Where is your breaking point?

Yeah, I know: every day there's a post on THR, TFL, AR15.com or another forum about SHTF scenarios. No doubt such fantasies have existed since the first formation of the Wog versus Gog neanderthal political dynasties.

But something is growing, and not for the better. The political landscape is more divided, whether national, statewide, or even local.

Believe it or not, young members of THR, but there was a time when politicians of both parties actually respected the Second Amendment. JFK, Hubert Humphrey and other Democrats didn't use the terms "hunters and sportsmen." They said flat-out that the Second Amendment means what it says.

That era was long ago and far away.

In its place, we have a system where the Republicans take for granted the votes of the gun owners, the fundamentalist Christians, and other groups that can find no haven in the Democrat party.

And the Democrat party takes for granted that Blacks, Hispanics, gays, and other interest groups will simply pull the voting lever for the "D" ticket.

I was on the phone today with gun shop owners from all over the country. One, in Illinois, told me that she couldn't commit to any sort of advertising until she saw the outcome of the proposed AW ban/registration scheme proposed by Daley and Governor Blago.

If the bill passed, she said, she and her husband would sell their gun store for whatever they could get for it, and move to another state.

How in the name of God did things ever get this far?

More to the point, what will people do?

I'm not a hero. I'm a coward. But I'm reaching the point where I feel that the potential sacrifice of my own life, if I thought such a sacrifice would achieve the means to a truly free society, would be justified.

And that idea just scares the hell out of me.

Hrmmm. I have one, and each year that passes I feel like I'm getting closer to it. Believe it or not, gun rights are no longer #1 on the list of infringements I'm most concerned with.

I do have a "line in the sand," but I've chosen not to share it publically on the Internet.

Sorry.

My breaking point will come after I see others reach their breaking points. I would hate to be the only one showing up for the revolution.

I have one. But that is all I feel comfortable saying.

Frankly, we are past what probably SHOULD be our breaking points, but that's just they way things go. You typically don't go all ballistic until you are FAR past what you are willing to accept.

I think all of our breaking points for practical purposes are pretty close to one anothers. We'll all know it when we are there.


John

Derek, 44Brent, I know what you mean.

I never, ever thought I'd reach this point, to be thinking this way.

And, frankly, I don't know that I'd ever be the "one" to go first.

There is no longer any representative government. There's just two political parties jockeying for control, and neither represents the interests of the citizens.

Both of these parties have guaranteed their survival by legislative fiat.

"He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out their substance."

Well, gee. I didn't have a particularly good year for my business last year. But you can bet that His Officers came and ate out my substance. I'm usually on top of what my tax liabilities are, but I was surprised by this one.

Despite the promises of our esteemed Governor Doyle not to raise property taxes, my taxes went up anyway. It seems that the governor thinks my home is worth more than what the market would bring.

And then there's the issue of guns. Yeah, guns as in the possession of weapons for defense of self, family, and other innocents.

Since 2002, Governor Doyle has insisted that We the People don't need to worry about self-defense.

I guess that's why 12,000 Wisconsinites are the victims of homicide, attempted homicide, rape, robbery, and assault every year.

What I wish would happen to Doyle, his wife and his children can't be posted here. The moderators would bleep my comments out immediately, and rightfully so.

As I get older, I have less to lose. And, as I get older, I get a whole lot more angry.

To be honest when others stand up then I will as well. I have no desire to rush foolishly ahead alone, but I do find myself growing more and more disgusted with our political climate with each passing day.

My breaking point will come after I see others reach their breaking points.

44Brent, I hate to say it, but if we're all waiting on each other, then we're only just talking. Our collective breaking point will be, well, when we're all broken by those who should be our servants and employees.

I suppose my breaking point would be, in vague terms, a very up-close and personal event. A moment of decision to ensure my own future and freedom, despite what those on my doorstep may wish to do.

Until then, vote. Educate. Speak up. Don't hide the fact that you own guns - weapons even. I used to try to keep my firearms ownership a secret, on the advice of some well-known authors. These days, I'm more up front than ever, in the hopes that gun owners will seem normal.

And we have many more tools at our disposal besides the Second Amendment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
http://www.constitution.org/uslaw/16amjur2nd.htm
http://www.flexyourrights.org/

Do I detect a whiff of desperation in Illinois from the ISRA? I always had a fantasy of something that goes like this:

Legislature passes a bill banning semi-automatic rifles. Owners of soon-to-be contraband camps out at the state capitol with their hardware one day before the law takes effect. On the day the law takes effect, break open the cases, load the mags, and invite the state police to come get the now-contraband hardware. That would be an interesting choice for Gov. Blagojevich wouldn't it?

I think that the gun owners in IL might just get an opportunity to do something like this.

http://www.isra.org/

March 21, 2007 - Springfield Report

Today three very bad bills came out of the House Executive Committee. They are: HB758 (background checks on private transfers), HB873 (so called "assault weapons" and .50 caliber ban) and HB1078 (one gun a month). All votes were 8 to 5. The votes were all along party lines, with the Democrats voting for the bill. All of these bills are going to the floor of the House of Representatives.

Today beside Todd Vandermyde testifying, we also had Ronnie Barrett (of Barrett rifles) Mark Westrom (of Armalite) Joel Brunsvold (National Shooting Sports Foundation) and Mac MacWilliams. All were brilliant. The problem is none of it mattered, this is Springfield. Now, we the lobbyists, have to meet with each legislator. We need you to call your legislators and tell them you oppose these bills as well as SB16, which is in the Senate.

If you get this alert and are not an ISRA member, please join. You can also make a legislative donation on our website.

This is going to be a long and tough battle-hang in there.

Thank you for your support.

Richard A. Pearson

===========================

Disclosure: I no longer live in IL.

But I'm reaching the point where I feel that the potential sacrifice of my own life, if I thought such a sacrifice would achieve the means to a truly free society, would be justified.
Just keep in mind, in the wrong climate the wrong actions will wind up with a less free society as your legacy. Choose wisley.

Past that Derek Zeanah summed up my views well. Everyone talks about how the 2nd amendment is supposed to protect the others but on gun forums I often see people willing to exchange the others so they can keep the 2nd. Sometimes I wonder just what people are trying to protect.

Do I detect a whiff of desperation in Illinois from the ISRA?
I think its pure honesty and a little bit of frustration. While more and more states are allowing concealed carry and passing firearms positive bills, us Illinois residents are still working hard just to keep what rights we have and not allow our state to descend as far as California has gotten. I'm very thankful that we have legislators, voters, and manufacturers who haven't thrown in the towel yet and are continuing to fight.

I live in Virginia, what can I do to help?

44Brent, that's what I'm talking about.

For years we've had public hearings on Wisconsin's Concealed Carry bill.

These hearings have been nothing but theater, a charade. The votes are arranged in advance. No amount of testimony from either side has swayed the votes. Even the testimony of Theresa Sweet--who was gang-raped across the street from the police station in her town, and whose attackers have never been found--couldn't convince even one committee member to reconsider his/her stance.

This is all just hard-boiled, pure politics.

And, if our lives and the lives of people such as Theresa Sweet, can be sold so cheaply, then it stands to reason that the legislators who so cavalierly pass judgement on the lives of people such as Theresa are even more cheap.

So, let's set the price. I propose that Theresa Sweet's life is worth 5X the life of any legislator, given what she's endured.

Do I hear an offer of 7X? 10X?

One thing I've learned is that even the most docile critters---from rabbits to squirrels to mice--will turn rabidly vicious when cornered.

Art, Oleg, and other moderators: I'm not advocating the overthrow of the US government.

But, when the husband and wife owners of a small Illinois gun store are forced to choose between keeping their small business, or being forced out of the state...

Well, maybe it's time.

I think that the gun owners in IL might just get an opportunity to do something like this.

http://www.isra.org/



OH BLOODY FING HELL :banghead: . I have been watching SB16 this whole time, and they sneak in a house bill. My resentment just grew deeper :fire: .

I am lucky enough to live in Virginia where we have a deep gun culture. It's a sad state of affairs that I have never been charged with any crimes (except 1 seatbelt ticket) but if me and my gun safe moved to California I would likely serve life in prison, that's just insane :fire:

I am however encouraged by the "grass roots" effort that is very active with 2A supporters. I live in Virginia, but if there is something I could do to help you illiinois folks please let me know.

Help vote in senators who support national reciprocity. Or support a federal CCW permit which forces all states to recognize that the 2nd ammendment is not something they can destroy at will.

Being a smoker I feel your pain :rolleyes: Little bit by little it all falls down. I suppose our freedom is subject to the law of entropy, this seems to be a habit in human history. I think this is a manifestation of the battle between good and not good.
The key to the gun control strategy is little bit by little bit :fire: this keeps us all from being FED UP at once.
I've watched predators on TV single out they're prey from the herd and devour it, does this ring a bell ?

National reciprocity, or any law that requires states to recognize other states' permits, is a violation of the Tenth Amendment.

Illinois recognizes Wisconsin drivers licences as a courtesy, not as a Constitutional requirement. Wisconsin only recognizes Illinois drivers licenses as a revenue enhancer. ;)

There's something out there brewing. If I, the self-admitted coward that I am, feel some strong urges, then surely there must be others who feel the same way, or even more intensely.

The beginning of the breaking point began with the election of Ronald Reagan. The Teddy Kennedy's didn't see it coming, and won't forget.

But there's a break amongst us "little people."

And it scares me.

Speaking plainly and only for myself, I'm already past that hypothetical breaking point. The "Laws" imposed apon the citizens of this Republic by our supposed betters have long since ceased to be of any relevance to me or my course of actions. Some now in place happen to fall inline with my personel code of ethical behavior, so I "obey" them because its the right thing to do in my eyes. Those that do not meet that code, I ignore as just so much threats apon the wind. A scant few have tested that, and come to realize the errors of their ways.

I'm well aware of the possible ramifications should "The Law" take official notice of our difference of opinion and am prepared to face those consequences should that day come to pass.

This applies to all things, not just the codification of our innate right to arms.

The most that those who seek to impose their will apon me is kill me. That has little weight with me. I've lived and died before, and I'll be back after this incarnation to do it again.

Whatever the breaking point is, I think it would be damn foolish for someone to organize an attempt to physically go against the federal government. Even in the case of revolution, the restructuring would be devastating and open the citizens to economic predation from other countries--indeed, other countries may even attempt to support a federal resistance in a hope to overthrow the federal government. Taking America to a civil war would be immediately disastrous with a bleak outlook to the far future.

I cannot predict the same about a focused action on a single state government. In any case, we need to start voting for candidates who support our individual rights rather than voting for the second-most-evil candidate. That would mean giving up ground in the short-term, but sending a message that others will hear and heed over several election cycles. The restricting laws that happen in the meanwhile can be overturned, if you elect the proper officials.

The Democracy is in its decline. People aka "voters" don't care and most don't vote. If they do its (R) or (D) toting the party line. I wish someone would prove me wrong, but I fear it will not happen.

My suggestion is a Million Gun Owner March on DC. A million legally armed US Citizens standing up for the 2nd Amendment, all in Washington, DC. That sounds like an event that could change things. Or, we could all be arrested and sent off to a prison city in railroad cars never to be seen again. This will never happen though.

:banghead: My .02

As I get older, I have less to lose. And, as I get older, I get a whole lot more angry.

This old timer has noticed the same phenomenon. It makes me wonder how old the founding fathers a.) actually were, and b.) were in relation to the average age of people in their day.

I have a sneaking suspicion they may have been old timers who'd had it up to here. "Give me liberty or give me death" may mean different things at different times in one's life.

