The Hits Just Keep Coming!


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Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 12:16 PM
Wow, Chicago's finest have apparently launched an all out campaign to get to know the public!

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070325jefferson-story,1,3891028.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Every day it becomes increasingly more obvious that the Chicago PD needs a Federal attitude adjustment...

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Matt King
March 24, 2007, 12:23 PM
That’s what happens when you have an unarmed populace. "Public Officials" with guns will begin to abuse those that don't.

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 12:38 PM
That’s what happens when you have an unarmed populace. "Public Officials" with guns will begin to abuse those that don't.
And if I'm not mistaken, the article SPECIFICALLY states that the men fear retaliation.

Here's an interesting legal question:

Can an entire police department be tried [or sued] under RICO?

Clearly we have MULTIPLE instances of the Chicago PD engaging in a CONSPIRACY to OBSTRUCT JUSTICE.

I've been telling a leftwing guy in my office about the Chicago PD for a couple of years now. This is only the icing on the cake, and I KNOW there's more to come...

Matt King
March 24, 2007, 12:40 PM
And if I'm not mistaken, the article SPECIFICALLY states that the men fear retaliation.

Here's an interesting legal question:

Can an entire police department be tried [or sued] under RICO?

Clearly we have MULTIPLE instances of the Chicago PD engaging in a CONSPIRACY to OBSTRUCT JUSTICE.

I've been telling a leftwing guy in my office about the Chicago PD for a couple of years now. This is only the icing on the cake, and I KNOW there's more to come...


As weak as the ACLU is on gun issues, with something like this; they would be the perfect organization to lead a lawsuit.

scout26
March 24, 2007, 12:46 PM
I'm sure Da Mayor is so happy he insisted on all those video cameras being installed in businesses......:rolleyes:

Ratzinger_p38
March 24, 2007, 12:54 PM
Texas - The ACLU is a fraud. It would be better if it had a hostile take over by Libertarians.

If you read their website, they support the phony 'collective right' garbage - which I find to be funny because if that were true, then it would certainly apply to the first also! They have an 'absolute' approach to the 1a which I agree with, but they dont support that for the 2nd? I call fraud.

ACLU was founded by several leftists, including anarchists and communists (such as Elizabeth Gurley Flynn). They are a leftist front group, they have always been reluctant to defend 'rightists' like Neo Nazis.

FeebMaster
March 24, 2007, 12:56 PM
Why do you guys have to bash the police?

They made the best decisions they could under the circumstances.

They just want to go home to their famillies like everyone else.

Let's wait and hear their side of the story before we pass judgement.

cngerms
March 24, 2007, 12:58 PM
Please post the text of the article. Thank you!

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 12:59 PM
Let's wait and hear their side of the story before we pass judgement.
I'd certainly love to hear that sniveling coward Abbate's side of the story... of course I imagine it'd sound pretty much like the crudest rap CD you've ever heard. Given his chivalrous attitude toward women, he's got a bright future with the Taliban or Al Qaeda. I certainly don't want subhuman swill like him in MY country...

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 01:02 PM
Please post the text of the article. Thank you!
That's probably a copywrite violation. It's why I posted the link.

I just emailed Bill O'Rielly the link. Wouldn't it be a hoot if he were the first one to broadcast THAT tape?

Pilgrim
March 24, 2007, 01:03 PM
Why do you guys have to bash the police?

They made the best decisions they could under the circumstances.

They just want to go home to their famillies like everyone else.

Just doing jobs no one else will do.

Pilgrim

saltydog452
March 24, 2007, 01:26 PM
Excluding climate, sea level, Opra, and wealthy commodity brokerage houses, there doesn't seem to be a whole bunch of difference in NOLA and Chi-Town.

salty.

Thain
March 24, 2007, 01:31 PM
Texas - The ACLU is a fraud. It would be better if it had a hostile take over by Libertarians.

And that is why my wallet contains my Libertarian Party membership card, snuggled up warm and cozy with my ACLU membership card and a buissness card I made up for Pink Pistols. :D

If libertarians want the ACLU to change, then they need to join it and get active. I always try to remind them that civil liberties means all ten ammendments in the Bill of Rights: Not just the 1st and 4th.

I've actually considered joining Handgun Control, Inc.... but the Brady's don't give their "members" any vote. Shocking, I know...

pacodelahoya
March 24, 2007, 02:18 PM
Now I know that not all cops are crooked. It's just that they all look alike to me, and generally speaking, one doesn't have time to get to know them personally while dealing with them in their official capacity. Now if the good ones were to wear white uniforms, while the bad one wore dark blue, maybe that would help.;)

In the mean time, I treat them like I would any potential threat, keep my distance and try of stay out of sight.

kcmarine
March 24, 2007, 02:22 PM
Why do we bash the police?

Because the department has been covering the a$$ of a guy who should have never been a police officer and went out, got drunk, and beat up an innocent- and unarmed- citizen. Not to mention that they've done the exact same thing in other bad- cop cases. How that Daley guy keeps getting elected, I'll never figure out.

F4GIB
March 24, 2007, 02:23 PM
Bad cops exist only because the "good" cops let them.

I have stated my opinion on several occasions. I admire most of the LEO's I know. I have both family, and very close friends who do "Serve and Protect" and they have both my graditude and my respect. They do it right.

No. Actually they don't "do it right."

