Shipping a gun. Should USPS/UPS know its a gun?


PDA






Lightsped
March 26, 2007, 05:15 PM
I may have to send a pistol back to a manufacturer for a repair. Should I tell the USPS/UPS people that it is a gun I am sending or not?

If you enjoyed reading about "Shipping a gun. Should USPS/UPS know its a gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
PPGMD
March 26, 2007, 05:19 PM
Unless you are an FFL yourself the only way to ship a handgun is via Fedex next day air.

RNB65
March 26, 2007, 05:21 PM
This question comes up often and it's confusing. Apparently, you're not required by federal law to notify them if you're shipping to an FFL by common carrier. However, UPS/FEDEX's own regulations require that you notify them and ship handguns by next-day air.

You can always ship by ground or 2nd-day and get insurance for "machine parts." That way, if the box disappears in transit, you can file an insurance claim for the missing machine parts.

It's your choice. Pay the next-day rate or ship it as machine parts.

sansone
March 26, 2007, 05:27 PM
I ship handguns USPS priority w/delivery confirmation. I do not tell anyone there is a gun inside // yes probably a taurus:)

orionengnr
March 26, 2007, 05:30 PM
Please do a search and make sure you have the right answers (read the actual BATFE statutes) before shipping.
This has been covered many times, and some of the "advice" is worth exactly what you pay for it. Some of it may help you end up in Club Fed. :uhoh:

mpmarty
March 26, 2007, 05:31 PM
Why Taurus? I've got two of them but the last two that went back for warranty work were Smith and Springfield pistols.

30 cal slob
March 26, 2007, 05:36 PM
here's an interesting link:

http://www.thegunzone.com/ship-guns.html

RNB65
March 26, 2007, 05:38 PM
Please do a search and make sure you have the right answers (read the actual BATFE statutes) before shipping.

I agree completely. But part of the confusion is that what the BATFE says on their website concerning shipping firearms by common carrier differs from what the law says as defined in US Code Title 18/Sec 922. It's no secret that the BATFE likes to make their own laws independently of the Congress and this is an excellent example.

CDignition
March 26, 2007, 05:50 PM
I have shipped alot of handguns VIA UPS no trouble..I don't know where that info comes from above???... Rifles VIA US Postal service(I shipped an AR10 to Alaska from Florida Overnite for 70 bux, insured for $2000 bucks..).

cbsbyte
March 26, 2007, 05:58 PM
Non FFLs can not send pistols through USPS. If you do it is a Federal crime. You will have to send via UPS or Fedex Overnight.

Professor K
March 26, 2007, 05:59 PM
You could always declare it "sporting goods."

Trebor
March 26, 2007, 06:04 PM
You can always ship by ground or 2nd-day and get insurance for "machine parts." That way, if the box disappears in transit, you can file an insurance claim for the missing machine parts.

Do that and your insurance claim will be denied. As part of the contract you agreed to abide by their rules for shipping. If their rules require next day air, and you mis-identified the contents to get around that rule, you violated the contract with the shipper and they will NOT pay your insurance claim.

Any potential legal issues aside, that's as good a reason as any to just "play it straight" with them.

RNB65
March 26, 2007, 06:31 PM
Do that and your insurance claim will be denied.

If the package has disappeared, how will they know? Where I come from, guns are considered sporting goods.

Soybomb
March 26, 2007, 06:33 PM
I ship handguns USPS priority w/delivery confirmation. I do not tell anyone there is a gun inside
Remember its not legal for non-ffl's to send handguns by usps.

As part of the contract you agreed to abide by their rules for shipping. If their rules require next day air, and you mis-identified the contents to get around that rule, you violated the contract with the shipper and they will NOT pay your insurance claim.
Of course if my gun is missing its hard to prove that my missing gun was really a gun and not machine parts.

Lone_Gunman
March 26, 2007, 06:43 PM
Of course if my gun is missing its hard to prove that my missing gun was really a gun and not machine parts.