I think it would be damn foolish for someone to organize an attempt to physically go against the federal government. Even in the case of revolution, the restructuring would be devastating and open the citizens to economic predation from other countries--indeed, other countries may even attempt to support a federal resistance in a hope to overthrow the federal government. Taking America to a civil war would be immediately disastrous with a bleak outlook to the far future.

A few problems with that course of action.

1.) No matter how well equiped you think you are .gov has x10 plus infinity what you do. ARs, AKs, and FALS wont take a nation and hold it. Logistics, air support, medical facilities are all needed for this. The most you could do without significant outside support from the likes of China, Russia, or the EU (and would you really want their involvement ?) is be a thorn in their paw. Also plan for the media to paint you as a anarchist nutjobs, and in the eyes of most Americans you will be. You would be hunted down and delt with as terrorists by the greatest military force the world has ever known.

2.) Like it or not we live in a global society. There are too many national economies dependent on stability in the U.S. If such a movement were to gain traction troops from China, France, the U.K and others would be over here in a heart beat. Needless to say they wouldnt be on our side.

3.) If against all odds such a feat were pulled off the aftermath would be horrific. The economy would tank, society would begin to breakdown, and worse yet our military strength would be beyond crippled. Our assets overseas (oil) would be easy pickings for China and India. Not to mention America itself would be left open to outside invasions in the aftermath of a civil war. I suspect we would find ourselves fighting Mexico to hold our teritory in the S.W, and Russia over Alaska.

In the end the reality is the only way things will change is peacefully at the polls, or violently with a military coup (which likely would only make us worse off in the end).

A country that has more freedom, more respect for the rule of law and individual rights! Let's all move to......uh....where is it we can go?

I realize what everyone is talking about. There ARE people in this country who will and do trample on the rights we cherish. But honestly, if you've seen much of the world, where would a person go and still enjoy the kind of freedoms (however restricted) that we have here?

I've noticed an interesting change in generational attitudes as I've advanced in age. My dad's generation tended (speaking in really broad generalities) to get more complacent, more "conservative", and less likely to engage in activism the older they grew. In other words they were on a glide path toward retirement and were simply not interested in agitation of any kind.

Not so with my generation. I sense a growing radicalization as a reaction against political manifestation of moral rot. I sense an unwillingness to tolerate a lot of what passes for government and I also sense a growing uneasy in viewing what seems to be building on the horizon. Trouble is afoot and the taxpaying class sees it.

is there just "one" breaking point, or is our experience a series of small daily breaking points accumulating from the slide towards corrosive liberalism, collectivism, appeasement, and feminization?

don't get me started, man.

Breaking point? I doubt such a place exists to the majority. Some will have "enough" and will be rounded up like criminals not patriots. Americans have no stomach for sustained violence. They are not willing to make the sacrifice. When this undefined point comes, it will be too late just like in Nazi Germany. Don't expect anyone to save you.

Whatever the breaking point is, I think it would be damn foolish for someone to organize an attempt to physically go against the federal government.

Yes, it would. OTOH there are people like Robert Levy (www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/17/AR2007031701055.html) who are willing to put more on the line to fight for our individual rights than most of us could ever afford.

Breaking point? Wasnt 1934 the breaking point? Another one of FDR's (He is the most overrated president other than JFK) schemes, this one to disarm the public. I am going to say - most gun owners are lazy. Long as they have their 30.06 in their closet to hunt deer with they dont care. The gun owners of American arent the same demographic as women, gays, seniors, Christians, or Muslims. They dont vote in a massive 'block' - if they did, gun owners like our dear friend Rosie (only celebs and democrats should have guns in her world) would vote the same way we do! A good number of the gun owners in this country might buy a .38, sit it in their drawer where it may not see the light of day for 25 years.

And trying to get 'action' like a 'million gun owners march' on Washington you might get 500 rednecks to come with you. Not only that but youd get arrested there.

OTOH there are people like Robert Levy who are willing to put more on the line to fight for our individual rights than most of us could ever afford.

While I cheer for Mr.Levy and all the good work he has done, writing checks and arguing cases in court isnt quite on the same level as spilling blood on the killing fields. Having said that I dont see where you meant to go with this. If I had the time and money I would love nothing more than to take up attacking Illinois ban on concealed weapons and full-autos. Too bad most of us are nine to fivers that have to work to live.

That would be the question - how many could you/we get to show up for a march? I am not talking an armed march on a capitol building, I am talking a peaceful assembly, say in Springfield BEFORE they vote on the law. CHicago? How 'bout in Washington? Could enough assemble to even make an impression? How 'bout in Albany? NYC? Simultaneous protests like the anti-war rallies?

Hunters are a small percentage of gun owners, and I would guess an even larger percentage don't even know what we are up against. But still, are there enough who would get together?

Start some lists - see how many you can get to commit to assemble, in some way shape or form. And go from there.

Careful What You Wish For


Most Common: Incident (a riot or stand-off is not a revolution).
Less Likely: Failed revolution
Rare: Successful revolution -- but that makes things worse.
Near Miraculous: Successful revolution -- and that makes things better.

Likelihood decreases down the list with the last being almost impossible.

Revolution is fools gold. It was a near miracle that 1776 both succeeded and made things better.

Best we work to simultaniously save our liberties and avoid revolution because no matter how much we might wish it, most times, liberty and revolution are enemies of each other.

"Liberté, égalité, fraternité -- chop off everyone's head!"

It was a near miracle that 1776 both succeeded and made things better.

Hey maybe we could ask France for help again!

Shield,

On a post I made a few days ago, I vaguely referred to something like what you are describing-- something like a Million-Man-March for gunowners.

Since that post, I have been toying with the logistics of organizing one. It could be done, but will take work.

Here is a brief analysis of what would be required (without getting too much into details):

1. A Web-site needs to be created.

2. A location must be established. I would prefer going straight to Capital Hill.

3. A tenative date needs to be established. Ideally, one that has some significance and when Congress IS in session.

4. NRA, SAF, JPFO, GOA, and regional organizations need to be contacted for assistence, endorsement, publicity, and possibly sponsorship.

5. A number of volunteers need to step up to handle things locally-- ideally broken down by state. These persons would also need to help with answering e-mails.

6. Press releases need to be prepared so that spokespersons can get on local news channels.

7. Certain figures need to be contacted as speakers once we get to D.C.

8. Info about this needs to get plastered all over the gun forums.



I am actually considering going ahead and registering a domain name to start this process.

John

JWarren

Sounds good. Anything to counter that bogus 'Million Mom March'.

Get the NRA and GOA on board first. They'll help you set it up.

I do have a "line in the sand," but I've chosen not to share it publically on the Internet.


I was pushed across that line in Iraq based on someone else's lies, BS, and greed.

I will not stand for it at home when it affects the freedom and real security of
my family. Sure, I'll pay my taxes like everyone has to in order to keep the
gov-goons off my back. It would be the same thing if I owned a shop in a
mafia-controlled section of the city and had to pay my weekly "protection"
money. The options and consequences have been weighed for that and
Caesar gets his due.

Otherwise, I'm tired of all the bullcr@p. I'm tired of someone saying my rifle
might become illegal because it has a detachable mag on it; I'm tired of someone
saying I have to pay money to "build a bridge to nowhere" in Alaska so some
future real estate developer can make his personal millions; I'm tired of some
governor issuing an executive order saying my daughters have to get an
experimental STD vaccine --and then find out he was getting money from the
company that makes the stuff!

People, you can't be afraid to say it. It's a sad place in the world when
Americans huddle on their keyboards and won't even express themselves out
of fear yet Pakistani lawyers --yes lawyers :D -- can take to the streets to
make their point publicly know.

I might not be afraid to say what I mean, but I'm not really going to be the
leader of some political movement. You'll never see me in the news running
for anything.

The only time you'll see me in the news is when I'm arrested for punching out
some guard at a security check because the guard went from patting down to
groping to fondling one of my daughters. I can tell you we're not far from that
now.

J,

I have very little idea as to what is involved - detail-wise. Maybe start by just getting a list going of who MIGHT be interested, how many might be likely, to take part. i.e. actively show up somewhere, to see if all that other stuff is worthwhile?

Kelo was my breaking point, I'm just waiting for the signal

There was much discussion in 2003/2004 about a "Million Gun March" or "Million Gunowner March."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=83357&highlight=million+gunowner+march

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=5123&highlight=stanley+million

TBL,

I think a lot of the folks that are hesitant to say anything do so because they don't want to "be taken out of the game" meaninglessly or too early.

That isn't fear, it is prudence.


It is far easier to pick off those that are fed up one at a time than all at once. When someone does explode, they'd be painted as a wacko all over the news, and very little sympathy will exist for that person-- in the MSM OR in our community. They'd stand alone and hang alone.

Sometimes people have a difficult time putting themselves in others' situations. Where one man may have been pushed over the line, others will not have been. They will arm-chair quarterback it, analyze it, and criticize it-- all while never having to LIVE it. No one wants to be cut out of the herd by the predators.

It would take a huge groundswell of activitism all at once to get a lot of people activated.


John

J,

I have very little idea as to what is involved - detail-wise. Maybe start by just getting a list going of who MIGHT be interested, how many might be likely, to take part. i.e. actively show up somewhere, to see if all that other stuff is worthwhile?

Shield,

I think you are on the right track. While I don't have any practical experience in organizing something like this, I do have training. I have my Masters in Public Relations, and a lot of my best coursework was in "PR campaigns."

As soon as I am able, I will start getting some feelers out.


John

What about the "unintended consequences" scenario... That is, an uprising which convinces the PTB to return to a constitutional government, not a complete overthrow.

Regarding a breaking point, although I am sure one exists, the elites in power with the Ds and Rs behind their names won't allow it to get that far. They want to keep their jobs.

OTOH, the socialist mainstream media has been way past my breaking point for several years. I literally hate and despise them.

I have been fed their propaganda for all of my 50 + years, and I have seen my country suffer for it. There should be an accounting.

The 50 Million gun march.... anti-gun folks picketing along the fringes.... ooh, sounds fun. All that camo would be beautiful.

Remember the movie with Charlton Heston
Planet Of The Apes ?....Well it my soon come to pass ,You know the Forbiden Zone ...Well the apes are in the congress.

There was much discussion in 2003/2004 about a "Million Gun March" or "Million Gunowner March."

Remember, the secret meeting place is at
N 38, 53.856 W 077, 02.202 :D

Seriously though folks, here in DC people gather and march and protest all the damn time... and then go home a day or two later and DC returns to "business as usual". Those of us who live here see it too often to do much other than smile and take pictures and hope that the "protest du jour" won't screw up our morning or evening commute too much.

Mass protests and marches on the Capitol are a "flash in the pan" event and they DO NOT WORK.

If you want to have an effect past being a news soundbite you should stick to long-term campaigning of your elected officials. It's not sexy, it's not loud and public, it requires a long term committment, but it is what really works.

I agree with Glock .45. I think such a revolution if it were to be so large as to overthrow the gov't would cast our country into a downward spiral as seen in many third world countries. Then our great country would be ripe for invasion. However, there is no way that our government will be overthrown by its citizens. The military is far too powerful and I do not think the military will join with the "rebels". In a perfect world it would, but it won't.
A much more likely scenario is that the US leads the way toward the NWO government. From there I believe there are only 1 of 2 choices to be made. That will be my definite line in the sand.
The next step in achieving this NWO is by developing the NAU (North America Union). This will be a wake up call for many many people and will probably push some to the brink.

They'd stand alone and hang alone.

Sometimes people have a difficult time putting themselves in others' situations. Where one man may have been pushed over the line, others will not have been. They will arm-chair quarterback it, analyze it, and criticize it-- all while never having to LIVE it.

