[twoblink]

Will a .308 do an engine block?

[DMK]

If you got an aluminum V-6, a 230gr. 45ACP might breeze through. If you've got an old cast iron 455 with forged rods and crank, it might give even a 30.06 trouble.

[SodaPop]

I know a guy that shot AP 30/06 and put a 2inch hole in a cast iron stove. I believe he shot it about 80-100yds away.

[Andrew Wyatt]

If the engine block was attractive enough and the .308 was in the mood, sure.

[WheelMan]

haha!

[El Rojo]

Andrew Wyatt, you are a class act! :D Don't forget alcohol could affect the .308 and/or the engine block's decision making process.

[Kalindras]

Friends don't let their guns "Bullet Goggle."

:scrutiny:

Seriously, though...don't let's let Andrew's remarks turn this thread to a question of...er...'penetration.' The next thing, we'll all be arguing over .223 vs. .308, and whether or not, "Size really matters..."

:neener:

[P95Carry]

Due to the brittle nature of cast iron I'd say it was perfectly possible. I have put 30 cal bullets into and thru various items such as gearboxes, axles etc .... at quite close range admittedly .... and usually, there is penetration or at least cracking.

Much will I think depend on strike geometry. If round hits absolutely perpendicular to block wall then very likely penetration can occur .. the problem areas then are where there are casting webs and the like, making for locally enhanced strength.

Where areas like oil galleries and or coolant channels are hit, then the outer wall can be well thin enough for damage IMO.

[sasnofear]

it's not the size of the bullet, but the motion in the ocean!

;)

[Poodleshooter]

A 55gr .223 FMJ will penetrate fully through a the top end of a 4cyl Chevy Cavalier head. That pretty much would stop a car dead. I'd imagine that a .308 would be able to fracture the block on just about any vehicle. Best hit would be in the driver's seat, or in the top end, ruining the timing.

[DMK]

Best hit would be in the driver's seat, or in the top end, ruining the timing Yea, you'd be surprised how hard it can be to kill an engine. Just putting a hole in the block may not do it. You'd have to break a critical internal component to be sure.

When I was a kid, I had a couple buddies who took a beat up old Pinto in the woods to race around. We hit some rocks and trees and stuff, putting numerous holes in the oil pan and radiator. We drove that thing for two days with no water or oil in it before it finally seized!

[mpthole]

I just did some digging around in FM90-10 and found this interesting bit of info about the 7.62

Weapon Penetration. The ability of the 7.62-mm and .50-caliber rounds to penetrate are also affected by the range to the target and type of material fired against. The 7.62-mm round is affected less by close ranges than the 5.56-mm; the .50-caliber’s penetration is reduced least of all.
(1) At 50 meters, the 7.62-mm ball round cannot penetrate a single layer of sandbags. It can penetrate a single layer at 200 meters, but not a double layer. The armor-piercing round does only slightly better against sandbags. It cannot penetrate a double layer but can penetrate up to 10 inches at 600 meters.
(2) The penetration of the 7.62-mm round is best at 600 meters but most urban targets are closer. The longest effective range is usually 200 meters or less. Table 8-3 explains the penetration capabilities of a single 7.62-mm (ball) round at closer ranges.

http://home.att.net/~mpthole/images/Table.jpg

[Cal4D4]

Thanks mpthole, that was pretty interesting.

[rock jock]

Wait, the .308 penetrates better with distance?? How is that possible, with reduced velocity and energy?

[larryw]

Poodleshooter wrote: "A 55gr .223 FMJ will penetrate fully through a the top end of a 4cyl Chevy Cavalier head."

There's got to be a story behind that one. Spill it! :D

[Navy joe]

Rock, I would assume that at closer ranges and higher velocities the bullet fragments quicker and is less stable and yaws quicker. Once it slows down and hits something like sand it keeps plugging along. Kinda like a hardcast bullet out of a .45-70 or something.

I would imagine the terminal effects on humans is greater at close range though.

[telewinz]

The way they are made today with alloys? Hell, I think a 22lr might have a chance on a windy day!:D

[mpthole]

added Table 8.3 to my above post... If anyone would like to view the full chapter of this field manual, its 661kb, just e-mail me or post your address.

[twoblink]

There is always a "magic" point where the bullet stability, energy etc... is perfect or at it's maximum.. Target too close, too much penetration, not enough "energy dump" too far, not enough penetration. Happy medium somewhere is what I suspect.

[RustyHammer]

Sure it could, but will still respect her in the morning ... that's the question?
:p :D


:neener:

[sasnofear]

:o use a LAW 2 b sure!

[telewinz]

the 30/06 class cartridge at military loading has greater penetration at 200 yards than at 100 yards or less. Thats the optimal range for stability and velocity.

