guess it doesn't pay to get rid of your main man does it?

JShirley
June 27, 2003, 07:04 PM
David,

As Cosmoline hinted, upping the velocity on a hollow point will typically reduce penetration. This is because the HP will expand more dramatically, and/or fragment.

This is also one of the reasons why pistol caliber carbines or SMGs actually have more penetration in drywall than light, high velocity rifle rounds- the lightweight, high speed .223, for instance, will tend to come apart much more rapidly than a much slower and heavier 9mm round.

John

Atticus
June 27, 2003, 08:48 PM
How do you guys feel about Buffalo Bore .44 special loads for HD in a lever gun? Buys you another round or two in the mag as well.

_________________________________________________________

"A message from Mike Fletcher, Owner, The Gun Room

I don't reload due to time constraints. I like the .44 Special, but factory ammo does not address the true potential of the cartridge. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore Ammunition was willing to work with the following specs:

255 grain WFN @ 1000 fps in a 4” revolver,
with pressures suitable for older S&W's or Colt SAA's

I now offer the best factory .44 Special ammo currently made. This ammo is suitable for hunting or defense. It is not plinking ammo.

Buy a box – if you are unsatisfied, I will buy back any remaining rounds.

Price: $58.00 per box of 50. Free shipping on orders of 2 or more boxes.

Heavy .44 Specials, 255 gr. WFN, 1000 fps"

Sunray
June 28, 2003, 02:19 AM
'Tactical' is a marketing term used to sell firearms. There'sno such critter as a 'Tactical' anything.

JShirley
June 28, 2003, 05:02 AM
On the contrary- in its original, and correct usage, tactical is used to differentiate from strategic, ie:

Tactical nuclear device would be a much smaller, limited yield weapon...

John

Sir Galahad
June 28, 2003, 05:14 AM
About 90% of things called "tactical" these days are really "craptical".

444
June 28, 2003, 08:42 AM
Tactical: Adjective.
Of or relating to combat.

seeker_two
June 30, 2003, 01:19 AM
How do you guys feel about Buffalo Bore .44 special loads for HD in a lever gun? Buys you another round or two in the mag as well.

BB's are made for DEEP penetration, & I don't think they're offering hollowpoints yet. I don' t think they'd be a good choice.

However, the .44SPL's from Speer or Cor-Bon would be a great idea--esp. with the velocity boost from a rifle. Maybe load the mag w/ them & keep the Magnum loads on the butt cuff (for those times that you have to punch a hole THROUGH something to punch a hole IN something... :evil: )

David4516
July 1, 2003, 03:34 AM
Well I might just have to go ahead with my 110 gr JHP idea, because today I aquired a second Winchester Model 94, in .30-30. Ya, I already had one, but this one was the right price. I got it from my Dad, and he said I could pay him for it latter :D

Now my nice, Pre-64 rifle can stay in the safe most of the time, and I can use this new one as a "beater". I can think it will work well in that role, since I can tell it's previous owner (not my Dad, he got it from a friend and had the thing for less than 24 hours before I took it off his hands) didn't take care of it. It's got some rust and pitting all over the outside, but the barrel looks nice and clean, so it should shoot well.

only1asterisk
July 1, 2003, 06:33 AM
David4516,

Federal makes a 30/30 load with 125 grain JHP, might be a good factory alternative to 110 grain handload.

David

inGobwetrust
July 1, 2003, 02:06 PM
How about the Remington 30-30 Accelerators? Wouldn't they act just like a 55 grain .223 out of an AR15?

David4516
July 2, 2003, 04:37 AM
Well I've made up a small batch of 110 gr JHPs using IMR 4350 powder. I'm going to test them out along with the new (well, new to me anyway) rifle tommarow. I'll report back here when I return...

Joe Demko
July 2, 2003, 02:50 PM
Figure you just got to have them quick box magazine taktikewl (which is the correct spelling) reloads? May I recommend to you the Winchester Model 88, the Sako Finnwolf, the BLR, and some variants of the Savage Model 99? Afraid that the .30-30 or the pistol calibers just don't have the range and "knockdown" you need for the two or three gunfights you get into on a daily basis? Please check out all those same rifles. They are available new and used in all manner of real, true rifle cartridges.
Give it up chairborne rangers and mall-ninjas. For anything a civilian or 99.999% of LE is going to do, a lever gun will handle it.
p.s. the Savage 99 is the greatest rifle of all time.

JShirley
July 2, 2003, 05:20 PM
p.s. the Savage 99 is the greatest rifle of all time

For shame. Everyone knows the Lee Navy '95 is the actual greatest rifle of all time. :scrutiny:

John

seeker_two
July 2, 2003, 11:11 PM
p.s. the Savage 99 is the greatest rifle of all time

For shame. Everyone knows the Lee Navy '95 is the actual greatest rifle of all time.

I'd always thought it was the Winchester 1895 in either .30-06 or .405...:D

David4516
July 3, 2003, 03:58 AM
Attention reloaders:

If you load for .30-30 you might want to give this a try! These 110 gr Speer JHPs worked great! They were accurate, reliable, and best of all, the recoil was very mild. The load I used was 37.5 gr IMR 4350. I'm not sure if I'll ever use this load for "tatical" stuff, but it sure is fun to shoot! I think it would be a good one to use for situations where you want to teach someone to shoot and don't want to hurt their sholder.

I did have a small problem with my rifle. The rear sight was a bit bent, and it caused me to shoot about a foot to the right at 50 yards. I've got a different sight on there now, so next time I take this rifle to the range I'll have to see if that solves the problem...

DAL
July 3, 2003, 04:14 AM
Give it up chairborne rangers and mall-ninjas. For anything a civilian or 99.999% of LE is going to do, a lever gun will handle it.

YESSS!!! A BIG high five for you, Golgo-13! Thanks!
DAL

natedog
April 19, 2004, 09:52 PM
I know I'm pulling this thread out of the grave, but in regard to civilian self-defense and overpenetration- I've heard that any damages that happen to an innocent bystander or someones property in the process of shooting someone in self-defense is considered to be the fault of the criminal, since they initiated the encounter.

PaulTX
April 19, 2004, 10:07 PM
I don't think that is correct. I think you are going to be responsible for every bullet you fire!

ducktapehero
April 19, 2004, 11:02 PM
Even if the criminal got blamed for the innocent bystander being shot(which I doubt) would you still want to live with that?

KaceCoyote
April 20, 2004, 12:30 AM
I've got a box've 20 170 grain Hollowpoints next to my bed, my Marlin lives in a rifle case between the stand and my bed. In it's buttcuff is 9 rounds of 170 grain hollowpoints. In it's magazine at all times are, 6 170 grain hollowpoints and I have a 7nth sitting loose on the nightstand in the case I would need to chamber and top up in the middle of the night.

I may not be any Carlos Hathcock at the range but if I cant pop a badguy, in the dark...in the most familar territory in my LIFE then I've got some issues that an AR isnt going to solve. I -know- I can ratchet off 170 grains into the black at 15-20 yards faster than I can hit the black with my pop's uber tactical AR carbine he's so fond of. I also know that if I hit some goblin in the middle of the night, in central body mass there is -NO- way he will leave my house alive. I like big bore, I like Lever actions. If I had my way I'd have a 12 guage lever next to me, but all I have is my thuddy thuddy. I dunno bout you guys but I -can- work my lever with one arm. As quick or as accurate? No but I doubt your going to be a whole lot faster or accurate firing your black rifle with one arm. I think at that point adrenaline is going to negate if you've got a .223 or a .20mm.

I'm 100% confident in my beloved "Mr. Thuddy" to ensure that if I find any goblins in my house at night, Johnny long arm is going to find them in peices soon after. Break into my place and you -will- get popped with a .30-30, and you -WILL- go down on the first round that hits. Slower reload? If you cant pop the dude in your own house within 7 rounds then you dont need a new rifle you need a hell of alot more ammunition, as in to practice with.

I know I, nor anyone else can always be a perfect shot, but seriously people your in your own ulta familar house. The badguy is in an alien enviroment, at night versus an opponent who is committed (in mycase anyway) to fighting back or to die trying. I will -not- retreat from my own home be they zombies or the entire army of Ceasar. If your a goblin and you take fire, realistically are you going to either A. Stay and attempt a flank whilst laying down heavy supressive fire with your deadly black rifle so you can snag somones TV, Puter and maybe wallet whilst dodging fire from a determined defender with a .30-30 loaded with....170 GRAIN HOLLOWPOINTS!...or B. Run away and knock over some middle aged single woman with a bumper full've anti gun stickers?

We're fighting addicts in need of a fix, rapists and the occasional zombie. These arent typically people who are going to be terribly well armed, TYPICALLY. Even then if they are, are they gonna pick a house where its a fair fight or what?

Really...now zombies...those require black rifles..

ECVMatt
April 20, 2004, 10:05 PM
I have a Marlin 336 with a scout mount. I have a Tasco red dot mounted on it and sighted in for the Federal 125 grainers. I keep this as my house set up. I also have ghost ring sights that are set for the 150 silvertips I shoot when I am out in the hills. I have not shot the 125 at any sort of test medium that would be considered scientific, but when in the desert I have shot them at old cars, abondoned buildings, etc. They come apart very quickly and are not overpenatrative in the least. I would consider these much safer rounds to shoot in a urban situation that .233 fmj's. I also lived through the 92 LA riots which made me think hard about a rifle for SD. In the end I settled on my Marlin. I was never attacked by mobs of poeple, but did have individuals throw things at my vehicle on the way out of USC. I do not think an AR, AK, or SKS would have made any significant difference. One shot would have solved any problem that I encountered. I have shot alot of animals with the .30/30 and am confident in both its' use and power. I also tried some of the pistol caliber lverguns, but did have some jamming from the striaght walled cases. I guess I do not care if it is not considered tactical because I am confident that my choice will serve me well. That is my rant.

Matt

George Hill
April 21, 2004, 03:04 AM
One who makes a 30-30 lever gun his self defense ready weapon trades away quite a bit in the way of fight stopping features.

The only FEATURE of a weapon that stops a fight is the projectile that enters the target nearest to Center Mass. I really don't think a goblin is going to be all that impressed by your extended safety lever or beveled magazine well.

30 rounds ready to go with one stroke, each round designed to stop men instantly.
The 5.56MM was a development that stemmed from the Army playing around with .22 Hornets... And it was not designed to stop a man instantly. It was designed to shoot squirrles. Shooting men with it only came about as an option after years of tingering with it. At best it remains a rodent cartridge... maybe for larger rodents thanks to the large case volume... such as Rabbits or Chucks... But I wouldnt use one on an ROUS.

.30-30 on the other hand remains a fine tactical cartridge. It was designed to shoot bigger things like Deer and Black Bear and pissed off Cowboys. You have a lot fatter of a projectile that weighs in 100 grains or more than the 5.56MM... How can that be a bad thing? You .223 guys must be compensating for something.

I'm tickled with my .30-30 336. I'd rather have a shorter barrel on it, but it's really just fine as it is. I might only have 6 rounds in my gun... but in all reality I will only need one or maybe 2 shots. It's not like I'm hunting Xenomorphs.

