[PointOneSeven]

I know .45 ACP FMJ ammo gets the nod as a viable self defense load, but how about in .40 S&W?




Forgive me if it's been discussed, but the search button is failing me. Thanks in advance.

[waynedm]

Oh no! Not another one of these!

[RNB65]

Ball ammo will kill you just as dead as hollow point ammo. You may die a little slower since ball ammo probably won't do as much vascular damage as JHP, but the end result will be pretty much the same with either one.

[nwilliams]

It will get the job done if the situation ever required you to use it. I carry a .40 M&P as my CCW and have carried FMJ in it as well. Just because the .45 may be more popular doesn't exclude less powerful rounds as defense loads. Even a .32 can be an effective defense load in a situation where having a gun is still better than having nothing at all.

[CountGlockula]

NEVER use FMJ as self defense, but more for range time.

Stick to Hallow Points for home defense.

[waynedm]

NEVER use FMJ as self defense,

:rolleyes:

I say never use hollow points for self defense.

[Redhat]

Do a search on penetration tests for ball vs HP's. You'll probably find that Ball over penetrates and most knowledgeable folks (LE depts and such) recognize that it can easily go through more walls of your house.

HPs are capable of penetrating walls also.

Check out the testing and make your own informed decision accordingly.

[Onmilo]

They all fall to hardball and this is the reason I have never been impressed with .40 caliber firearms.
The only allowance a .40 caliber offers over a .45 is a slightly smaller package with a few more cartridges in the magazine and a short and extremely intense pressure curve with very little room for error.

To try and answer the question directly, .40 S&W full metal jacket cartridges are no less, and no more, effective than 9mm or .45 acp full metal jacketed cartridges.

[Texas Colt]

Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.

Whether you are shooting FMJ or the latest whiz-bang JHP, shot placement is still the most critical thing.

If you can hit what you are shooting at (accurately, quickly, and when drawing from the holster) and your gun functions 100% with FMJ, then go for it.

[waynedm]

To try and answer the question directly, .40 S&W full metal jacket cartridges are no less, and no more, effective than 9mm or .45 acp full metal jacketed cartridges.

I think that's the best response I have ever seen on any of the caliber versus caliber debates.

[PO2Hammer]

I always thought that Federal's 155 grain AE FMJ would make a great load for anyone who wants/needs to use FMJ for serious matters. It's a pretty hot load, noticably hotter than Federal's 165 (midrange) load. Light and fast with a relatively wide flat point, should have good energy transfer for a FMJ.

I bet our boys 'over there' wouldn't mind a hot .40 caliber FMJ to feed their sidearms.

[jibjab]

I load my .45 acp for self defense with 230gr fmj I feel this is the most reliable round and has the penetration to get the job done. In my Makarov 95gr fmj and my S&W 36 Speer 158 fmj RNFP +p I think the 148gr WC would be a good load as well.
For the .357 mag. and other like rounds, I think HP's have a place for self defense, just my 2 cents.

[Waywatcher]

It's a mediocre choice.

Cruise on over to www.stoppingpower.net/forum and do some research.

Both field and scientific tests point to the fact that JHP's are better.

[ravencon]

I load my .45 acp for self defense with 230gr fmj I feel this is the most reliable round and has the penetration to get the job done.

If you use FMJ to assure reliability that must mean you're shooting a 1911:neener: Sorry, couldn't resist.

[M2 Carbine]

This is the two extremes. A .223 JSP (from a Kel Tec PLR 9 inch barrel) and a JHP 45ACP Speer Gold Dot.

If you believe a FMJ round is as effective as a (good) JSP/HP bullet then by all means use it.
Personally I'll use SP or HP when available.:)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/PLRRemJSPand45GD.jpg

[benelli12]

Quote:
To try and answer the question directly, .40 S&W full metal jacket cartridges are no less, and no more, effective than 9mm or .45 acp full metal jacketed cartridges.

I think that's the best response I have ever seen on any of the caliber versus caliber debates.

Not to start a war, but in my opinion, 45 ball is alot more effective than 9mm ball. If I had to choose one for personal defense, I'd go with the 45 fmj.

[Mortech]

The ONLY reason I see to carry FMJ ammo for selfdefense is that you live somewhere like New Jersey .

[Silvanus]

45 ball is alot more effective than 9mm ball

Yes, 2,43mm make a HUGE difference:rolleyes:

[Onmilo]

It doesn't make a difference in a handgun but if one really feels compelled to spend thirty dollars for a box of hollowpoints I am not going to stop that person.
This here is after all, a free market economy.