No it really is not to hard to prove, because you will probably end up admitting it.

Lets say that you send a gun to Smith and Wesson. You send it as "machine parts". It goes missing and never makes it to S&W. You file a claim for the insurance. UPS decides they think it was a gun you shipped, since it was in the usual sized package for a handgun, and was going to S&W. So they deny your claim because you didnt follow company requirements for shipping.

Now, you can get a lawyer and sue UPS. Of course, that will cost you more than the gun was worth in the first place. If you sue, you will also have to go on legal record saying this was machine parts. You just committed insurance fraud when you did that, and are also guilty of perjury. Both are felonies. Not to mention, of course, that you lost any personal honor you had.

Is all that really worth saving $20 on shipping?

Desperado
March 26, 2007, 06:46 PM
When I had to send mine back for warranty repair, they said I had to go to a dealer to do it. USPS said it was illegal for them to send it, but the deale said they could, they just dont want to.

carnaby
March 26, 2007, 06:54 PM
I usually go to my FFL and have him send it. He charges me shipping cost (approx $25) + $10 for himself. Otherwise it's UPS or FedEx at $70+ :barf:

Zundfolge
March 26, 2007, 06:55 PM
Apparently, you're not required by federal law to notify them if you're shipping to an FFL by common carrier.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b8
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]


UPS and FedEx have policies that require handguns to go via next day air (to reduce the chance of theft by their employees) but these are not federal laws.

NEVER try to ship a handgun via US Postal Service unless you like prison rape (same thing goes for pulling the old "machined parts" line).

Firearms shipped across state lines MUST be shipped to an FFL with a couple of exceptions;
Its okay for the factory or service center to ship a firearm back to your door if you shipped it to them for service.
The CMP will ship firearms to your door.

Except for sending a firearm to the factory or for service you MUST have a signed copy of the recipient's FFL to ship.

Some states require you to ship FROM an FFL (this is something you need to verify on both your end and the receiver's end).



Federal firearms laws are NOT to be trifled with ... these people (BATFE) will stomp your kittens, shoot your wife/kid/dog and burn your house down if you screw with them (or at least send you away to a place where you don't wanna go to become someone's "girlfriend").

10 Ring Tao
March 26, 2007, 07:00 PM
Shipping a handgun through the USPS without an FFL isn't up for debate, its actually illegal and not just a policy of some corporation.

If the address you're sending it to is an obvious and known firearms manufacturer, you might as well play it straight.

And this is what the ATF has to say about it...

http://pixpipeline.com/st/1cd8ea275189.jpg (http://pixpipeline.com/d/1cd8ea275189.jpg)

03Shadowbob
March 26, 2007, 08:34 PM
CrownRoyal,
Why do you bet it is a Taurus? And why do you only show Don Hume holsters on your website? What are your thoughts on Don Hume holsters?

Yoder
March 26, 2007, 08:49 PM
I work for a shipping company, we have to assume all packages that are sealed prior to shipping are sealed within the laws of the country/state they are being shipped to/from/and accross. If an employee packs the package for you they have to ensure they pack in in accordance with the same rules. With no cartridges, and a clean gun, it should be no issue to send it priorty overnight, standard overnight, or certainly not a problem to ship it ground. I would recommend letting them pack it as proper packaging means not being damaged. And ensureing that the shipping company in question is responsible for the package. Packages destroyed do to contents are not the responsibility of the shipping company. That is a phrase that makes the profit margin.

But most gun manufacturers will have a favorite shipper and in my limited experience even send you an empty box to ship back to them.

MudCamper
March 26, 2007, 08:54 PM
On a related question, what if you send all the parts for an AR-15 minus the lower receiver. Legally only the lower is the firearm. So what do you call the stuff you are sending, and are there any legal hangups?

