winchester white box jhp(9mm) for defense?


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cajun47
March 25, 2007, 10:40 PM
are the expensive hollow point or powerball +p 9mm ammo really that much better? cause i have eight ruger 9mm mags(15 rounds) to fill up.

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Sistema1927
March 25, 2007, 10:51 PM
The 147 WWB and the 147 SXT both show up in the specifications as being 990 fps from a 4 barrel. The SXT are in nickel cases, the WWB in brass. The bullets have a similar profile, but the SXT are supposedly a "supreme" expansion design. Everything that I read says that both bullets have similar performance when it comes to penetration and expansion.

50 rounds of the WWB cost much less than 20 rounds of the SXT. Guess what gets shot out of my Kahr PM9?

the naked prophet
March 25, 2007, 10:53 PM
Shoot one in the dark, then ask the same question. You probably won't need to ask the question again, though.

Also, the "high quality" high price JHP ammo is better designed. The WWB or Remington UMC ammo may or may not expand, and may or may not penetrate enough. In my experience, the WWB does not expand, and the UMC is a toss up. The only exception is the UMC .40 180 grain JHP. They work well, but with a huge ball of flame.

In addition to that, the high quality stuff will have better QC, and should be sealed against moisture.

C-grunt
March 25, 2007, 11:34 PM
The premium stuff is better. If you cant afford it, the WWB JHP is better than ball.

alucard0822
March 25, 2007, 11:52 PM
i have eight ruger 9mm mags(15 rounds) to fill up.

If you are looking to dump 120 in a BG's direction it doesn't matter what you load em with:evil:

Ball ammo is designed to keep it's shape and penetrate as deep as possible after it hits someone. It introduces both an entry and exit wound to speed bleedout, and will feed more reliably than almost anything else. It lacks energy transfer, knock down power and creates a wound diameter of .355 straight through, but is cheap to shoot.

HP defense ammo is designed to dump all of it's energy into the target, and increase the wound channel diameter by 50% or so over the bore diameter increasing stopping power. It stays in the target and increases the time to bleed out. It also decreases penetration and may not feed as well as FMJ, and the premium price. Cheap HP's are similar, but something has to be given up in exchange for the price difference, could be QC, penetration, expansion or something cosmetic, like no nickel plated cases

Ultimately practice, training and shot placement are more important than what type of bullet flies out of the pipe

CajunBass
March 26, 2007, 12:23 AM
I use the WWB 115 JHP in my 9mm's when I carry a 9.

I figure the bad guy don't know what it is. :D

fogdor
March 26, 2007, 12:36 AM
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com

Run by one of this forum's mods, Stephen A. Camp has test fired Winchester White Box JHP and compares it with other, more modern designs. A wealth of good info for the 9mm owner.

GJRugby
March 26, 2007, 01:03 AM
The 147 SXTs I use are dead-on accurate! They also cost close to $1.00 per round, so you better enjoy them! My local gun store only had two boxes last time I went in there, so I had to buy them both (only 20 rounds per box). I also like the "kick" associated with this round, more so than the Remington FMJ 115GR, which for me, are all over the place in terms of accuracy.

But still, like was said before, the bad guy doesn't know. The first two in my mag are the 147 SXT then the rest are cheap 147 gr flatties.

Cheers,
George

ARTiger
March 26, 2007, 02:10 AM
Rather than trying to scrimp on loading 8 mags with bargain defensive ammo, one 15 rounder with the best stuff I can afford would be the route I would travel. You can fing Win Ranger 127 grain SXT +P+ LE Only ammo on the net for $25-$30 a box for 50. That'll load 3 of your mags with what many feel is the best defensive 9mm round available.

Donut
March 26, 2007, 03:49 AM
I keep two mags loaded with Federal HST of the 124 gr +P variety. If I need more than 20 rounds (thanks CA), well then I'm in serious trouble.

You can get the HST for $20 per 50, so if you really feel the need to load up all 8 mags with the good stuff, You're only looking at $60, with two-mags worth left over in the box.