[Marshall]

Everytime I got out engine block hunting, I have no quams with a 308. I have two mounted over my fireplace, a V8 pointer and strait six pointer (which is mighty weird looking). A non-typical by today's standards! :D

[Dave P]

mpthole - thats great data, thanks. But I can't buy it: energy is max at the muzzle. It only goes down from there.

So pine penetration at 100 yrds is 18 inches, but the bullet gains enough energy going to 200 yrds that it can now penetrate 41 inches? Talk about a magic bullet!
:confused:

Somebody help me!

[Navy joe]

Dave,
As I said earlier
I would assume that at closer ranges and higher velocities the bullet fragments quicker and is less stable and yaws quicker. Once it slows down and hits something like sand it keeps plugging along. Kinda like a hardcast bullet out of a .45-70 or something.

A non ballistic analogy. Take a sharp piece of coathanger wire. You can push it into any semirigid object like a snadbag all day long. Now instead of going slow, try to jab it in as fast as you can. Coathanger bends, less penetration. All the extra energy is wasted by deforming/re-directing the penetrator rather than punching through.

[Kaylee]

If the engine block was attractive enough and the .308 was in the mood, sure.

Funny! :)

But let's watch the innuendo guys. Gramma rule and all that.



-K

[Art Eatman]

:D

Grammaw's back. 3,000 fershlugginer miles in the last six daze!

I know that an '06 handload penetrates 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards. I'd guess that a perpendicular hit on cast iron would do severe damage, from a .308. Even if there weren't a clean hole, there would be damaging cracking into an oil gallery or a water passage.

:), Art

[ShaiVong]

So pine penetration at 100 yrds is 18 inches, but the bullet gains enough energy going to 200 yrds that it can now penetrate 41 inches? Talk about a magic bullet!

Come on! Dont be dense! The second rocket stage kicks in right at about 150 yards!

[Poodleshooter]

Poodleshooter wrote: "A 55gr .223 FMJ will penetrate fully through a the top end of a 4cyl Chevy Cavalier head."
larryw wrote:
There's got to be a story behind that one. Spill it!

My brother in law's old chevy cavalier died rather treacherously, stranding him,IIRC. The head was removed when it went to the junkyard, in anticipation of an upcoming www.ar15.com machinegun shoot. The head became a subsequent target for our anger with vehicles. It's amazing how brittle that aluminum is :D
Of course, the old woody station wagon that some generous soul brought to that shoot (last April,IIRC) was even more fun to shoot-till it caught fire and burned after the Ma Deuce took it on. They just don't build station wagons to resist .50 API the way they used to!

[mpthole]

Dave P, and the rest:

You'll have to take those numbers up with the military, they came straight out of FM 90-10.

[twoblink]

I have all but standarized on the 308 for my rifle needs (only gonna keep probably 2 calibers for rifles; .22LR and .308Win)

So needed to know if the 308 is versatile enough for your urban as well as your wildlife needs...

Will it shoot through a regular car brake disk??

[Art Eatman]

Aw, c'mon, twoblink. How would anybody know? Ya gotta get past the wheel and the caliper, among other problems...And if a car is moving, that's a small target...

A .308 will take out anything likely to show up in some urban HooHah. Your own skill and "hittability" is far more important than what sort of metal a .308 will punch through. (Unless you're gonna use old brake discs to line the walls of your house. :D )

I still say that if a fella is really, really worried about all this urban stuff, he oughta move. Now.

:), Art

[Andrew Wyatt]

.308 is no great shakes as an AMR.

I'd shoot at the driver instead of the brakes if i were being run down by a car.

[twoblink]

You got me all wrong Art!

I'm just wondering if the perp is hiding behind the wheel-well of a car; if I can penetrate the brakedisks..

Also, I wanted to know if the cops are carrying .308's and shooting at me, if hiding behind an engine block and/or a brakedisk is a good idea..

I don't think a .223 will do either...

Yeah, PRK questions.. I know I know...:D

[WonderNine]

A 55gr .223 FMJ will penetrate fully through a the top end of a 4cyl Chevy Cavalier head. That pretty much would stop a car dead.

No, actually it would just start running crappy. :D

[Art Eatman]

twoblink, if a perp were hiding behind the wheel, I'd either go into "wait" mode or possibly try flanking him. Alternatively, try for a position where you can shoot under the car and possibly through the tire. Seems to me it's pretty much a truly tactical decision...

And, hey! What if it's your car?

:), Art

[ShaiVong]

Just throw a frag over the car! :cool:

[Jim K]

A rifle bullet normally leaves the barrel with a yaw, so that the center of the base is actually rotating around the axis of the bullet point. This causes less penetration at short distances (below 50-75 yards) because the bullet tends to tip on strking a target. The bullet will actually have more penetration after it stabilizes.