Neo-Luddite
March 26, 2007, 09:32 PM
Remember:

When you ship anything via FedEx you are giving them permission to have a look in your box if they need to (fine print on the shipping form spells this out). They don't have to tell you or even give you ANY explanation. From my experience no one really has the time to sneak a peak for no reason and Fedex (like UPS) is a pretty straight-laced company in most ways. However--if the box is opened and contains a firearm that was not declared there will be a very big delay and your firearm may end up with a govenment agency if it was not declared at time of shipping.

You SHOULD tell them what's in the box so that they know and can ensure it gets secured properly. Easiest thing to avoid hastle--call the ship center ahead of time and ask the manager who can best handle the weapon when you bring it in. Also, don't count on a Fedex Ship Center or Fedex-Kinko's wrapping the thing up for you---they are probably not permitted to do so as part of their packing services (although I'm sure some do anyway).

PPGMD
March 26, 2007, 09:42 PM
With no cartridges, and a clean gun, it should be no issue to send it priorty overnight, standard overnight, or certainly not a problem to ship it ground.

Incorrect Fedex only allows firearms of all types to be sent via Priority Overnight.

Here is a sight with a nice summary of firearms shipping rules, it turns out that I am wrong UPS will accept pistols, but also only via next day air.

http://www.thegunzone.com/ship-guns.html

10 Ring Tao
March 26, 2007, 10:17 PM
Incorrect Fedex only allows firearms of all types to be sent via Priority Overnight.

If you read the entire thread, thats one of the points, is the question whether the shipping company should be told. Legally, they don't have to be. Any rule saying they need to be told is a company policy, not law.

PPGMD
March 26, 2007, 10:26 PM
There is no reason that you have to tell them except for USPS where it's against Federal Law.

But if the firearm is shipped against their policy good luck getting an insurance check if it's lost or stolen.

Car Knocker
March 26, 2007, 10:26 PM
Zundfolge,

If you read the codes cited, you will see that the FAQ is a broad oversimplification and is inaccurate. Notification is not ALWAYS required when shipping via contract or common carrier.

Soybomb
March 26, 2007, 10:53 PM
However--if the box is opened and contains a firearm that was not declared there will be a very big delay and your firearm may end up with a govenment agency if it was not declared at time of shipping. You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?

You SHOULD tell them what's in the box
I'm not sure that I agree with you there. Most manufacturers will warn you to not put the company name on the box just because it increases the chance of theft if they know whats inside. I kind of like the idea of my $800 package getting lost in a sea of boxes with vintage table lamps off ebay, funny shirts, cookies from mom, and martial aids from california...kind of like not flashing your wallets contents at the checkout line. Ymmv but I feel no obligation to tell people the contents of my mail, letters or packages, unless its hazmat.

RNB65
March 26, 2007, 11:05 PM
If you read the codes cited, you will see that the FAQ is a broad oversimplification and is inaccurate. Notification is not ALWAYS required when shipping via contract or common carrier.

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- What the BATFE says in their FAQ contradicts what is said in 18 U.S.C. 922 and 27 CFR 478.31. The BATFE says what they want you to believe, not what the law says.

Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any case law to see how the courts have ruled on this issue. Maybe someone with better legal research skills can do a search for court rulings on this issue.

mek42
March 26, 2007, 11:28 PM
Would it be possible to pay a little extra and let your friendly local FFL ship it for you? My local FFL ships firearms for a modest fee. If I recall correctly the fee is either waived or actual shipping costs only if it is a firearm purchased from him being sent to the factory, but that's one of the reasons I keep going back to this particular store.

PPGMD
March 26, 2007, 11:30 PM
You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?


No he's not worried about the ATF coming at him, instead he's worried about UPS sending your firearm to the ATF for attempting to send an item possibly illegally.

Your advice is good, but you still have to tell the counter agent at the facility that you dropped them off at it contains a firearm. The shipper will make sure that you are following company policy and prevent possible problems. Similar to when you receive ammo from an internet company.

There is no reason not to tell the shipping company that the package contains a firearm if you intend to ship it within company rules. Also by following company rules is the only way that you can get an insurance check if the package is lost of stolen.

