[Tearlachblair]

So I was reading some info about Doc Holliday, and it said that -- in addition to his pistols -- he also packed a 10-gauge "Streetsweeper" shotgun that he had cut down, usually under his duster.

So it popped into my head that, just for a fungun, I might try recreating the shotgun of the legendary Doc Holliday.

FOR STARTERS:

Obviously, I'm staying legal. I'm keeping the barrel around 18.5 inches. Now I'd personally like to find a double barrel with hammers. What are the cheapest yet reliable DBs with hammers on'em?

THE STOCK: How short can you cut down a stock before it gets completely unmanageable with 20 gauge loads? I found three pics of some shorty shotguns on the web. Here they are:

http://www.rirwin.com/images/doublebarrelsawoff.JPG

http://www.rirwin.com/images/shotgun7.jpg

http://www.rirwin.com/images/shotgungun4.jpg

Input welcome!!

[zinj]

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR220_side-by-side_specs.asp

This is probably your best bet for an external-hammer double that is safe to fire with modern loads. Already in coach gun format too (though you could hack off the stock if you wanted a hog's leg).

[dfariswheel]

In some book is a photo of Doc's double.

The butt is cut off like the above pictures, but it was more rounded off.
There is a rectangular ring attached to the top of the barrels, just behind the balance point.
A wide leather strap would be attached to the ring and the gun would be slung over the shoulder, barrel down.
When Doc would open his coat, the shotgun would swivel itself level.

Doc apparently got the idea from a gun supposedly carried by a man known as the "Mormon Avenger", a killer that worked for the Mormons.

[Sistema1927]

The first thing that came to mind was the Remington Spartan SPR220 with external hammers (same gun as Baikal Bounty Hunter with the Remington brand) that I shoot for CAS. It is perfect just like it is, I wouldn't shorten either the barrels or the stock.

[armoredman]

Doc's gun was a 10ga Belgian "Meteor", IIRC.

[Dave McCracken]

A couple things....

Here in the US a minimum OA length of 27" and a barrel length more than 18" is mandated without special permits and licenses.

I fired an Ithaca "AutoBurglar" once. A 20 gauge loaded with field loads, it was nigh uncontrollable for the second barrel. I missed with the first one.

These are endemically hard to shoot well. For defense, there's much better choices.

For fun, I have a hunch the fun will wear off PDQ.

[Gordon]

The bottom ones a 10 ga. They are of a real world useable size. I actually HIT and kill things with them. I did NOT want to shorten the 10gas pull any less than the 13.5" it is now. I shoot as small as a 12" pull on some other tactical guns, but not the 10ga, thank you!

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27913&d=1124679208

http://thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=25102&d=1117432320

[Old Fuff]

I hate to bust anybody's bubble, but the fact is there isn't any real evidence that Doc Holliday carried around a shotgun. :what:

So what about the O.K. Corral - the ultimate Hollywood gunfight?

Well according to Virgil Earp, who testified at a preliminary hearing when the Earps and Holliday were charged with murder, He - Virgil borrowed a full-sized but short-barreled shotgun from the Wells-Fargo Office when things began to look sticky. He then ask "Doc" to carry it under his long overcoat because the Earps were wearing shorter ones. Virgil in turn took a cane that Holliday had, and with the hardware rearranged they proceeded down the street to see what the cowboys were up to. So Holliday's use of a shotgun that day was coincidental. Of course all kinds of myth-writers have come up with Doc’s supposed shotgun… Obviously unaware that original court records of the time said otherwise.

On other occasions it’s unlikely he ever carried such a weapon. It wasn’t unusual for a gambler to get run out of town simply because he got caught carrying a revolver, let alone a shotgun. The West may have been wild, but not that wild... :neener:

But don’t let this bit of history spoil your fun. I do suggest however that you make up whaterver using a muzzle loading, caplock double-barreled shotgun. That way you won’t get in trouble with the BATF&E or some local lawmen...

[Tearlachblair]

Here in the US a minimum OA length of 27" and a barrel length more than 18" is mandated without special permits and licenses.

Isn't it 26" and not 27"? I may be wrong so I will have to look it up once again. But yes, as I mentioned in my first post, I intend on keeping everything legal. Though the idea of using a BP shotgun and cutting it down short does have a certain appeal. What's the average price for a BP shotgun nowadays?

For fun, I have a hunch the fun will wear off PDQ.