This is hardly a new discovery, it has been known since the earliest days of elongated bullets, and has been proven by setting up paper targets about 10 feet apart for 100 yards or so. The "keyholes" of a yawing bullet are very evident at short ranges.

Since at least part of this can be due to an uneven muzzle, and/or an uneven bullet base both should be examined closely when maximum accuracy is desired.

The same thing happens with pistol bullets, but it is less obvious at shorter ranges with short bullets.

To answer the question, a 7.62 NATO AP will shoot through both sides of an engine block unless it hits the thick part of the piston. Guaranteed to stop the engine. Anyone doubting this, let me know. I will provide the rifle and ammo, you provide the car.

Jim

[Marshall]

Twoblink, are you just messin with us? Sittin back and watchin us answer these questions and rolling on the floor laughing?

If not, what are you doing that makes you have to worry about the need of hiding behind engine blocks and brake drums/disks because of LEO's firing at you? Stop doing whatever that may be and you won't need to ask this!

Never mind, don't answer the last question! :rolleyes:

[twoblink]

Marshall,

It's always good to know what you are up against..

To answer your question more thoroughly..

I have decided to "standarize" on the .308Win as my rifle caliber. Reasons? NATO, cheap to shoot, and good selection of hunting ammo (Nosler, Bear Claw etc..) as far as practice target round, hunting, and "cheap" round to shoot. (I got rid of my SKS, and so no more 7.62x39's for me) only 308's.

So I'm wondering if in Skunk's world, the SHTF, will the 308 hold up in Urban warfare? How about if I'm up against a 308? Would I be safe hiding behind a wheel well, with a brake disk as protection?

If a bad guy is driving towards me, if my shot dips (miscalculation of distance on my part and the bullet drops a bit) and I don't hit the guy and it hits the engine block, (say at 100 - 200 yards) will it stop the engine or will the car keep driving full steam towards me??

Questions I thought I'd get answers to...

[Fish Springs]

30+ years ago It was not un-common to purchase '06 "practice" ammo and find a few rounds of black tipped, AP in some of the boxes. So the question was--just what will the 150 FMJ penetrate compared to the AP? In some places, a 20 gallon trash can full of loose rounds could be seen with a fair number of black tipped '06 in the mix.

About this itme (it was still legal to buy mail order guns) Some friends happend upon a Chevy dumped at an abandoned gravel pit frequented by shooters prior to deer season.

I am told that 30/06 AP will penetrate the block, axle, and brake drum of a 60's vintage Chevy. The same car and pieces caused the 150 FMJ to rivet and drop to the ground after passing through the brake drum and hitting the cast iron V-8 engine block. Fired against the 350 CID cast iron block, the 150 FMJs would take pretty large chunks out of the block and depart at un-predictable angles. The AP would go from one side of the car to the other at nearly any angle of fire.

I am told that the '06 AP was very imressive as the round shed its copper jacket coming out of the brake drum on its way into the engine block--many steel to steel sparks were made to light up the evening.

While not scientific evidence: I'd not want to try hiding behind any part of a car if there was the slightest possibility of some .30 cal AP being in the mix. Personally I'd not want to try and hide behind a car while some one is shooting a .308 with FMJ milliary ball it. The odds may favor the shooter. Also, body pannels are not cover :uhoh:

[Uncle Ethan]

I have a nice stash of 30-06 AP stored, but haven't found any in 7.62 NATO- maybe I ought to pull a few hundred bullets and reload them into 7.62 NATO- but I don't know the powder charge. AP sounds like the thing to have.

[stubby]

I believe a bullet could penetrate a greater distance at 200 yards than it would at the muzzle. At extreme high velocity, excessive expansion can occur, causing the projectile to lose mass, reducing penetration.

[abaddon]

can lowly citizens still buy AP ammo?

[twoblink]

I'm wondering if something like a softpoint will release energy into an engine block faster, I don't think penetration is a that great vs. energy dump, as I think rapid energy dump will shatter cast iron, or fragment aluminum..

[ShaiVong]

can lowly citizens still buy AP ammo?

Not as I understand it. I'm sorry. The Government does not trust you. I know, its a shock.

[Rule .308]

New guy here, after reading the above thread I have a question about loading your bullets backwards. As funny as it sounds I have been told by people that are supposed to be in a position to know that if you load a typical 150 grain .30 cal bullet in backwards it has much greater penetrating properties on hardened targets. I've been reloading for years and have yet to try this one out. Has anyone here tried it or heard of it and if so what do you think? Reality or just another piece of gun nut urban folk lore?

[mpthole]

re: .30 cal AP ammo

Can't say that I see it very often, but I have seen it available. Mostly in .30-06 IIRC. Of course, .50 BMG is a whole 'nother arena altogether... plenty of that around.