The only time you would not tell the shipper that you are shipping a firearm is if you want to be a cheap skate and not ship it via Next Day Air via Fedex or UPS (if you are an FFL). By Federal Law you must tell the USPS that you are shipping a firearm. It's the law and you could end up in prison.

Powderman
March 26, 2007, 11:43 PM
I ship handguns USPS priority w/delivery confirmation. I do not tell anyone there is a gun inside // yes probably a taurus


:mad: :mad: :fire:

Ladies and gentlemen:

I will stay on the High Road and not say what I am thinking.

I will, however, post the truth of the matter.

Regarding private parties/individuals:

You MAY ship firearms to factories/gunsmiths for repair. If the same firearm is repaired and replaced, it can be returned directly to you. If the firearm is unserviceable, and a new serial number is issued, it must be transferred to you through an FFL as a new transaction.

You MAY ship handguns and long guns via FedEx or UPS. How they get there is a matter of company policy. Both services, AFAIK, require overnight transport of handguns.

You MAY ship long guns via the US Postal Service. They must be sealed in a tamper evident type of tape (available at the Post Office) and must be shipped Certified Mail.

You May NOT ship handguns through the US Mail TO DO SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

You may NOT ship a firearm to a non-licensee. TO DO SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

You MUST declare that the item you are shipping is a firearm. TO SHIP A FIREARM WITHOUT DOING SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

To the original poster: congratulations. You just admitted that you have committed a Federal felony-level offense in a public forum. I hope you get arrested.

Call me a JBT, a tail-light chaser, whatever! I don't give a rip--I am a Sworn Officer, and some of you folks need to wake up and smell the coffee! If you are going to do something ILLEGAL, that's your business--but keep it to yourself, please! I REALLY don't want to read about your Criminal Stupidity.

Have a nice sentence, felon. :mad:

Neo-Luddite
March 26, 2007, 11:46 PM
You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?


No--not what I was getting at. No big secret (on my part)--I was a manager at FedEx for several years. If you don't declare the contents up front you will limit the potential liability (on Fed-Ex's part) to being $100.00. They will also likely become upset if they have reason to open the box somewhere in transit and it will become a security issue. They would probably just call you, but they may decide to do otherwise if they felt you were up to something by virtue of the fact that you didn't tell them what was in the box. In this case, the gun's value will be only 100.00 if it goes missing. And that's it.

People get nervous about what is in those boxes. By placing it in their hands, it does become their business. Fedex will ship almost ANYTHING for a price if you tell them up front. Let it be ID'd as a gun at the point of shipping and it will be more secure before it enters the sea of boxes (which it will). It won't say 'gun' in big read letters--but it will be less of an internal theft tempatation (if that's a concern of yours) because the Fedex Overbrain will know that it is responsible for that $800.00 weapon and act accordingly.

Just my thoughts on it. It helps if you find a 'go-to' Fedex person you trust where you ship from to make things easier.

carnaby
March 26, 2007, 11:53 PM
Powderman, isn't there an exception to shipping out of state to a non-licensee if that non-licensee is yourself and you own the firearm in question?

You can also ship a rifle or shotgun to any non-licensee IN YOUR OWN STATE who may legally own that rifle or shotgun, provided your particular state doesn't outlaw that sort of thing, IIRC.

Futuristic
March 27, 2007, 12:03 AM
Powderman wrote:
You may NOT ship a firearm to a non-licensee. TO DO SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

You MUST declare that the item you are shipping is a firearm. TO SHIP A FIREARM WITHOUT DOING SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

The first item is wrong, in the context that you MAY ship to a Non-Licensee ONLY under very limited circumstances. See here, from the BATFE Firearms FAQs:

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier [B]to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. [B]A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.

The second item is wrong, in that the actual US Code clearly states that you MUST notify the Carrier that there is a Firearm in the package being shippped, ONLY if you are shipping to a Non-Licensee. If you are shipping to a Licensee of any sort, then you DO NOT have to declare the firearm to the carrier. This is legal, but as others have pointed out, not particularly wise. You would forego most Insurance coverage, and the carrier might be miffed if they detected the undeclared firearm. Note the RED text in the quote above from the BATFE Firearms FAQs is wrong, or at least incomplete.

