CHL carrier kills man


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tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 10:47 AM
Houston guy with CHL shoots and kills someone when he bumps into him .. incredible


http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4670424.html

Houston & Texas News

March 28, 2007, 11:22PM
Man shot to death on Metro bus
Preacher also shot in his home, bringing 5-day homicide toll to 11

By ROBERT CROWE and MIKE GLENN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

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At least 11 slayings have occurred in Houston since Saturday, and the latest came Wednesday when a Metro bus passenger shot another passenger who had bumped into him, police said.

The victim and suspect apparently got into an argument while the suspect was trying to get off the bus in the 11700 block of Westheimer, Houston police said.

The suspect, who had a license to carry a concealed handgun, shot the other man in front of about 30 passengers at about 11:30 a.m., police said.

"Murder charges are pending, but we will present it to the district attorney, and it's likely that charges will be accepted," said Capt. Dale Brown of the Houston Police Department Homicide Division. "It's also possible it will be referred to a grand jury."

In another slaying on Wednesday, police said armed robbers entered a preacher's home in the 14500 block of Ameece and killed him.

Perry O'Neal, an itinerant preacher and carpenter who came to Houston after evacuating Beaumont during Hurricane Rita, was fatally shot at about 1:30 a.m.

"He was a beautiful person," said O'Neal's brother-in-law, Randolph Simpson. "He really believed in the (Holy) Spirit."

O'Neal and his wife, Annette, were sleeping when two men appeared in their bedroom, demanding cash and jewelry.

The suspects, whose faces were covered by red bandannas, forced O'Neal and his wife into the bathroom as they continued ransacking the house, police said.

O'Neal began struggling with the armed suspects when they forced him out of the bathroom. He was shot several times and pronounced dead at the scene, HPD investigators said.

Spike not unusual
HPD's Brown said the spike in homicides is "certainly an elevated rate and it's certainly higher" than the average of seven killings per week.

"But it's not unusual to have spikes," he said. "Sometimes it fluctuates from week to week."

The Harris County Medical Examiner's Office has confirmed 14 homicides — including six on Sunday — inside Houston city limits between Saturday and Wednesday, said spokeswoman Beverly Begay.

"I would agree it's a spike to see that many in those number of days," she said.

About four hours before O'Neal's death, Jose Saul Garcia, 26, was gunned down in his Nissan Sentra parked outside his apartment in the 6400 block of West Bellfort.

Garcia's 2-year-old daughter was in the back seat at the time, but she was not injured, police said.

One hour before Garcia's death, another 26-year-old man was fatally shot — in what police believe was an unrelated incident — nearby in the 10400 block of Sandpiper.

The victim in the bus shooting, a 30-year-old black man, and the suspect, a white man in his 20s, had not been identified Wednesday.

Houston police Capt. Dwayne Ready said there was no sign the shooting was racially motivated. "I don't know if they had an altercation prior to getting on the bus or whether the argument began on the bus."

The victim was pronounced dead at the scene. The alleged gunman was arrested and at least one passenger was taken to a hospital complaining of chest pains after the incident, which occurred on the 82 Westheimer route on Westheimer between Wilcrest and Kirkwood.

"This is a rare occurrence," said Metro Police Chief Tom Lambert.

He noted that Metro carries 330,000 passengers daily on 1,300 buses.

Metro crime statistics show there were no other killings on Metro vehicles in 2006 or 2007. There were 15 aggravated assaults between October 2005 and September 2006 on buses and at Metro facilities. There have been eight aggravated assaults reported between October and March.

When police arrived, paramedics were already on the bus and had the suspect's gun, police said.

The alleged shooter was "sitting in the back of the bus with his hands raised and was very compliant," Ready said. "He was then taken into custody without further incident."

Fluctuating numbers
Before the bus shooting, police had confirmed 81 slayings in 2007. The number is still down compared with the same period last year, when there were 90 slayings.