[Art Eatman]

Rule .308, this was a common practice in the 1930s, during the Depression, to make hunting loads from GI ammo. The base has a lot of lead exposed, and would open up in dramatic fashion.

Some would hacksaw the nose from a GI bullet. Sometimes a big mistake, as the lead core could blow out and leave the jacket in the barrel. The next shot ruined the barrel.

Playing around on 5/16" armor plate at 100 yards, long ago, I learned that GI Ball ammo wouldn't fully penetrate, but max-load handloads would blow through, leaving a 3/4" hole.

Art

[44 Dan]

We took an old disc brake rotor from a 3/4 ton 4x4 to test the penetration of some Hot Shot SS109 (223). After that fun I tried some 7.62 ball. The South African 308 ball ammo was far superior. The 308 would make passes right through the rotor when solid hits were made. Likewise hits with the AP 223 would only get 70% penetration at best.

Not to start any caliber wars because I'm sure there are other brands of 223 that would perform better. Either of the two would make short work of a cast engine block.

This test was done at 75yds. I have another rotor and will see what happens at 300-600yd range with the 308.

I'll Let Ya'll Know, 44 Dan

[twoblink]

I went shooting in the desert before, and with everything I've got; we shot at an old transmission; the .40SW didn't do much, the .22LR did even less, the 7.62x39 was fairly effective, but didn't clear the tranny block lengthwise.. the 8mm and 308 both had no problems... So I figured the diskbrakes would be roughly similar...

[Gewehr98]

http://mauser98.com/308front.jpg

http://mauser98.com/308back.jpg

[Uncle Ethan]

Did it have a cigarette and read the mag afterward?:D

[twoblink]

Hmm... is that a softpoint? I'm kind of concerned about the lack of expansion on that HD there...


Gewehr98, can you tell me a little bit about the ammo used? How far away and what length barrel on the gun?

[Gewehr98]

26" barrel, 100 yards away, using 147gr FMJBT handloads (Those bulk FN-FAL bullets from Wideners, make good .308 plinkers)

Hence little, if any, expansion.

My 6.5-06 with Nosler Ballistic Tips opened up much better in the hard drive.

But the .45-70 with hard cast bullets took the cake. ;)

I can repost the pics of the other calibers if anybody wants them.

[Frohickey]

Why load the FMJ backwards?

Why not just cast or make some 30 caliber wadcutter bullets?

[SquirrelNuts]

Interesting read on an old thread. I have some things to add:

1) I shoot at old hard drives and CD-ROM drives all the time. A .22 Magnum will waste them, so will 9mm. A .308 or 30-06 is overkill for them.

2) I also shoot old expired soup cans. They make a much larger mess at 100 yards than they do at 25 or 50 yards. I shoot them with Remington pointed soft points 180 gr. in 30-06. The cans at 25 and 50 yards just seem to split apart, but stay in one piece, and do not really go anywhere. The cans at 100 yards rip to shreads, and parts can be found 15 feet away. The same goes for milk jugs filled with water, and kittens, but it is hard to hit moving targets. Rubber bands on the feet usually do the trick.

3) I have a book called "Combat Loads for the Sniper Rifle" or something like that. They did tests on engine blocks. I will try to find the book and post the results. They determined that, in conjunction with tire tests, shooting through the tire into the engine was the best way to disable a vehicle.

4) I was just kidding about the kittens.

-SquirrelNuts

[Jmurman]

A 55gr .223 FMJ will penetrate fully through a the top end of a 4cyl Chevy Cavalier head.

I see that Chevrolet is discontinuing the Cavalier...maybe we can get some "targets" from them. :)

[Ky Larry]

Chevy is probably discontinuing the Cavalier becase people keep shooting them.

[Marko Kloos]

The same goes for milk jugs filled with water, and kittens, but it is hard to hit moving targets. Rubber bands on the feet usually do the trick.


You are one sick and twisted goon. I appreciate that in a man. :D

[Ky Larry]

We gun-nuts use assault weapons on kittens. Just ask any anti-gun liberal.

[Black Dragon]

There is a book out, and I can't recall the name for sure. Something like "Combat loads for Sniper rifles". It talks about Engine blocks being shot with FMJ's, Brass bullets, and what not from .223's, 308's, 338's and 50's. The 308's might below out a piston or something but that engine could still right. I'll have to find the book and review it.

[curt]

If the car is close enough to be an immediate threat then you could hit that engine with a .50BMG and still get run over, if its not that close then what the heck are you doing shooting at it! This is the result of people believing movies are real.

[Mike Irwin]

Your best hope is to crack the block and cause a coolant leak.

It's not going to be an immediate stop, though.