Well understood. Most people won't react until personally put into such
a situation. It will take being financially ruined through no direct fault of their
own and having something terrible happen to them at the hands of the
State before they go Rob Roy. It's all in context of the time and what
other people choose to do that makes the difference between an individual
who goes to prison and someone who becomes a leader of government. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Roy_MacGregor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpN93TT8nT4

It was not long after such events that my ancestors went to the New World.
Once settled and the next generation born they had no indication that they
would gain anything from the Revolution, but joined it anyway. For us now
there is no where else left to go. People can't wait until things get so bad
that they can't regain what they once had without a more major cost to
themselves or that defeat is actually certain.

Now or until then I for one will not stand by if family members are jailed, raped
or whatever today or under some potential future tyranny. If my neighbors
choose to stand around and consume like sheep, so be it.

No one wants to be cut out of the herd by the predators.

Our way should be neither that of sheep nor wolf, but to be like an eagle.

We won't be fighting our military, just the JBTs hired by the alphabet agencies, and maybe a few misguided National Guardsmen and local police. Our freedom is under the thumb of these agencies and the legislators who created those agencies, and the legislators who will not eliminate those agencies.

Our legislators have turned their positions into foney-balnoey jobs since they delegated their powers to all these bureaucracies. Our legislators rely too much on the Courts to decide things they themselves won't touch. Therein lies the problem, and where the cure needs to be injected.

When we need to respond is when we are the target of these agencies efforts and not the external or constitutionally criminal forces these agencies are supposedly there to protect us from. You know, like when the BATFE starts sting operations on gun dealers, or when posters on internet forums are baited and goaded, or when border guards are slapped in prison for doing their job.

It's the supposed leaders - our misrepresentatives - who are the problem, and the agencies they now surround themselves with tend to isolate them from the blame. Those misrepresentatives are who needs to go, my friends. They put up the shield(the agencies) and they are the ones - if replaced with people who will actually represent us and fulfill the the obligations they applied for - who will eliminate those bureaucracies and go back to doing the job themselves. When that happens, they won't have time to squabble incessently, or to interfere with our lives, freedoms, and rights.

So, before we do need to take to the streets of DC and throw lead into the halls of Congress, let us not hesitate to let them know that we know what to do. Cast votes in the same fashion. Encourage everyone you know to do the same.

Honorable people in office can cure all our ills in one session of Congress. All it will take is people who know how to handle the reins, which horses to ride, and which horses to turn out to pasture.

The time is nigh, my friends. Be prepared. But, don't start it. All the justification we will need is when they demand you turn in your guns and come to collect them. When that happens, they show their hand, because there is only one reason to disarm a people and that is to enslave them.

Our supposed protectors and servants in Washington, D. C. still have the opportunity and plenty of time on their hands to turn things around. Just let them know we won't wait forever.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. If that doesn't convince you to take a stand and protect your inalienable rights and freedoms, nothing will. If that doesn't convince you to maintain your personal sovereignty, you are already someone else's subject. If you don't secure your rights and freedoms to maintain your personal sovereignty now, it'll be too late to come to me for help when they come for you. I will already be dead because I had to stand alone. B.E.Wood

Mine was reached in the early 1990's, it involved property rights. Someone else mentioned the Kelo (eminent domain) case. I owned land in what became the Columbia Gorge National Scenic area (OR/WA). In our situation, "just compensation" wasn't even on the table. The USDA Forest Service discovered they could effectively confiscate land through restrictive zoning ordinances. Driven by radical environmentalists out of Portland OR, a "Gorge commission" was created to decide the details through a process called a "management plan". The "details" would curl your toenails.

I remember spending untold hours, over 2-3 years, in planning sessions, numerous meetings with Congressmen and Senators (during election season), only to see the official plan "details" (which had the force of law) resemble nothing like what was discussed. Afterward, Senators would proclaim the final plan was not what they intended with the original legislation, yet they had no power to intervene!:neener: Lists of campaign contributions from the enviro groups to these politicians told the real story. The fix was in.

Life changing moment: Standing before the superior court judge, with a list of violations of state and federal law committed by the Commission, which would have voided the effect of their rulings. Hearing the judge agree with the violations, but since the particular issue involved a "bi-state commission", neither state nor federal law applied. In fact, the Commission operated under "regional law", for which NO STATUTES APPLIED (they would have to write the law as they went along!).

For those who have more recently crossed the line, or feel they are approaching it, welcome to the other side!:uhoh:

ZeSpectre: Remember, the secret meeting place is at N 38, 53.856 W 077, 02.202 In that oblong room?

By the way, I wasn't suggesting a Million Gun March as a good or bad idea -- just pointing out that it was discussed already.

By the way, I wasn't suggesting a Million Gun March as a good or bad idea -- just pointing out that it was discussed already.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like I was jumping on you. Just wanted to let people know the -real- DC/Gov't attitude towards those protests. (Along with the "bring 'em on cause it helps the tourist trade").

Life changing moment: Standing before the superior court judge, with a list of violations of state and federal law committed by the Commission, which would have voided the effect of their rulings....

In my father's (family) business we had a similar situation with copyright
infringement where we were the victims. Judge agreed the other side had
done wrong and awarded us: $1. Yes. One Dollar. This was despite the
other company making tens of thousands of dollars (wholesale) off the
infringed product. This was almost 20 years ago.

My court experiences didn't stop after that, but that is another story. LOL,
I don't want people reading my previous post thinking I'm some kid who got
p-ed off in the desert --I had to get an age waiver before that final round
of illumination began.

In fact, the Commission operated under "regional law", for which NO STATUTES APPLIED (they would have to write the law as they went along!).


So therefore since "no statutes applied" there should be no enforcement
applied either and you guys should have been able to ignore the zoning bullcr@p
they were foisting on you.....oh, wait, suddenly they find enforcement does apply ;)

See, that is how they play the game. Whether it's the Congress saying, gee,
"we didn't see that last little insertion in the Patriot Act" or your little local
officials pulling the same thing regarding the final paperwork as approved,
you NEVER see a scramble on their part to undo it! They could literally
pass another law to undo what they just did, but they don't.

They won't because that was what they intended to do all along. The hearings,
meetings, study groups, commissions, etc are all pretty much just busy work
and stage play. Sorry to be blunt, ppl, but's it's the old smoke and mirrors.

This is why I always become concerned when they start talking about guns...again.

I have found this thread interesting. But, I'm wondering how many people nation wide share the same feelings as the various posters to this thread. There have been about 50 responses here, does that mean there are 50,000-500,000 who share your sentiments?

... brings up a good point, such as that "Regional" thing with no law on the subject. Here's the deal: Government of any kind - local, "regional", or federal - may not do anything unless they are specifically given the power to do so by the people. Period. Go back and reclaim your property on those grounds. You've been robbed.

The same goes for you people whose guns were confiscated in New Orleans. You've been been robbed as well - at gunpoint!

Remember, folks: We, the law abiding citizens, have done nothing to warrant any of this. It is all the result of opportunism by unscrupulous officials. Hunting land "confiscated". Arms to hunt with, and defend yourself with, and to revolt with; confiscated. All this has but one logical end: Dependence upon the government and enslavement to it. And for what, a promise of peace?

Woody

You can live free holding the stock and possibly never have to pull the trigger, or you can try to live free at the muzzle. I prefer to hold the stock and live free. Those at the muzzle never seem to fare quite so well. B.E.Wood

I have found this thread interesting. But, I'm wondering how many people nation wide share the same feelings as the various posters to this thread. There have been about 50 responses here, does that mean there are 50,000-500,000 who share your sentiments?

Who knows! But we may soon see, won't we!

Woody

Seriously though folks, here in DC people gather and march and protest all the damn time... and then go home a day or two later and DC returns to "business as usual". Those of us who live here see it too often to do much other than smile and take pictures and hope that the "protest du jour" won't screw up our morning or evening commute too much.

Mass protests and marches on the Capitol are a "flash in the pan" event and they DO NOT WORK.

If you want to have an effect past being a news soundbite you should stick to long-term campaigning of your elected officials. It's not sexy, it's not loud and public, it requires a long term committment, but it is what really works.


I don't disagree with you on this assessment, but I think it is short sighted.

Frankly, a march on DC isn't for the benefit of the residents of DC. It is a statement of going to Capital Hill.


Without a doubt, the initial march would have marginal impact on a practical level. However, there are foundational benefits:


1. The initial news "pop" of publicity.

2. Never before has gun owners made such a direct statement. Precident events would tend to have more impact on the Hill.

3. A march would become a focal point event that could and would be referenced by both supporters and detractors for years in the future.

4. Frankly, I believe it would shock Congress that we could mount such an effort that takes real effort for a single event.

A march is only a SMALL part of an overall long-term campaign. In any PR campaign, there are numerous smaller tactics used. Some take more effort than others to pull off. Taken individually, there may be very little evidence of results. That is where SO MANY people can't see the forest for the trees. You do not take a single event and judge its effectiveness alone, nor to you find the absolute best tactic and use it alone. Doing that greatly diminishes its potential effectiveness. EVERY tactical action is part of an overall STRATEGIC campaign. The not-so-apparent results of one action support and compound the results of other actions. In our efforts to be as effecient as possible, we make the mistake of tossing out things that could make a tremendous difference when used in an overall campaign. Remember, we SHOULD already be writing our congressmen, representatives, and voting. The long-term commitments are already in place for many of us.


Because something has been discussed before is no reason not to consider it again. Times are different, attitudes are different, and support is different now.

Because I meantioned the march thing, I've already gotten quite a few PMs expressing support for one. Stay tuned-- I am exploring some options as time premits it.


All the best!

John

I see these and hear these discussions every once on a while and think, do you think that if the demos actually somehow passed legislation to take away everyones guns, that they could get away with it? I don;t and heres why. I was in the Army for 10 years, and when in there were countless trys on the demos part to take away our 2nd rights, we talked about it a lot amongst ourselves and thought that not only did almost 90% of us have and own guns, but would NOT if activated to do so in a martial law ituation confiscate anyones guns. Not only that, but polls in law enforcement agency's nationwide have said the same thing. LEOs do not want to get killed trying to take away law abiding citizens firearms, and I can tell you this, in my learned opinion, I'd have to say that if they made a law making owning a firearm a felony if you didn;t surrender it then the nation would have as many felons as it does gun owners. Who is going to try to take my gun.....no body. Plus, most if not all demos I know own guns, only the far leftist who are total hippy tree hugging fanitacs think it would be kosher to take away guns. I don;t see it working.

SniperX,

I am very glad to hear your assessement of the situation, and I hope you are right. I lived through Katrina, and have already seen confiscation at its finest. If it happens, it would be tagged onto something else such as it was in Katrina.

Also, this poll of police officers doesn't inspire me with overwhelming confidence:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262283&highlight=poll


John

Also, this poll of police officers doesn't inspire me with overwhelming confidence:


How about this one? :D

46. The U.S. government declares a ban on the possession, sale, transportation, and transfer of all non-sporting firearms. A thirty (30) day amnesty period is permitted for these firearms to be turned over to the local authorities. At the end of this period, a number of citizen groups refuse to turn over their firearms.
The statement that the U.S. Marines were asked to respond to:

I would fire upon U.S. citizens who refuse or resist confiscation of firearms banned by the U.S. government.


( ) ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
No opinion Strongly disagree Disagree Agree Strongly agree

The Responses

Of the 300 U.S. Marines asked this question, 264, or 88% of them responded.

The outcome of the survey was as follows:


Strongly disagree 127 42.33%

Disagree 58 19.33%

Agree 56 18.67%

Strongly agree 23 07.67%

No opinion 36 12.00%

Total: 300 100.00%

Summary of the responses to question 46.