David4516
April 21, 2004, 04:00 AM
ROUS

:D

Rodents of Unusual Size

I need to watch "Princess Bride" again...

sakimoto
January 30, 2007, 12:54 AM
Greetings,
I enjoy the information that everyone has added. But I know for a fact that a 30/30 lever action rifle like a marlin, has more authority at 100yrds than a .223, 44mag, or a 357 mag. I believe that it may even win over the 7.62 x 39. Fadalia has a book on the model 94 and the 30/30 round, it is pretty interesting on the diffrent types of bullet velocities. Also the 30/30 round can be found in the most remote and unusual places. They have them at feed stores where I come from. In states that dont allow assult weapons (not) a lever action rifle would make a good choice. I remember a while back. I read an article in a gun magazine that showed a person that works on 30/30 marlins. He would thin the stocks, make a compartment in the stock to hold more rounds and treat the barrel to make it shoot better, and refinish the stocks with a flat black epoxy. I dont know if there is a web site that will help make modifications or imporvements. Maybe give instructions on how to impove a marlin 30/30. Any information will be appreciated. Best regards to everyone.
Saki :D

only1asterisk
January 30, 2007, 01:49 AM
Back from the dead!

It's thread that never ends...

David

ArfinGreebly
January 30, 2007, 02:25 AM
THR's George Hill (if you'll forgive me, George) is absolutely "the man" when it comes to lever rifles.

His evolution of the CAR-Thirty can be found here.
http://www.madogre.com/Interviews/Marlin336CS.htm

http://www.madogre.com/images/ghill_rifle.jpg
Anyone who can mastermind one of these is a guy I'd like to meet.
George's "CAR-Thirty. Cowboy Assault Rifle"
here
http://www.madogre.com/PowerHouse/DSCF0294.JPG
and
http://www.madogre.com/PowerHouse/DSCF0299.JPG

Since George won't do his own bragging, I figgered I'd help him out some.

Lordy, I do love the look of that "Black Marlin" rifle gun.

nemoaz
January 30, 2007, 04:40 AM
http://www.suarezinternational.com/leveraction.html

I'm sure this guy is knowledgeable, but with the commando assault stance it is just hard for me not to laugh at him.

Vairochana
January 30, 2007, 06:01 AM
For those who were bagging the levergun as opposed to an AK or AR just remember that in some parts of the world we can't have semi-autos

B.D. Turner
January 30, 2007, 10:59 AM
My go to rifles are both lever action Marlins one a 336W in 30-30 and an 1894 in .44 Magnum. By the way my state does allow military looking semi automatics so I could own anything on the market.

What has changed about self protection in the last 150 years? The same rules still apply today. Favor is on the side of the one that delivers the first accurate shot. Nothing will ever change about this. That leaves the ball in the court of the protection minded firearm owner. It is his duty to pratice and sharpen the skills needed to act in a life or death situation. We have seen by past incidents that most gun encounters end with only a few rounds fired. Some incidents required many rounds due to caliber failure or tactical failure on the part of the shooter.
The Marlin 336 30-30 is accurate enough to fire within a inch square at 100 yds.. Low recoil puts you back on target quickly. The 30-30 caliber has dropped bear,moose, and elk so the caliber is a proven stopper. The .44 and .357 are proven calibers both in the field and as law enforcement calibers. In todays world of high tech rifles the old lever action still has its place and is still doing the job.

ravencon
January 30, 2007, 01:15 PM
What has changed about self protection in the last 150 years?
The legal consequences of acting to protect life and property have changed in many jurisdictions. Which is why a lever action may be the best "real world" choice even if it isn't the best tactical choice.

BigG
January 30, 2007, 01:23 PM
Can't we have a flashing bozo face alert icon in the table of contents for these threads that inexplicably get dredged up again after how many years? :uhoh:

Chilean
January 30, 2007, 04:53 PM
hey, we use the winchester 1873 in the war of the pacific.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_the_Pacific
http://www.guerradelpacifico1879.cl/armasfuego/winchester1873.jpg

go_bang
January 31, 2007, 12:23 PM
Since this thread has been stirred up again, here is the article Ashley Emerson wrote about his experiences using a Marlin 336 30-30 at Thunder Ranch:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/thunder_ranch.htm

KaceCoyote
January 31, 2007, 06:10 PM
wow...ancient history.

George Hill
January 31, 2007, 07:14 PM
This threat just might be one of the oldest Zombie or "Living Dead" threads on THR. Goes back to 2003? Wow.

The world of the .30-30 Lever has been blessed by Hornady. Their LEVERevolution ammunition is fantastic stuff... and now they have it in .35 Remington, .45-70 and a couple others... and now they have even remixed the .307 Win round and have called it the .308 Marlin Express which gives you a fast handling lever gun that hits just like a .308 rifle. Very nice. Lever Action shooters have never had it so good. My CAR-30 has benifitted greatly from Hornady's new ammo. I love it. It's all I shoot from it. At FBMG's little machine gun shoot a few months ago now, several guys were impressed at the little lever's ability to reach out and hit targets 200 to 300 yards away. It is not a rifle you want to underestimate. It has killed rabbits and coyotes out to 300 and an Elk at 200. Elk are very large tough muscled animals. To be able to cleanly dispatch one, you need a bullet that has good performance and penetration. If it can drop an Elk with no problem, it can certainly drop any two legged threat.
A gun that used to be considered no good for anything past a hundred yards is now hitting at three hundred yards... and with this new .308ME round? Lots lots farther. The only limiting factor to the long range lever shooter is that the longer barrel may suffer from some inconsistncy thanks to vibration issues which Marlin has worked hard to smooth out. Already Hornady and Marlin have proved this cartridge's worth in taking big game.
I think it might be a big benifit to work up a .308ME Carbine. With a shorter/stiffer barrel, it might give better accuracy at the expenise of a lower velocity.

U.S.SFC_RET
January 31, 2007, 08:19 PM
There is such a thing called a trust factor. Have you ever seen a Quality lever action jamb? I have not. Firing one of those things at someone definitely will put the Fear of God in you quick. If you can't put down a situation with a lever gun than something is wrong. Your shot placement is apt to be more sure of itself, again with a levergun than some others with a thirty round mag. Shot placement is key and had you gotten that down for quite a few years with that same gun why not rely on it when things do go south. I have never seen a failure to feed with any winchester '94 that I have ever fired. I have never seen one not go bang. That's big medicine when it comes to confidence in a pinch.
And as far as confidence goes there more than enough false confidence to go around.

rlord
January 31, 2007, 10:25 PM
I keep the Winchester in my closet for a couple of the reasons stated in the article and one other very important one. My young boys, 6 and 4 are going to have one heck of a time reaching the thing up on the top shelf of the closet. For me its an easy reach. If somehow they managed to climb up to the shelf and somehow find and then pull the rifle down from behind the stuff in front of it AND hadn't fallen on their head and gone crying to momma, I'm still not worried. They'd have to figure out how to work the lever AND stick with it long enough to actually chamber a round. You know how easily distracted they are. When that first round came flying up into the chamber, all work on the lever would stop and they'd spend their time trying to "get that bullet". Even if they did get it in the chamber, the force required to squeeze the lever to depress the safety switch (winchester 97) and then keep it there and to then pull the trigger... Well, I think it is a great home defense gun and a really safe design around kids.

sm
January 31, 2007, 10:59 PM
Tactical.

Tactical 30-30 or anything.

Reminds me of something I read not long ago , that in reading reminded me tactical was attached to hunting and trade tools to reach a broader market.

Article went on to share more folks have defended themselves with non-locking , folding , pocket knives and kitchen knives than tactical folders.
Article continues history shared how single shot shotguns and lever action rifles open new territories, put food on the table, defended against enemies, and predators.

Difference being - back all through proven history, folks had a mindset to survive, had an idea in mind , and how to carry out said mindset, ideas and methods.

This all before Wall Street was Settled of course...where the Marketing folks settled in...;)

Switchman
January 31, 2007, 11:46 PM
Having trained two sons and one daughter with various Winchester and Marlin lever actions over the years and watching them grow up and "graduate" to semi-autos of the black rifle sort, I'm pleased to know that there is a large and enthusiastic crowd of supporters for these wonderful guns. George, you just convinced me to take that old 336 in my gun safe and give it a new life!
The defense weapons at my place include (in order of preference) an 870 Remington, Marlin .44 mag carbine, Colt Commander .45ACP, then all the rest. Not a semi-auto, semi-military black, spray-and-pray shooter in the lot.
Long live the lever action!

crebralfix
February 3, 2007, 08:43 AM
One point forgotten in all this is that it's difficult to pull a rifle out of a bag if the rifle is laden with lots of doo-dads. Lever actions come out quickly and easily. Even the magazine on an AR or AK can snag (though the shorter 20 round mags really help in this area).


I'm sure this guy is knowledgeable, but with the commando assault stance it is just hard for me not to laugh at him.

nemoaz,

You wouldn't be laughing if you knew him. Suarez spends lots of time looking into HOW to fight with tools. This is very different from learning how to fight with an AR-15. One day you may be stuck with a non-tactical, walnut laden single shot rifle in a life threatening situation. Know how to fight and cultivate the mindset.

So, yeah, in a fight, he's not going to square up to the target.

wcwhitey
February 3, 2007, 10:03 AM
"I know I'm pulling this thread out of the grave, but in regard to civilian self-defense and overpenetration- I've heard that any damages that happen to an innocent bystander or someones property in the process of shooting someone in self-defense is considered to be the fault of the criminal, since they initiated the encounter."

Natedog, you are correct sir, at least in NY State. The example would be for instance: If the cops are chasing a bad guy for committing a bank robbery, if during the pursuit an old person got knocked over, hit their head and died. Regardless of who knocked her over or if she even fell on her own trying to get out of the way it would be the fault of the bad guy. The presumtion is that she would not have fell, got hurt or died if the crime was not committed in the first place. Civil liabiity is another story all together, we see that in car chases all the time. When people get hurt the cops don't get arrested, but the departments get sued all the time. People have an absolute right to defend themselves, period. Each state differs on how to go about doing so but you can defend yourself against a felon. If in the process of defending yourself you shoot AP bullets within sheetrock walls and a neighbor gets struck by one you are not going to jail but you are risking civil liability and may just forfeit the same house you are protecting.

crebralfix
February 3, 2007, 01:26 PM
Focus on survival, not liability. Don't get killed or maimed because of hesistation due to fear of getting sued.

doubleg
February 3, 2007, 01:31 PM
"I'd rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.";)

wcwhitey
February 3, 2007, 08:23 PM
I am with you guys in heart. But at some time reality has to set in and things have to be thought through. Having testified for many days and hours about things that most of us would consider nonsense I have learned a few things. More important than the outcome of your decision or reason to take a particular action is the ability to articulate it. It is easy to say better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6 when you haven't faced a Grand Jury, expended all the families fortune on lawyers and aged yourself 10 years by all the hardship a shooting will bring. Arm yourself with whatever you wish but to me it seems a very smart move to consider the political climate when settling upon a DEFENSIVE weapon.
JMHO Bill

30 cal slob
September 25, 2007, 09:51 AM
God, I love this thread. :evil:

hksw
September 25, 2007, 02:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuvB7j9n-II

Anteater1717
September 25, 2007, 05:34 PM
This thread again!!! It's never going to die.

tarrigoni
September 25, 2007, 05:43 PM
Ok, stupid question -

Can you use the 308ME in a 30-30 Win rifle?