Personally, if I wasn't so very commited to preventing the most horrific spread of lead poisoning,,,, I would advocate non jacketed, non hollowpoint lead bullets as one of the most effective stopping bullets in a handgun.:D

[Redhat]

Just out of curiosity...On what information/experience do you base your opinion?

Thanks

[Walkalong]

Quote:
NEVER use FMJ as self defense,



I say never use hollow points for self defense.

I don't want to be shot with either, but I rather be shot by ball ammo if I must.:)


Quote:
45 ball is alot more effective than 9mm ball

Yes, 2,43mm make a HUGE difference

Yes, Yes it does, sorry. It's the area, not the diameter.:banghead:

[Redhat]

Yes, 2,43mm make a HUGE difference

This is simple. Whic one makes a bigger hole? 45ACP, agree?

If you agree that the 45 ACP is in fact bigger than the 9mm, then what you have to decide is if it gives you an edge worth taking.

I believe it does and that's why I like .45 cal.

By the way, have you ever fired 45ACP?

[PO2Hammer]

Cruise on over to www.stoppingpower.net/forum and do some research.

Evans and Marshall sell books for a living. They ignore all shootings that require more than one shot, and all shootings that involve barriers and anything else that isn't a one shot, face to face encounter.

Also if you disagree with them, you get banned immediatly.

[Silvanus]

By the way, have you ever fired 45ACP?

Yes, I have. So what?

I just think that if you hit somebody in the same spot with a 9mm, .40 or .45 it won't make a difference. If the hit was ineffective with a 9mm it would also have been ineffective with the slightly larger .45.

you have to decide is if it gives you an edge worth taking.

And I decide for me that it is not (an 'edge worth taking'). I rather have a higher magazine capacity and a caliber I personally shoot better.

But I'm not saying that the 9mm caliber is better, it's only better for me.

[Onmilo]

"Have you ever fired a .45 acp?" :banghead:

Why, yes, yes I have.
It was such a formidable and frightening experience I wet myself and had to run off and change my panties.:D

Mods, maybe you should lock this one.

[jibjab]

Here's a interesting read; http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_StoppingPower.htm

[trueblue1776]

"To try and answer the question directly, .40 S&W full metal jacket cartridges are no less, and no more, effective than 9mm or .45 acp full metal jacketed cartridges."

I will have to disagree with this statement, I learned in 7th grade, mass x velocity.....

[Kymasabe]

personally, I use HP's for all my self defense and carry guns. I want to create the largest, most jagged wound channel possible and I don't see that happening with FMJ. I use Federal HydroShoks in my 9mm's, Speer 135gr Gold Dots in my .38 snubs and Winchester Ranger Hp's in my .40cals...

[Redhat]

Silvanus,

Even though you and I choose different calibers, at least your reasoning is well thought out and I can respect that.

My reasoning on the .45 is that it stands a better chance, small though it may be, of connecting with vitals due to the increased size of the projectile. That is worth it to me.

I also agree that a hit in the RIGHT spot with either will accomplish the task.

[MikePGS]

Properly placed, almost any caliber will do the job. That being said one of the primary factors in stopping someone quickly is the wound channel. Obviously the bigger the bullet the bigger the wound channel there is. That being said, another factor in stopping someone quickly is the amount of energy delivered to the target. With a hollowpoint bullet the odds are better that the bullet will stay in target, thus dumping all of the energy from the projectile into the target. Thats not to say that a FMJ is going to be ineffective, but rather that a HP is more likely to stay in the target, providing that it expands properly. In regards to 9mm vs .45 acp ball, i don't know if anyone debates the fact that the .45 is more effective, providing the shooter does his job in regards to shot placement. As for .40 caliber, in my opinion (based upon objective data) this is a very effective caliber, since it pushes medium to heavy weight bullets down the barrel at significantly higher velocites than a .45, thus providing more energy in shorter barrels than many .45's do. The best .40 caliber load provides more energy than the .45, but again the wound channel isn't as large, and thus if your short placement isn't ideal the .45 might be a good resort.

[Claude Clay]

Mike...well said. I carry a 40 HP 3 seasons, but winter i go to 45acp ball ammo to penetrate multi-layered/heavy winter coated BG's.

[cj2340]

Anything made by Corbon is probably loaded as powerful as can be. You would do well to use anything by them in JHP.