The survey results indicated that 61.66% (42.33 + 19.33) said they would refuse to fire on U.S. citizens, whereas 26.34% (18.67 + 7.67) indicated they would fire.


Apparently, not everyone will reach a "breaking point" together.....

That one disturbs me as well.

1 in 4 troops, according to that will kill US citizens if the governent ordered it.

1 in 4 troops, according to that will kill US citizens if the governent ordered it.

Yeah, that sort of thing staggers me since the Constitution is about that whole Government of, by, and for, the people.

I guess they either forgot or didn't understand that oath they took

you know, the one that goes something like this...

Oath of Enlistment, US ARMY(from the Center for Military History);

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).


For Commissioned Officers;

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)

I'm certainly near a breaking point, but I'm not in a position to do much unless government officials specifically oppress me or my family. As of a week ago, I'm engaged to be married. There's too much happening in my life right now, too much to lose, for me to engage in high-risk activity without specific provocation.

But I still support the idea of organized protest and civil disobedience.

Also, a suggestion... if gun owners decide to march on DC (which is a great idea!), I'd suggest the march be in support of the entire Bill of Rights. It's not just the 2nd that is being trampled these days.

There's too much happening in my life right now, too much to lose, for me to engage in high-risk activity without specific provocation.


I want to be clear that what I was talking about earlier was clearly self/family
defense in nature --such as stopping or reacting to a felonious act commited
against them by someone under the guise or protection of so-called gov authority.

I have to agree to some extent with Glockfan on his list back in post 21. However, I don't think there was as much luck as he thought.

There was a lot of local and state support for the revolution. Local and state govs kept things going fairly steady while the fighting was going on. Any modern revolution/successsion would need the support of these govs. The sheriff would keep general lawlessness down, and would probably also provide some intelligence. The states would do similar, while also forming a coalition or something, which would present a solid face to the world. Ideally this would start long before shots are fired. Regaining what little cohesion was lost during the conflict would not take long.

The economy would be ruined, and we would be looking at foreign troops, which many would look at as saviors, but probably many would see as invaders(much like many Iraqis see us), and would be treated in a hostile manner. Considering the abuses u.n. troops have perpetrated in the past, it wouldn't take long before a fair number of the people who welcomed them/didn't care turned against them.

Such a thing will really be considered the same as jumping off the deep end, and we need to look at what we have, and decide if it's worth it. I know where my diving board is, and I'm working to make sure I have the things needed to make it bearable. Most of the "economy" is excessive consumerism, that we'll actually be better off without. The sheep will have to look the wolves in the eyes, seeing them for what they are. They will have to look at the shearing that's gone down farther than they thought, the pain dulled by bread and circuses. When they get over that, they'll see that they have to get thier hands dirty.

Provided we can survive the foriegn assaults, and keep the gangs from tearing the sheep apart, we can survive. We have to give something up in the short term. I agree that we need to work on getting people like Ron Paul into the gov to set things right. But to fix it, we'll have to let go of the lesser of two evils, and that means we might have some trouble in the meantime. Chances are, they might not let us purge the gov with the ballot box, which means that we'll have to use the ammo box(I doubt the jury box will be much good by then).

I suspect that the if the next person in the WH doesn't at least toe the line by leaving our rights where they are, they'll get a literally "in their face" demonstration of how the 2A can change the balance of power. And that my friends, will be the second shot heard around the world. And we will either support that shot as a response, or we'll respond to the response to that shot. Either way, we're on the edge, and just a light tap will put us rolling downhill.

Great mission statement.

If HR 1022 passes......this could be it for some

I want to be clear that what I was talking about earlier was clearly self/family
defense in nature --such as stopping or reacting to a felonious act commited
against them by someone under the guise or protection of so-called gov authority.

Well in that case... I bought my firearms to defend against any felonious violence committed against myself or my family; I don't care who is committing the offense.

And illegal, unjust oppressive acts by our various secret (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264517) police (http://www.atf.gov/) agencies (http://www.nsa.gov) could fall into that category.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/22/AR2007032201882.html

My National Security Letter Gag Order
Friday, March 23, 2007; Page A17

It is the policy of The Washington Post not to publish anonymous pieces. In this case, an exception has been made because the author -- who would have preferred to be named -- is legally prohibited from disclosing his or her identity in connection with receipt of a national security letter. The Post confirmed the legitimacy of this submission by verifying it with the author's attorney and by reviewing publicly available court documents.

The Justice Department's inspector general revealed on March 9 that the FBI has been systematically abusing one of the most controversial provisions of the USA Patriot Act: the expanded power to issue "national security letters." It no doubt surprised most Americans to learn that between 2003 and 2005 the FBI issued more than 140,000 specific demands under this provision -- demands issued without a showing of probable cause or prior judicial approval -- to obtain potentially sensitive information about U.S. citizens and residents. It did not, however, come as any surprise to me.

Three years ago, I received a national security letter (NSL) in my capacity as the president of a small Internet access and consulting business. The letter ordered me to provide sensitive information about one of my clients. There was no indication that a judge had reviewed or approved the letter, and it turned out that none had. The letter came with a gag provision that prohibited me from telling anyone, including my client, that the FBI was seeking this information. Based on the context of the demand -- a context that the FBI still won't let me discuss publicly -- I suspected that the FBI was abusing its power and that the letter sought information to which the FBI was not entitled.

Rather than turn over the information, I contacted lawyers at the American Civil Liberties Union, and in April 2004 I filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the NSL power. I never released the information the FBI sought, and last November the FBI decided that it no longer needs the information anyway. But the FBI still hasn't abandoned the gag order that prevents me from disclosing my experience and concerns with the law or the national security letter that was served on my company. In fact, the government will return to court in the next few weeks to defend the gag orders that are imposed on recipients of these letters.

Living under the gag order has been stressful and surreal. Under the threat of criminal prosecution, I must hide all aspects of my involvement in the case -- including the mere fact that I received an NSL -- from my colleagues, my family and my friends. When I meet with my attorneys I cannot tell my girlfriend where I am going or where I have been. I hide any papers related to the case in a place where she will not look. When clients and friends ask me whether I am the one challenging the constitutionality of the NSL statute, I have no choice but to look them in the eye and lie.

I resent being conscripted as a secret informer for the government and being made to mislead those who are close to me, especially because I have doubts about the legitimacy of the underlying investigation.

The inspector general's report makes clear that NSL gag orders have had even more pernicious effects. Without the gag orders issued on recipients of the letters, it is doubtful that the FBI would have been able to abuse the NSL power the way that it did. Some recipients would have spoken out about perceived abuses, and the FBI's actions would have been subject to some degree of public scrutiny. To be sure, not all recipients would have spoken out; the inspector general's report suggests that large telecom companies have been all too willing to share sensitive data with the agency -- in at least one case, a telecom company gave the FBI even more information than it asked for. But some recipients would have called attention to abuses, and some abuse would have been deterred.

I found it particularly difficult to be silent about my concerns while Congress was debating the reauthorization of the Patriot Act in 2005 and early 2006. If I hadn't been under a gag order, I would have contacted members of Congress to discuss my experiences and to advocate changes in the law. The inspector general's report confirms that Congress lacked a complete picture of the problem during a critical time: Even though the NSL statute requires the director of the FBI to fully inform members of the House and Senate about all requests issued under the statute, the FBI significantly underrepresented the number of NSL requests in 2003, 2004 and 2005, according to the report.

I recognize that there may sometimes be a need for secrecy in certain national security investigations. But I've now been under a broad gag order for three years, and other NSL recipients have been silenced for even longer. At some point -- a point we passed long ago -- the secrecy itself becomes a threat to our democracy. In the wake of the recent revelations, I believe more strongly than ever that the secrecy surrounding the government's use of the national security letters power is unwarranted and dangerous. I hope that Congress will at last recognize the same thing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...032201882.html
My National Security Letter Gag Order

Discussion thread. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=264517)

I've worked on many political campaigns before, and will continue to do so. I'd much rather change things via the ballot box than the cartridge box.

But even that process is fatiguing. First, it's very hard to find a principled person willing to run for public office. It's even harder for a principled person to win, because he'll face an opponent who will make promises to thousands of people with outstretched hands.

Plus, it takes money. 95% of the time, the candidate with the most money wins. (2004 study).

Of course, there are many people who would give money to a principled candidate. But our elected officials have placed arbitrary amounts on how much money individiduals can contribute.

The unprincipled candidate doesn't face that problem, anymore than criminals face the problem of getting guns. Our governor here in Wisconsin was able to raise 25% more than his challenger, and from some very questionable sources. He's a former prosecutor and state attorney general, though. He knows how to skate near the thin ice but not break through.

If elected, the principled candidate faces the machine. Play nice, or the machine will eat you. The most principled member of the WI state legislature was defeated last year because he dared to challenge the road builders, who give vast amounts of money to members of both parties. Even the state Republican party's support for his re-election bid was a chimera.

The system has become corrupted because the public has been corrupted. They'll vote vote for a candidate who wants to ban guns because the candidate promises them more. More of what? Everything. I know very few people who haven't received money from the public coffers at one time or another.

So, what's the solution? Marches? Letters to the editor?

Here's a suggestion: pick one legislator and make an example of him. Let's say it's Chuck Schumer, one of the most senior members of congress. Dedicate all resources from every caring gun owner nationwide to his defeat.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

The Kelo thing clinched it for me, the end of property rights. No property rights and you have no rights at all.
It is merely a question of what to do about it.
And yes the outcome is going to be very bad indeed but living as slaves for political masters is no life worth having.

Here's a suggestion: pick one legislator and make an example of him. Let's say it's Chuck Schumer, one of the most senior members of congress. Dedicate all resources from every caring gun owner nationwide to his defeat.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

Actually, I think that's a great idea. Let's make a list, and start picking them off one by one.

Only one change, let's make Carl Levin our first target. :evil:

Americans have no stomach for sustained violence.

well, except for that whole thing called the Civil War...er... war of Northern Aggression... sorry, I went Yankee for a moment...

There is a precedent for what is happening now in US history.
Just look back to the early 1900's when the controled substances act and national prohibition were passed, both in 1919.

Folks were no longer able to decide what substances they could put in their own bodies. Drug posession and drug addiction, and of course selling drugs had become illegal and states would develop their own patchwork of draconian laws to punnish sellers and users.

What happened to life liberty and the pusuit of Happiness?,, being secure in your Person, and possessions?? Wasn't prohibition an infringement on basic constitutional NO Human rights by our government??

Physicians were later frobidden to proscribe narcotics to treat addicted users. The black market grew, prisons swelled, to unheard of levels. All this was in response to an out cry in the press about the horrors of addiction and deterioration of our society to crime and pointless violence. Prejudice against minorities like blacks, and mexicans was taken advantage of to spread fear, fear of the Blackman going wild on cocaine and raping white women, among other ridiculous fear mongering claims.

Public outrage grew and new laws were passed. Alcohol was subject to this frenzy as well. 1919 to 1934 IIRC the black market grew and violent criminal gangs with it. Police became more militarized to combat the violent new criminals. New police organizations, like the FBI, ATF, DEA were created, and lots of new prisons built.

Now replace drugs and alcohol, with GUNS as the evil and tell me if this doesn't sound familiar, and unfortunately alot like what will may happen to gunowners in the future.??

Issues such as this brought me to this board. I too am concerned about the .gov/.mil not fully supporting the Constitution. The more I research the more worries I have.

I have become a single issue voter. Does the candidate support and defend the Constitution of the United States yes or no? That is the only determining factor.

- Anyone who votes against the 2A

- For the Patriot Act

- Or votes for and supports any other Craziness that is unconstitutional does not get my vote or support.