Every, every department or agency (federal, state, or local) has one or more of these "thugs in blue." The rest of them - ALL OF THE REST OF THEM - are knowing accomplices in the cover ups that occur daily. It is no excuse that "I personally don't beat suspects or other civilians or shake them down for cash or drugs" if you participate in the great blue wall of silence. And every one of them does.

So long as any officer (which means every officer more than a week out of the Academy) knows of criminal activity by other officers and doesn't "rat them out," they are no better than the worst bad apple. Imagine selling your soul for $19.95 per hour plus overtime.

If this is "cop bashing," it's a bashing that is well deserved. Deserved by every one of you cops because all of you participate in the constant, continuing cover-up (unless you are assigned to IAD, in which case I apologize). It's the thousands of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" officers that bring the DISGUST upon the entire LEO profession because it belongs on the entire LEO profession.

The CPD is just more forthright about using (abusing?) their LEO "privileges."

really don't know about the s**t that regularly goes on in every department (even the glorious FBI). I'm even willing to "assume" that the LEO's who post on THR are in that subgroup.]

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 02:44 PM
It's the thousands of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" officers that bring the DISGUST upon the entire LEO profession because it belongs on the entire LEO profession.
The Chicago PD has gone way beyond "stop snitching". It's now actively obstructing justice, from Abbate and other cops threatening the victim and her boss, to the CPD itself throwing the original misdemeanor assault "softball" at Abbate, to the actual refusal of the police to intervene in the second criminal assault by offduty police.

At this point, the Chicago PD has become the sort of "Racketeer Influenced Corrupt Organization" envisioned by the RICO statute(s).

Two craven assaults by Chicago cops only since December, and who knows what will come to light in the coming week? I haven't actually checked, but I'll bet my local police department hasn't had that many criminal assaults against citizens by officers, since I moved here in '99.

No police department gets to this point without going much farther, indeed all the way to murder. Have no doubt, it's coming. You'll just have to wait a little while for THOSE stories to come out.

El Tejon
March 24, 2007, 04:08 PM
I know some people, good people, may doubt stories like what happened to me back in '93 at the hands of CPD. However, shake downs, assaults, thefts and robberies against innocent law-abiding (well, we might have all been drinking but we quiet and keeping our hands to ourselves) civilians, "the little people", every week, if not every day in Chicago.

The proper response to this banditry is a bullet to the brain pan. However, the cops in Chicago know they have nothing to fear from a disarmed citizenry and can do whatever they wish.

The USA of the Northern District is deeply tied to Daley's machine and will not dare move against CPD. Daley may throw out scapegoats but the problem with CPD is cultural. A corrupt tyrannical government which fosters a corrupt thuggish police force.

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 04:10 PM
The USA of the Northern District is deeply tied to Daley's machine and will not dare move against CPD.
Then Bush needs to fire some of THEM too.

nico
March 24, 2007, 05:16 PM
and to think, I thought it was hard to believe when my girlfriend told me that everyone who gets pulled over for any traffic violation in the Chicago area gets their car searched. . .

El Tejon
March 24, 2007, 05:17 PM
USA is not a them. The USA is a he, Patrick Fitzgerald, you know, the guy that prosecuted Scooter. http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/iln/

Can you imagine the uproar if Bush were to fire Fitzgerald?

Daley is dug in so deep (politically) you need a backhoe, flamethrower and an aircraft carrier to get to him (tied in with the Mob, the feds, Blago, corporations, overseas money). No way the USA moves against CPD unless Daley says so.

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 05:26 PM
Can you imagine the uproar if Bush were to fire Fitzgerald?
He's got nothing to lose. In FACT, it'd be to his advantage.

Thain
March 24, 2007, 05:57 PM
Hmm, everytime I read another thread about Chicago, California, or New York City... I have to wonder. :confused:

The Civil War shows, and the Constitution implies, that a state can not secced from the Union... But can the rest of the states "vote `im off the island," so to speak?

Other than Jessica Alba, has anything good come out of California in the last 25 years?

Aguila Blanca
March 24, 2007, 07:59 PM
The Civil War shows, and the Constitution implies, that a state can not secced from the Union...
Can you point to any language in the Constitution that states or implies this? I've not seen it. My reading on the topic overwhelmingly demonstrates (to me, at least) that President Lincoln was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off base and in over his head in militarily denying the Southern states their right to separate themselves from the Union.

Mad Chemist
March 24, 2007, 08:40 PM
Please post the text of the article. Thank you!

That's probably a copywrite violation. It's why I posted the link.


Please review the Fair use doctrine before propagating another internet myth.:banghead:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

It's perfectly acceptable to repost a news article on a free public board such as THR.

BTW, I didn't post the Wiki page because it is quite long and would clutter the thread.:neener:

thexrayboy
March 24, 2007, 08:50 PM
This makes two recent episodes where "business as usual" by the Chicago PD
got recorded on observation cameras in business establishements. If these cameras had not been in place and recording this activity none of these
incidences would have seen the light of day.

These officers while corrupt can't be such total morons as to assume they can continue these antisocial activities without running the risk of getting caught in the future. My bet is that in the future, when these things occur, CPD will roll up, take the business owner or manager in custody and threaten them with unspeakable things until the video tapes documenting this criminal activity get turned over to the arresting criminals for proper review and disposal.

F4GIB
March 24, 2007, 09:11 PM
That's probably a copywrite violation. It's why I posted the link.

No, it is not IF they allow you to e-mail the article to someone else. The Chicago Tribune does that.

This is according to my very persnickety copyright lawyer colleague.