Personally, I think you'd be fine with a couple mags with the "good stuff" and the rest with whatever makes a hole accurately.

the naked prophet
March 26, 2007, 02:30 PM
The problem with more expensive ammo is that you have to put 100-200 through the gun to be sure they're reliable in that gun. That can be expensive.

My favorite load is the 147 grain Gold Dot loaded by DoubleTap to over 1100 fps. It's also much cheaper than the Winchester SXT. www.doubletapammo.com

loplop
March 26, 2007, 03:37 PM
I use it. Both the 147gr. and 115 gr., depending upon firearm.

I don't believe in magic bullets. Only ones that go where I aim them. Since I shoot a lot with the WWB JHP, I'm confident that 1) my gun will work with it and 2) I will put it right where I want to.

I figure that's pretty important. It looks very much like the STHP to me, and I'm comfortable with that performance for my civilian lifestyle.

As far as night vision and flash suppressed powders... I have not "seen" the need for them, in handguns. However I posted a thread on this recently and there's some interesting info developing. It looks to me like handgun (or long gun) choice makes the big difference... In 9mm semiautos I'm not worried about flash.

Here's that thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=262725) if someone is interested in participating.

GunNut
March 26, 2007, 05:02 PM
Buy the best ammo that you can afford. If the cheaper WWB JHP's are all that you can afford then go for it.

I prefer to purchase the highest quality self defense ammo possible, especially in 9mm's where I believe that I need them.

Steve

tango3065
March 26, 2007, 10:58 PM
147 gr WWB personal protection for practice and carry.

innerpiece
March 26, 2007, 11:40 PM
Deleted due to name-calling.

ARTiger
March 27, 2007, 02:17 AM
:rolleyes: Only one thing much worse than dumb questions . . . not asking them.

Cajun: I would reiterate what I said previously and encourage loading a few mags with the best stuff your wallet will allow and not worry about having 8 mags of butt stompin' defense loads lying around.

The factual info on Winchester USA 147gr. JHP is that it has a muzzle velocity of 990 feet per second and muzzle energy of 320 foot/pounds. The 115 grain load has a muzzle velocity of 1225 FPS and Muzzle energy of 383 ft/lbs. Those are more than acceptable numbers for 9mm personal defense ammunition of similar bullet weights.

What's a question mark however is just how well the bullet they use in these loads will perform. Will it consistently expand well and also penetrate to terminal depths? Probably, but there is better bullet technology available (SXT, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, etc.)

For that extremely rare time which may never even occur that you may need to use the gun to defend your life, the question would then be what's an acceptable cost for ammo then and there?

RON in PA
March 27, 2007, 05:05 AM
Back when ammolab.com existed they tested WWB 147 personal protection ammo in gelatin with denim cover. It did just fine in penetration and expansion.

Donut
March 27, 2007, 05:07 AM
How much does WWB 9mm JHP go for at Wally World?

daysleeprx
March 27, 2007, 05:22 AM
I use WWB JHP in my CZ SP-01 (currently my nightstand gun).

I've practiced enough with it to know it's accurate out of my gun, and has never given me a failure.

As for performance in the "real world"...I doubt anyone would want you to try it on them to find out how effective it is. :D

hostilecrab
March 27, 2007, 01:54 PM
Would it be better to use 115 grain JHP rather than 147 grain ?

With HP don't you want to achieve the most penetration you can get, because the projectile will lose a tremendous amount of energy when it hits the target due to expansion.

More energy in the 115 rather than the 147.

Any thoughts ?

-HCrab

strat81
March 27, 2007, 03:07 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238601

I asked this a few months ago. FWIW, I've settled on Golden Sabers for the nightstand mags and Hornady TAP FPD for my carry mags. Both are 124gr, non +P. Next time I cycle ammo through the mags, I might pick up some Double Tap. Great price, good rep.

loplop
March 27, 2007, 04:52 PM
Personally, I think "premium ammo" gives folks a false sense of security. No ammo's going to save you, buckaroo, your shot placement will.

Or they use the "my life is worth it" line. Well, of COURSE your life is worth it, so travel with an armored division at all times!

If the WWB ammo has been shown to not reliably expand, and do it's job, then I'd stay away. But all tests show it works well. Maybe not quite the numbers that the "premium ammo" puts up, but that's IMO nullified by the fact you can shoot it all the time if you want due to low cost... and the fact you'll score more precise hits with what you typically shoot.