"Year to date, the numbers are still looking pretty good," Brown said.

Last year, the city averaged 35 slayings per month, but this year it has averaged less than 30 per month. Slayings were down in January and February compared with previous years. By Wednesday, however, slayings were on pace to meet or exceed the March 2006 numbers.

"Does this recent five-day period indicate we will see that rate continue?" Brown said. "It's too early to say because it fluctuates week by week."

Chronicle reporter Kevin Moran contributed to this report.

robert.crowe@chron.com; mike.glenn@chron.com

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hankdatank1362
March 30, 2007, 11:38 AM
Not enough info about the CCW incident to make an informed decision.

jlbraun
March 30, 2007, 11:40 AM
It made the news because it happens so rarely. CHL carriers are still orders of magnitude more law-abiding than the average citizen.

James T Thomas
March 30, 2007, 12:09 PM
The "anti's" will love it alright!

It supports the disconnected thought process.

-If he was not permitted to have a gun; he would not have had one to shoot with.

EllisWyatt
March 30, 2007, 12:13 PM
Why does the title of this thread have the word "murder" in it?

Limeyfellow
March 30, 2007, 12:15 PM
I don't know about that, the only people I hear making it an issue beyond an unfortante incident is the few people here who use it as a way to criticise antis.

wdlsguy
March 30, 2007, 12:20 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/4672366.html

March 29, 2007, 9:43PM
Man charged in fatal shooting aboard Metro bus

Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A 24-year-old man has been charged in Wednesday's fatal shooting of a man aboard a Metro bus in west Houston.

Garrett William Mallot has been charged with murder in the shooting death of Otis James Francis, 31, in the 11700 block of Westheimer.

Mallot is accused of shooting after Francis bumped into him while exiting the bus, police said.

The victim and suspect apparently argued, and the suspect, who had a license to carry a concealed handgun, shot the other man in front of about 30 passengers at about 11:30 a.m., police said.

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 12:24 PM
The witnesses on the bus claimed it was a verbal argument after one man bumped into the other.. A horrible incident which happens all too much (Not the CHL but the murder in a vehicle)..





EllisWyatt: murder n. # To kill (another human) unlawfully.
# To kill brutally or inhumanly.
# To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
# To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.

TexasRifleman
March 30, 2007, 12:27 PM
EllisWyatt: murder n. # To kill (another human) unlawfully.
# To kill brutally or inhumanly.
# To put an end to; destroy: murdered their chances.
# To spoil by ineptness; mutilate: a speech that murdered the English language.

Right, but the point is that we have guilty until proven innocent here in this thread.



He has not been convicted of unlawfully killing anyone yet.

Therefore, there has been no murder at this point.

hagar
March 30, 2007, 12:33 PM
I think the newspaper is deliberately telling only part of the story. Here is my take on the story.

CCW holder is on bus, minding his own business. Get's bumped by another passenger, who then loudly proclaims "get your honkey &**&^ out of my way". CCW holder goes "well excuse me for being in your way" and get's a "you want a &^^ whipping for dissing me? See this here knife? I'm gonna cut your &*&*".

Don't come to a gunfight with a knife. I'll bet money that something similar to this happened. And I will bet more money that the ccw holder had no criminal record (kind of obvious, since he had a ccw), and the other guy had a lengthy one, including probably assault and battery. And then the newspapers play it out as a bumping that turned into a shooting, not a threat against his life that turned into a shooting.

A friend of mine in AZ shot a drugged up young punk that jumped over his fence at 3am on a Sunday morning, kicked his rear patio door in, refused to leave, and even after he bashed him in the head with the shotgun butt, got up again and again, all the time threatening to kill him. When he saw that the guy was nuts and it was going to be a fight to the death, he shot and killed him. The police arrived one minute later, his wife was on the phone the whole time. The punk was evicted from a party one block over by the police, but instead of locking him up for the night, let him go even after he threatened that he was going back to "get them". He mistakenly picked my friend's house instead, and at age 22 he already had a lengthy record for drug dealing, car theft, burglary et al. Guess what the newspapers reported?