F4GIB
March 24, 2007, 09:19 PM
Where are the usual defenders of the police.

I haven't heard the usual whinning - we don't know, we weren't there, it a crappy low paying job, all they wanted was to go home safely, wait for the CPD investigation (huh?), and on and on and on.

Caught red-handed so the cat got your tongues?

The blue wall of silence is ................


........... silent for once.

Turkey Creek
March 24, 2007, 09:41 PM
Is there really any difference in the CPD now and the CPD when Capone and Bugsy were bribing their way to fame?- I don't think so-

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 10:07 PM
Is there really any difference in the CPD now and the CPD when Capone and Bugsy were bribing their way to fame?- I don't think so-
When Big Al was around they had adult supervision. Now they've just got Daley.

I predict that this is going to get ugly, with complainants and witnesses having "accidents" or committing "suicide". I believe it was Stalin who said that any fool can commit a murder, but it takes a real artist to commit a suicide... on somebody ELSE. I notice too that Mr. Zorn's blog at the Tribune wouldn't post my comments regarding the latest [KNOWN] felonious assault by the Chicago PD. Too "inflammatory", I guess... :rolleyes:

noops
March 24, 2007, 10:18 PM
Why do you guys have to bash the police?

They made the best decisions they could under the circumstances.


You really have to be joking. First we have Abbate, then this, with four guys getting beaten down heavily (one requiring surgery), on video, who then were not arrested for anything, all on video, with the story (according to the newsies) confirmed by video? And you guys wonder why we bash the police?

I myself got beaten by a cop once after an illegal search. It happens. And the cops that do it are bad. The cops that look the other way are just as bad.

It doesn't matter that they're off duty. Cops, fireman, military, whatever: some jobs, you're never really off duty. In those jobs, the job is your life and lifestyle. And they should be held to a higher standard because they are ensuring public trust. If they can't do it, they should rot. They should get WORSE sentences for their crimes, not better because they are cops.

Noops

Deanimator
March 24, 2007, 10:32 PM
You really have to be joking.
Yes, I believe he was.

gunsmith
March 24, 2007, 10:36 PM
that prevents folks from link/story posting?
I don't know.

That's probably a copywrite violation. It's why I posted the link.

in that case Do Not tear off the tags on your old mattresses!

Autolycus
March 25, 2007, 12:00 AM
Here is the text of the article:

2nd police attack alleged
Bar video reportedly shows beating of 4

By David Heinzmann
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 24, 2007, 2:30 PM CDT

Prosecutors are investigating allegations that six off-duty Chicago cops were caught on a downtown bar's video camera beating four businessmen, the second such incident in recent months, law enforcement sources said.

In the Dec. 15 beating at the Jefferson Tap and Grille, one alleged victim required reconstructive surgery on his face and another suffered four broken ribs, said Sally Saltzberg, a lawyer for the men.

Other bar patrons called 911. But when patrol officers responded, the off-duty officers involved allegedly spoke to them and the patrol officers left without intervening, sources said.

Security cameras inside and outside the bar recorded most of the beating, said Saltzberg, who said she has not seen the tape herself.

Law enforcement sources have described the content of the video to the Tribune.

The probe began with a complaint to the Office of Professional Standards. The Cook County state's attorney's office is considering criminal charges against the officers, sources said.

Police spokeswoman Monique Bond said she could not comment on the ongoing investigation, but she acknowledged that Supt. Philip Cline is aware of the case.

Details of the incident have emerged in the wake of accusations that Chicago Police Officer Anthony Abbate beat a woman Feb. 19 at a Northwest Side bar. The incident also was caught on the bar's security video. Charges against Abbate, 38, were upgraded this week to felony aggravated battery, from a misdemeanor.

Off-duty at the time of the attack, he is accused of beating bartender Karolina Obrycka at Jesse's Short Stop Inn because she refused to serve him another drink.

Saltzberg said the four men beaten at Jefferson Tap are frustrated that, given the existence of the video, no formal action has yet been taken.

"My clients are incredibly disappointed and they're angry," she said. She said they also remain fearful of retribution from police officers.

Saltzberg filed a petition Feb. 27 in Cook County Circuit Court seeking the names of the officers, but said Friday she has not been given the information. The petition is a precursor to a lawsuit, but the men have not formally filed suit.

The four businessmen--two of whom are traders at the Chicago Board of Trade--were shooting pool at the bar, 325 N. Jefferson St., when, Saltzberg said, they were jumped without provocation. The men--brothers Aaron and Barry Gilfand, Adam Mastrucci and Scott Lowrance--contend they had no contact with the officers before the attack as the bartender announced last call shortly before 2 a.m., Saltzberg said.

Law enforcement sources confirmed Saltzberg's account.

Barry Gilfand, who manages a restaurant, came to the bar with his brother, a private investor, after he closed the eatery. They were met by Lowrance and Mastrucci, who are traders.

As he stood at the billiards table, Aaron Gilfand was approached by a large man who said something to him, Saltzberg said. Because of the bar noise, he didn't hear the man's remark and just responded, "Sure, man," she said.

He then was grabbed from behind by another man who put him in a chokehold and threw him to the floor, she said.

Simultaneously, the other three men were attacked and thrown to the floor, Saltzberg said. Lowrance allegedly was knocked unconscious immediately. Barry Gilfand was dragged out onto the sidewalk, she said, where he was beaten.

Through Saltzberg, all four men have declined to speak on the record about the incident.