I'll let ya know ;)

[Fred Fuller]

Dig around on the Web a bit for info on one Owen Porter Rockwell, aka 'The Destroying Angel'. It was Rockwell who supposedly first favored hanging a cut-down SXS shotgun under his coat by a strap connected to a ring set at the balance point of the sawed-off.

lpl/nc

[Lucky]

I haven't tried, but on another forum a few guys were talking about firing pump shotguns with pistol grips 1-handed, even had a video. The consensus was that it is a painful affair, one guy said he couldn't use his hand for a week. He didn't drop the gun or anything, though.

Imagine a 10-gauge with a poor grip and less weight...:what:

[armoredman]

OK, Fuff, disremember where I saw the stuff I did on the Holliday shotgun, but over 150 years, things can get a bit confused.

[357wheelgunner]

PG only shotguns are worthless.

I'm looking at one of the Remington coach guns for my wife, I'm afraid she won't do so well with a pump so I'm going for the side by side.

I doubt many successful gunfighters, now or a hundred years ago, used a pistolgrip only shotgun if they didn't absolutely have to.

I thought that he had a full stocked shotgun with shorter barrels? That would actually make sense...

[Old Fuff]

armoredman:

OK, Fuff, disremember where I saw the stuff I did on the Holliday shotgun, but over 150 years, things can get a bit confused.

That’s an understatement to say the least... :D

What most folks don't understand is that at the time (1881) both Tombstone and Cochise County had a fully functioning court system. Following the fight within hours a Coroner's Inquest was held (the record of that proceeding is known as Document 48). Then William McLaury (a brother of the recently deceased Frank and Tom) and Ike Clanton brought murder charges against the Earp brother and Doc Holliday. A prelimary hearing was held to see if the defendants should be bound over for trial, but they were exonerated. That hearing lasted about a month, and was held during November 1881 (the fight was on October 26th, 1881). The record of that lengthy hearing is known as Document 94.

Both of these records were transcribed from hand written to typewritten documents during the 1930’s and published in a book during the 1980’s to insure their survival. Some of the remaining original copies are still in the Cochise County Courthouse.

These documents, compiled at the actual time of the fight, provide insights that were later lost to fiction writers and movies that ignored historical facts. Be that as it may, it is quite possible to go back to what was recorded at the time, and forget about the questionable material that came about much later.

[carpettbaggerr]

Actually, Doc didn't like shotguns and thought he missed, when in fact, he killed Tom Mclaury.

Reading the situation and believing it was Tom who had wounded Morg, Wyatt fired a shot, hitting Billy's horse and making it break away. As McLaury reached out toward the animal, Doc pumped twelve buckshot under the right armpit of the cowboy. McLaury spun around and bound away toward the corner of Third Street, where he crumpled down in a heap. Thinking he had missed a sure shot, Holliday threw the scattergun down in disgust, yanked his nickel-plated pistol and fired two quick rounds at Billy Clanton who was leaning against the corner of the small building just west of Fly's.

http://home.earthlink.net/~knuthco1/Itemsofinterest4/blazeawaysource.htm

You can read an article by Wyatt Earp published in the Weekly Examiner on August 6, 1896 here (http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00A5Oq)

And Gordon, what is the shotgun on top in your picture? The hammerless one.

[Lucky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHCvMwzMemY

This is my Maverick 88, 18" barrel, pistol grip, first gun I bought when I was 18, Im shooting 3" slugs.....my hand hurt for a week..

[karlsgunbunker]

The chinese made coach guns are around $200 for .410, 20ga, or 12ga.
I believe they have 20" barrels.

I know SOG has them and probably lots of other places.

probably a good gun for such a project.

[Tearlachblair]

What's SOG?

[goon]

Southern Ohio Gun

[Seancass]

if you can live without the hammers, these are by far your best bet, based on price and a decent reputation.

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/coach.tpl

also, a friend had a pump 12 gauge pistol grip. With bird shot loads, it was not painful at all. Well, as long as you kept it far enough away from your face.

[armoredman]

I'd like one of those nickled 20ga Stoeger Coach Guns for my wife...home gun, as it were.:cool:

[MrAcheson]

I haven't tried, but on another forum a few guys were talking about firing pump shotguns with pistol grips 1-handed, even had a video. The consensus was that it is a painful affair, one guy said he couldn't use his hand for a week. He didn't drop the gun or anything, though.I've never fired a PG shotgun so I can't tell what the gun feels like. I have seen a guy knock one of his front teeth out with one at my shooting range.