When there is a digital crater where THR used to be...

Here's a suggestion: pick one legislator and make an example of him. Let's say it's Chuck Schumer, one of the most senior members of congress. Dedicate all resources from every caring gun owner nationwide to his defeat.

How to Fire a Bad Politician (http://www.washingtonceasefire.com/content/view/43/37/)

:cuss:
Folks, there's a lot of good stuff here and some not-so-good stuff too, but my breaking point is going to be different than my neighbor's. That's true with all of us. It's a form of marginalization that effectively divides us until we cannot even support ourselves.
Nearly every day we read about some poor schmuck who goes postal and pops a sheriff's deputy or an inspector from some alphabet agency that's trying to put him out of business. What do we do? We bend over backwards to believe the official news release which states the perp was a lunatic who had a grudge against the government.
Hell, we've all got a grudge against the government. Why in the name of Thor don't we go help him out instead of sitting behind our keyboards and nodding like bobble-heads at every pronouncement that comes out of the spoon-fed media? Remember Waco? Remember how Koresh was accused of molesting children? Was it ever proven? No, but there are people right here on this board who will repeat those accusations as if they were Holy Writ.
Until some of us decide that Fred Schmuck's line in the sand is as important as their own we're all sheep! We gunnies may be the black sheep of the flock, but we all band together when the wolf shows up.
Sure, we buy guns. We also stockpile ammo and wear camo, but for what? As soon as Big Brother passes a law that curtails some previously accepted activity we all turn to.... Big Brother! We write letters to our Congressmen and Senators as if they're going to help us. They were the ones who screwed us in the first place!
As long as the Keyboard Commando Corps continues to find good, logical reasons NOT to go to the aid of ol' Fred he'll die alone and be remembered as an anti-government terrorist and maybe even a child molester.
When I was younger I considered the possibility of joining a revolution. As the years passed, my imagined role in such a scenario necessarily became more restricted. Now, if blue helmets were to show up down at the corner I doubt I could get off more than one or two shots before their bullets found me. But I could make those two count! And who knows, I might just go help Fred too. Anybody else?

We may all have our individual breaking point, but until something gels, it is just so much mental exercise.
If a charismatic leader emerges to communicate the truth, and can motivate large numbers of citizens across the spectrum, and can engage the media in thier own game, maybe then you will see the tide turn.
I am not that person. Are you? Charlie Heston had a shot at it but who do we see out there now that can rally the people who feel as we do, and ignite a passion for freedom in Average Joe Citizen?
Our individual breaking points are insignificant on a national scale. Any one of us could reach that point and be the top story in the evening news, but that won't really change things for the better.
viva la revolution

Now replace drugs and alcohol, with GUNS as the evil and tell me if this doesn't sound familiar, and unfortunately alot like what will may happen to gunowners in the future.??


Which is nothing new and all are forms of socioeconomic control. Any government
--any type of rule by man-- has always used economic control as its preferred
method rather than the use of actual physical force. Called it civilization,
evolution, whatever. It's a combination of coercion and incentives.

It becomes very problematic in a society when there are two different sets
of rules for Us and Them. We've noticed this big time when it came to those
who could get CCWs and or had armed bodyguards in NYC, DC, etc while
telling us that we needed to be unarmed.

However, sometimes gunowners get far too focused on their objects and not
enough on the big economic picture from where their political life and the laws
that control it flow.

Another true story in my lifelong education to illustrate the economical and
political point I'm trying to make:

A friend tells me the town will soon be issuing 1X,250,000 in municipal bonds
at 7%. At the time banks were doing something like 2.x%. So I'm thinking
it would be great to break the nest egg and buy a bond or two. Now I'm not
a complete idiot thinking these are $100 or even $1000 bonds so I asked him
about when I could get a $10000 bond.

He smiles and says "These bonds are already ear-marked for selected buyers.
Besides, you can't afford the issuing price."

Me: "What? How much are they....wait a second --these things haven't even
been sold yet and what do you mean they're already ear-marked?!"

Friend: "We're talking about bonds that will be $X,000,000 each. And,
yes, we know who's getting them in advance. I can tell you they will include
Bank X, Bank Y, Factory Z, etc, etc."

Me: "So the average person who wants to buy something that yields better
than the bank and plan better for retirement is out of the game."

Friend: "Yes."

Me: "Why are you even telling me this?"

Friend: "Well, there is one wealthy individual who gets a bond for the
$250,000 remainder."

Me: "I still don't have that kind of money. But that person is already tagged,
right?"

Friend: "That's right. You don't even have enough to sit at the table on this
deal."

Me: "BTW, didn't the town give Factory Z a lot of tax breaks?"

Friend: (getting a great big smile) "Yes."

Me: "Isn't this the same factory that's gone from 3 shifts to 1 over the last
few years? Isn't this the same one talking about moving production to country X?!"

Friend: "Yes. Keep in mind that this factory still has pension obligations to
retired workers here and in other locations, though."

Me: (quiet for a moment as conflicting thoughts of social obligations vs the
"somebody still pays for the difference" jumble around) "Something still doesn't
feel right, though. The town should still be doing this sale differently. I and
the little old lady down the street should have as much right to access 7%
for our retirement as the employees of X, Y, and Z. Let them do it as individuals."

Friend: "How municipal bonds are offered is much larger than this little town.
This is a tiny part of larger events taking place outside of here. There's a
certain balance between companies and people."

Me: "I understand that, but it's also people --individuals-- who run these
companies and seem to have more say than the average person. They are
just as fallible as the next person."

Friend: "I agree. And when they screw up, it's big."

Me: "Millions --if not billions-- of dollars and affecting thousands of lives."

Friend: "Right. There are risks, but how else would you manage things on
such a large scale?"

Me: "I'm not sure --just that it needs to be more geared towards the individual."

When you say, 'when the shtf' does that mean we are back to the ole days' of the minute men militia???

in this thread and believe OldFart @#77 pretty much nailed it. The real story is that we are all a bunch of frogs in the pot and some are noticing the increasing heat sooner than others. Some posters have noted the slippage of freedom arising from certain government acts at various points in history. A critical study of US history will reveal the slippage began before the turn of the 19th century even though the Constitution and Bill of Rights had barely been instituted (1789). One example of early slippage or "breaking point" as it has been termed in this thread was the Whiskey Rebellion.

Governments are blunt instruments of force and control, absolutely antithetical to freedom as a pure concept. One poster mentioned getting principled persons into office, a la Mr. Smith Goes to Washington. Here is a news flash: governments are where principles go to die. Pragmatism rules the day, politics is about the possible -- not the perfect.

Though some on the "Shooter" thread don't like it due to some of the actors' politics, watching it might give you some insight to a cynical view of government and the exercise of power, force, and control.

I’ve read through this entire thread and share the frustration with everyone. Yes, everyone it seems has their own breaking point and solution. It saddens me to see our personal freedoms erode and I worry for our children.

My personal solution is I believe it is time for a third party. Republican/Democrat, just a blur between the two. The old ‘ lesser of two evils ‘ just doesn’t get it anymore. “ you’re just throwing your vote away “ to vote third party. I’m at my breaking point and I am fighting with my vote. I will never vote for Rudy/Hillary ( insert any current frontrunner )

Give me a Ron Paul, Fred Thompson candidate and I don’t mean just the primaries.

My vote will count.

Also, a suggestion... if gun owners decide to march on DC (which is a great idea!), I'd suggest the march be in support of the entire Bill of Rights. It's not just the 2nd that is being trampled these days.
agreed

"Give me a Ron Paul, Fred Thompson candidate and I don’t mean just the primaries.

My vote will count."

I would prefer Ron Paul but will settle for Fred Thompson. No others need apply.

For all those holding hope out for Fred Thompson, what will happen to your enthusiasm for Fred when it comes out he is a globalist (I draw a sharp distinction between a globalist and a capitalist) and a member of the same good ol' boys club as is Newt Gingrich and everyone else in the DC septic tank.

I'm looking for substantive change as opposed to cosmetics. A new coat of paint ain't gonna fix the rot.

Kelo was my breaking point, I'm just waiting for the signal



I wonder how many people are just like us, waiting for a leader.

I'm no leader. I'm just a decent shot.

The Parker case could be it. May....maybe not. But if the SCOT"U"S play it like the Kelo case......

Who said "America is at that awkward stage, too late to work within the system, and too early to begin shooting the bastards". Or something to that effect.

I think eveyone here who hasn't already, should get themselves a copy of "Unintended Consequences", read it and think deeply.

Breaking point? The breaking point is when the bring out the handcuffs. This is clear, and easy. What is concealed and difficult is recognising the handcuffs for what they are.

Too much of this country thinks they don't have a dog in this fight, and until they do, they won;t even begin to think about doing anything.

Look at what happened under Clinton, with Ruby Ridge and the Branch Davidians at Waco, well, the press told us they were just nuts, so there was nothing much for us to get excited about. And that is what will happen when the next ones occur. Doesn't matter which party is in control, it will be the forces of "reason and progress" against a bunch of "nuts", and the bulk of the nation will do nothing but watch.

Maybe, one day, there will be a "Wilson Blair" or some one like him, to give us a call to action. But who will listen? Who will be allowed to listen? And of those, who will actually do something? And will it make things better, or worse?

I can't say, my crystal ball has been disconnected, due to an unpaid karmic debt. But I can say this, When it gets to the point that they come for me, they better bring a lunch.

Take heart before breaking.

- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns.
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
and so on.

Most gun control is actually local/state. Federally, there is very little save save obnoxious paperwork, NFA, and 922(o). If you don't like where you are, MOVE. Much of the country is much better, and getting better. I moved from NY to GA - the change in freedom is palpable; I went from strict regulation an and comprehensive prohibitions to no registration and a suppressed SBR in my safe ... I suggest you do the same.

Much of the "breaking point" methinks has much more to do with personal exhaustion, of trying so hard so long to obey and cooperate only to get smacked upside the head with one more restriction & obfuscation after another. Law only works insofar as the law-abiding are inclined to be cooperative; when lawmakers make it too hard to cooperate, the law-abiding stop being so (not choosing to be criminals, but made so by an impossible litany of oppression).



All that said, I'd say my own breaking point may be SCOTUS reversing Parker (or a comparable event).

AWB II would probably the breaking point for a LOT of people; I'd just move firmly into NFA territory and go after 922(o) ("I'm goin' after the big stuff while you Dems get pummeled by everyone else...").

As of a week ago, I'm engaged to be married. There's too much happening in my life right now, too much to lose, for me to engage in high-risk activity without specific provocation.That points to the trick used to keep this BS going: put a disinterested third party on the line. Spouse/family is one - you'll do darn near anything to ensure they won't be hurt. Financially involved middleman is another - say, require all transactions go thru an FFL who really doesn't care so long as he gets paid, and he'll do whatever is required to make sure he keeps getting paid.

I'm reminded of how, in his early years, Yassir Arafat shut down one of his terrorist groups: fiercely motivated single men, willing to kill & die for the cause, were "neutralized" when he held a beauty pagent and married the winners off to the highly-respected terrorists, who suddenly had a reason to calm down and live.

"Breaking point" and "What to do about it" are two entirely different issues.

We may all have a similar breaking point, but what we do about it probably has a different answer for each person.

My breaking point is very near. Some days, I am very close to "going off the map" or "checking out". Part of my plan to checkout of mainstream America is my upcoming move to a rural part of Hawaii in the next month. I hope to never live on the mainland ever again. There are parts of Hawaii where no one would ever find you, and you can live off the grid and be entirely self-sufficient.