The men claim that two police squad cars and a police wagon arrived while they were on the sidewalk outside the bar. Aaron Gilfand ran up to one of the police cars and begged the officers to help his brother, who still was being hit, Saltzberg said.

The video depicts one of the off-duty officers, who is a sergeant, waving off a responding officer, a law enforcement source said. The responding officers then left the scene.

After the incident, the Gilfands and Mastrucci ran to the front entrance of Lowrance's home, which is nearby, and watched as the men who beat them left, Saltzberg said.

While Aaron Gilfand was being treated at Northwestern Memorial Hospital for his facial wounds, Saltzberg said, he was photographed by a Chicago police officer who arrived at the hospital. All four men have been interviewed by investigators and have viewed photo lineups multiple times. Some of them were able to positively identify the men involved in the attack in the lineups, Saltzberg said.

The men's legal demand for the names of the officers will come before a Cook County judge on April 2, Saltzberg said.

-----

Tribune staff reporter Jeff Coen contributed to this report.

dheinzmann@tribune.com

Copyright © 2007, Chicago Tribune

Autolycus
March 25, 2007, 12:09 AM
I am tired of reading about the Thugs who seem to be running around in Chicago with guns and badges.

We really need CCW in IL so that we can protect ourselves from the police department. I dont feel safe in Chicago because of the gangs and regular criminals. I used to call the police.

Now I think I am going to start watching out for the police and pray the gangs get to me first.:uhoh:

Remember this is an isolated incident. ;)

NukemJim
March 25, 2007, 08:53 AM
Uhmm.. Guys a few points please

1) Yeah the cops that did these acts need to be put on trial and get to try a little role reversal in the prison system.

2) Some Chicago cops are crooked. I work in Chicago have lived in Chicoland for 25 years, have seen cops shake down people. Yes police corruption/brutalitity exist in Chicago. But not all cops are crooked. IIRC there are like 13000 CPD officers. In any group of 13k people there are going to be rotten stinking apples. Find them, try em, and incarcarate them, but realize that they are not all the cops. IMHO the vast majority of Chi cops are "good cops" based on my interactions with them, my anecdotal evidence is as relevant as yours i.e. not much. :p . (Please note the plural on anecdote is not evidence.)

3) For those posters saying things would be better if ILL and Chi had CCW a few questions please, since I cant CCW:cuss: :banghead: :fire: perhaps I am misunderstanding a few points

A) Both of these incidents occured in bars, while I realize that laws vary from state to state I was under the impression (as always I could be wrong) that the vast majoirty of states banned carrying in bars?

B) in the instance of the 4 businessmen who were attacked, is it normal practice when seeing 2 groups of males fighting to intervene if you are carrying a gun as a private citizen?

C) If in the case of the cop beating the lady bartender it seems to be a neightborhood bar, so if you know a drunk who is a cop is beating someone do you normally draw your gun on him?

D) are there any stats anywhere that show that police corruption and/or police brutality occur at a lower rate in states with CCW? Could you please share your source?

Sorry but I just like to ask questions.

NukemJim
PS I say again arrest, try, convict and sentance the bad cops, but badmouthing a large group of people because of the actions of a few idiots is, IMHO, not The High Road

pacodelahoya
March 25, 2007, 09:39 AM
Jim,

A. In Pa you can.

B. As a participant in the fistfight, I would prefer to be armed if the other participants are.(not that I get into fights)

C. If he is beating a defenseless women who is half is size, I don't see where it would be wrong, Especially where you know he has a gun.( not that long ago a similar situation happened in Ohio? where the brother inlaw shot the cop who was drunk and beating his wife.

D. Can't answer that one sorry.

but badmouthing a large group of people because of the actions of a few idiots is, IMHO, not The High Road

Jim, where do you work? I know that anywhere I have ever worked, that I have known way more about the people that I ever wanted to know. Work places are like gossip stations. I used to be a correctional officer at a place with over 100 employees. I knew which were good and which were bad. So did the administration. Problem was , the administration was bad too. I can't see where any police department is any different.

NukemJim
March 25, 2007, 11:26 AM
where do you work?

A university teaching hospital. Yes there are people there whom I wish did not work there ( I did get one, my supervisor, fired :D ) but I would not badmouth the whole hospital due to the actions of a few individuals.

NukemJim

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 11:54 AM
2) Some Chicago cops are crooked. I work in Chicago have lived in Chicoland for 25 years, have seen cops shake down people. Yes police corruption/brutalitity exist in Chicago. But not all cops are crooked.
How many KNOW ABOUT criminal violence and corruption by fellow police and do NOTHING? What percentage of THEM do you think there are?

"Stop snitching" is just as loathesome when cops say it as rappers. Well, actually MORE loathesome, since you don't swear any kind of oath to uphold the public safety and welfare in order to become a rapper. Interesting isn't it, when police hold themselves to a lower standard of morality than the likes of Suge Knight?

F4GIB
March 25, 2007, 12:30 PM
How many KNOW ABOUT criminal violence and corruption by fellow police and do NOTHING? What percentage of THEM do you think there are?

ALL cops KNOW about the bad ones. ALL cops "see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing." They are ALL willing accomplices to every bit of brutality, theft, sexual abuse, etc that goes on (unless they work in IAD). Even worse they are each perpetrators in the "blue wall of silence" cover up that goes on constantly in every department or agency (even the hallowed FBI).

This is the indictment: Bad cops exist only because the "good" cops let them get away with their crimes.