[Antihero]

I haven't tried, but on another forum a few guys were talking about firing pump shotguns with pistol grips 1-handed, even had a video. The consensus was that it is a painful affair, one guy said he couldn't use his hand for a week. He didn't drop the gun or anything, though.


Its not quite that bad. I have a Maverick 88 that i bought a cheap plastic pistol grip for. It wasnt exactly pleasant with buckshot but i retained feeling in my hand.

Frankly though the pistol grip only shotgun isnt nearly as cool as Hollywood lets on.

[Tim L]

These documents, compiled at the actual time of the fight, provide insights that were later lost to fiction writers and movies that ignored historical facts. Be that as it may, it is quite possible to go back to what was recorded at the time, and forget about the questionable material that came about much later.

Come of Fuff, don't you know by now that we can't have "facts" screwing up perfectly good "Artistic License"? :neener: :neener: If we let people believe the actual facts on this how are we to get people to believe that the sky is green, grass is blue, and the sun is purple? :evil:

Tim

[hrgrisso]

O.P. Rockwell did carry many firearms during his infamous career. The shotgun was his preferred weapon in many cases, but I've never heard of a chopped down version...

However, one bit of info oft. overlooked, he was a deputy or other sworn LEO throughout his career. I've been intrigued by him since he was in more gun fights and shootouts than any other combination of LEO's of his time. Of course his reputation was scarred due to his faith but who's to say otherwise.

[Old Fuff]

Tim L:

I get your point... But the "real" story is actually better the the "reel" one.

I mean, what movie whould have Virgil Earp sitting in on a hot pocker game with Ike Clanton the night before the big gunfight... ?? :what: :D

[Lucky]

Fuff, what was the book's name? I'd really like it.

[Dr.Rob]

I always thought the shotgun in question was an 1878 Colt 10 ga. with short barrels, and as others have stated borrowed for the occasion.

[Old Fuff]

Lucky:

The title of the book is:

The O.K. Corral Inquest, Edited by Alford E. Turner.

I believe it may be out of print, but several new and used copies are available from www.amazon.com

Anyone who is interested would be well advised to get a copy while they are available.

Understand that this book isn’t always easy to read. It was compiled for historians and researchers. It contains all of the verbatim testimony taken at two court hearings. The first was an inquest over the bodies of the deceased Billy Clanton and McLaury brothers, Tom and Frank. Some 10 witnesses testified.

The second was a Preliminary Hearing, held in Tombstone’s Justice Court, to determine if Virgil Earp, his brothers Wyatt and Morgan, and John H. (Doc) Holliday should be bound over for trial on charges of murder. At that hearing 30 witnesses testified, including some who were at the previous inquest.

Sometimes the court recorder couldn’t keep up, and so would write down the answers, but not the questions. Therefore the reader must read the answer, and then try to deduce what the question was.

The editor, Alford E. Turner, was careful not to “adjust” the witnesses’ words, beyond correcting some spelling and grammatical errors. However the text is extensively (and knowledgeably) footnoted – which the reader can accept or reject according to they’re own opinion.

What you get is raw history, not the later legend. The words are those that were recorded at the time, and not clouded by the passage of time. ;)

[allanschisel]

At 25 yards or less, a pg shotgun with an 18.5" barrel is great for it's intended purpose. I'm an average sized person and have no problem shooting one with 00 buck. I would stay away from 3" shells though. If you hold it correctly, no problem. I saw a buddy put in a 3" shell, hold the shotgun at his hip, and shoot with wrist locked. I was yelling at him to not shoot, but thinking he could handle it, he shot once and he thought he broke his wrist. I picked it up and took a shot. Not pleasant, but no damage. Like I said, stick to 2 3/4" shells and hold it correctly. Hold the shotgun up to see the sights and slightly to the side of your head, hang on to the pg, and let the barrel swing up to absorb most of the recoil. I have a Pachmyer pg on my 12ga. It's at a better angle than a Mossberg pg and it flexes some. PG shotguns work fine for home defense. A 20ga would be great too. I have a Mossberg 20ga that can be shot with one hand like handgun. I can't hold it up for long, but it's a fun thing to do every once in a while.
Allan Schisel

[Lucky]

The title of the book is:

The O.K. Corral Inquest, Edited by Alford E. Turner.

Thanks!