Joe Meyer
September 25, 2007, 06:07 PM
If "308ME" means .308 Marlin Express, NO WAY!

ZeSpectre
September 27, 2007, 10:07 AM
This thread again!!! It's never going to die.
Gosh I hope not, I LOVE this thread! Y'all don't think the Duke will come back to fight the zombie "injuns" on judgment day with anything other than a levergun do ya? :neener:

Seriously though, I've got enough time with cowboy action shooting to believe that a levergun could make a good tactical weapon if needed. Sometimes it's not about having the absolute BEST tool, but about having a tool that was/is good enough.

IndianaBoy
September 27, 2007, 10:41 AM
1. if you need more than six rounds and there are fewer than 5 bad guys, you're doing something wrong.

2. working the lever is just as fast as a semi auto because you don't disrupt your sight picture any more than recoil does.

3. a 30-30 has way fewer protuberences than an MP5, or M4 does.


1. You never miss? Never ever? While under pressure or with adrenaline pumping?

2. Recoil on my carbine length AR is negligible. There is no more sight disturbance than there would be with a 30-30.

3. it also has less capacity, is much slower to reload, and is slower to operate


Most of the time a lever action would be fine...... but they don't supplant semi-autos for 'tactical' purposes.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
September 27, 2007, 03:53 PM
Holy dug up old threads Batman.

jpwilly
September 27, 2007, 04:37 PM
The thread may be dug up but it still holds true. Lever actions can be used effectively when semi autos cannot be had just look at what happened to Black Bart!!

rcmodel
September 27, 2007, 04:56 PM
At the risk of saying whats already been said: (Long thread to wade through)

You would simply be amazed at how many 30-30 and .44 Mag lever-guns you could shake out the trunks of cop, Sheriff, and HP cars in any rural area of the country.

Out in the country, they are often preferred over .223 AR's due to much better auto-body performance, dispatching very large road-injured farm animals, etc.

Unless you are expecting human-wave attacks of farmers, a 30-30 or .44 Mag carbine will handle "Tactie-cool" in the country just fine, and in many cases, much better then a .223.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

goon
September 27, 2007, 05:00 PM
Eventhough this is an old thread many of the arguments don't change.

Gunsmiths everywhere know lever actions inside and out.
A marlin or even a winchester can still be had for around $200 in used good shape. Ammo is your only added expense because you don't need 12 30 round magazines stashed away in a closet for when they ban standard mags again.
They throw the brass into one pile about 6 feet away instead of into a parabolic arc somewhere between here and the next time zone - this is a real asset to anyone who wants to shoot much with rising ammo costs because reloading saves $$$.
I have found that I can acutally hit stuff with them, which is more than I can say for most AK's I've shot (AR's and FAL's have also shot well for me though).
Ammo is available and is likely to stay that way. You don't need to stash 7000 rounds for them because of a fear that imported ammo will stop coming in - several domestic manufacturers produce ammo for them every day.
The .30-30 is a well proven and reasonably versatile cartridge.

A .30-30 Marlin is on my wish list right now - I plan to work a trade for one in the next couple weeks.

This also brings up the man vs. rifle mentality.
I have seen my dad hit running deer through the neck with one shot from his old 99 Savage. In spite of all the rounds I have fired in practice with all the guns I have owned, I still don't think I could do that with any of the semiauto rifles I have owned. In a head to head fight against a guy with an AK, the guy with the AK would probably lose to my dad.
But at least he would have a full 30 round magazine to give him that warm fuzzy feeling while he was wondering how that old guy managed to get a shot off so fast...

BTW - Didn't Cooper also advocate the use of lever actions as defensive rifles?

rcmodel
September 27, 2007, 05:02 PM
Yes, he did!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

.45Guy
September 27, 2007, 05:15 PM
Does anyone by chance remember, or have a link to, an article by David Hackworth titled, "Only Hits Count?"

cwmcgu2
September 27, 2007, 05:17 PM
I think that if a semi-auto is unavailable that this is a better choice than a lever action:
http://www.remington.com/images/products/tactical/7615tac_sm.jpg
Uses AR mags so faster reloads, and pump action is arguably faster than lever while also retaining sight picture.

Anteater1717
September 27, 2007, 05:52 PM
Those 7615's are actually pretty nice; I think they would be a great alternative to a lever action for self defense purposes. That particular stock is awful looking though; the comb style looks waaaaaay better.

Legionnaire
September 27, 2007, 06:50 PM
I like the 7615, too, but would prefer this version for a "practical-tactical" rifle:

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/centerfire/lgsil_7615.jpg

And this is one of the better zombie threads, to be sure!

Samuraigg
September 27, 2007, 07:06 PM
May this thread never die.

Do they make the 7615 in anything but .223? I know being able to use AR 15 mags is a big plus for the rifle, but I'm not a fan of the caliber.

Flfiremedic
September 27, 2007, 07:41 PM
Gunsite used to offer a Tac Lever Rifle course and their guys were actually tweeking some rifles for defensive purposes.

kmrcstintn
September 27, 2007, 08:13 PM
here's another alternative to the traditional-urban-assault-black-scary-looking-high-capacity-defensive-rifle...a mix of several ideas...remington 760 or 7600 in .30-06 loaded with 55 gr Remington Accelerators; lord knows there are enough of these slide actions in PA due to the heavily wooded hunting areas...they seem to be iconic in the ole Keystone State

Nematocyst
September 29, 2007, 05:50 AM
My vote: a tactical 1894
in .357 mag (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894centerfire/1894C.aspx) or .44 mag (http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/1894Centerfire/1894.aspx).

:cool:

kBob
September 29, 2007, 02:30 PM
Re: Slide actions

Wierdly enough I pulled a Gun DIgest out of the book case at random last night to turn off the busy brain and fall asleep with. It was the 1988 edition with a gussied up TZ-75 on the green cover.

In it was an article by one William A. Rucker called "A Split Personality Pump". In the article he discribes purchasing and messing with a Remington Sportsman of the later Model 76 type.

He wanted a .30-06. He wanted to do regular hunting and he wanted to use it for a home defense gun against bears and two legged vermin.

He did not like the slick stock so he painted the stock with Black automotive crinkle paint. He wanted help for his old eyes yet wanted to be able to make those up close shots as well as the foot ball feild or two shots as well so he mounted a WIdefield 1.75 - 5 power variable on it. WHen it needed to be used as a Tacticool gun he wanted more than the four shots the standard mag held so he bought both Eagle and Ramline plastic ten rounders for the rifle.

Only bad thing about the article is that he appears in the photos done up like Frank Gorshwin in one of the worst StarTrek episodes ever to illustrate the Split Personality thing.

I had long thought the 760 series would make a good back up rifle for LEOs, especially those that trainied on the Reminton 870 shotgun. I believe they made a carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel in one model or another. That and ten round magazines would be pretty tacticool if you ask me. You could even screw up the looks and accuracy of the gun by hanging lasers, lights, and IR detectors on the barrel if that blew your skirts up

Oh BTW the good Col. Cooper refered to revolver cartridge lever actions as Boston Specials. There were folks that took carbine courses with those and .30-30s in some rifle classes. Folks shot qualifying scores with them. What more can you say?

-Bob Hollingsworth

corncob
September 29, 2007, 02:44 PM
Love me a zombie thread....

Alfadog
September 29, 2007, 04:04 PM
Oh BTW the good Col. Cooper refered to revolver cartridge lever actions as Boston Specials. There were folks that took carbine courses with those and .30-30s in some rifle classes. Folks shot qualifying scores with them. What more can you say?


As I recall, in Col. Cooper's lexicon, a short .30-30 lever gun was called a "New York Special" and a 16" .44 Mag. lever gun was referred to as a "Kansas City Special."

Erik
September 30, 2007, 06:28 PM
You recall correctly.

---

Erik - who'd rather face an incompetent with an EBR than an shooter with a leveer action.

crebralfix
September 30, 2007, 06:59 PM
Eventhough this is an old thread many of the arguments don't change.

Gunsmiths everywhere know lever actions inside and out.
A marlin or even a winchester can still be had for around $200 in used good shape. Ammo is your only added expense because you don't need 12 30 round magazines stashed away in a closet for when they ban standard mags again.
They throw the brass into one pile about 6 feet away instead of into a parabolic arc somewhere between here and the next time zone - this is a real asset to anyone who wants to shoot much with rising ammo costs because reloading saves $$$.
I have found that I can acutally hit stuff with them, which is more than I can say for most AK's I've shot (AR's and FAL's have also shot well for me though).
Ammo is available and is likely to stay that way. You don't need to stash 7000 rounds for them because of a fear that imported ammo will stop coming in - several domestic manufacturers produce ammo for them every day.
The .30-30 is a well proven and reasonably versatile cartridge.

A .30-30 Marlin is on my wish list right now - I plan to work a trade for one in the next couple weeks.

This also brings up the man vs. rifle mentality.
I have seen my dad hit running deer through the neck with one shot from his old 99 Savage. In spite of all the rounds I have fired in practice with all the guns I have owned, I still don't think I could do that with any of the semiauto rifles I have owned. In a head to head fight against a guy with an AK, the guy with the AK would probably lose to my dad.


That's because your dad understands what a rifle is for: delivering a devastating blow that ends the hunt or fight! It's not about suppressing "enemy troops"! Sure, a rifle with 30 round capacity is convenient, but I'll take a trained man for my team any day!

There is something to be said about not having to mess with magazines.

APC,inc
September 30, 2007, 07:24 PM
I went to every gun shop I know in my state looking for a 357 or 44 lever action with a 16 inch barrel. I found nothing under $400.:banghead:

I know there is a model 94 Trapper with the short barrel, is there a marlin with the 16 in barrel

Dave Markowitz
September 30, 2007, 07:33 PM
In it was an article by one William A. Rucker called "A Split Personality Pump". In the article he discribes purchasing and messing with a Remington Sportsman of the later Model 76 type.

I remember that article! It struck me as making a lot of sense.

IMHO the only thing the slide actions have over a Marlin or Winchester levergun is the easily replaced detachable box magazine. However, for vast majority of civilian defensive gun uses where the gun is actually fired, the 6 rounds that a 336's or 94's magazine holds will be enough. When was the last time you read a report of a civilian defensive gun use which involved reloads? They are pretty rare.

Gratuitous Marlin 336 pics:

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/davemarkowitz/Marlin_336_30-30/Marlin336_Right.jpg

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c340/davemarkowitz/Marlin_336_30-30/Marlin336_Eagle_Stock_Pack.jpg

tarrigoni
October 1, 2007, 01:49 AM
What stock mag pouch is that? (The OD one)

FrankG
October 1, 2007, 03:29 AM
heres another option like the 7615... the remingon model 14.. you can get it in many different calibers...i have one in .25

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_model_14

The model 14 was made from 1913 to 1934. The model 14 was produced in .25 Remington, .30 Remington, .32 Remington, .35 Remington calibers. Another version, the model 14 1/2, was produced in .38-40 W.C.F. and .44-40 W.C.F. calibers. Over 126,000 model 14's were made. In 1935, the model 14 was redesigned and renamed. The Model 141 was produced from 1935 until 1950. Over 77,000 examples were produced in three calibers, the .25 Remington having been dropped from the line.