It's not lax administration, it is a moral failure by every other cop. All they have to do is call the public corruption unit at their local FBI office.

The entire profession is in on the cover up.

feedthehogs
March 25, 2007, 01:10 PM
Just doing jobs no one else will do.

Isn't that what supporters of illegal immigration say?

I know, lets replace the cops will Mexicans.
We can work them hard and pay them crap.
When one gets killed, there's 100 waiting to take their place.

People wouldn't be so outraged if one, the honest and good police officers would come out against this type of behaviour of their own and two the prosecutors would prosecute them with the same vigor that they prosecute the common citizen.

We only ask for the system to be equal. (I know I'm dreaming)

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 02:18 PM
I know, lets replace the cops will Mexicans.
Some people would say that the difference between Mexican police and the Chicago PD is one of the most tortured subtlety...

LawBot5000
March 25, 2007, 02:27 PM
Wow, police officers beating up rich people without provocation. This is exactly the sort of situation tort law is designed for.

I'm guessing chicago will hold off on charging the officers until after the city gets hit with the multimillion dollar judgment. I think they just dont want to have to testify that the officers in question are in jail because of the incident they are being sued over. So basically the city is protecting its own financial interests by declining to prosecute these officers until after the inevitable civil trial.

Of course, if I beat someone up, the police wouldnt care that arresting me might influence the outcome of my civil trial- then again, they dont foot the bill if I lose the civil trial.

I wonder if there is some legal doctrine under which damages could be multiplied when the city declines to prosecute their police officers when they violate somene's civil rights. If there isn't one, we should create it.

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 02:58 PM
I wonder if there is some legal doctrine under which damages could be multiplied when the city declines to prosecute their police officers when they violate somene's civil rights. If there isn't one, we should create it.
It would seem that the RICO statutes were created EXPRESSLY with the Chicago PD in mind...

LawBot5000
March 25, 2007, 03:11 PM
But what are the other RICO predicates that you can charge these officers with? If they just suddenly conspired to lay a beating on someone, that doesnt nececssarily satisfy RICO.

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 03:14 PM
But what are the other RICO predicates that you can charge these officers with? If they just suddenly conspired to lay a beating on someone, that doesnt nececssarily satisfy RICO.
I didn't say the officers. I said the CHICAGO PD. The examples of collusion, conspiracy to obstruct justice, etc., etc., seem to go on forever.

If the Chicago PD operates as a criminal organization, it and those who run it ought to be punished as one.

pacodelahoya
March 25, 2007, 03:32 PM
Jim, the point I was trying(not very well I see) to make is that, if you work in an organization with more than 1 employee, then everyone knows everyone elses personal, and professional business. I find it hard to fathom where the good cops wouldn't know about bad cops. If they do know about them, and turn a blind eye to them, then that makes them bad cops too. Which is the case with the officers in question, and IMO in general (where you have bad cops on a force). Are there forces in the USA that are not corrupt? I'm sure there are but I'll bet they are very small forces where the police are members of the same communities that they patrol.

LAK Supply
March 25, 2007, 03:37 PM
I know, lets replace the cops will Mexicans.


That's a great idea; they could be armed with slingshots! :neener:

GhostlyKarliion
March 25, 2007, 03:51 PM
A) Both of these incidents occured in bars, while I realize that laws vary from state to state I was under the impression (as always I could be wrong) that the vast majoirty of states banned carrying in bars?

Can’t opinionate on this one, I don't drink and don't go to bars, however there is no excuse for those who were there and were not drunk and saw what was happening to not put a stop to it, they are just as guilty as the officer involved.

B) in the instance of the 4 businessmen who were attacked, is it normal practice when seeing 2 groups of males fighting to intervene if you are carrying a gun as a private citizen?

ABSOLUTLEY, two groups of men fighting poses a substantial civil risk factor infringing on the individual Freedom from fear, justifying exercise of the 5th. (That doesn't mean you pull you gun on them first off, but intervene, yes)

C) If in the case of the cop beating the lady bartender it seems to be a neightborhood bar, so if you know a drunk who is a cop is beating someone do you normally draw your gun on him?

You don't have to pull your gun to stop a beating, grabbing the woman by the arm and pulling her away from the man while putting yourself in between them and yelling at her to run would be sufficient. Then if you are attacked and you fear for your life, most certainly you draw your sidearm.

D) are there any stats anywhere that show that police corruption and/or police brutality occur at a lower rate in states with CCW? Could you please share your source?

I don't know of any official studies done, but ask around a bit and the citizenry will give you good feedback, here in Oklahoma it is unheard of, and if it did happen, I'd be all over it like chocolate on a snickers bar

TCB in TN
March 25, 2007, 05:09 PM
Some people would say that the difference between Mexican police and the Chicago PD is one of the most tortured subtlety...

I would think this to be a huge diss to the Mexicans I have met. :neener:

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 05:57 PM
I would think this to be a huge diss to the Mexicans I have met.
No doubt, if I had been referring to anybody but Mexican COPS.

Of course if you're hanging out with Mexican cops, I have to ask what you're bringing in: grass, coke, heroin...? :what:

TCB in TN
March 25, 2007, 06:15 PM
Good point, and had I ever traveled to Mexico I might have to be carefull about my answer. In all reality MOST of the "Mexican" folks I have met have immigrated legally, or a seasonal workers. But at this point I would trust most of them before I would the CPD. :evil:

On the other hand, most of the horror stories I have heard about Mexican police have been with Americans (out of towners), where as the CPD seems to be more abusive of the natives. So it might just depend on what category you fall in, as to which would be your preference.