[B9mmHP]

Back in 1959, this dude I knew was barrowing some gas from a sand pit fuel tank, been doing it for some time. The owner got a little tired of it, and shot the car with one of those 30-30,s, went trough the door, dudes leg, into the cast iron transmission, busted it all up, the leg also.:D

[Blain]

The penetration of the 7.62-mm round is best at 600 meters but most urban targets are closer. The longest effective range is usually 200 meters or less.

Is it me, or is this an oxymoron??

[Art Eatman]

Aw, Blain, I doubt he wuz talking about the effective killing range of a .308. Just got his tongue tangled around his eye-tooth and couldn't see what he was saying...

Like where you use "effectively" as "for all practical purposes".

:), Art

[uglygun]

Something a few of you might find interesting.


1 1/4 inch steel plate, not sure of exact composition or hardness though.

Projectile, 165grn AP pull.

Cartridge, 300WinMag delivering probably 3100+fps.

Back side of plate....

http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/penetrated.jpg

Front side of plate close up of some of the holes.
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/holyheck.jpg



As for fracturing a block or hitting it, I would think it would have A LOT to do with geometry of the car's engine bay and just how much garbage is in the way to deflect the bullet or start it tumbling.


I would think going for the wheels and trying to put a hole through the brake rotor or maybe fracture the heck out of the brake caliper would be a better move, the car would be able to continue on driving but not for long before something spectacular happened....


Disc brake rotors often fail to even 5.56x45mm, not the most impressive cast metal with those things. Bigger/nastier rounds likely would do a whole lot o damage.


As soon as I played around with the 300WinMag loadings, using IMR4830 right now and right about 1.5 grains under published max, I couldn't help but wonder what I might have been able to do if I had some more modern 147grn AP pills to load into the 300WinMag. Better yet, I couldn't help but wonder what a 300RUM would do with either the 165s or 147s, VELOCITY IS KING! :)

I may yet put a hole through that silly plate, I can't help but wonder if another .5 grains might be able to make it. I'm being very careful to watch for signs of over pressure, the longer bearing surface of the 165 APs is obvious where the less dense core accounts for a bigger bullet. They are comparable in size to a 180-190grain SMK, here's two pics of the suckers you all might find interestin.

165AP on left next to the 308Win cartridge, old 168grain Amax VLD in the middle, and a 180grain SMK on the right.
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/bullets/bulletcomp.jpg

I need to get a better cross section of the bullet in better lighting.
http://home.bak.rr.com/varmintcong/APplate/apcutaway.jpg


As for playing with AP stuff, stay away from trying to play with 7.62Nato AP because the regulations out there governing AP ammo are supposedly with regards to handgun ammo. How's that apply to the 7.62Nato? Because there are a few handguns chambered for 7.62Nato/308WInchester and with the bans/regs on AP ammo used in handguns it's bad ju-ju to have AP ammo that will work in that handgun.

30/06 AP and 50BMG AP are supposed to be okie dokie because there are no common or widely available handguns for those rounds. Similar with say playing around with 300WinMag and old M2 pulls.

But then, I'm no lawyer or professional with regards to the exact specifics. People in the ammunition/reloading industry could go further in depth on this I am certain.

[mpthole]

Uglygun - great pics! Just curious... from what distance was that round fired?

I have a similar picture of a .50 BMG AP round fired at ~1500 yards entering a 1/2" steel plate, but not exiting. Anything 1000 yards and closer zipped right through it. :cool: But I imagine that the extra 500 yards and the relatively short barrel length on an M99 (as compared to a M2) caused the velocity to drop significantly.

[ The persptive of this picture is a little odd. I didn't take the picture, so don't blame me, k? ] ;)

http://home.att.net/~mpthole/images/APIT_1.jpg

[Sven]

http://www.imageseek.com/sven/tn_2003/tn_march_2003_still.jpg
Click to download 2,573 KB video (MPEG) (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/tn_2003/tn_march_2003.mpg)


http://www.imageseek.com/sven/tn_2003/exit_wound_small.jpg
Ultra Hi-Res (http://www.imageseek.com/sven/tn_2003/exit_wound.jpg)
The effects of .308 on tempered steel at 100 yards.

[uglygun]

Doh, knew I was forgetting something....


Distance of the plate was a max of only 60-70 yards away.


It's TOUGH steel by the looks of it. I'm pretty sure it's not mild steel.

I have yet to accuracy test these 165grainers but I'd love to try them out at about 300 yards or so on the same plate to see what type of results I get.


I wish I knew the specifics of the steel but for 10 bucks for a 45 pound piece of steel, I ain't complainin.

I could use that thing as a plinker for QUITE a long time if I shot it only with 5.56x45mm or lower rounds...


190grain SMKs from a 300Winmag would leave about a 5/8 by 5/8 crater that you can stick your entire pinky into down beyond the finger nail.