[givo08]

I will have to disagree with this statement, I learned in 7th grade, mass x velocity.....

You must have caught the lecture on momentum then and missed the one on energy :rolleyes:

E = (.5) mass * velocity ^2. Obviously faster rounds are generally going to have an energy advantage since v is squared while heavier rounds have a momentum advantage...

[MikePGS]

I just wanted to add a bit to my previous post. I meant to specify that in 4 inch or so barrels the .40 caliber seems to exceed the amount of energy that a .45 will generate, but with a five inch barrel (in particular with +P ammunition) the .45 surpasses the .40 caliber in a lot of cases (Based on the stats from the Guns and Ammo buyers guide tables). Either way, either gun should be more than sufficient, provided that you do your job:P

[Silvanus]

Hey Redhat,

I'm glad I made my point without sounding like a know-it-all kind of guy:)
I realize that the caliber and platform one choses is always a personal matter and there is no real point in imposing your choice upon others.

[Walkalong]

Energy is not everything. It has to be transferred to the target as well. I like a large frontal area myself. I like the .45. These days there are HP's that do quite well through clothing also. The .40 is also a good choice and is a great round, I just like the .45 better.

Now, with that said. If you do not shoot the .45 well, you will be better served with a .40. If you don't shoot either one of those well, you will be better served with a 9MM. Some who dislike shooting the .40 love the .45 etc.

Shot placement is paramount. Caliber is secondary. I want the biggest frontal area I can deliver effectively. For me, it is the .45 ACP. Now, in revolvers... .44 Spl. is hard to beat as well.:)

[cookekdjr]

I bet evan marshall has some data collected about this topic at stoppingpower.net. It would be worth checking out.
From my personal experience, I have investigated and prosecuted a number of shootings involving .40 S&W. FMJ and jhp performed the same. Both performed very very well.
-David

[SkiLune]

Had this very debate with my instructor, and neither one of us changed our opinions, though he IS the instructor so perhaps I will come around to his way of thinking over time.

He is a 1911, .45 cal guy, and nothing will convince him that any other gun compares. He carries his Wilson Combat, with two extra 8 round mags.

I own a 9mm with a 17 round mag, and a .40 with a 12 round mag. I can now punch holes in about a six inch group from 15 yards with the 9-- nothing spectacular, I know, but I'm getting better.

With the .40, my accuracy is a little worse -- still getting used to the kick as I only recently purchased this gun. So, for now, the 9 is my go to gun at home. I think 17 rounds without changing mags is an equalizer. If I can get my groupings better, I may switch to the .40 which is a compact model and carries very nicely.

[dhomoney]

<quote>Not to start a war, but in my opinion, 45 ball is alot more effective than 9mm ball. If I had to choose one for personal defense, I'd go with the 45 fmj.</quote>

This is without a doubt true from the reports coming out of Iraq and other places. Definitely a bigger round is preferred, especially with hardball.

[WeThePeople]

Although one round might cause more tissue damage than another similarly placed round, even a .22 can produce the desired effects.

Some time ago now, a gentleman in Louisville, KY bagged an armed bank robber who ran at him with a gun in one hand and a bag of cash in the other.

You know what he used? His .22 pocket pistol with a carefully placed shot.

I think that he received some sort of award from the police department.

My opinion, practice often and carry what you like to shoot.

[makarovnik]

Some guns feed FMJ better than hollowpoints. Reliability is more important than expansion. If you're using a slow bullet, say under 1000 FPS, I'm not sure I believe those bullets will expand reliably in human flesh. That being said, if your .40 S&W feeds hollowoints reliably, that's what I would use.

[Feanaro]

Energy is not everything.

Yep. The energy has to do some damage instead of, say, becoming sound or heat.

I will have to disagree with this statement, I learned in 7th grade, mass x velocity.....

Equals momentum, which pistol rounds have a pathetic amount of.

[woodstock72000@yahoo.com]

The FEDERAL 165 GRAIN HYDRO-SHOCK>>>> There is a reason that this is a nationally POLICE ISSUED AMMO.


What has the 1911 got to do with this question????

[possum]

I know .45 ACP FMJ ammo gets the nod as a viable self defense load, but how about in .40 S&W?

:scrutiny:
i never advise that people use fmj as a defense rd. sure it will work but so will beating some one with a ball bat. the problem is over penetraition, think about the target and what is behind it which is a basic gun handling rule, in your home but especially out on the street where others are in abundance. you want a rd that will penetrate enough to end the engagement and expand inside the target but not leave the target.