Note that the USPS has some regulations which may or may not clearly make it a crime to fail to inform them that a package in the mail contains a Long Gun. (I'm still looking for a clear cite on the latest regulations on this point, if anyone can help!)

For grins, here is the relevant US Code cite for the Not Having to Declare stuff:

18 USC 922 (e):
(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or
cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for
transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to
persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers,
licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other
container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without
written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is
being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or
legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard
any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or
ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or
operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the
trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No
common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag,
or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other
container contains a firearm.


Futuristic

Autolycus
March 27, 2007, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by 10 Ring Tao:
If you read the entire thread, thats one of the points, is the question whether the shipping company should be told. Legally, they don't have to be. Any rule saying they need to be told is a company policy, not law.

See Zundfolge's post above yours. It is the law that you have to notify them what you are shipping is a firearm.

RNB65
March 27, 2007, 12:11 AM
See Zundfolge's post above yours. It is the law that you have to notify them what you are shipping is a firearm.

Tecumseh,

Cite, please. Not the BATFE FAQ. Please show me in the US Code/CFR where the law requires the carrier to be notified (UPS/FEDEX. I know that shipping by USPS requires an FFL.).

Soybomb
March 27, 2007, 01:31 AM
You MUST declare that the item you are shipping is a firearm. TO SHIP A FIREARM WITHOUT DOING SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.

To the original poster: congratulations. You just admitted that you have committed a Federal felony-level offense in a public forum. I hope you get arrested.

Call me a JBT, a tail-light chaser, whatever! I don't give a rip--I am a Sworn Officer, and some of you folks need to wake up and smell the coffee! If you are going to do something ILLEGAL, that's your business--but keep it to yourself, please! I REALLY don't want to read about your Criminal Stupidity.
Mr. Sworn Officer, before telling people what they're doing is illegal and admonishing them for their bad behavior, would you kindly cite the law they're breaking in not notifying UPS/feded that its gun they're shipping to a FFL?

I'll get started with a letter from the ATF that cites the relevant code and confirms the legality of it. http://cyber-byte.com/photos/atf.jpg

Here's a link to a copy of the code itself http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

I'd love to see you say that perhaps you were using your LEO status to give yourself credibility in an area of law that you weren't familiar with and retract your previous "supidity" comments, or be proven wrong myself. THR has a problem with threads turning into cop bashing sometimes and I never think thats a good thing, but keep in mind things like this are what reflect negatively on your profession. I really think you're trying to encourage people to do the right there here and thats commendable, but I think you need to know the law you're going to tell people they're violating.

Powderman
March 27, 2007, 01:46 AM
While I understand the reply, Soybomb, I only go by what I have learned. This is what I have learned:

"May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?"

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

The quote and cite is direct from www.atf.gov, in their FAQ section.

You go ahead and argue with BATFE if you wish. I won't.

And, I'm sorry--but stating that you have committed an illegal act in a public forum is STUPID for a number of reasons. First reason: why give those who wish to take our freedoms away any more ammunition than they have?

Second reason: Declaring that you break the law with impunity in this manner is the same as wearing pork-chop drawers and wrestling with a hungry tiger. Not very smart.

I stand by my previous post. There were some clarifications made concerning shipping firearms to yourself, or in care of another person, to yourself, and shipping within State lines.

gudel
March 27, 2007, 01:56 AM
lots of mumbo jumbo here, quite useless and impractical.

so the bottom line is,
how do they know if it's a gun inside the box, do they check?

Soybomb
March 27, 2007, 01:57 AM
The quote and cite is direct from www.atf.gov, in their FAQ section.