5.56x45mm would make a crater only about 3/8 by 3/8 inch.


The cool thing, was the way the plate would almost scream in agony when hit by the 165s. The 190s and the 55grn 5.56x45mm would just "clank" with each impact but with the 165s as they bored into the metal you could hear a bit different sound which was almost like the ringing of a tuning fork.



Oh, and I have a curiosity about the Barnse Copper Solid spire points in the 165 grain weight range. If I can push those suckers fast enough I'm curious what the solids will do. Harder than lead but softer than steel. It could make for some interesting results, it's likely that friction will completely melt the bullet in it's entirity which could make for some very interesting results. The velocity of the copper solids is nothing compared to the insane velocities of what a HEAT or shape charge AP round is capable of pushing it's copper penetrator up to but that's the reason behind why I'm interested in seeing what a copper or even bronze projectile will do. I ALWAYS see copper jacketing glazed on the entrance holes of shot up metal, ofcourse that's just the jacket of the bullet shedding away and it's actually the lead core that does most of the damage making the crater. If lead does that alone I can't help but wonder what copper solids would do.



Heck, I'm just trying to burn out my barrel so that I can have a "reason" or justification for sending the thing off to George Gardner to have it fully worked over.

[Desert Dog]

If .300 win mag will puncture a 1.5" steel plate like that, the a .308 should annihilate a brittle cast iron car engine block...

I shot a Nissan 4-cylinder engine I found in the desert at 10 yards and penetrated all the way through the #3 cylinder, and piston, cracking the block on the far side, with a heavily loaded .45 Colt round shot from a Puma 454... Those 335 grain bullets PENETRATE...

Mike

[jacketch]

A couple of years back I had a young fella working for me who had a Nissan Maxima that he had fixed up really nice with a very loud stereo. Very loud. Very, very loud. He truly thought he was impressing everyone with his music. One day he went to see his girlfriend and when he went inside her house he left the car running with the stereo thumping. Now while some people may love loud music, others don't. Specially in the hood where a lot of people work the night shift and sleep during the day. One of the neighbors obviously didn't have the same taste in music and he came out and fired six rounds from a .357 into the hood of the car. When the noise of the gunfire died there was an amazing silence.

The young fella told me later that four of the rounds struck the V6 engine block and two of them went through it. He soon had the engine replaced but drove around with the holes in the hood for about a year.

No one called the cops and the shooter wasn't charged. The young fella didn't complain to him either.

[curt]

Man i like that magnum shooters style!

[MechAg94]

I believe I saw one of the tests from the Box O' Truth website where they fired into a sand box. The pistol bullets remained in tact and actually traveled farther into the sand than the rifle bullets. The rifle bullets (.223 and .308) both fragmented heavily in the sand. He showed a picture of the some of the pieces that remained.

[Joejojoba111]

I'm not sure the engine would stop if you did put a bullet into or through a cylinder. It might not start, but it might not stop. The flywheel could have enough momentum to snap a connecting rod or a rod bearing, or strip something, and the other cylinders are still firing in addition.

What would be spectacular might be a hit on the flywheel!

But if I had one shot to kill an engine, I'd probably aim for the distributor. I'd miss, but what can you do? And if it's a new solid-state job, then who knows! Probably best to aim for the wheels and keep shooting.

Gwehr I'd like to see pictures, though, yes!

And MPThole read an article called 'cartridge effectiveness study' or the pig board, 2. They talk about bullets out of something called brass drill rod, or copper rod. I guess you buy a rod and then just cut it off to make bullets? Plus the spitzer penetrates best, and the boat-tail keeps the velocity for the spitzer to penetrate.

[WheelMan]

I bet Gwehr didn't think he'd get called out on that picture offer more than two years later. :)

[tex_n_cal]

...It would also be interesting to see what a round of tracer will do to a full gas tank.

Since I'm now back in CA, don't have any of the stuff - someone in another state will have to conduct the tests :D

[Cesiumsponge]

Gas tanks usually can't explode if there isn't an ideal explosive mixture to promote explosion. You need a certain air-fuel ratio for ignition and explosion. Gas vapors or mist is what causes and explosion. If you shot a gas tank, it'd likely just pour out gas onto the ground from the bullet hole, which would then vaporize and burn, but no boom. A full gas tank is in less risk of explosion than an almost-empty one.

[grimjaw]

re: the hard drive penetration posts, doesn't take much to do those, I've seen it done with a punch and a hammer. I did see an interesting way to destroy those once, though.

Last job I worked was for the Air Force. The rules for disposing old hard drives was to either sanitize them electronically or destroy them. I had ten Western Digital 1GB drives to get rid of, and didn't want to take the time to sanitize them. My office happened to be next door to explosive ordnance disposal, and I called in a favor.