[strangelittleman]

While any type/caliber of round can be pressed into a self-defense role, I'm always concerned about what is beyond my intended tgt. Think of the places one is most likely to get into a self-defense shooting....(while in a parking lot, entering/exiting one's car, inside one's home w/only a few layers of sheetrock between you & your loved ones, etc.)
I personally don't want my round(s) passing through the oppo and striking some child, family member, or other non-involved. That would be devastating on so many levels. It's for this reason that I use lightly constructed hollowpoints in my off-duty sidearm. Just my opinion....

[Deanimator]

I stick with hollowpoints for self-defense. Walmart usually has Winchester hollowpoints of some kind for a reasonable price. In fact, their 9x19mm 147gr. JHPs are excellent. I don't recall if they have a similar bargain .40S&W, but I think they do.

[.45&TKD]

I think this is a good question, because in a true SHTF situation, the first ammunition you will run out of is HP's.

That's one reason that my go to gun is a .45 acp.
(I do have a couple of .40's for cost effective additional quantity).

[rcmodel]

I think 17 rounds without changing mags is an equalizer.Only if you subscribe to the "Spray & Pray" school of gunfighting!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[cookekdjr]

Well, I've been to alot of autopsies and I've never seen a handgun hp bullet expand from contact with human tissues. Ever. I'm sure it happens, I've just never seen it. I just carry jhp's b/c the ones I choose have low-flash powders and higher velocity.
RE: effectiveness of .40 fmj, it is very effective. No different performance than the jhp's. I have seen many, many corpses that died from a fmj .40 bullet. JME, YMMV.

[seeker_two]

This is simple. Whic one makes a bigger hole? 45ACP, agree?


In diameter, yes.....but in depth of penetration, 9mm FMJ is usually the winner.... :p


Don't settle for less....use a .454 Casul, and you get both.... :cool:

[CCWINNC]

Answer for FMJ or JHP is Corbon Powerball...feeds like a FMJ acts like JHP...best of both worlds.

[.357 magnum]

Actually Possum hit the nail on the head a few posts ago. Most FMJ rounds these days are going to go in then out the other side of another person with a lot of energy left in them. When using Ball ammo you always have an entrance wound and exit wound. Hollow Points deposit there energy in the target and will stop a threat much faster then Ball ammo. Because they Expand, they will also do a lot more instant destruction. Self defense ammo is made to stop a threat. Ball ammo is made to practice with. Ball ammo is obviously capable of stopping someone, but it normally takes more shots. And poses a danger to those who may be hit by an exiting round. I am not insulting the original poster, they were just asking a question. But too those that answer Ball is made for self defense, that is just plain silly. I was in LE over twenty years ago. They would have laughed their a$$ off if someone suggested ball ammo was better then Hollow points for stopping a perp, even back then:eek:! Bullet technology has improved quite a bit, even making some of the 9mm +p rounds very close to .45acp levels of stopping power. I am a .45 man myself. But I own all three calibers and I feel safe using my 9mm's, .40's or .45's for self defense, with the proper ammo. As I have said on previous threads for those of you who will say shot placement is important. I say No Sh$$t, Thank You Captain Obvious! We should all practice as much as possible. Practice your tactics too. I have been in gun fights. You would be surprised how much learning to find cover and when to return fire comes into play. I always tell people I love Mag capacity, because in real life there are more misses then hits. Except in close quarters, were your reaction time means everything. Keeping watch on what goes on around you and your surroundings at all times will save your life in the end.

The Best to All!

Frank

[skipjack_1st]

Echo what .357 magnum said!!!

[Mad Magyar]

Only if you subscribe to the "Spray & Pray" school of gunfighting!


Now, we are getting somewhere...."The Fastest with the Mostest"..:D

[wally]

Shot placement. Shot placement. Shot placement.

Whether you are shooting FMJ or the latest whiz-bang JHP, shot placement is still the most critical thing.

If you can hit what you are shooting at (accurately, quickly, and when drawing from the holster) and your gun functions 100% with FMJ, then go for it.
__________________
Ted Nugent for President!!!


TexasColt has nailed it! If your gun is not 100% with FMJ I seriously doubt it'd be 100% with any JHP either

Look at the Reagan assination atempt footage, two unintentionally well placed .22 rounds were one shot drops, the poorly place round on the intended target left him not knowing he was hit until he saw the blood.

--wally.