You go ahead and argue with BATFE if you wish. I won't.
Oh now come on, you're a LEO, you don't bring people in on FAQ charges, you probably have a specific law to charge them with violation of if you're going to arrest them. Thats what I'm asking you for. Both the ATF faq and I have provided the relevant portions of the USC for you to read. I've provided a letter from the ATF that elaborates more on that code than the 1 line faq. Don't "cop out" and say thats all I know, put the leg work into this and learn something new. I've given you the means to learn something new, you don't have to search for the code of the ATF letter, I've provided a link to them both.

I think if you're going to tell people they're stupid and doing something illegal, you at least owe them the courtesy of reading the actual law if your opinion is challenged.

Powderman
March 27, 2007, 02:10 AM
Me? Arrest? Nah. Not applicable.

First, I have no way to follow someone onto Federal property and demand to examine a package. Post offices are WAY out of my jurisdiction.

I have no reasonable suspicion--much less probable cause--to demand to see the contents of a package. And even if I did know that this was happening, try convincing a judge--with the many violations of your rights that would occur if I DID try it.

No, the knock on the door will come from your friendly .gov LEO--who will probably get REAL curious when your box of "machine parts" breaks open to reveal a handgun.

As for the applicable law, look at the bottom of the post I just made. That is the section of Title 18--Crimes and Procedures--that the offender will be prosecuted under.

In short, ATF made it easy for you. They WARN you that it is illegal, and tell you EXACTLY what applicable statute they will prosecute you under. Go ahead and violate it if you wish. You will be standing up in the courtroom yelling about the sundry provisions of law that sometimes is so convoluted that even attorneys can't figure it out. In the mean time, ATF will continue their case, the offender will more than likely be found guilty, you will be convicted of a Federal firearms related crime, and you will go to prison.

You will also lose all of your guns, your livelihood and your money (which will go to various attorneys who will lose your appeals in quick succession), and your life will be ruined.

Oh, of course, you could get your civil rights restored. While I have heard of it happening, I do not know of ONE SINGLE PERSON that has had success with this maneuver.

And, after all of this is over, and you're telling your family what happened, I bet that you'll say, "Gee, if I had only spent the $45.00 to ship the thing overnight and declared it."

I guess some folks just HAVE to run into the brick wall, eh?

NOTE: This was NOT directed at you Soybomb--but was a general statement against the general attitude I see in some of the posters here.

10 Ring Tao
March 27, 2007, 02:13 AM
Do you people read threads at all, or just post willy nilly? It has been explained at least twice, in detail, why the FAQ on the ATF site is wrong.


See Zundfolge's post above yours. It is the law that you have to notify them what you are shipping is a firearm.

And see the post just above yours.


As for the cop pretending to be a lawyer/judge, your job is to enforce the law, not interpret it. The advice you've given here is a wonderful example of why. You took a very superficial explanation of the law, and espoused it as the whole truth. In reality, the entire text of the law says specifically that you only have to tell the common carrier (USPS excluded) if you are shipping to a non-licensee.

Powderman
March 27, 2007, 02:18 AM
Absolutely!!! You, sir (or ma'am) are spot on!

ATF is WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Why, they don't even know what they write on their own website!

Tell you what...

Why doesn't some brave High Roader here stand up for a grand experiment?

Go ship a firearm without declaring it. Go ahead. Ask the terminal to hold it for pickup.

When you go there, notify your local ATF office to come with you to the terminal. There, pick up and sign for the firearm. Turn to the ATF agent with the gun in the package, and inform them that you just shipped it without declaring it. Watch what happens.

Better yet, take them with you when you SHIP it! That ought to be fun!