Dave Markowitz
October 1, 2007, 10:03 AM
What stock mag pouch is that? (The OD one)

It's an Eagle Industries Shooter's Stock Pack (http://eagleindustries.com/prd_detail.asp?ProdID=53&searchfield=stock+pack&Submit2=Search).

45s save lives
October 1, 2007, 03:52 PM
wow I feel like such a nerd for knowing that Glamdring was Gandolf's sword, LOL. Love Tolkein though! Anyways, I own a Marlin 1895 GS in 45-70. It has xs ghost ring sights and an xs lever scout weaver rail. I used to have a trijicon reflex on it but took it off as i felt it wasnt necessary. I am originally from West Virginia so all the hillbilly/mountain machinegun jokes apply here, lol. But to be honest ive used it on deer and what not and it is light, handy, accurate, and damn LETHAL!! I feel that there is a difference between an offensive weapon and a defensive one. As a rural defensive weapon i can think of nothing better than a lever gun. Other "black" guns would do just as well but in a defensive case, I cant see them being any better. Jeff Cooper used to have students shooting clay birds with a 30-30. He felt strongly in the usefulness of the LA. He wrote alot obout it in his own great opinionated way, lol. The only advantage the shotgun has over the LA only applies if it is being used for an offensive role, and that is the ability to load it with the weak hand while it is still in the shoulder. But in defensive roles a reload isnt a concern. If you have to reload in your living room at 3am against some crackhead stealing your dvd player, youre done no matter what youre carrying! Remember we arnt out looking for trouble and I seriously doubt a squad of crackheads is gonna be after you. Of course in shtf or eow cases things may be different. In an urban setting I wouldnt use rifle calibers due to overpenetration.

goon
October 1, 2007, 05:22 PM
Overpenetration is a concern of ammunition as much as it is of the caliber but I will admit that I am kind of uneducated about what you would want to use in a 30-30 for that kind of environment. But I do know that there are rounds made for the .308 for more urban type settings so the 30-30 should be doable. Forty-four mag should be workable too and there shouldn't be any issues with a .357.

Maybe someone could share some info with us about ammo for the 30-30.


Also, for some purposes I will agree that a semi-auto would be advantageous but what are the odds that you are going to have to fight off a human wave attack alone?
And if you did, would an AK really do any better than a Winchester?
On paper, an AK, FAL, AR or even an SKS or Garand has a lot of potential advantages. They do have a higher rate of fire and you can reload them faster.
But I don't think that would make a difference if you were attacked by 12 bad guys after a hurricane or something. They would still eventually get you if they were determined enough.

I remember reading something about a group of people in some country that was having a political upheaval. They were all holed up together in a house that was surrounded by a wall around the property. Buildings and people around them were attacked and destroyed but they were left alone because they were armed.
What incredible weapons enabled this group of people to survive such a thing?



One hand grenade and a 1911.

Seems the fact that you can let some air out of a bad guy is often enough to make them let you alone.
If a handgun and one relatively anemic explosive devise can do that, what can a rifle that will put hot lead in something at over 200 yards and can fire about one aimed round a second (give or take) do for you?

My answer is "enough". :)

And you could probably multiply that to 2 rifles because you can still get them for about half the cost of an AK or about a quarter the cost of an AR or FAL.

BTW - I really love this thread !

phoglund
October 1, 2007, 06:27 PM
I like this thread as well. I only recently became an owner of a lever action when I bought a Marlin 1894C .357 carbine. It is now one of my favorite long guns to shoot. Lightweight, points easy, simple to operate and accurate at defensive ranges. It also slides easy out of a rifle scabbard and looks pretty innocuous in the trunk of my car as opposed to say an AK type rifle.

Sure, if I were stood behind a barrier and told 20 screaming Jihadists were going to try to overwhelm me by charging from 100 yards out I would chose a different gun out of my small collection. But for everyday trunk or pickup cab carry I'll just take the Marlin. Besides, the dang thing is just pleasant and fun to shoot!


IMHO: We shouldn't be too harsh about zombie threads or repeat threads. There are new members all the time and opinions and information changes over time. An interesting or informative thread can usually do with a rehash every once in a while. I guess I have more of a problem with posting on a re-animated thread "Wow, what an old thread this is!" and nothing else than opening a subject previously visited.

Fast Frank
October 1, 2007, 07:53 PM
I think there's a practical limit to just how much weaponry a man needs to protect his family and his property.

By that, I mean that when it becomes impractical, we've reached the limit.

This guy has exceeded that limit:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/FastFrank4x4/oddball/InternetCommando.jpg

Me?

Yes, I own an EBR. (That's an Evil Black Rifle for those that didn't know)

I bought it because I wanted an AR15.

It turns out that my wife likes it. It's light, has an adjustable stock that fits her pretty good, doesn't kick hard enough to hurt her, and she can hit using the EOTECH.

For her, it's the only choice because it's the only thing bigger than a .22LR that she can shoot.

I like it too. It's a GREAT rifle, and would surely be your best friend if attacked.

It cost a LOT of money. More money than some people might find practical.

I also own a Marlin 336RC chambered in .30-30.

I got that one for cheap out of a pawn shop.

Lets face it, guys.

I'm not Scarface. I haven't double crossed any drug lords.

I'm not about to be over run by a bunch of crazed Columbian hit men.

And I'm not going to get a chance to say "Let me introduce you to my little friend!" before cutting loose with a grenade launcher.

Now, I'm not immune to crime, either.

Sure, it's possible that some low life or two might decide that robbing my house looks like a good idea.

But that's not going to have me swapping out magazines and laying down cover fire.

Nope...

If it gets to the point where I have to start shooting, it will only last for a few seconds.

The bad guys here want soft targets.

If the victims start shooting people, anybody left standing starts running.

My 336 is powerful enough, and holds enough bullets to do the deal.

It's absolutely reliable, easy to use, accurate at three times the range where I can actually claim self defense, and I won't hate myself if it gets scratched or develops a rust spot.

Yeah, a high-zoot EBR is fun, and cool, and all that.

But it doesn't keep this rifle from being WAY more than adequate for home defense. (It's the one on top)

A man armed with this rifle stands a very good chance indeed.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a184/FastFrank4x4/oddball/336carbine001.jpg

mnw42
October 2, 2007, 01:50 AM
I keep my m94 next to the bed loaded with 125 gr HPs or my M1 carbine with Remington SPs. They are the only two long guns I have that are handy enough for the task.

Nematocyst
October 2, 2007, 02:00 AM
Don't worry sir, I'm from the Internet. OK, I'm worried. :uhoh:

I'll take a cowboy (or Aussie) hat and a lever gun.

JFrame
October 3, 2007, 04:02 PM
Just giving another bump to "The Thread that Would Not Die"... :)

My one HD "long gun" is a Winchester Trapper in .357 -- light, fast-handling, accurate, and with more than adequate oomph. Plus, my liberal neighbors once saw it, and started laughing hysterically. One of them said, "I had one of those when I was 10 years old!" Now THAT'S non-threatening... ;)

Nematocyst
October 3, 2007, 05:04 PM
That's a good story, JFrame. :D

Nothing at all threatening about a .357 mag. :what:

Why I'd not hesitate to walk into a hail of fire
from a battery of .357 mag carbines
and just stop bullets in their tracks like Neo. :rolleyes:

http://www.subtraction.com/pics/0305/030522_neo_bullets.jpg

Oohrah
October 4, 2007, 03:17 AM
For those who complain of the loading or not being able to
use pointed bullets, don't forget the Savage 99 in many
calibers including 30-30 and even the 308 ! May be a few
Win. 88s, Browning levers with clip mags, and even the clip
fed Ruger 44 Mag with a rotary magazine. So options for
pointy bullet lever action come with a rotery magazine of clip
fed.:)

cwmcgu2
October 4, 2007, 03:31 AM
For those who complain of the loading or not being able to
use pointed bullets, don't forget the Savage 99 in many
calibers including 30-30 and even the 308 !

Ooooooo, I want one. What do used 99s go for in good condition these days?

goon
October 4, 2007, 12:39 PM
I don't think I have ever seen a used 99 Savage for less than $400. They are sweet rifles and pretty common where I am from. I'd definitely go with .308 over 300 Savage - not so much for performance because the 300 is adequate for most anything you could use a .308 for, but just because the .308 is generally a more common round.
A 99 Savage in .300 Savage was the first centerfire rifle I ever shot. I was 12 and I hit the bullseye. And the steel buttplate hit me. ;)

the naked prophet
October 4, 2007, 01:04 PM
How come everybody is saying the lever action rifle is cheap? You can get a 5.45 AK around here for a little under $300, or an SKS for around $200. Cheapest lever rifle I've seen around here was a Marlin .30-30 with wood worn smooth and practically no blue (evenly worn, no rust), with a cheap Tasco .22 scope mounted on it, for $315. Winchesters are usually higher, though I do prefer the feel of the straight stock to the curved Marlin.

Honestly, I'd love to have a lever action rifle for my trunk gun, but they're just so expensive. I'll have to settle for an SKS, soon as I can find one (been watching one in the pawn shop - norinco the owner said I could have for $150, but the owner keeps paying interest on it, he's paid more than the gun is worth in interest so far, and keeps paying... I think he's just torturing me).

Ammo is also quite a bit cheaper for the SKS than the .30-30 but that wouldn't be such a big deal for the .357 - but you never see those used.

goon
October 4, 2007, 01:58 PM
You must just be unlucky. I found a Marlin 30-30 the other day for $189. Finish isn't in the greatest shape and there is a little surface rust but it wouldn't be a huge crisis to clean up. Really nice used ones usually go a little over $200 where I'm from.

Joe Leland
October 4, 2007, 10:47 PM
The .30/30 lever action can be an effective rifle for defense.

With some discussion about the Marlin 1894 in .44 mag, I remember reading in college about this incident that happened in New Orleans, LA back in 1972. I forgot all about it since, well, it was a long time ago :) . I did a search and this is what I found: http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mark_essex/

Essex used the old Ruger .44 magnum semi-auto Carbine that held a total of 5 rounds with the chamber loaded.

ken B
October 14, 2007, 02:48 PM
wow good thread...i can't let her die!

I need to find a good 30/30 to do the barrel cut down trick to..or wait till Big 5 has the 18.5" Marlin 357 on sale

the pawnies around here...like some of the other posters..they have the levers really high... i might wait till Feb. after deer season to go hunting for one...

kb

Ratshooter
October 15, 2007, 04:34 PM
This is my take on lever guns for defense.

I arrived at Alpine shooting range in Ft. Worth Tx at the same time that the guards from the fedreral prison were finishing up their qualifications with the AR 15 type rifles at the 50 yard range. The group included two men and two women. I believe the women had done most of the shooting. The man shaped targets were holed in every area except the 10 ring.

I asked the group if they were done and if it was allright to shoot at their targets. They said they were done and to go ahead. They watched as i removed my .357 Marlin and loaded 9 rounds in the magazine.

Normally the range does not like you to shoot faster than one round per second, but since the rangemaster was watching i thought i might get away with breaking the rules this one time.