It's like the guy who shows up at the range with the Wilson Combat .45 but can't hit the broadside of a barn. Is he really better protected than the kid with the shagged out LEO-tradein Glock that can hit 5 tiny circle targets on one page?

Now, if you want to shoot premium ammo as your practice ammo, do it! I personally am comfortable with the WWB.

possum
March 27, 2007, 05:02 PM
wwb jhp's is a good trainning rd, ie if you want to practice in volume shooting a load that is similar to that of a rd that you will be carrying but don't want to pay the rm and a leg that it would cost you to do so! wwb jhp's would do the job better than a fmj, but it definetly isn't on par with the more expensive jhp's out there. i lokk at it like this, how much is your and your loved one's lives worth? a couple boxes of pricey self defense loads, or a few boxes of cheaper ammo that you might be compramising by using?
IMHO:
wwb jhp's better than fmj for sd/hd, but not as good as the premium stuff out there!

tostada
March 27, 2007, 05:31 PM
The reason I would trust 9MM for defense is because modern premium ammo like Ranger +P+ and DPX exists which behaves more like a nicely expanding .357 than a 9MM. I've shot tons of WWB without problems, but I just don't know how confident I'd be with any bulk ammo for any legitimate use.

I certainly don't believe in magic bullets. I would just use expensive ammo because it's definitely better. I would have no problem using cheap ammo as long as it wasn't the bulk stuff. I mean, when the bullets actually sound different from shot to shot, you know there's not a lot of quality control going on.

In the end, there are plenty of people using a 32 and 380 for defense, and I'd rather have a WWB holopoint any day. Keeping around a clip of expensive 9MM doesn't cost much, though.

sara bellum
March 27, 2007, 10:21 PM
Hello cajun47. Please tell me what you think about these articles regarding ammunition, trauma, bullets, and shock effect. They appear to say that shock effect and penetration play significant roles in disabling an attacker, while minimizing the efficacy of larger calibers and hollow point bullets:

"All handgun wounds will combine the components of penetration, permanent cavity, and temporary cavity to a greater or lesser degree. Fragmentation, on the other hand, does not reliably occur in handgun wounds due to the relatively low velocities of handgun bullets...

...Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs..."

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html .

I believe that the above article implies that hollow point and FMJ rounds cannot fragment sufficiently to cause incapacitating trauma in every instance. This would lead me to believe that hollow points offer no more performance than FMJ ball ammo.

What are your thoughts after reading this article? Are there any other articles that support the view that hollow point ammunition performs any differently?

C-grunt
March 27, 2007, 10:36 PM
Sara Bellum, what they are talking about in that article is round fragmentation like you see in .223. A .223 will fragment or shatter and that action causes massive tissue damage.These rounds are traveling at roughly 3000 FPS. Rifles injure not only by the traveling of the bullet, but the energy they create can destroy tissue in of itself. Handguns dont create this energy and therefore rely purely on the hole. In a pistol, a hollow point is generally considered better because it will expand and create a larger hole. A bigger hole destroys more tissue.

HGUNHNTR
March 28, 2007, 04:25 AM
Yes, the good stuff is better, your hide is worth a few extra cents a round isn't it?;)

loplop
March 28, 2007, 09:12 AM
Frangible != hollowpoint.

Frangible (page here (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/frangible.htm)): Frangible, or “soft,” rounds are designed to break apart when they hit walls or other hard surfaces to prevent ricochets during close-quarters combat.

Hollow point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollow_point):
A hollow point is a bullet that has a pit, or hollowed out shape, in its tip, generally intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target

GeorgiaGlocker
March 28, 2007, 05:57 PM
No way. I use Speer Gold Dots either 124 gr or 147 gr GDHP for self defense.