Deanimator
March 25, 2007, 06:25 PM
But at this point I would trust most of them before I would the CPD.
I would have trusted Taha Yasin Ramadan before I trusted Superintendant Phil Cline! :eek:

TBeck
March 25, 2007, 06:32 PM
On the issue of good cop/bad cop: If you mix clean water and dirty water, you get more dirty water.

My father was shaken down on the way to his wedding by a Chicago cop forty years ago. Nice to hear that some traditions are still being followed.

Nanook
March 25, 2007, 07:13 PM
Speaking of police superintendants, if you think Cline is an idiot, how about his predecessor? Terry something or other, I forget his last name.

That clown couldn't tell the difference between a black powder .50 rifle, and a .50 BMG. He wanted to ban all .50s, it didn't matter what kind of .50 it was.

I can't understand why people just keep on voting the mayor in time after time. Everyone knows he's dirty, everyone. There's not even any debate on the subject. He thinks planting a few trees and flowers will make it all better. The man needs to be charged and removed from office.

We need to stop this dynasty with this mayor. I'd hate to see more of his relatives getting their turn at raping the state and the constitution. It's like a family business, okay, now it's your turn in the barrel. Enough already.

F4GIB
March 25, 2007, 08:16 PM
***

FeebMaster
March 25, 2007, 09:00 PM
Where's the LEO defense team? Too embarrassed to come out?

I can't see why they would be. They'll defend outright murder. This seems like small potatoes in comparison.

Maybe they only come out to defend the big stuff.

pacodelahoya
March 25, 2007, 09:06 PM
Gentlemen, while I dislike the apologists as much as any of you, outright baiting is not High Road at all and it makes all the rest of us look bad.

F4GIB
March 25, 2007, 09:22 PM
Gentlemen, while I dislike the apologists as much as any of you, outright baiting is not High Road at all and it makes all the rest of us look bad.

Well, one of them (J**f W***e) THREATENED to ban me from this Board because HE didn't understand the logic of one of my posts and he took offense. I'm supposed to take it from him (and all the rest of those whiners) and not say a thing when they can't take their share of the heat for the Great Police Cover Up that goes on every day with every one of them participating?

Let me repeat the TRUTH of the matter: There would be no bad cops if the "good" cops didn't cover for them day after day, year after year.

The truth is NOT inconsistent with "the high road." Neither is vigorous, aggressive debate no matter how unpleasant it may be to hear the truth.

thexrayboy
March 25, 2007, 09:49 PM
I have to agree with F4GIB on this issue. Having a mod who is LEO on a
forum devoted to the Second Amendment is a bit strange. This is like a servant having two masters. On this forum he is expected to support the
clear and concise wording of the Second Amendment that makes virtually every law on the books throughout America a violation of our rights. And when he suits up and goes to work he arrests people for violating the same laws that we all discuss and bemoan here as being patent violations of the Bill of Rights. The two roles are incompatible.

If any LEO on this site wish to take offense at that position......too bad. Get another job. Just because a socialist legislature passes a law and an activist judiciary refuses to recognize that the law is a violation of our rights and the constitution is not
an excuse to hide behind the saying " i am just doing my job". The right to "keep and bear arms" is, as has been discussed here a human right. Not a right granted by the Bill of Rights. A right that exists no matter what laws are passed. Anyone who enforces laws that contradict this fact is part of the probem, not part of the solution. To go to work and arrest people for possession of a firearm simply because they don't have the proper badge or piece of government paper saying they can have that gun and then sign on
to this forum and talk about protecting our right to "Keep and Bear" is hypocrisy. Plain and simple. The truth is ugly at times but it is still the truth.

LEO get bashed for misbehavior for a reason. We as citizens granted them authority, when they abuse that authority
they have no excuse as a community to cry when we get mad at them.

Nanook
March 25, 2007, 10:07 PM
" i am just doing my job"

Yeah, that and "I was just following orders". Those didn't work out too well at Nuremberg as I recall from history.

There is no doubt in my mind that most of the rank and file in Chicago would cheerfully follow orders and confiscate guns from otherwise law abiding citizens. And most of those guns would never see the police station.

This may not be the case elsewhere in Illinois, and we may have a chance here to find this out if certain onerous "laws" pass.

Charshooter
March 25, 2007, 10:08 PM
I don’t feel safe in Chicago because of the gangs and regular criminals. I used to call the police.

Wasn’t Chicago always a city with a criminal reputation, Al Capone and all? The political machine that elected Kennedy, Joe’s old mobster friends. Sam Giancana and other mobsters? I know NYC is no better, they both stink.

pacodelahoya
March 25, 2007, 10:14 PM
Guys, I hear ya, look at any other of my posts when it comes to police misconduct. I said it before, I'll say it again, I personally don't trust any police at first sight. I agree that any one that volunteers to be a cop has no right to whine about the job or anything the job entails. Also I agree that they are ALL guilty of enforcing unconstitutional laws.

However,Where's the LEO defense team? Too embarrassed to come out? is just plain baiting, trolling, whatever you want to call it, it's off topic and not high road at all.

sctman800
March 25, 2007, 10:24 PM
I can't understand why people just keep on voting the mayor in time after time.


I cant understand either, but he just got re-elected with over 70% of the vote. Jim.