Which leads me to the second part, "What to do about it." A lot of you talk about revolutions and taking our country back and quote Jefferson, "the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants", but I believe these are all empty threats, saber rattling at our Government, all the while saying, "don't piss me off, or I will continue to rattle my saber yet still pay taxes and still vote in a 2 party system!"

I believe the true revolutionary will check out, which is probably what I will do if I reach my breaking point. I would disappear into the wilderness and live according to my own rule of law. Not for the good of my neighbor or for the nation, but as a matter of personal survival and "keeping what's mine."

I envy people who are "under the radar". I have friends who live on a cash basis, they don't file taxes, they don't register anything with anyone, they don't have bank accounts, and they truly could disappear and no one would know where to find them. This would be my ultimate resolution to reaching my breaking point.

Revolution to take back our country? Pffft. That's a pipe dream today. I'm more concerned about my own survival, disappearing, and not being part of the system.

Talking to my best friend today, his views are a lot different than myself.

What are you gonna do about it, there is nothing you or I can do about it, it is above our heads...

So I find out that my brother, 4 of my best friends and my little sister dont vote.

I am going to be working on educating everyone close to me. I am generally respected by my friends and I certain they will follow my lead.

:banghead:

helpless,
I've told this story before but I guess it's time to resurrect it again.
My family lived in the country a few miles from a large city. Our neighbors had kids too and we all went to school in a one-room, 8-grade school. Our summers, until we were old enough to work, were occupied by baseball. Most boys (and some of the girls) had a bit of room where a ballfield could be set up. Naturally, each field had special rules for what would happen if the ball were to go into the creek or the bull-pen (a real bull!) or over an electric fence. Some of the kids made rules that were just plain assinine and we didn't play there very often.
Voting is like playing on one of those fields.
The rules all favor the 'home team' by effectively disenfranchising anyone who might want to do things differently than the 'home team' has been doing them. Any complaint about the rules is resolved in favor of the 'home team.' Any attempt to circumvent the rules is punished by the 'home team.' The only recourse is to leave the field in disgust, resolving to never play the game again - a tactic that is sure to earn the derision of those who are winning the game and those who are too brainwashed to see their vote is merely a 'bread and circus' show put on periodically to keep us all in line.
I've given up counting the number of lies told to me by politicians who sought my vote. If they managed to get into office conditions always changed, making it impossible to keep his promises. Of course it wasn't his fault, it was because of some factor he couldn't have known about until he walked into his new office and started drawing his new salary.
Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.

I wonder how many people are just like us, waiting for a leader.

I'm no leader. I'm just a decent shot.
I'm no leader either but I am a good follower,
One big problem in the world today is that those who think of themselves as great leaders ain't and us followers are sometimes to followy to see it.

I had the great fortune very recently to have one of those eye opening medical experiences where you think you have that disease that gives you three months to a year to live (turned out to be really wicked indigestion coupled with an ulcer and something called GERD)

After much soul searching on my impending death I came to the honest and sincere conclusion that I didn't care,
Twenty or thirty more years of taking up space in the world we have created wasn't that appealing, I just didn't want it to hurt too much

I am now the perfect follower.
I believe the military term is "cannon fodder"

So what's the signal

Yeah, I've given some thought to what I might do if I knew I only had a short time to live. Just what could TPTB take from you if you stepped on their toes a bit forcefully? I don't remember who said it, but it goes something like 'there's nothing you can do to a free man except kill him.' If that option is preempted by God, about all that's left is ridicule and that's kinda paltry compared to some of the things a "free" man could do.
Somewhere around here I have a print-out of an essay by I-don't-remember-who that postulated that there is an increasing number of people in this world that need a match-grade round between the eyes. What would happen if a bunch of old guys who knew their days were numbered decided - on their own, with no communications between them - to sanction some miserable left-wing, anti-freedom busybody?
Of course TPTB would go into full-spin mode and denounce each and every one of them as child molesters driven to become anti-government terrorists rather than register and put a sign in their windows.

On my right upper shoulder, there is a Tat that reads:

"You Can't Enslave A Free Man
You Can Only Kill Him"

I believe this to be true.

Biker

We've come to be where we are via politicians pandering to voting blocs, using funds from the public coffers to buy the votes.

Add in the activists like the Brady Bunch, who are unending in publicizing non-factual, emotionally-laden messages.

I note that we have made gains at the state level, although the national level is still a problem.

The Zumbo affair illustrated a new power in a changing world, that of the Internet and of blogs and boards such as this one.

Our main hope is not only continue as we have in political activism, but to get more people to join us, and for all of us to do more.

That's more letters to editors and congresscritters and state legislators. More showing up at city council or county commission meetings. More money to campaigns at lower levels; today's city council guy may be in the state legislature, next year. Envelope stuffing in campaigns. Phone banks. Poll-taxi on election day. And plain old jawboning our buddies to go vote.

All that stuff.

We can't make gains to recover what we've lost if we just sit back and vent on the Internet...

But take heart from one fact: It doesn't take all that many votes to swing an election. Look how many are in the range of 53/47 or thereabouts. Four points is all it takes to change from a loser to a winner.

Art

Our enemies do it; what's our excuse for not doing it?

That points to the trick used to keep this BS going: put a disinterested third party on the line. Spouse/family is one - you'll do darn near anything to ensure they won't be hurt. Financially involved middleman is another - say, require all transactions go thru an FFL who really doesn't care so long as he gets paid, and he'll do whatever is required to make sure he keeps getting paid.


I'm not entirely sure what your point is here... that we shouldn't have any other attachments aside from a pursuit of a state of perfect freedom?


Take heart before breaking.


Yes, absolutely - the situation regarding the RKBA is better than it has been for a long time.

But these days, I'm not "taking heart" much. Why?

Because the RKBA is one of the least endangered rights. I'm far more worried about the fourth, fifth, sixth, and eighth amendments... or, for that matter, the tendency of the executive branch and it's agencies to simply ignore the law.

Without rule of law, freedoms can not be protected by legal means, and legislative or judicial victories have little meaning.


Most gun control is actually local/state. Federally, there is very little save save obnoxious paperwork, NFA, and 922(o). If you don't like where you are, MOVE.


For most people that is not realistic. People live where they have jobs, friends and families. And if freedom-loving people leave a state, that leaves fewer people who will fight for freedom in that state.

Most states are pretty decent regarding RKBA. There are -- what, a half dozen? -- states which have excessively burdensome and restrictive laws... CA, NY, NJ, IL, MA, MD?

Of those, I'm somewhat familiar with only CA firearms law. It is far too restrictive... AWB, handgun registration, may-issue (generally not), and very limited open carry. Yet within 2 years, I will probably move from NM, one of the most RKBA-friendly states, to CA. Most of my friends live there, and most of the jobs are there (or in Europe which is generally even more anti-RKBA).

The proper approach is to fight for freedom wherever you live. Giving up and moving away simply cedes territory to your opponent.


Much of the "breaking point" methinks has much more to do with personal exhaustion, of trying so hard so long to obey and cooperate only to get smacked upside the head with one more restriction & obfuscation after another. Law only works insofar as the law-abiding are inclined to be cooperative; when lawmakers make it too hard to cooperate, the law-abiding stop being so (not choosing to be criminals, but made so by an impossible litany of oppression).

I think you hit the nail on the head, but that's only one aspect of the breaking point. The other is fear of a lawless government run amok with JBT's breaking down doors and innocent people being persecuted for political or economic reasons.

I don't think we're at that point, but I see movement in that direction.

Take heart before breaking.

- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.
- 2 states are "Vermont carry".
- the only true federal ban is on machineguns.
- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.
- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).
- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.
- NJ high court did the same a week later.
- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.
and so on.

- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.

Those permits are band aids on the gash in our rights. The underlying unconstitutional law is still there in every case. Rip off the band aid, and you're back to square negative one.

- 2 states are "Vermont carry".

Yes, and this is good, but you are still limited by unconstitutional federal law such as that "no guns near a school" BS.

- the only true federal ban is on machineguns....

...and the difficulties in obtaining grenades, RPGs and their launchers, etc, etc...

- inflation has brought the NFA tax down to a very manageable $200.

But, it's still there and no less an infringement.

- most (?) states have very tolerable restrictions (easy permits and no gun registration).

ANY infringement is still a problem

- DC Circuit court declared the 2nd Amendment an individual right.

That is a good start

- NJ high court did the same a week later.

That too is a good start for NJ.

- The Zumbo incident demonstrated huge grass-roots mobilization in 3 days flat.

That is worth taking heart over. We have shown that we do have a voice.

Woody

A law that says you cannot fire your gun in the middle of downtown unless in self defense is not unconstitutional. Laws that prohibit brandishing except in self defense or handling your gun in a threatening or unsafe manner would not be unconstitutional. Laws can be written that govern some of the uses of guns. No law can be written that infringes upon buying, keeping, storing, carrying, limiting caliber, limiting capacity, limiting quantity, limiting action, or any other limit that would infringe upon the keeping or bearing of arms. That is the truth and simple reality of the limits placed upon government by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. B.E.Wood

Take heart before breaking.

- CCW permits have gone from almost impossible to "shall issue" in most states.


Like I mentioned before, the "breaking point" for most individuals has to do
with more with than just guns. Florida was far ahead of most in issuing CCWs
--even for non-residents-- but when you read local stuff like this, it makes
you wonder about where things are going:

http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/16/1664.asp

Florida: City to Seize Homes Over a $5 Parking Ticket
Brooksville, Florida proposes to foreclose homes and seize cars over less than $20 in parking tickets.

The city council in Brooksville, Florida voted this week to advance a proposal granting city officials the authority to place liens and foreclose on the homes of motorists accused of failing to pay a single $5 parking ticket. Non-homeowners face having their vehicles seized if accused of not paying three parking offenses.

According to the proposed ordinance, a vehicle owner must pay a parking fine within 72 hours if a meter maid claims his automobile was improperly parked, incurring tickets worth between $5 and $250. Failure to pay this amount results in the assessment of a fifty-percent "late fee." After seven days, the city will place a lien on the car owner's home for the amount of the ticket plus late fees, attorney fees and an extra $15 fine. The fees quickly turn a $5 ticket into a debt worth several hundred dollars, growing at a one-percent per month interest rate. The ordinance does not require the city to provide notice to the homeowner at any point so that after ninety days elapse, the city will foreclose. If the motorist does not own a home, it will seize his vehicle after the failure to pay three parking tickets.

Any motorist who believes a parking ticket may have been improperly issued must first pay a $250 "appeal fee" within seven days to have the case heard by a contract employee of the city. This employee will determine whether the city should keep the appeal fee, plus the cost of the ticket and late fees, or find the motorist not guilty. Council members postponed a decision on whether to reduce this appeal fee until final adoption of the measure which is expected in the first week of April.

Why not just tow the car and hold it until all fees are paid? Why does the
guy who RENTS get three strikes and the homeowner gets one?! It's kind of
like serf (the renter who is in effect owned by someone else) and freeholder
(the man who at least owns his own cottage) all over again with the local
lord trying to quash the freeholders within the fiefdom.

You guys have lost the thread. Your looking for a leader? Who is going to be first? Who is staying home?

There can only be one answer. Live Free, or Die!

All the politicking in the world will change nothing. All the Rosie Parades on D.C., will change nothing. As long a the republicrat game is allowed to run, all remains the same. The time for action is well past.

Our only hope is a third party, or organized general strikes. You know stay home from work. Yikes, that'll cost us money!!! If it gets to where we got to go gunning, it is all lost and we get to prove how much we respect the principle of the alternative to "Live Free,,,,,,,".

While we wring our hands and ask, who is going first, the house burns down around us.