BushyGuy
July 8, 2009, 12:48 AM
i use 115gr GDHP for summer they have a muzzle of 1200 fps and 368 FPE i use the 124gr Hornady Tap in the winter for deeper penetration . the 115 gr Gold Dots should be very effective around 12 to 14 inches of penetration while the Hornady close to 14".

cleetus03
July 8, 2009, 03:15 PM
Here's a random bloggers review of WWB 147gr 9MM JHP;

Winchester Ranger STX 9mm JHP vs Regular Winchester 9mm JHPhttp://www.kevinwebb22.com/?p=969

I’ve done some personal testing with a few different ammunition types and I am here to tell you what type of ammo to use if you use a Glock for self-defense.

I’ve tested many types of ammo including Hornady, Corbon, Winchester, Speer, Wolf, Blazer… and more.

I’ve settled on using the Winchester Ranger STX JHP over anything else for a few different reasons. Below is a quick-list of observations.

1. All ammo fed perfectly in my Glock, which is not surprising. The Glock will eat anything except for improperly made reloads and lead jacket… or bullets with no casing. The Glock barrel will expand if you use lead ammo.

2. The Winchester silvertips probably come in #2, but I was impressed by the expansion and pointed tips of the Ranger STX, which would help it eat through bone and hard tissue if necessary.

3. The cheap Wal-Mart Winchester JHP ammo actually held up nicely as you will notice in the pictures below. There was no fragmenting and the bullet completely expanded.

http://www.kevinwebb22.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/winchester-ranger-stx-vs-winchester-hollow-point-9mm.jpg
http://www.kevinwebb22.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/winchester-ranger-stx-9mm-hollow-point.jpg
http://www.kevinwebb22.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/winchester-9mm-hollow-point.jpg

Don357
July 10, 2009, 01:24 AM
I personally use WWB defensive JHP in my 9mm's and my .45acp. I figure a well placed double tap of anything will stop or at least deter most "bad guys". If not, a second series surely will. Especially the 230gr JHP .45acp, although I don't imagine the 147gr JHP 9mm would leave him overly frisky either.

Many of those "high end" defensive rounds and LEO rounds were designed with preventing "collateral damage" more so than actual "perp stopping". Though the rapid expansion and energy transfer does a good job of that, it also prevents many through and through shots that may hit innocent bystanders, which seems to be a major legal consideration, especially since even the criminals are suiting and winning when they get shot committing a crime, thanks to the bleeding heart liberal judges like Sotomayor, and others. OOPS! Pardon me, here I go again, and we were talking about ammo. Anyway, you get the picture.

Don

Gun Slinger
July 10, 2009, 02:03 AM
If it's all that you can find (or afford) then go with the WWB in the weight (115 gr. or 147 gr.) of your choice.

It's a lot better than ball since it expands reasonably well and provides acceptable penetration.

I suppose that there is "better" SD ammunition available, but I wouldn't go hide under a bed if I found my "off-duty" pistol (Glock 17) loaded with it either.

sidheshooter
July 10, 2009, 02:34 AM
I don't have a firm opinion on the 9mm WWB, but the same in 230 gr .45 ACP is one of my favorite rounds.

Regarding denegration of "the cheap stuff" I will just add that Mas Ayoob has pointed out in print that all this WWB stuff used to come in boxes marked "Law Enforcement Only". It's a bulk bid thing.

Don't confuse inexpensive with ineffective, IMHO.

dacavasi
July 10, 2009, 02:36 AM
Yet another instance of generally confusing "quality" with "price". If you can't afford to consistently practice with whatever you intend to depend upon as your SD round of choice, then choose something that you can afford. If you can afford over $1 per round, and can practice with that ammo on a regular basis, and it makes you feel more confident, then by all means use it! But be aware that there are many kinds of ammo that are less expensive that you might have the same experience with. There is no universal caveat that dictates that the more money you spend, the better your results!

freakshow10mm
July 10, 2009, 02:55 AM
I've carried the 230gr load in 45 ACP before I handloaded. I wouldn't have any issues with carrying the 115gr 9mm load either. I'm still testing different bullets for my 9mm so when I carry it I just use 115gr ball handloads.

beretta-neo
July 11, 2009, 12:34 PM
I have used the WWB JHP for a while. However, I tried shooting into something at the range. When I recovered the bullet, it did not expand at ALL. I have since lost faith in the round and will give that Critical Defense ammo a shot.

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