I fired my 9 rounds as fast as i could lever the gun and get a flash sight picture. The gun never left my shoulder. When i had finished all 9 rounds were in the formally unshot 10 ring. I did have one round that cut the line at 9 o'clock. I ask the supervisor of the guards if i had qualified. He said that i most certainly did.

I do not feel unarmed with my Marlin rifle at the ready. My only regret is that i spent about 3 years trying to find a deal on a used one. I finaly gave up and bought new. It is my favorite of all my rifles. If you THINK you want one,Just bite the bullet and get it. I wish i had been enjoying this rifle a lot sooner.

Ratshooter
October 15, 2007, 05:39 PM
When you've read this thread and you want more on leverguns, try leverguns.com. It is hosted by Paco Kelly and has a boatload of good info.

P.S. This thread should never be allowed to die.

phoglund
October 15, 2007, 06:40 PM
I second Ratshooter's recommendation. After I picked up my Marlin 1894C and shot it I couldn't believe I had lived so long without it. It is simply a joy to shoot. They tend to be hard to find around here and when I saw one in a shop about a year ago I bought it on the spot! The guy behind the counter said it had only been on display for two days. I believe it as it was the only one I'd ever seen. I had one on order from another store but it hadn't showed up after 6 months so I canceled the order when I found the one I bought.

Astridgilberto
October 15, 2007, 07:29 PM
I have been using lever action Winchester and Marlins on the local range for quite a few years now, ever since the government banned semi-auto pistols, so I can vouch for their accuracy ,ease of use and speedy action at ranges of up to 200 yards, my hope is that someone will bring out a commercially viable box magazine rifle with around 15 rounds capacity, it is long overdue and I am sure would be very popular. One or two English companies have tinkered with Brownings and Rugers, but nobody has taken the plunge and produced any in quantity yet.

Mike

hansol04
December 10, 2007, 11:04 PM
can... let... it... die.... What is the maximum range a guy can hit at with a 30-30 anyways? I've heard of a few guys connecting with a deer at 250ish yards. Any validity to that?

stevereno1
December 10, 2007, 11:13 PM
the 30-30 can indeed smash a deer at 250, even 300 yards! It take a shooter that practices in that range, but it is easily achievable, but you gotta put in the practice. secondly, a marlin 336 is a formidable weapon in a self-defense situation. It is very powerful, fast to the shoulder, and can be shot from the hip if need be.(God forbid!)

dom1104
December 11, 2007, 01:47 PM
I only have one contribution.


This

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzJ6nn7ttEE

is alot cooler than this

http://www.thebluething.com/img/internet-soldier.jpg

:)

siglite
December 11, 2007, 01:54 PM
Glad to see I wasn't too goofy when I posted that was thinkin' of a "thutty-thutty" as the ultimate "Apalachian Assault Rifle."

Hey! Us Appalachian dwellers resent that! :D

As do many revenuers over the years..... :cool: :evil:

RedLion
December 11, 2007, 07:41 PM
What do you guys think would be the max effective range of a lever in .357?

roscoe
December 12, 2007, 02:00 AM
Right now it is about 100-150 yards, because the bullet slows down quickly due to drag (you can check the ballistics on Winchester's ammunition web site). However, Hornady is due to release a LeverEvolution .357 round that will probably extent the range of the .357. I am sure it will be expensive, but it will probably be a good round.

I, too, am a tactical lever gun advocate. The 30-30 is one of the most versatile rifles out here.

George Hill
December 12, 2007, 03:45 AM
My Black Marlin is one of my very favorite rifles... maybe my most favorite, but I can't decide.

cyclist
December 13, 2007, 11:28 AM
From the New Orleans link above:
Eventually, the sniper tossed a crumpled red and white cigarette pack onto the roof. "I shot the pack a couple of times and bounced it around on the rooftop," Saacks says. He was trying to send the sniper a message: He wasn't the only one who knew how to shoot.

I'd forgotten about this incident.

Anteater1717
December 13, 2007, 08:50 PM
Oh god it's back from the dead!!!
Die zombie thread, die!!!

Mike 56
December 13, 2007, 10:01 PM
What do you think cut these 16 inches or 20 inches. http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl25-e.htm :what: I am really found of my 94 30/30 one of the best all round rifles ever made but i would not want to go against a AK or AR and a vest full of 30 round mags.

Mike

xd45gaper
December 13, 2007, 10:52 PM
never!!!, you cant mount a flashlight, forward grip, laser sight, backup flash light, and your EOtec on a lever gun!!!

now if someone could only make a collaspable stock, and forward grip with mounting pads i could see a tactical 30-30!!!

Mike 56
December 14, 2007, 12:01 AM
xd be carefull what you ask for.

Mike

Fast Frank
December 14, 2007, 02:53 AM
From the New Orleans link above:

Quote:
Eventually, the sniper tossed a crumpled red and white cigarette pack onto the roof. "I shot the pack a couple of times and bounced it around on the rooftop," Saacks says. He was trying to send the sniper a message: He wasn't the only one who knew how to shoot.

I'd forgotten about this incident.

New Orleans link?

This looks like interesting reading, but I can't find any "New Orleans link" to follow.

ArfinGreebly
December 14, 2007, 04:07 AM
It's the story linked in post #163 of this thread.

See here: (CrimeLibrary site (http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/mark_essex/))

Nematocyst
December 15, 2007, 04:32 AM
While catching up on reading on this Friday night ... er, Saturday morning
(just before sleep), I had to remind myself about this thread's topic.

"The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle"

Tactical (it.csumb.edu/departments/data/glossary.html): Approach taken to achieve
specific objectives or to solve a specific problem.

Maybe we should revisit this question:
what, exactly, are the specific objectives
or problems to be solved in this thread?

Home defense? Check.
Deer/hog hunting? Check.
Bear/elk/moose hunting. Maybe.
Fast rnd cycling relative to bolt? Check.
Hunting/HD/SD w/ commonly available ammo? Check.
HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check.

What am I leaving out here?

Samuraigg
December 15, 2007, 04:49 AM
What am I leaving out here?

I think the only problem is lack of quick reloads.

But then again if you need more than 9 or 10 rounds or so for self defense, you've got some serious problems...

But I keep that in mind when considering levers for SHTF.

I still love levers, and plan to make one my next purchase.

Nematocyst
December 15, 2007, 04:54 AM
I think the only problem is lack of quick reloads.Sam, relative to what?

I can top my levers off quickly at any time.

Unlike a detachable mag gun,
I don't have to wait for "empty".

I just slide in another X
after touching off X.

And they load fast

(if one knows the trick of
sliding them in past the gate
with your 3rd and 4th fingers ... )

PrimePredator
December 21, 2007, 01:26 PM
Nice 336.

New to the forum. I hope to spend some off time here. Is there any live chat room where folks from the forum converse?

crebralfix
December 21, 2007, 11:10 PM
I don't know about the .30-30 for defese though. Maybe if you live out in the middle of nowhere. But I'd rather have one in .357 or .44 Mag because it is less likely to go thur alot of walls.

Suddenly, walls are immune to the short and weak 44 Magnum! I guess they developed an immunity to 44 caliber over time.

velojym
December 21, 2007, 11:31 PM
Home defense? Check.
Deer/hog hunting? Check.
Bear/elk/moose hunting. Maybe.
Fast rnd cycling relative to bolt? Check.
Hunting/HD/SD w/ commonly available ammo? Check.
HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check.

What am I leaving out here?

The hordes of mutant zombie bikers?

crebralfix
December 21, 2007, 11:52 PM
Home defense? Check.
Deer/hog hunting? Check.
Bear/elk/moose hunting. Maybe.
Fast rnd cycling relative to bolt? Check.
Hunting/HD/SD w/ commonly available ammo? Check.
HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check.



Bear/elk/moose hunting. Maybe ... NOT 'maybe' -- definitely! Get one in 45/70 and you too can shoot elephants (http://www.brockmansrifles.com/Images/result1.jpg)!

PrimePredator
December 22, 2007, 01:45 AM
The average round going through a normal wall will penetrate about 2 feet then it actually turns left or right and travels down the wall until it becomes lodged or loses momentum. Really doesn't matter what round. Of course there are rounds that won't do this and I don't have the figures on how it was averaged out. I received the information in CRT training. I don't think they'd feed us info to get us killed. As far as home defense give me what I'm comfortable with and what is practical to my situation. That could be anything from a wrist rocket to a .50 AE. to a claymore.

I've recently restored my 336 that I bought 30 years ago. I let my brother use it when I was in the Army and he tore it up. It's been wrapped in grease and cloth for about 20 years. Searching for parts is how I found this forum. Well now that the rifle is up and working again it will be part of my home defense plan. In the home I have a Mossberg 500 12ga pump w/ 20 inch barrel., a Glock in .40 S&W, an AMT .380 BackUp, a Savage Mark II .22 LR and 2 Uberti SSA pistols in .45LC. Plus my duty weapon is a Glock in .45 ACP. I feel confortable and I'm proficient using any one of them. I'm sure there are plenty of folks in the forum with more firepower and More Power To Them. I don't think my marriage would survive more guns at this point. Maybe in the spring.:eek:

target1911
December 22, 2007, 02:43 AM
Here is another with Flat Black Krylon
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z304/target1911/30-30.jpg

Fast Frank
December 22, 2007, 02:46 AM
Here is another with Flat Black Krylon

Seems to be catching on!:D

wuchak
December 22, 2007, 03:56 AM
Seems there are two questions being debated at the same time, if the 30-30 is a good sd cartridge, and if a levergun makes a good tactical gun. With regards to the gun lots of post are equating lever gun with tube magazines which slow reloads. There have been a lot of different leverguns made over the years that took box magazines so reloads were faster and spitzer bullets could be used. Currently you can get the Browning BLR with the detachable mag and it's chambered in a list of modern rifle calibers, unfortunately not 30-30. One nice thing on the BLR is that when you work the lever the trigger comes with it so you don't spear your finger closing it like a Winchester. It also means that your finger never leaves firing position so follow-up shots are faster.

target1911
December 22, 2007, 02:45 PM
Now I am just wandering what I use to seal the paint and keep the FLAT look.

Quote:
Here is another with Flat Black Krylon

Seems to be catching on!

Ratshooter
December 22, 2007, 04:05 PM
Redlion ask in post #173 "What do you guys think would be the max effective range of a lever in .357?"

Depends on what you want ot shoot with it.

Looking at ballistic charts it looks like the lever action has about the same energy at 150 yards as a 6" revolver has at the muzzle. That is based on my chono'ed reloads that hit 1860 fps with a 158 gr bullet.

Most hunters consider 50 to 75 yards as max for deer size game with a 357 handgun. If you add that to the long gun it just became a 200/225 yard deer rifle.

For shooting a human a hit at 250 yards should be effective.

All of this depends on you and your ability to see and hit your target. The energy is there but i would recommend a max of 125 yards for deer. How far away you can shoot at people depends on the situation. I personally would not like to have one of these shot at me if i were 400 yards away.

Samuraigg
December 22, 2007, 04:19 PM
With regards to the gun lots of post are equating lever gun with tube magazines which slow reloads. There have been a lot of different leverguns made over the years that took box magazines so reloads were faster and spitzer bullets could be used. Currently you can get the Browning BLR with the detachable mag and it's chambered in a list of modern rifle calibers, unfortunately not 30-30. One nice thing on the BLR is that when you work the lever the trigger comes with it so you don't spear your finger closing it like a Winchester. It also means that your finger never leaves firing position so follow-up shots are faster.