Beren
March 25, 2007, 11:58 PM
Let's try to keep the "truth" discussed in this thread somewhat related to the article. I know it's difficult not to let slip into the deep waters of hyperbole and staff baiting, but let's make an effort.

NukemJim
March 26, 2007, 09:15 AM
I'll try posting this at the begining because it did not seem to get read at the end.

PS I say again arrest, try, convict and sentance the bad cops, but badmouthing a large group of people because of the actions of a few idiots is, IMHO, not The High Road

How many KNOW ABOUT criminal violence and corruption by fellow police and do NOTHING?

I do not know. If you know would you please enlighten me and provide your source it would be appreciated.

What percentage of THEM do you think there are?


I do not know. If you know would you please enlighten me and provide your source it would be appreciated.

You know guys some gunowners do bad things too, should we badmouth and blame all gunowners for the crimes of a few? If we did that then someone could write something like this

ALL gunowners KNOW about the bad ones. ALL gunowners "see nothing, hear nothing, and say nothing." They are ALL willing accomplices to every bit of brutality, theft, sexual abuse, etc that goes on. ... Even worse they are each perpetrators in the "gunsmoke wall of silence" cover up that goes on constantly in every shooting club or shooting range

Hmm looks a little different now doesn't it. (No, I am not anywhere near as good with words as NightCrawler :rolleyes: )

Jim, the point I was trying(not very well I see) to make is that, if you work in an organization with more than 1 employee, then everyone knows everyone elses personal, and professional business.

Sorry but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Where I work we have over 6,000 employees, no way do I even know all of them by face let alone what they do or how well they do it. CPD has over 13,000 officers.

As far as all the officers "knowing" about the bad ones, yes I am pretty darn sure there are other cops who know about some of these rouge cops, but out of 13,00 officers not all of the officers. It's sort of like Mayor Daley, yes we all know he is crooked. But I do not see a line of THR members forming at the USA office to testify against Daley even though many (including myself) KNOW that he is crooked but we could not testify about it ( If you can testify in a court of law about Daley being crooked himself I'll pay your cabfare down to USA's office:D )

I am NOT trying to condone the action of rouge cops or those who tried to cover for them. Nail them and nail them HARD. But to state 13,000 LEOS are all bad because of the actions of less than a dozen does not seem reasonable or very High Road.

As for those who want to intervene as a citizen with CCW in those cases could you please tell me some of the professional trainers who suggest such a course of action? I am not aware of any and would be interested in knowing of any who do recomend such a response.

NukemJim

Kevlar/Nomex/Shields ON/

PS I say again arrest, try, convict and sentance the bad cops, but badmouthing a large group of people because of the actions of a few idiots is, IMHO, not The High Road

El Tejon
March 26, 2007, 09:22 AM
Nukem, fine we get a cab ride down to Dearborn Street, but how do we get past Daley's guys in the lobby of the USA's office?:D

Master Blaster
March 26, 2007, 09:39 AM
Just so you folks in Chicago dont feel singled out here is a winner from NJ.

Police: Off-Duty Officer Crashes Into N.J. Home, Suspected Of DUI
Driver Treated For Minor Injuries; No On Reported Hurt Inside

POSTED: 4:40 pm EDT March 25, 2007
UPDATED: 7:08 pm EDT March 25, 2007

Email This Story | Print This Story
Sign Up for Breaking News Alerts


GIBBSTOWN, N.J. -- An off-duty police officer is suspected of driving under the influence when his Jeep crashed into a South Jersey home early Sunday, police said.

The crash was reported at 12:45 a.m. on East Broad Street in Greenwich Township, police said.

Preliminary investigation showed that the 2000 Jeep Wrangler was traveling west when it left the roadway and struck a street sign, a parked vehicle and then the side of a house on the 100 block of East Broad.


Kevin Villanova, 34, a Greenwich Township Police Department employee since 1996 and township resident, owned and was driving the vehicle, police said.

Villanova was taken to Underwood Memorial Hospital for treatment and was later released. Police said they suspect the crash was alcohol-related, and blood samples were taken at the hospital for further analysis.

No one inside the home was reported injured.

An investigation into the crash as well as an internal review was under way, and charges are pending, police said.

Deanimator
March 26, 2007, 10:11 AM
Wasn’t Chicago always a city with a criminal reputation, Al Capone and all? The political machine that elected Kennedy, Joe’s old mobster friends. Sam Giancana and other mobsters? I know NYC is no better, they both stink.

1. Yes, Chicago has been profoundly corrupt since day one. I'd like "Mad TV" or somebody to do a skit about the Indians screwing each other over and stealing in Chicago BEFORE the White man came. Maybe then they can do a post-apocalypse skit where giant, mutant cockroaches in Chicago are stealing, taking bribes, and beating people up.

2. In fact, from what I read, NYC IS better, at least as far as outright CRIME by police. The problem with the NYPD is not so much them stealing and committing assaults unrelated to law enforcement, as it is with them feeling as though they are in Vietnam in a "free fire zone". That's VERY different from police on and off duty acting as COMMON CRIMINALS. THAT is the problem in Chicago.

Deanimator
March 26, 2007, 10:26 AM
You know guys some gunowners do bad things too, should we badmouth and blame all gunowners for the crimes of a few? If we did that then someone could write something like this

But isn't that PRECISELY the stock and trade of Daley and the Chicago PD???