I know when my trigger is tripped. When it happens, I ain't asking who is with me, or who will go first. You young ones starting a family had better start looking towards the future. One day you will be like me, knowing your grandkids will never know the freedoms that once were! Time is coming........

Jerry

You know you guys got me thinking back about the Zumbogate. I honestly feel bad for him. I saw his show a couple of times, and I think he was just your typical ignorrant hunter. He has never had the need for an AK or AR clone, and the only time he sees them is on TV in Iraq (mind you those are REAL AKs, not the pretend semi-auto ones), so he says 'why do they need them'. Then he got schooled, and I do believe he feels bad for it, perhaps he was reminded that an attack on any gun is an attack on all. Now I dont agree with him at all, BUT I was in a similar boat until recently. I only cared about C&R. The guns I have had in the past that were modern non C&R I always sold or traded for C&R stuff. As long as they werent attacking my right to buy a SVT40 or Carcano, the AWB didnt bother me. But that all changed when I was awoken by HR1022, which is an attack on the m1s.

And that is where we are now. Most guys dont have a 'breaking point' until its their rights that are being stomped on. Sometimes it takes this to wake a gun owner up. Some gun owners probably just have a .38 hidden with their porn and booze locker, so until they try some UK-like ban they wont care. It's a difficult thing trying to remind gun owners that once they ban one thing, in 10 years they will try another. Werent autos enough? Guess not. Less than 10 years later they went for the fake assault weapons. Ive grown to expect it every 10 years.

... for it comes down to the point of making it possible to enslave me by stripping me of the tools I need to remain free. Take those tools and I'm as good as enslaved. When the man comes with the chains, it's too late. I don't think it is possible to take those chains and wrap them around his neck if he is armed and I am not. Therefore, the line is drawn - has been drawn - by our Founding Fathers when they crafted and ratified the second article added to the Constitution, commonly known as the Second Amendment to the Constitution for the United States of America. They saw this coming, having seen it in the past. Hell, some of them were slavers, too! Not only is the Second Amendment from the horse's mouth, it's from the guys holding the reins as well!

Each and every infringement on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a link in that chain. Each and every law in the way of us maintaining our readiness as a well regulated militia is a link as well. Registration is the Blacksmith stoking his coals forging your collar, and confiscation is analogous to the Blacksmith's collar wrapped around your neck and you're ready for the chain.

I've been too tolerant up to this point. I will not register my arms nor will I stand for their confiscation. There is my line. Take it or leave it, Congress.

Woody

"I pledge allegiance to the rights that made and keep me free. I will preserve and defend those rights for all who live in this Union, founded on the belief and principles that those rights are inalienable and essential to the pursuit and preservation of life, liberty, and happiness." B.E.Wood

... for it comes down to the point of making it possible to enslave me by stripping me of the tools I need to remain free. Take those tools and I'm as good as enslaved. When the man comes with the chains, it's too late.

As I pointed out before in this thread, the preferred method of enslaving you
is by binding and controlling your economic life --your money. Well...it's not
really your money anyway, it's the collective tool of an economy. ;) The
main way to control your use of that money is by taxation.

Here is a very quick illustration of how taxation has changed in this country
over time (this will NOT be about the "legality" of an income tax which has
been beaten to death on THR in the past --this is simply about tax rates
and amount of income). In any case use the information from these official
websites to see how taxation has changed from then to now:

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=149200,00.html

In 1913, Wyoming ratified the 16th Amendment, providing the three-quarter majority of states necessary to amend the Constitution. The 16th Amendment gave Congress the authority to enact an income tax. That same year, the first Form 1040 appeared after Congress levied a 1 percent tax on net personal incomes above $3,000 with a 6 percent surtax on incomes of more than $500,000.

Remember $3,000 and the year 1913 when you go to this website:

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/index.cfm

Ok, now what do you get for the year 2007? How much income today would
you have to make before that 1 percent tax would be levied on you?

I know a lot of people who would not qualify for that 1% federal tax as
adjusted. I wouldn't. Double that amount for couples filing jointly and many
people still wouldn't qualify.

Each and every infringement on the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a link in that chain.

Each and every coin taken from my pocket and yours becomes a link in our chain.

Feel those chains now? :scrutiny: :fire:

Each and every coin taken from my pocket and yours becomes a link in our chain.

And, the even more insidious tax has yet to be mentioned. 70+ years ago, one greenback dollar bill would buy twenty percent of an ounce of gold. All of this inflation is not accidental.

Imagine, your house and mine is only actually worth 3 cents on the dollar. Of course the inflated price of your/my home will plummet, when the money men decide it is in their best interests. Just having it paid off is no protection.

Latest gold price is 664.50. Today it take 33.22 dollars to buy 1/20 of an ounce of gold.

As I said before, if it goes to the gun, we are beaten already, in practical wording. It must be something real in the political world. A new party on the way to power in D.C., or general strikes. Something along these lines.

Jerry

As I said before, if it goes to the gun, we are beaten already, in practical wording.

Iraqi insurgents fighting for their way of life don't agree. These people ARE willing to take up arms for their way of life. And in guerilla warfare, guerillas always win no matter the odds simply because they refuse to give up.

Disagree? then think of these things.

Iraq and the US - we are losing
Afghanistan and Russia - Russia lost
Vietnam and the US - US lost
Colonists and Britain - We, the colonists, won. We were the guerillas.

In every case, the guerilla faces a much more well equipped and trained army, and they defeated it. Let's not overlook this one key point that we complacent keyboard warriors always seem to ignore.

Going the the gun insures we will win, taking them up, collectively, is another matter. For rallying the troops would be the most difficult thing to do. I'm sure our founding fathers had the same problem, but they did it, and we all love them dearly for it. We also agree that they would currently be rolling in their graves to see what our political system has become. But hey, wasn't it Jefferson or Franklin that only gave it 80 years before it would collapse? There are examples all over the world, past and present, of people reaching for guns for a way of life more to their liking.

Point is, when will we reach for ours, together, like our founding fathers did against the Britons?

It'll happen in pubs, as it did with our founders, where both libs and cons will both agree, enough is enough, time to do something. I think it will happen, maybe not my generation, but this next one, they have more fire and fervor than any I've seen before. But again, that may just be my age coming into play as I approach 40. Regardless, it will happen, but the thing is, will it happen and impact enough people to create a movement or will it be a Ruby Ridge or Waco Texas where people trying to choose their own way of life are told by the masses that their not to keen of that. Weak analogy, but you get the point.

Many will die, no doubt, but at least they will know what it is they are fighting for. The political process is no longer conducive to results dictated by the people, our elected officials have seen to that under the flood of corporate money's influence. They only need our support to get elected, after that, their in the club, they don't need us anymore, the 'ol boys club will take care of them, and it does. And in all honesty, isn't that what we're all really pissed off about anyway. Hey, I voted for you and you turned around and lied to me, ignored my pleas to get things on track again and simply became a part of the problem you promised to help solve.

I've written lots of letters to my Senators regarding issues in my state of Oregon. The only time one of them even acknowledged that I sent them a letter is when Senator Ron Wyden sent me a note claiming he was not supporting giving illegal immigrants rights to our social services. Other than that, nothing. Now, if I was a big executive, for say, Intel, who wielded tons of money and a multibillion dollar corporation, do you think my pleas would be ignored. I don't.

Sorry if this drifted badly, I did not read every single post.

Iraqi insurgents fighting for their way of life don't agree. These people ARE willing to take up arms for their way of life. And in guerilla warfare, guerillas always win no matter the odds simply because they refuse to give up.


No, they do not always win. They win, if they can keep from getting killed off, before a people tire of that particular conflict. We did not lose the Vietnam conflict, we gave it up after winning every major fight. It was PR that drove us out..

We won independence from King George, with a a lot of help from France and some distractions caused by Spain. Without these King George would have never quit the Colonies. We won out against The Major World Power of that day, because it was too entangled elsewhere.

How many Americans will you find to strap on bombs and blow themselves up. There is a cultural difference here. How many will not step up to fight "terrorists" who have harmed own, no matter those "terrorists" are their Countrymen. No, the romantic notions have a good feel, but when we go to the gun, the Nation will never be the same and likely not to our liking. Better to work the ballot box and the money system.

Get used to the idea that the Game is rigged. The old ways will not work again.

Jerry

My own personal choice was to move from an anti-gun state (****) to a pro-RKBA state, Florida. I think over time folks will "vote with their feet" and move to states that suit them. Statists and welfare hounds will move to states like Illinois, and freedom lovers will move out. As long as some states are more or less bastions of freedom, we'll put off the final confrontation.


Now, if national legislation were passed banning entire classes of weaponry, things might heat up. That was the premise of my first novel, when Congress banned all semi-auto rifles after a contrived stadium massacre.

Since I'm not from around these parts, I'm probably not very qualified to comment, but I've always known the Constitution to be "the supreme law of the land" (quote from the INS/USCIS). Therefore, no infringement of the Bill of Rights or any other part of the constitution should even be considered under any circumstances. I don't think you can pick and choose which amendments we're going to stick to today. No politician should be allowed to remain in power if he/she attempts to.

jeepmor, your post reminded me of something that happened last week. I got a call from some yo-yo on the Gordon Smith campaign team asking me for money - $75 as a starting point. After he endured me calling his employer a RINO and pointing out that Smith spent more time in conference with the Dems than his own party and that he really needed to hold town-hall meetings in local schools rather than fund-raisers at the Hilton with Phil Knight, et al, he asked me if I wanted to lose the only Republican Senator on the west coast.
I had to pause then, because I couldn't believe he hadn't heard all the stuff I had just told him but when I caught my breath I really told him what I thought about his employer. He seemed to be impressed if not amused. :banghead:
I really don't know what it will take to get this country back on track but doing the same stuff over and over certainly doesn't seem like it'll do much good. Maybe we need someone like Hillary in office to jar the sheeple out of their comas. From now on, when I vote (IF I vote) I'm just going to vote for the most libertairian candidate available or against the incumbent.

Yeah, I know: every day there's a post on THR, TFL, AR15.com or another forum about SHTF scenarios. No doubt such fantasies have existed since the first formation of the Wog versus Gog neanderthal political dynasties.

But something is growing, and not for the better. The political landscape is more divided, whether national, statewide, or even local.

Believe it or not, young members of THR, but there was a time when politicians of both parties actually respected the Second Amendment. JFK, Hubert Humphrey and other Democrats didn't use the terms "hunters and sportsmen." They said flat-out that the Second Amendment means what it says.

I believe that, don't ask me why because I wasn't there, deep down I want to believe it. My courage depends on believing it, if not within the past sixty years then the past 250, sometime somewhere someone believed that freedom was worth dying for. Someone, somewhere, sometime, believed that freedom was worth killing for.

How did the General put it? "I will have peace, even if I have to go to war to get it" it would read for them so long ago "I will have freedom, even if I have to start a war for it" or, even better, "Give me liberty or give me death". It would read for us soon too, indeed the impossible storm is coming, make no mistake whether it is fought in the court room, the congress floor, or the streets of America, it is coming.

That era was long ago and far away.

In its place, we have a system where the Republicans take for granted the votes of the gun owners, the fundamentalist Christians, and other groups that can find no haven in the Democrat party.

And the Democrat party takes for granted that Blacks, Hispanics, gays, and other interest groups will simply pull the voting lever for the "D" ticket

I was on the phone today with gun shop owners from all over the country. One, in Illinois, told me that she couldn't commit to any sort of advertising until she saw the outcome of the proposed AW ban/registration scheme proposed by Daley and Governor Blago.

If the bill passed, she said, she and her husband would sell their gun store for whatever they could get for it, and move to another state.

How in the name of God did things ever get this far?.