True, but as far as I can see, the BLR has a magazine capacity of either 3 or 4. So you do gain speed of reload but without much capacity.

Good for hunting, but for a "tactical" rifle?

PrimePredator
December 22, 2007, 04:23 PM
As much as I like the lever action gun I wouldn't choose it solely as a tactical weapon. The low capacity mag would leave you out gunned and unless you have a worked action and trigger you are in slow motion compared to semi auto guns firing pistol and rifle ammo. The carbine has a nice length barrel but it's still a bit long for close quarters. As a tactical gun I would not prefer the 336 style.

AZ_Rebel
December 22, 2007, 05:00 PM
The average round going through a normal wall will penetrate about 2 feet then it actually turns left or right and travels down the wall until it becomes lodged or loses momentum.:confused:

:o Oh... Those must be the same type of "Magic Bullets" that killed JFK! IIRC That bullet also made 90 degree turns in flight.

ArfinGreebly
December 22, 2007, 06:16 PM
"The Tactical 30-30 Lever Action Rifle"

Tactical (it.csumb.edu/departments/data/glossary.html): Approach taken to achieve
specific objectives or to solve a specific problem.

Maybe we should revisit this question:
what, exactly, are the specific objectives
or problems to be solved in this thread?

Home defense? Check.
Deer/hog hunting? Check.
Bear/elk/moose hunting. Maybe.
Fast rnd cycling relative to bolt? Check.
Hunting/HD/SD w/ commonly available ammo? Check.
HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check.

What am I leaving out here?
Well, let's, for starters, remember that tactics are a facet (or an extension) of strategy, by which I mean that strategy provides the context, the outline, the setting, and tactics is the solution set to the problems presented by the strategic context.

You have probably also heard it said that strategy is knowing what to do when there is nothing to do, and tactics is knowing what to do when there is something to do. That's perhaps a little glib, but still useful.

Things that don't move, or that don't often move, are strategic. Trees, houses, fire hydrants, boulders, mountains, rivers, buildings, roads -- your basic fixed emplacements. They are some of the elements of planning.

Have a house. Have a car. Have a rifle and ammunition. Have food and water. Have training. Have warm clothing. Have the stuff needed to make fire. HAVING these things is strategic. USING these things to solve the problems presented in the strategic contexts is tactics.

As the quote above says, "to solve a specific problem" -- as an element of strategic context.

So, given that you're solving problems in context, we can add a few things to the list:

light carry while hiking/running (context: hilly country)
reliable shooting in extreme cold (context: winter/North)
run-and-shoot reloads (context: fighting in rough cover)

And other stuff that will have to wait until I get back from dinner.

Now, I was going to mention one-handed shooting, but the full-length .30-30 just doesn't lend itself to that. Shorten it a bit and you get a better balance for that. (The 1894C is lighter and better balanced if you have to shoot one-handed.)

I understand that I'm not telling most of you anything new, but I wanted to 'splain my reasoning.

Later, guys.

Warlokke
December 26, 2007, 04:06 PM
Wow...read this whole thread in one sitting (rubs eyes and drains cup of joe).

To aid in not letting this thread die my only comment is that I like the ability of pump shotguns and lever actions to reload during the fight without dropping a mag. Since I can't think of many SD/HD situations where I am going to blast away with more than 1-2 rounds at a time, I like being able to feed more rounds in the side (or bottom with my shotgun), and keeping it topped off that way vice changing mags. It also eliminates a potential problem...most failures with autoloading pistols and rifles seem to be due to mag damage or cheap mags. No mag, no problem.

Oh, BTW, I grew up in rural TN and a lever action 30-30 in the hands of hillbilly used to hunting for meat beats a Thompson in the hands of a federal revenuer anyday....:evil:...just ask a lot of folks up in them TN hills that lived thru the Depression. :D

gunnerh
December 27, 2007, 12:17 AM
My youngest girl grew up shooting and hunting with the family. After she got out the Marines after 4 years (shooting expert rifle each year ) I give her the pick of my gun safe. She needed a HD long gun. She looked over an AR15 2 pump shotguns, 2 bolt guns and Mini-14 , she pick a Marlin 336 30/30. Her reasons made a lot of sense gun is short, quick, simple and she had confidence in it. She had taken 2 deer with it when she was young teen.

She a very smart, capable woman. (I am just a bit proud of her) She lives alone in a large city and is not fearful.

Nematocyst
December 27, 2007, 12:20 AM
... she pick a Marlin 336 30/30. Her reasons made a lot of sense gun is short, quick, simple and she had confidence in it.Now, there is one smart person.

I'm impressed, and - I confess - more than a little proud of her choice.

Samuraigg
December 27, 2007, 12:56 AM
Yeah the more I think about it... the ability to easily "top off" the rifle seems like a pretty good advantage.

Can't wait to buy my first lever this summer.

scrat
December 27, 2007, 02:03 AM
ok my .02 cents


check my sig link.

that is all. nothing else to say

Oohrah
December 27, 2007, 02:48 AM
Way better caliber in 30-30 vs 7.62x39. Rapid fire with accuracy
better than most. You could even upgrade calibers and bullet shape
with rotary and clip magazines (Savage and Win. etc.). Light and
easy carry. Draw back prone needs adaption. Any short cycle jams
are not easy to clear. Reloading the tube magazines are a little slow
and awkward under pressure. It certainly has a concideration over
hand to hand. The 30-30 ammo may be more available at a better price
than 7,62x51 that becomes scarce and expensive :fire: I would definately
want glass sights to go with back up metalic:D

Fast Frank
December 27, 2007, 03:11 AM
I think it's kinda funny.

Mention "Tactical" or "Home Defense" and everybody seems to think of the last scene in the movie SCARFACE.

You know the one.

Our little Cuban drug lord has double crossed the Colombians, and they put a huge contract out on him.

Al Pachino is holed up in his house snorting mountains of coke and watching the bad guys come over the wall. There are probably a hundred of them.

And the cold, calculated hit man is using the attack as cover... Sneaking up the balcony while the "Target" is tied up fighting the hordes of invaders.

Pachino isn't scared. Not in the least.

"You guys want to play games?" He shouts as they beat on his reinforced door. "You wanna play games? We gonna play some games all right!"

He grabs up his bad to the bone Tacti Cool M16 with attached grenade launcher from the concealed gun safe in the wall.

Then, the most famous tactical assault one liner of all time:

"LET ME INTRODUCE YOU TO MY LITTLE FRIEND!"

Pachino then fires a grenade at the door (Killing a half dozen bad guys) and charges out into the living room.

Firing from the hip, and spraying a salvo of deadly assault rifle cover fire, our hero hides behind the fallen bad guy's body for cover while cursing fluently and performing a series of tactical mag dumps.

Body armor?

We don't need no stinking body armor!

Our coked to the max hero stands full upright, taunting and cursing the endless supply of attackers and taking rounds from every direction, all the while hosing them down with his trusy Tacti-cool assault rifle.

Riiiiight...

That is SOOOOOO not going to happen.

There MIGHT be a bad guy some day. Maybe a couple.

When they find out you have a gun, they are going to totally freak out and run like the frightened teenagers that they are.

What? you say that these are gang bangers? Used to gun fighting?

Well, imagine that.

Flatten one of them with whatever you happen to have and the rest of them will revert back to the frightened teenagers that they were before they decided to be tough guys.

Tactical reloads? Not according to the FBI. Their records indicate that most self defense shootings average three shots.

If we get away from the fantasy of Hollywood, and look at real world situations, a .30-30 or .357 Marlin will suffice nicely.

The thing that will make the difference when the stinky stuff starts flying is how well you keep your head.

All the rest is just details.

md7
December 27, 2007, 10:46 AM
nicely done fast frank. i think it is safe to say that a 30-30 will be more than an adequate HD/SD/ rifle. Short, light, quick handling, and hard hitting are good combinations in the hands of someone that knows how to run that rifle like it ought to be run.

Intersting fact,

The largest manhunt in Mississippi state history happened in the early nineties. Law Enforcement were after murderer and kidnapper, Jerry Barnes. The manhunt ended after a young boy (around age 12 - 14) heard sounds of a struggle outside of his house. Jerry Barnes and the boy's father were fighting. (Barnes was trying to kill him and steal the vehicle.) 2 shots from a 30-30 later, fight was over, manhunt was over, and so was Jerry Barnes.

My point is, there are certainly better battle rifles than the 30-30 lever, but a 30-30 lever in the hands of a trained individual is fine for HD/SD if you know how to use it.

Warlokke
December 27, 2007, 02:36 PM
Yep, a lever action is just fine, especially in 30-30 since it is such a common round and likely to be found anywhere. Also, I am a bit confused on the prone postion firing issue....when I fire from the prone position I have plenty of room to work the lever. Yes, I do have to move my firing hand and elbow but at reasonable distance it is not a great hindrance, especially since your non-firing hand in the supported or unsupported prone position can easily control and support the rifle while you cycle the lever. Try it out next time you zero your weapon on the range - use prone or prone supported instead of sitting at a shooting bench. You will also have a problem with mag changes in the prone with mag fed weapons because of limited drop space and needing to tilt the rifle to insert the mag, so that issue seems to be a wash to me.

Wolfgang2000
December 27, 2007, 02:38 PM
Folks, everything is relative. Is the tube fed lever action the best and the greatest. NO. But the fact remains that is has been going strong for over 100 years.

They have been trying to re-invent the 30-30 since the late 1800's. Don't think so? Compare it to the 7MM Mauser, 30 Remington, 7.62x39, or the 6.8 spc, ET AL.

I also have and like the EBR's. I agree with what been said about the SKS. But we live if a society of 24 hour news and PC hysteria. There was a case recently where a boy was accused of possibility planing a school shooting and the kept showing his "arsenal". 99% were air soft pellet guns but they LOOKED bad.

I did an experience once. I put a CAR 15 in the back window of my truck and parked it at wally world, on a Saturday, and went and sat on the bench outside. In less that 20 minutes it had drawn a crowd. Most were guys just admiring it, but there were comments about "what does he need that for". The next Saturday I did the same with my 336. Most didn't give it a second look.

The same will happen if you have to use a rifle for defense.

Although we plan for the worst, in reality, in true gun fights, "MOST" are handled with the load in the weapon.

Y'all do what is best for you, but underestimating the old 30-30 lever action could be a fatal mistake.

Dave Markowitz
December 27, 2007, 04:02 PM
They have been trying to re-invent the 30-30 since the late 1800's. Don't think so? Compare it to the 7MM Mauser...

7mm Mauser is a couple years older than the .30-30.

Wolfgang2000
December 27, 2007, 11:53 PM
7mm Mauser is a couple years older than the .30-30.

Your correct. It beat out the 30-30 by 2 years.

PrimePredator
December 28, 2007, 11:48 PM
I stand corrected on the right angle miracle bullet. I misunderstood what was said at the training about the distance from the wall and the penetration. I spoke to one of the trainers who advised me that the 90 degree angle that stuck in my head probably came from the reasoning that a bullet striking at a 45 degree angle and not lodging will likely deflect at a 45 degree angle. The distance from the wall in CQB is to stay beyond the penetration of some rounds but to also allow a team member to move in behind you and to you flank.

rustygray
March 14, 2009, 05:37 PM
The string lives.