Of course let me point out that back in '96, the Chicago Police Union went on National Public Radio to claim before an audience of MILLIONS that police who beat their wives should be EXEMPT from laws which forbid those CONVICTED of domestic violence from owning or possessing firearms. Of course at the same time, they don't think that the VICTIMS of domestic abuse should even be able to HAVE a handgun IN THEIR HOMES with which to defend themselves from their wife beating policeman husbands.

And that having been said, I don't recall ever having to swear any oath to uphold the law or protect the public (collectively, NOT as individuals) at ANY time when I purchased a gun.

Police who commit crimes, and ESPECIALLY police who COVER FOR police who commit crimes (and there sure are plenty of THOSE in these recent stories, AREN'T there?) have violated their trust. Can you explain how I could trust ANY Chicago policeman that I don't PERSONALLY know without being the most pathetic of fools?

pacodelahoya
March 26, 2007, 10:43 AM
Jim, thanks for making my point.
As far as all the officers "knowing" about the bad ones, yes I am pretty darn sure there are other cops who know about some of these rouge cops, but out of 13,00 officers not all of the officers.

I'm sure that with 13,000 officers, every one of the corrupt cops are known to at least some of the good ones. Does everyone of the 13,00 know about every corrupt cop? no of course not. But is every corrupt cop known by a non corrupt cop? I can't prove it but I have a strong feeling the answer would be YES.

If the "good cop" knows about the bad and does nothing, then they by default are bad.

F4GIB
March 26, 2007, 11:39 AM
pacodelahoya posted:
But is every corrupt cop known by a non corrupt cop? I can't prove it but I have a strong feeling the answer would be YES.

If the "good cop" knows about the bad and does nothing, then they by default are bad.

Exactly!

Deanimator
March 28, 2007, 09:55 AM
The Chicago PD is totally on fire, out of control! Threatening reporters, ticketing legally parked news vans, blocking private driveways, protecting the "privacy" of violent misogynists!

Has anybody else noticed that impotent Police Superintendent Phil Cline looks like Captain Kangaroo? He'd better call in Mr. Greenjeans to back him up! :what:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070327police-reform,1,6445673.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Police officials look to reform disciplinary process
Advertisement


By David Heinzmann
Tribune staff reporter

March 27, 2007, 10:16 PM CDT

Chicago Police Supt. Philip Cline said Tuesday he mishandled allegations against six officers involved in a videotaped bar beating as he vowed to take cops accused of misconduct off the street quickly when prosecutors indicate they might bring criminal charges.

The six officers allegedly involved in the Dec. 15 melee at the Jefferson Tap and Grille have remained on active duty for three months despite evidence of misconduct captured on video that was viewed by police officials five days after the incident, Cline said Tuesday night.

"In hindsight this incident should have been handled differently, and these officers should have been stripped of their powers sooner," Cline said. "The incident has made me realize we need to tighten up our process to ensure that officers that participate in this type of behavior do not remain on the street."

From now on, when the Police Department refers accusations against officers to the Cook County state's attorney's office, police officials will meet with prosecutors within two days to follow up, Cline said. If prosecutors say they are pursuing a criminal case against the officers, Cline said those officers will be stripped of their police powers immediately.

One alleged victim of the Jefferson Tap beating required reconstructive surgery on his face and another suffered four broken ribs, a lawyer for the men has said. During the incident, patrons at the downtown bar called 911. When patrol officers responded, the off-duty officers involved allegedly spoke to them and the patrol officers left without intervening, sources have said.

Cline's announcement came at the end of a topsy-turvy day for the department, which began with uniformed officers interfering with the news media at a court hearing for Anthony G. Abbate, the officer accused in another videotaped bar beating—the Feb. 19 attack on a female bartender.

In that case, Abbate is accused of beating bartender Karolina Obrycka, who suffered head, arm and rib injuries, because she refused to serve him another drink at Jesse's Short Stop Inn on the Northwest Side.

The hearing was held at a branch courtroom at the Grand Central Area police headquarters, and several on-duty officers used their squad cars to block media access to the facility, Cline said. Officers also issued parking tickets to media vehicles parked in the headquarters lot.

Cline said he had already decided to demote the watch commander—a captain—who he said told the officers to harass reporters and camera crews covering the Abbate hearing.

The captain "misused the police resources out there. It was a terrible lack of judgment and leadership," Cline said.

At the end of a news conference Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Monique Bond told reporters to bring the parking tickets to her and she would make sure they were nullified.

Abbate was first charged with misdemeanor battery by the Police Department. Those charges were dismissed at Tuesday's hearing but the state's attorney's office had upgraded the charges to felony aggravated battery.

In recent days, the department has been rocked by one embarrassing revelation after another.

Cable news networks have repeatedly aired the videotaped beating of bartender Obrycka's beating. The department also is bracing for developments in a state's attorney's investigation of a 2005 fatal police shooting in which new evidence emerged last week that challenges the department's version of what happened.

"The past two weeks have been disheartening and embarrassing for me, personally and professionally," Cline said.

The scandals are demoralizing for good officers, as well. "They too are sickened by the actions of their fellow officers, who have blemished the reputation of this department," Cline said.

dheinzmann@tribune.com
Copyright © 2007, Chicago Tribune

F4GIB
March 28, 2007, 07:28 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/03/27/tourist.beating.ap/index.html

It's not just Chicago, it's not just "tactical" squad members, it's even a chief!

Art Eatman
March 28, 2007, 09:59 PM
Too much Low Road for me...

Art

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