They stacked all ten drives in a metal ammo box. They fill a metal canister of a little over a foot in length and less than three inches in diameter with the equivalent of a .50 caliber BMG charge on one end (forgive me, the facts of the explosive used I didn't get). The rest of the canister was filled with tap water. I don't remember what they capped the end with. We walked down to the other side of the parking lot and they popped the charge. IIRC, there was only one hard drive that wasn't visibly damaged by impact, but it wouldn't start. The first couple of drives were *completely* demolished, leaving a hole as big as the size of the canister. I have the pic on one of my computers, let me know if you want me to dig it up.

I miss those guys. They had empty or mockup pieces of all kinds of ordnance, including a very large missle, for practice.

jmm

jmm

[Cesiumsponge]

Pictures make me happy. Me want!

[WheelMan]

Whatever those platters in a hard drive are made of they have a very low melting point. We through one in a camp fire (a big one... more of a bonfire I guess) and it melted into a little pile of gray lump.

[geekWithA.45]

Also, I wanted to know if the cops are carrying .308's and shooting at me, if hiding behind an engine block and/or a brakedisk is a good idea..


Considering a career in crime, are we? :neener:

I hear the pay's not that good and the dental plan sucks.

And if you've got better cover than an engine block handy, by all means, you should use it.

[slopemeno]

A little story... I used to shoot at a spot in NorCal where it was cool, at the time anyway, to bring junk out and use it as reactive targets. Old propane cylinders, Honda Civics, you get the idea.
So, one day my friends and I were taking a break from shooting when some locals drove up, and they unloaded an old lawnmower from the back of their pickup. They pushed the mower out to the berm, and brought out a pair of G-98 mausers. On the first shot to the case of the mower, a plume of smoke started to ooze out. That smoke kept coming out for the next 20 minutes.
Lots of energy in a rifle round.

[grimjaw]

Cesiumsponge, as requested.

http://grimjaw.net/images/1206.jpg

[Cesiumsponge]

They look pretty clean and mangled. For some reason I was expecting smaller pieces after being blown up but that's pretty doggone nonfunctional. Ever removed the neodymium magnets from a hard drive before? Good fun, utilitarian too.

I have a few 5-1/4" double high hard drives laying around in the basement and a 3-1/2" somewhere. I'll have to use them as targets next time I shoot on a friend's property. I doubt the range would approve shooting at old hard drives :o

[Eightball]

I got Knob Creek as my primary range. They allow anything--I was shooting an old computer tower last week :neener: . That, and an old lawnmower someone had left out there (hey, there was plenty more spaces where holes needed to be, if you get my drift ;) ). But, I had similar results to grimjaw's pics....only it was lots of little holes from bullets, instead of an ordnance disposal :( .

[Cesiumsponge]

Ahh well I'm envious. I've seen Knob Creek videos floating around and it looks like something to behold. All the ranges here that I'm aware of don't allow bringing your own stuff.

There are no public lands to shoot on here, not within a few hours of drive minimum that I am aware of. I was up in Port Angeles with a friend last time and I only had my shotgun with me at the time. The only thing remotely interesting around there was an abandoned and accessible military or civilian bunker/bombshelter of some sort :what: vandalized with racial slurs and an old abandoned car against a sand wall.

I'm curious on the penetration power of 2-3/4" 12ga rifled lead slugs on thicker stuff since it's just lead. I was using some Federal Vitalshok and it punched right through the car like hot butter and left some nice big holes on either side. It was my first time there so I didn't know what to expect. Next time I'll have to tote along a more diverse bag of targets and take some pictures :cool:

[blue86buick]

I once bought a piece of 1/4" "weldable steel" from Menards, to test the effects of various ammo on it. 22LR left a cute lil dimple, 7.62x39 punches clean through, .223 goes right through (likely just white box FMJ, may have been SS109 though), and some brand/weight of saboted HP from a .50 cal muzzleloader, over 150 grains of Pyrodex 777 went clean through, and actually so did a patched round ball. BUT, a Brenekke KO rifled slug didn't penetrate. It smacked that plate pretty good, and left a NIIICE big dimple, but didn't make it through.

[PAC 762]

FWIW, I had a similar discussion with a friend who just got back from Iraq. He stated the .50 BMG was needed to reliably stop a moving vehicle at a road block. The M240's did not seem to have much effect.

[Clean97GTI]

I know 147grn Czech Milsurp 7.62x54R will get into the cylinder (through one side and bounces off the other) of a block in a newer Chevy Tahoe.

You find all sorts of strange things in the NV desert.

Plain FMJ 9mm (WWB) will go through a steel wheel. Don't know if it would continue through the brake rotor or drum.