I just bought a 30-30. Marlin 336 pref cross bolt safety model.

Paid 250 with Scope and mounts.

I cleaned it up and will shoot it a few time before tearing it down and doing the Duracoat thing. I plan to strip the scratched and dinged stock and treat it with a coat of Herculiner.

It should look awesome and be pretty much impervious to weather and impact.

I might stay with the 4x scope or move to a rail and some flip up sights and a red dot.

Either way, tactical lever gun thread lives on.

RioShooter
March 15, 2009, 03:21 PM
I'm happy to see this thread resurrected. A lever-action is at the top of my "next gun to buy" list. The only decision left to make is what caliber. Right now I'm leaning toward a pre-64 Winchester in 30-30. My budget for this gun is about $1000.

daveit
March 15, 2009, 05:39 PM
I've been wanting a lever gun for awhile. I have a Marlin 39A which is super fun to shoot. I want an all-around rifle to shoot game in Colorado.

ECVMatt
March 15, 2009, 10:36 PM
You should be able to get a good 94 for that price, but I bet the Winchester guys would kill you for cutting it up or turning it tactical.

You might consider the Marlin 336 and look at one of these guys to fix it up for you.

http://www.brockmansrifles.com/lever_action.asp

http://www.grizzlycustom.com/custom_lever_action_rifle_brush_hawg.html

http://www.wildwestguns.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=0WWC&keywords=all

Good Luck with your project

Leaky Waders
March 15, 2009, 11:39 PM
...During one of his leaves he had purchased a Marlin 444 lever action, probably the only lever action in Viet Nam, and had it shipped through SF channels. He called it his bunker buster.

bluntweapon
March 28, 2009, 12:51 AM
I am thinking about a lever action .22 mag as my primary vehicle weapon. Small, light weight and i can carry quit a bit of ammo easily. I am also considering modifying the stock so it either comes off or is hinged so I can stick it to the side of my small pack without its silhouette showing up. Ruger makes a nice one and it will take high cap mags. I have a nice little .41 mag titanium revolver for up close stuff.

Nematocyst
March 29, 2009, 01:51 AM
nicely done fast frank. i think it is safe to say that a 30-30 will be more than an adequate HD/SD/ rifle. Short, light, quick handling, and hard hitting are good combinations in the hands of someone that knows how to run that rifle like it ought to be run.I agree on all counts.

And you can produce .30-30 handloads for any occasion,
from medium game to light loads (http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,41593.0.html) for four- or two-legged varmints.

For all the rest, there's MasterCard, or .45-70. ;)

t165
March 29, 2009, 06:00 AM
Now don't take this the wrong way...I'm not trying to argue with anyone. All this talk about tactical of what can do this and what can do that is really just a lot of talk. A 30-30 is a very potent weapon. It may not be the best but it will kill you. September, 1993, I sat in the Indiana law Enforcement Academy and heard testimony of a town marshall who responed to a 911 call with a ISP trooper of a domestic dispute. The reason the Indiana State Trooper wasn't there to testify was because he was killed during the emergency responce. He was killed by a man they chased to his bedroom who shot him with a lever 30-30. The town marshall shot and killed the man and then explained to our academy class that after he shot the suspect he performed CPR on him. He seemed to be apoligizing to us. The incident had happened only days before the town marshall was invited to speak to my academy class. Apparently he was critized for trying to save the life of the suspect. He was in tears when he was done...

Random Discharge
March 29, 2009, 08:38 AM
Rustygray,

Some alternatives to the fixed 4X on your 336 to consider, especially for your use:

I just put a reasonably priced Weaver V3 (1-3x) on a 336. The Weaver V3 has a 20mm objective and is a nice compact addition to a fast handling lever gun. Winding the scope down to 1X, there is no hunting for the target in the scope's field of view required. The transition from eye to scope is seamless and the field of view is huge.

The effect is nearly as good around ~1.5x on the Weaver, which could be acheived with an even more reasonably priced Bushnell Trophy 1.5-4.? variable scope. The objective is a bit larger on the Bushnell (32mm), the scope is just a tad longer, but I think the same purpose would be served. And you can wind the Bushnell up to 4X if you want a little more high end for long range shooting.

Opticsplanet has good prices on both. Lot's of options.

flat top
March 29, 2009, 09:47 AM
Here is a 444 Marlin XLR that I built for myself a couple of years ago for HUNTING.....it is NOT a tactical weapon....Honest!!! (just looks like one!)

Kymasabe
March 29, 2009, 10:55 AM
Great thread. Very interesting because I'm buying my first lever gun tomorrow. Found a 1978 Glenfield .30-30 at the local pawnshop wearing a WesternField 4-12x40 AO scope and an ancient leather sling for $250. I put a deposit on it weeks ago and picking it up tomorrow. The wood is dark and the stock is kinda ugly (not into the deer carvings) but otherwise the gun is clean and looks like it spent most of its life in the corner of some closet. :D

JohnL2
March 29, 2009, 11:42 AM
I wish Marlin made a lever gun chambered in .454 Casull. For now, only Legacy Puma does this. I am sure it is a fine rifle but a Marlin it is not. Even better would be a .50 Beowulf lever gun. Marlin please?

Rodigon
March 29, 2009, 05:10 PM
you need to go watch some cowboy action shooting and see how fast they can shoot a lever gun and with acuracy..it would blow your mind...lever guns are cool and fun..and in many different calibers..go and watch cowboy shooting sometime, you will be shocked and will enjoy...

JImbothefiveth
March 29, 2009, 06:36 PM
if you need more than six rounds and there are fewer than 5 bad guys, you're doing something wrong.
People don't always stop with the first round.

2. working the lever is just as fast as a semi auto because you don't disrupt your sight picture any more than recoil does.
It still takes more time, and sometimes a rilfe won't go off-target when it recoils, in which case semi-auto would be faster.
3. a 30-30 has way fewer protuberences than an MP5, or M4 does I can't think of where those would be a problem and a lever wouldn't.

If the pump shotgun is an effective weapon despite it's limited capacity and manual operation, then so is the lever rifle.
Compared to what? A rifle can take advantage of semi-auto operation more, because it has less recoil. Also, a 12 gauge will probably have more stopping power, and go through less walls.


Mall Ninja concerns aside. Your not going to be shooting dozens of rounds anywhere but the range or for plinking. Legally your responsable for every shot you fire even when shooting in self defense. So 6 to 10 rounds will be plenty. There was a news story a while ago about a cop who had to shoot someone over 20 times with his .40 before he stopped. Obviously a .30-30 has more stopping power, although it's still a concern.

In what situation, that a civilian might face where they could legally use a rifle, will a lever gun fail? How exactly would an AR, AK, SKS, or M1a help them in that situation? If you shoot 5 rounds and the threat hasn't stopped? The AR or whatever would have more rounds. Although I wouldn't want to use an m1a indoors, it has more energy and maybe more stopping power than 30-30.

did try some fast short range COFs side by side. For 5 shots, scores were identical and times were less than 1 second faster with the auto. More practice would cancel that, With more practice, the semi-auto will still be faster.

Lever guns were used as battle rifles, by the...Turks, I believe?
Against people using bolt-actions
Teddy Roosevelt and his motley crew of Rough Riders used a lot of lever action rifles to good effect in Cuba.
Yes, in the 19th century.

It isn't box magazine fed? Partially
It isn't semi auto?
Yes
It fires a cartridge that is by order of magnatude many times more powerful than an AR's widdle bitty .22 caliber pill?
Depends on the lever gun. If it's much more powerful than the 7.62x39, I wouldn't want to use it indoors.
It isn't black?
It doesn't have a pistol grip?
I prefer it have neither of those.

if the lever action is bad, then so is the Garand and m14
They are faster to reload and are semi-auto.

If rifle range is a must then an SKS or even an Enfield or Springfield €™03 bolt action seem better choices then a 30-30 lever gun.
I'd rather have the .30-30 for self-defense.

Could you provide a plausible scenario where 10 rounds of .44mag (94 Trapper) is not enough that 1) is survivable; 2) a 20/30 round mag is what have made it survivable; QUOTE]
If you are attacked by, say, 4 people, 10 rounds might not be enough, considering that it will often take more than one shot to stop someone.

[QUOTE]So maybe a lever is the BEST HD and truck gun, huh? I allways thought the shotgun but maybe not.
How is it better? For HD I won't be shooting more than 15 yards, and a shotgun will go through less walls.

Okay. And one more thing, what's going to be better to come into court with after using your HD gun, an "assualt weapon" or grampa's deer gun?
I know they want to ban it, however, the mini-14 doesn't look like an "assault weapon"


Are you giving anything significant up for defensive handguns if you use revolver vs auto?
Yes, although you also gain some.
Given that handguns are underpowered, is a revolver a liability in self defense (and if so who is going to tell Mr. Cirillo?)?
Cirillo used his fine, while some FBI agents dies because theirs were underpowered,
Isn't a 357 lever gun at least as good as a 357 wheelgun?? Lets see 6 rounds in the revolver vs 9+1 in the lever gun. And the 158hp's grainers will be going faster from the lever gun than 125's will go from a 4" revolver.
Yes, however I think niether is as good as, say, a mini-14.
BTW full (modern lever action level) power 45-70 loads with 400 grain bullets will have trajectory very close to 357/158 grain loads from levergun. I wouldn't want to fire a .45-70 indoors.

Don't worry about overpenetration
It's more of a concern if you have other people living in different rooms of the house.

The lever action's only disadvantage comes from being a little slow to reload. If you choose a rifle chambered for a revolver cartridge, or a 30/30, 35 Rem, 444 ect. with a full magazine. You will 8-10+ rounds at the ready. No, calibers like 30-30 don't usually have that much magazine capacity.Not too many BG's will stand and fight, I hope they don't, however it's not good to count on that.and if you're concerned about running out of ammunition, a pisol belt complete with pistol, extra magaz ines and flashlight makes a fine companion when you grab you're rifle (or in my case shotgun) in the middle of the night. It's better not to have to switch to something with less stopping power, that is more difficult to aim.

Figure you just got to have them quick box magazine taktikewl (which is the correct spelling) reloads? May I recommend to you the Winchester Model 88, the Sako Finnwolf, the BLR, and some variants of the Savage Model 99? It still can't shoot as fast as a semi-auto.Afraid that the .30-30 or the pistol calibers just don't have the range and "knockdown" you need for the two or three gunfights you get into on a daily basis? They probably don't have as much as a shotgun. Seeing as how I've never been in a gunfight, I figure the more I have the better. Please check out all those same rifles. They are available new and used in all manner of real, true rifle cartridges.
Give it up chairborne rangers and mall-ninjas. For anything a civilian or 99.999% of LE is going to do, a lever gun will handle it. Unless you get attacked by more than one person, or you hurt your arm, or perhaps some other scenarios.

I -know- I can ratchet off 170 grains into the black at 15-20 yards faster than I can hit the black with my pop's uber tactical AR carbine he's so fond of.
Most people can't. For most people, a semi-auto will be faster.