Any takers?

rhinov
March 27, 2007, 02:49 AM
In August of 2006 I tried to ship a handgun back to the manufacturer for repair. I was told by both fed-ex and UPS that I could not ship a handgun. That it had to be sent by an FFL to the manufacturer and had to be returned to the FFL. The FFL told me that they had to have a UPS rep come out check the place of bussiness and they had to sign some kind of contract before they could ship handguns thru UPS. It was really a hassle but I was left with no alternative. It was not just one dealer that told me this. I had to go to three differant FFL's before I found one who could ship with UPS. The first two said the same thing , they did not have contracts with UPS to ship. This was my experiance for what it is worth. I dont know about long guns but I would pay the fee and have an FFL ship just to be on the safe side.

skinnyguy
March 27, 2007, 03:18 AM
I will be having a rifle that I own, but my ex-wife has custody of shipped from PA to UT sometime soon. I plan on contacting UPS, USPS, and FedEx DIRECTLY to find out what they require to LEGALLY make the transfer. The shipper knows what laws apply to them, and how to comply with those laws, and to help me comply, so I am not in unknowing violation of any law, whether Constitutional or not, whether one law says YOU CAN, and another says YOU CAN'T.

I'm remembering a t-shirt I seen once;

o
This is your ass
O
This is your ass in prison
Any questions?

Somehow, I just don't see where my rifle, no matter how much sentimental value it has to me, is worth it. I'm going where I can get info I can trust.

Soybomb
March 27, 2007, 04:21 AM
In August of 2006 I tried to ship a handgun back to the manufacturer for repair. I was told by both fed-ex and UPS that I could not ship a handgun. That it had to be sent by an FFL to the manufacturer and had to be returned to the FFL.
its not entirely uncommon for the person at the UPS counter (mind you we're talking about a hub, not the UPS place in the mall) to not be experienced with firearms. Most people have pretty good luck asking the UPS person to pull out their guide book and look up firearms, or to call for a supervisor. You might also print and bring their company policies with you in the future. http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

For what its worth the people at my UPS hub have always been polite and professional when I have chosen to declare that I'm shipping a handgun. The ask me if its going to a dealer or manufacturer and take it without hassle.

shc1
March 27, 2007, 06:50 AM
Letís not forgetÖ
If it is transported on ship itís cargo.
If itís transported by car itís called shipping.:scrutiny:

Dr. Dickie
March 27, 2007, 07:18 AM
Boy this has been done so many times that it is getting ridiculous. We need a sticky.
The federal law says that you do not have to notify the carrier if shipping to an FFL:
18 U.S.C. 922(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

As has been posted about 1000 times. Also, someone wrote to the ATF and verified this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2947738&postcount=9


HOWEVER, the carriers DO require that you notify them. As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm, so what-the-heck. Yeah, I know it grates you to have to declare it like we are in grade school, but some things just are not worth fighting over.

Neo-Luddite
March 27, 2007, 11:38 AM
There is an incredible lack of knowledge at the shipping counter about whether or not a non-FFL can ship a firearm under the company policy(they can, under certain conditions, but no one believes it or knows it). Most nodal points don't see weapons very often. Pulling out a copy of your FFL (even a type 3) will make everyone happier right away. Whether it is a C/R gun or not won't even matter to the carrier--they will be satisfied and you'll speed things along. For 30 bucks it does confer some defacto status in the private sector if you're not a type 1 actual dealer, etc.

Or get the manager up front.


Dr. Dickie:
As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm

FedEx will charge a bit (on anything) for the declared value. If you state the thing is worth over $500.00 they will ask to open and verify contents in front of you at the counter (this is also why the machine parts things doesn't work if it gets lost somehow or stolen).
You can't claim value of over 500 without doing this.
There is no 'up charge' for the fact it is a gun but there is for the value like on any other comodity. It isn't that much.

realmswalker
March 27, 2007, 11:48 AM
Someone I know just shipped a handgun to the ruger factory for repair via ups ground. He said the lady at the ups counter knew it was a gun as he showed it to her that it wasn't loaded and didn't tell him about any policy or having to ship it next day air. Were any laws broken here? the gun made it by the way.

Car Knocker
March 27, 2007, 12:01 PM
Were any laws broken here?
Nope. This shipping policy is an internal carrier matter.

If you enjoyed reading about "Shipping a gun. Should USPS/UPS know its a gun?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!