[GunGoBoom]

As funny as it sounds I have been told by people that are supposed to be in a position to know that if you load a typical 150 grain .30 cal bullet in backwards it has much greater penetrating properties on hardened targets. I've been reloading for years and have yet to try this one out. Has anyone here tried it or heard of it and if so what do you think? Reality or just another piece of gun nut urban folk lore?

I vote gun nut urban folk lore. First off, the shape of the tip as pointy rather than blunt increases penetration over a blunt tip. So you're spitting into the fan on that count. Second, the bullet will be flying unstable from the get-go, and begin to yaw immediately - and bullets hitting sideways don't make for good penetration. It's BS *IF* you're talking about spitzer or ball type bullets. BUT it could be true if you're talking about turning around a hollow point type bullet, made for expansion or fragmentation, assuming you could keep the bullet from destabilizing, which I doubt.

Guys, don't confuse *penetration through hard targets* with *penetration through soft targets* - different jobs requiring different tools - different ammo/bullet combos excel. You must distinguish between which of the two you're talking about - you can't just say penetration.

As for HARD targets, like punching through plate steel or body armor, velocity is king, followed by bullet shape in general (sectional density), and bullet shape at the front end in particular (pointiness), as well as bullet material and construction (the harder the better and the denser the better). The faster the better, and therefore the CLOSER the better, and therefore the .223 is better than the .308 for this purpose.

As for SOFT targets, like penetrating sand and fleshy substance, be it humans or elephants or whatever, or water, speed is not king - speed can be a detriment, to the extent that it causes yawing and bullet expansion, deformation, or shredding/separation, which is why .308 is said to penetrate (soft targets) best at 600 yards - that is true, because it's going slower, the bullet retains its shape. Sectional density becomes the most important factor, rather than speed, for penetration through this type of material. Bullet pointiness and bullet contruction also play a large part. Speed helps to a point - up to a sweet spot, then begins to hurt after the sweet spot rather than help. But as for which penetrates plate steel better - a .308 at 50 yards or a .308 at 500 yards - gotta be 50 yards. Sand is whole nuther story.

[RevDisk]

They stacked all ten drives in a metal ammo box. They fill a metal canister of a little over a foot in length and less than three inches in diameter with the equivalent of a .50 caliber BMG charge on one end (forgive me, the facts of the explosive used I didn't get). The rest of the canister was filled with tap water. I don't remember what they capped the end with. We walked down to the other side of the parking lot and they popped the charge. IIRC, there was only one hard drive that wasn't visibly damaged by impact, but it wouldn't start. The first couple of drives were *completely* demolished, leaving a hole as big as the size of the canister. I have the pic on one of my computers, let me know if you want me to dig it up.

Hydrostatic force. I've heard of it being used to crack safes without damaging the cash inside. Drill a hole in the top, fill with water, drop in a very small charge.

If the disks were classified, I don't think the last hard drive in question was properly destroyed. Have to check the platters to be sure. The manual on destruction of classified material specifically suggests borrowing a cutting torch from the motor pool. In combat, one is supposed to use thermite grenades. The point is to actually destroy the platters so the squiddies* can't get anything from them.


I worked with crypto for a bit. The place I worked was uhm, paranoid about proper destruction. Once I managed to talk EOD into using five bricks of C4 on a FOUO hard drive.


(*A squid is one type of device that reads very faint magnetic detections in objects. Supposedly can piece together a hard drive platter even if it's been overwritten a few times and the platter is crisply broken.)

[Marshall]

:what: This thread has come back from the dead.

[RevDisk]

This thread has come back from the dead.

Brains! err, .308!

[Farnham]

Once I managed to talk EOD into using five bricks of C4 on a FOUO hard drive.

HA! Now that's just cool. :D

[sumpnz]

Gas tanks usually can't explode if there isn't an ideal explosive mixture to promote explosion. You need a certain air-fuel ratio for ignition and explosion. Gas vapors or mist is what causes and explosion. If you shot a gas tank, it'd likely just pour out gas onto the ground from the bullet hole, which would then vaporize and burn, but no boom. A full gas tank is in less risk of explosion than an almost-empty one. As long there's some liquid fuel left and there's any amount of venting from the tank it is unlikely the tank would explode. Gasoline has a higher vapor pressure than atmospheric pressure, so typically any air that might get into the tank will get pushed out by the gas vapors. No oxygen, no boom.

As an aside, jet fuel (at least that used in commercial airlines) has a lower vapor pressure than the atmospheric pressure. Becuase of that, air can get trapped in the fuel tanks and mix with the vapors. This is probably why that Swiss Air (??) flight was able to blow up after leaving NY when it experienced a spark from an electrical short.

[cidirkona]

Might not take out an engine, but it'd take out a driver!

-Colin