If you cant pop the dude in your own house within 7 rounds then you dont need a new rifle Sometimes people just will not stop. Ever shot a deer that just wouldn't stop, or ran 100 yards? Now imagine if it was shooting at you.

The only FEATURE of a weapon that stops a fight is the projectile that enters the target nearest to Center Mass.
Yes, and semi-autos allow you to do that faster.

I enjoy the information that everyone has added. But I know for a fact that a 30/30 lever action rifle like a marlin, has more authority at 100yrds than a .223, 44mag, or a 357 mag. When do you expect to shoot someone at 100 yards?

JImbothefiveth
March 29, 2009, 07:24 PM
Your shot placement is apt to be more sure of itself, again with a levergun than some others with a thirty round mag
Why?

Gunsmiths everywhere know lever actions inside and out.I believe semi-autos are actually more common. Ammo is your only added expense because you don't need 12 30 round magazines stashed away in a closet for when they ban standard mags again. And you only have one magazine.They throw the brass into one pile about 6 feet away instead of into a parabolic arc somewhere between here and the next time zone - this is a real asset to anyone who wants to shoot much with rising ammo costs because reloading saves money. I shoot mostly .22s, so it's not a concern for me.
I have found that I can acutally hit stuff with them, which is more than I can say for most AK's I've shot (AR's and FAL's have also shot well for me though). Define "stuff". You don't need too much accuracy for HD.
Ammo is available and is likely to stay that way. You don't need to stash 7000 rounds for them because of a fear that imported ammo will stop coming in - several domestic manufacturers produce ammo for them every day. They also make it for .223 etc. I believe it's about the same price, people just buy the imported stuff because it's cheaper.



This also brings up the man vs. rifle mentality.
I have seen my dad hit running deer through the neck with one shot from his old 99 Savage. In spite of all the rounds I have fired in practice with all the guns I have owned, I still don't think I could do that with any of the semiauto rifles I have owned. Is that because they are semi-autos or because you can't make the shot? In a head to head fight against a guy with an AK, the guy with the AK would probably lose to my dad.
But at least he would have a full 30 round magazine to give him that warm fuzzy feeling while he was wondering how that old guy managed to get a shot off so fast... What if the same guy had a lever gun and your dad had a semi-auto? I'd think that your dad would still win because he is a good shooter. (Of course, we all know that those who use semi-autos can't shoot. I heard it on the internet)

so he bought both Eagle and Ramline plastic ten rounders for the rifle. Just as a note, I hear the 10/22 magazines they make are jam-o-matics. How did those magazines work?


rather face an incompetent with an EBR than an shooter with a lever action.
So does an EBR automatically make the shooter incompetent? I'd rather have an EBR than lever gun, seeing as how neither one affects my shooting skills.


IMHO the only thing the slide actions have over a Marlin or Winchester levergun is the easily replaced detachable box magazine. However, for vast majority of civilian defensive gun uses where the gun is actually fired, the 6 rounds that a 336's or 94's magazine holds will be enough.
A vast majority of people won't ever have to use it at all. Why handicap yourself?

The only advantage the shotgun has over the LA only applies if it is being used for an offensive role, and that is the ability to load it with the weak hand while it is still in the shoulder The shotgun is also slightly easier to hit with, less likely to go through as many walls, and probably has better stopping power.

arrived at Alpine shooting range in Ft. Worth Tx at the same time that the guards from the fedreral prison were finishing up their qualifications with the AR 15 type rifles at the 50 yard range. The group included two men and two women. I believe the women had done most of the shooting. The man shaped targets were holed in every area except the 10 ring.

I asked the group if they were done and if it was allright to shoot at their targets. They said they were done and to go ahead. They watched as i removed my .357 Marlin and loaded 9 rounds in the magazine.

Normally the range does not like you to shoot faster than one round per second, but since the rangemaster was watching i thought i might get away with breaking the rules this one time.

I fired my 9 rounds as fast as i could lever the gun and get a flash sight picture. The gun never left my shoulder. When i had finished all 9 rounds were in the formally unshot 10 ring. I did have one round that cut the line at 9 o'clock. I ask the supervisor of the guards if i had qualified. He said that i most certainly did. Do you honestly think if they had the lever gun and you had the AR they would have beaten you?

HD/SD w/o raising jury eyebrows (relative to AK)? Check. Relative to a mini-14? Maybe. (And not if it's one of those ones that are painted black.)
Relative to a shotgun, probably not.
Most hunters consider 50 to 75 yards as max for deer size game with a 357 handgun. If you add that to the long gun it just became a 200/225 yard deer rifle.
I don't think a .357 magnum is a 200 yard deer gun. That's probably a bit of a stretch even for 30-30.

you need to go watch some cowboy action shooting and see how fast they can shoot a lever gun and with acuracy..
And people at speed shooting competitions can shoot a semi-auto even faster.

What some exceptional shooters can do doesn't affect what you can do. Most people can shoot faster with a semi-auto.

Turtle56fred
March 29, 2009, 11:45 PM
This is my CAR. 1894CS .357 mag with a 2.5x BSA pistol scope (bad eyes don't you know) and one of the most fun guns I've ever owned.
http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp84/turtle45-70/HPIM3460.jpg

lonewolf_75
April 8, 2009, 04:35 PM
New to this forum, just purchased a new Marlin Model 336 Trapper 30-30 with a 16.25" barrell.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=95901&stc=1&d=1239219171

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/default.aspx?item=336SDT

This gun was severely overpriced (only 500 were produced) but is absolutely beautiful, the black/gray composite stock looks much better in person than in photos and goes perfect with the stainless. My long time deer rifle was a standard 336 and I wanted a second rifle in 30-30, am not a bit disappointed with the new purchase. It's worth noting though that due to the shorter barrell the Trapper only holds 5 in the tube rather than 6. Luckily though I still have an SKS at the ready for the impending Chinese invasion and/or zombie apocalypse lol. Can't wait to put some lead downrange.

phoglund
April 8, 2009, 05:06 PM
Very nice Lone Wolf!

Welcome to the forum. I'm a real fan of the "Trapper" style lever gun and that one is about the best I've ever beheld! Give us a review when you've put that lead down range you mentioned! :)

Nematocyst
April 10, 2009, 04:23 AM
Can't wait to put some lead downrange.Lonewolf, welcome to THR.

Please keep us posted about how the SDT performs.

Here's one review (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5492527&postcount=2191) by one of our best writers. In short, he likes it.

Me? I think I'm going to have my smith lop off my 336A
to somewhere between 16.5" - 18" and call it good.

gunsandreligion
April 10, 2009, 09:56 AM
Only problem lever guns have tactically is working the lever from the prone positiona 30 round mag for a AR sticks down more than a lever on a 30/30 also I can easily work a lever prone

amd6547
April 10, 2009, 10:56 AM
There is no doubt that a lever action can serve as a SD weapon. I have used three in that role over the years. Marlin 44mag, Winchester Trapper 30-30, and a rossi 44mag trapper. Any one of the three would have worked fine, though the 30-30 is overpowered for my SD needs. I didn't like the requirement of the lever action that it be kept loaded.
For a while, I went with various 9mm carbines, and was happy with their accuracy at extended range and the ability to keep them handy with a loaded mag separate. I have also occasionally kept my AR or AK as my HD longarm. Some here have derided the "long" 30rd mags. When I kept my AR shorty, I often used a 10rd mag as primary, with a 20rd reload. The AK, I often use with the short 20rd.
While I own both an AK and an AR, neither of which I would have a problem using for SD, I now use my CMP M1 carbine in that role. It is light, points well, has great sights, and the 30carbine round in soft point form offers just the right amount of power in a HD long-arm for me. With a 15rd mag in the gun and a GI pouch on the stock, I have 45 rounds to grab and go. It should be fairly jury friendly, and if an overzealous prosecutor attacks my "assault weapon", I can look at the jury and say "but, the government sold it to me..."
Having made MY choice, I would never try to dissuade someone else who has decided they prefer the lever gun. The lever gun works fine for SD, and has a long history of military, law enforcement, and private use. The gate loaded tube mag just doesn't fit my needs.

lonewolf_75
April 29, 2009, 03:26 AM
Went on a weekend fishing trip with the girlfriend and took some .22 caliber guns along since she'd never shot before (Henry lever, Ruger 10/22, and Browning Buck Mark pistol). Of course, I also had to break in the new "Trapper Type" Model 336 30-30.

I put around 35 rounds through it at 50 yards, mainly a hodgepodge of old ammo of various types just to get rid of it. As a hunting round for my early 80s standard 336, I've committed to Winchester Super-X powerpoint 170 grain, and have been stocking up like a banchee ever since.

I was pretty happy with the shooting experience, but a few quick things are worth noting. First, I really liked the high visibility green/red sights, until I actually used them to shoot. The sights seemed very bulky to me while aiming at the target, even at 50 yards, so I may be looking at some replacement options in the future.

Also, the recoil seemed pretty stout, though not ridiculously so due to the recoil pad. Even so, I felt my self flinching a bit anticipating it, so switched back to the .22's for a while before returning to the 30-30. This may be due more to the fact that I rarely shoot more than several rounds through my other 336 when sighting it in for deer season, and am just not used to much more than that in one sitting.

Overall, it's a very fun and handy little gun and though I still think it was overpriced, I'm satisfied with the purchase. Since my other 336 has a scope, I bought the Trapper primarily as a super short range, iron sights rifle that could be used for home defense and heavy brush deer hunting, and it definitely fits the bill. I'd be very curious to see a side by side comparison of the 16.25" 336SDT vs. a regular 20" 336 when it comes to accuracy.

In short, the SDT is a great "tactical" 30-30 levergun, if (and only if) there ever was one.

JFrame
April 29, 2009, 10:58 AM
a 30 round mag for a AR sticks down more than a lever on a 30/30 also I can easily work a lever prone

Agreed...I had always heard the old saw that lever guns couldn't be operated prone, so just for grins, I tried it out with my Trapper .357.

No problem.

Thingster
April 30, 2009, 12:34 AM
Right now on RFDTV "Wednesday Night at the Range", "Shooting Gallery" is covering the tactical lever action rifle. Seriously.

icebones
April 30, 2009, 09:30 AM
back in the day they called the lever action Henry "that danm yankee rifle that you load on sunday and shoot all week"

do i own a lever action? heck yea, a few of 'em
would i ever use one for SD? maybe. if my 870 and bushmaster m4 ever got taken out of the fight.

you do what you can with what you have i guess.

ghoster
April 30, 2009, 01:37 PM
i have a lever 30-30. i dont need bullet spray because i aim. one shot from my 30-30 and bg head explodes. :D

it is actually very easy to chamber another round without moving the gun at all. i can also reload with out moving gun, yep i can hold gun agenst shoulder with one hand and load with the other. all without looking!!!!:what:

learned it in school right after chew gum and walk at same time class.:neener:

if your in a true shtf situation then pick up the first bg's gun (that got his head blown off ) and now you have a real assult rifle, grab his mags too, he wont be needing them.--- might as well snatch the gernades as well.:evil:

JShirley
April 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
This thread is almost six years old.

An omyGawdzillion posts on any thread do not automatically make it worth reading: as a matter of fact, the longer the thread goes, the less useful, per page, it typically is.

I'm putting a bullet into this one's brainpan. Die, zombie thread.

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