Please... Don't be fooled into thinking that this is the first time it has happened. The Egyptians forbade their slaves to have weapons, the Babylonians as well, the Romans, the Franks, the English, the Japanese... the list goes on and on. It all follows a trend, those in power want what those with money want, namely... more of it.

Then someone stood up, a small band of people, and said 'enough'. That simple attitude, that simple sentiment marked the turning point of history yet again, then began what would live to be called here in America "The Revolutionary War".

It didn't stop there, the Indians had to fight for their freedom, the blacks had to shoot raiders from the Klan, women had to take to the streets enmasse for their freedom, blacks had to hold demonstrations and suffer viscous attacks from the police for equal freedom. I could keep going on and on, freedom is what America is all about, and there will always be those who wish to gain power over others.

This is why it is said "every generation needs their heroes", because without heroes to remind us of the good in ourselves and the power within us to change our environment we become little more than sheep, herded around by other sheep who think they are wolves.

We aren’t sheep, and we aren’t wolves, we are Humans. When my cat wants something that I have and I will not give it to him, he does what an animal is supposed to do, “the strongest survive” so they say and he attempts to take it from me. If I were to follow the law of nature then I would respond with a slightly greater show of force to let him know that I am superior, but I’m not an animal, I have authority over my decisions and myself.

In the same way those who would wish to disarm Americans are doing so because they see something that they want, power, they are in my opinion sub-human because they do not base their decisions on decided thought but rather on their carnal fears and desires.

Thus it has been and thus it shall continue, every generation has to fight its own wars against the power hungry, my grandfather went to world war two and we saw what happened when monsters were allowed to rule and that strengthened their resolve, but we don’t have a world war two, and we don’t have a man in tights to stand up and fight for ‘Truth, Justice, and the American way’. We haven’t had to taste our own blood for our freedom, and that is why things are the way they are, we sit and argue fruitlessly while believing that we have to conform to any and all laws that get passed.

More to the point, what will people do?

Have we forgotten the words of our forefathers? Have we forgotten that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance? Have we forgotten what John Quincy Adams told us when he said “Posterity--you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.” And Woodrow Wilson, “Liberty has never come from the government; it has always come from the subjects of it. The history of liberty is a history of limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.”

My soul, has it slipped the minds of everyone that "To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions is a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy." (Thomas Jefferson) or that northern jurors in the 1850's refused to convict Quakers and others of aiding and abetting runaway slaves, though in direct opposition to the Runaway Slave Act.

First Chief Justice John Jay said “The jury has a right to judge both the law as well as the fact in controversy.” Or Lysander Spooner (An Essay on the Trial by Jury, 1852): "Our American constitution have provided five...separate tribunals, to wit, representatives, senate, executive, jury, and judges; and have made it necessary that each enactment shall pass the ordeal of all these separate tribunals, before its authority can be established by the punishment of those who choose to transgress it."

I hear you, “where is he going with this?” simply here, listen closely IF THE LAW IS WRONG, THEN THE H*** WITH IT! If a ‘law’ says something that is contrary to freedom or righteousness, then the people are above that law. The people are not subject to laws, laws are subject to people, and people to people.

So, back to your question ‘what will people do?’ that is simple, we will stop meekly submitting to the sub-humans who want to take away our rights and assert our power as Humans to set them in their place. We will wave off their ‘laws’ and tote our freedoms valiantly for all to see. What we are doing right now we are doing quietly, ‘under the radar’ so to speak, however we will be prepared to let rivers of blood flow to refresh the tree of liberty if it must be.

I'm not a hero. I'm a coward. But I'm reaching the point where I feel that the potential sacrifice of my own life, if I thought such a sacrifice would achieve the means to a truly free society, would be justified.

And that idea just scares the hell out of me.

Congratulations, , you have taken the first step to heroism. I am confident that when the time comes, you will have already admitted and past that first hurdle and will be miles ahead of the horde, leading your pack.

What can you do now? If you are really serious about your rights and the constitution then consider forming a C.R.E.S.T. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheCREST/)chapter in your area. I am, and when the time comes (and I said when, not if) and you have to stand up for your freedoms, then we will be standing together.

Semper Fi, Carry On.
- Ghost


We must realize that today's Establishment is the new George III. Whether it will continue to adhere to his tactics, we do not know. If it does, the redress, honored in tradition, is also revolution.
— Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas, Points of Rebellion, New York: Random House, 1970

Anyone who can put the proper title to our Constitution has a good start! It is, "The Constitution FOR the United States of America", not "OF".

Woody

I love these microcosm things that reflect the larger nation:

Indiana Mayors Call for State Lawmakers to Protect Taxpayers

Municipal Leaders Push for New Revenue Options in Statewide News Conferences

Mayors held simultaneous news conferences across Indiana on Wednesday, March 28, 2007, in Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, Hammond and South Bend to discuss the urgency of property tax relief and the need for new revenue options during this legislative session. The bipartisan coalition of mayors detailed how property tax reform and adequate funding for local governments is crucial to the quality of life in cities and towns across Indiana. The Indiana Association of Cities and Towns (IACT) is aggressively working to reduce reliance on property taxes and find alternatives for financing critical services citizens need and deserve.

The following IACT members participated in the news conferences:

Indianapolis: Mayor Bart Peterson (D), Greenwood Mayor Charles Henderson (R) and Madison Mayor Al Huntington (R).

Fort Wayne: Mayor Graham Richard (D), Bluffton Mayor Ted Ellis (D) and Warsaw Mayor Ernie Wiggins (R).

Hammond: Mayor Tom McDermott (D), LaPorte Mayor Leigh Morris (R) and Highland Clerk-Treasurer Michael Griffin (D).

South Bend: Mayor Steve Luecke (D), Mishawaka Mayor Jeff Rea (R) and Michigan City Mayor Charles Oberlie (R).

That sounds good --a lot of broad support for protecting tax payers, right?

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/16987235.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 28, 2007

Editorial briefs

Get your pens ready

Opponents of Fort Wayne Community Schools’ $500 million building project seem to have collected enough signatures to trigger a remonstrance process. The county auditor’s office has 15 days to verify the signatures, after which a 30-day period will be set so opponents and supporters can try to outdo each other in petition signers.

There is now spirited discussion over which side will win. Opponents of capital projects seem to win these petition drives about half the time, but this is by far the biggest project ever proposed, and the effect on property taxes will be significant. On the other hand, the most recent remonstrance was defeated by supporters of the Allen County Public Library’s expensive remodeling plan on the strength of hard work by volunteers. The school system will be able to muster many more volunteers than the library had.

One thing is certainly true. If you are a property owner in the Fort Wayne Community Schools district, this affects you. Make up your mind and sign one side’s petition – or don’t complain later if you don’t like the outcome.

Mmmm-kay.....

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/16987242.htm

Posted on Wed, Mar. 28, 2007

Letters to the editor

We’re not fooled by money grabs

There’s a business that uses the slogan “our reputation is our future.” Our community leaders should take note. The school task force chairman raised money from contractors to elect board members who will vote on his building recommendations, but our leaders say it’s unimportant to them how that looks.

The news media willingly promote the attendance estimates for the new stadium to help sell the Harrison Square project. Just months before, media reports insisted baseball attendance is grossly exaggerated. Even if we believe those estimates and you doubled the ticket prices, with the extra going to pay off the stadium, by the time the current players are on Social Security the stadium would be half paid.

That’s ironic, since we’re told Memorial Stadium is shot after 13 years. Politicians say no property tax will be used. If we have all that money available from other funds, and they won’t need to levy additional property tax to replace the money diverted from those funds, then we were being overtaxed to begin with, weren’t we?

The money grabs keep getting more outlandish and frequent. This isn’t only about revitalization. It’s about exploiting one class of taxpayers because politicians can. If anyone tries to question one of these schemes, people pushing it cry that the taxpayers are dumb hicks. They are the ones who keep wanting money from us. Is that supposed to inspire future support?

Indiana leads the nation in home foreclosures. It’s not the taxpayers who are dumb; it’s the people who think we will rally behind leaders who don’t care who their plans hurt or leaders we don’t think we can trust. You should have learned that from the government-consolidation meetings. Fort Wayne’s future won’t be determined by how many breaks our leaders give to every promoter with an agenda to push, but rather by how few they give to the taxpaying customers they expect will support them.

Douglas D. Rodenbeck Sr.

Yeah, that whole private or public money thing does get some reactions.
Let's have someone else explain it:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/16819604.htm

Posted on Fri, Mar. 02, 2007

A guest column by Ron Reinking

Muncie and Ball brothers show strength of private developments

You could read the recent news that all but one hotel developer refrained from bidding on the Harrison Square project two ways: 1) That the city didn’t make its incentive package rich enough; or 2) that the experts judged the project economically and politically infeasible, as one pointedly said in his letter to the city.

Now, there is room for two points of view on downtown development. Indeed, if there were an obvious solution, there would be no troubled downtowns.You should be concerned, though, when one side confuses itself with the other. It is then that the discussion becomes a shell game and in the shuffle it becomes impossible to find the pea, impossible for your community to arrive at a logical strategy for growth. So it is that Fort Wayne and Allen County government, using tax revenue from myriad sources, have come to be confused with private investment. This is a consequence of the legislature removing traditional constraints on how tax revenue can be used, i.e., a tax on restaurants meant only to add a wing to a coliseum might now be used to build competing restaurants, sports stadiums, hotels, retail shops and condominiums.
Indiana history, however, tells us that prosperity comes to those communities that understand the inherent economic differences between private and public money and are wary of commingling the two.

That lesson is ironic, as it turns out. For there is another story about how Ball Glass came to Indiana. It is told by Frank Clayton Ball in his 1937 memoir. And although his story has the same ending, it teaches a different lesson.

Dr. Cecil Bohanon of the economics department of Ball State University explains that Ball had narrowed his search to Muncie and Bowling Green, Ohio, both having the requisite supply of natural gas for firing glass.

In Bowling Green, the city council had argued for 10 days over an incentive package that required issuance of a municipal bond secured by property taxes. The use of property tax unavoidably split the community into two factions, one with property and one without.

And as we in Fort Wayne seem to be learning the hard way, the politics of taking money from some people and giving it to other people can be complex. Ball left for Muncie before the council could reach a decision.

In Muncie, a decision was ready and waiting. A syndicate of businessmen (independent of local government) had purchased 120 acres surrounding the site proposed for Ball’s glass plant. Here is Bohanon’s analysis, published in the spring 2004 issue of The Indiana Policy Review, of their ultimately successful proposal:

“I doubt if they gave the gift ($5,000 and seven acres) to the Balls entirely out of public-spiritedness. I think they gave it on the promise of the development that would ensue, from the pros- pects of an increase in the value of their property adjacent to the Ball plant.

“Yes, these folks may also have been public-spirited; I have no question that they were. But they also had private interests. Back in Bowling Green, where public spiritedness was supposed to rule, everyone was arguing and trying to pick each other’s pockets.”

In Fort Wayne, déjÀ vu, the argument on city council still is between those who think growth should be prompted by government and those who think not.

Again, they both have well-crafted positions. Again, they both have the economic well-being of Fort Wayne at heart.

Nonetheless, it would be wise to ask proponents of downtown development which school they favor — Muncie or Bowling Green. Beware the one who says both. The two are miles apart on the economic map, and only one uses its own money.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald R. Reinking owns an accounting firm with offices in downtown Fort Wayne.

Remember the old saying "If it doesn't play in Peoria"? Well, how about
"If it's not financially feasable in Fort Wayne?" Bah! That's not important,
if it's for the kids right? ;)

Lotsa good thoughts, but lotsa wanderings...

Art