Young man slain for inadvertently trespassing.

El Tejon
March 30, 2007, 12:39 PM
The media gets everything wrong. I would bet that this report is incorrect by factual omission.

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 12:43 PM
A friend of mine in AZ shot a drugged up young punk that jumped over his fence at 3am on a Sunday morning, bashed his rear patio door in, refused to leave, and even after he bashed him in the head with the shotgun butt, got up again and again, all the time threatening to kill him. When he saw that the guy was nuts and it was going to be a fight to the death, he shot and killed him. The police arrived one minute later, his wife was on the phone the whole time. The punk was evicted from a party one block over by the police, but instead of locking him up for the night, let him go even after he threatened that he was going back to "get them". He mistakenly picked my friend's house instead, and at age 22 he already had a lengthy record for drug dealing, car theft, burglary et al. Guess what the newspapers reported?



Completely different circumstance.. He killed a man on a public bus with at least 30 witnesses .. Your friend didn't have murder charges against him I assume ..The news in TX isn't as one sided as some states .. I hope this young man gets what he deserves ..

I was asking myself "I wonder how long until the whole news bashing starts" :banghead:

I find it bizarre that it seems everyone is sticking up for him because he was a CHL carrier ..


John List was a law abiding handgun carrier (So it seemed) .. I suppose the media blew that out of proportion

EllisWyatt
March 30, 2007, 12:46 PM
He has not been convicted of unlawfully killing anyone yet.

Therefore, there has been no murder at this point.


Thank you. I also note that murderers do not typically hand their murder weapons over to EMTs and quietly wait for police to arrive to arrest them for murder.

Murder means malice, and there is nothing in this newspaper article to imply malice, nor has the man been convicted, and I rather doubt the original poster has special inside knowledge that the rest of us lack.

EllisWyatt
March 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
He killed a man on a public bus with at least 30 witnesses .. Your friend didn't have murder charges against him I assume
...
I find it bizarre that it seems everyone is sticking up for him because he was a CHL carrier ..


Perhaps we're just pointing out that not all the facts are in, and the man's behavior is not that of your typical murderer.

Have you ever been on a public bus when two passengers get into an argument? Everyone else on the bus does their best to look somewhere -- anywhere -- else. I find it highly unlikely anyone on the bus actually saw much of what happened, except for "OH MY GOD GUNSHOTS!"

Ask Massad Ayoob his opinion on eye witnesses.

Murder charges are not at all unusual in self defense shootings. It's easier for police to drop charges later than to explain to the news media why the shooter "was released to roam the streets with an itchy trigger finger."

romma
March 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
Mods, I would suggest this title gets modified. Based on not having enough info..

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 12:53 PM
Garrett William Mallot has been charged with murder in the shooting death of Otis James Francis, 31, in the 11700 block of Westheimer.

Close enough .. I forgot about the whole "Thats not PC!!" crowed .. He is charged with murder.. 30 witnesses .. Weapon in custody .. Sitting in jail .. Good enough for me .. Hope he gets whats coming to him .. I wouldn't mind my streets being a little less full of hot-heads ..

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 12:58 PM
Murder charges are not at all unusual in self defense shootings. Easier to drop charges later than to explain to the news media why the shooter "was released to roam the streets with an itchy trigger finger."

Well thank God it was in Texas where that liberal mentality of never blaming the criminals isn't too prevalent.. I don't mean to sound rude but I cannot tell you how many times I have heard (In Houston) another man shot in road rage .. I have personally had friends harmed because of the insane drivers here in this city .. It is a horrible experience no matter what .. I hope he gets what he deserves .. I am tired of the mentality of never holding the criminals accountable ..

TexasRifleman
March 30, 2007, 01:02 PM
I find it bizarre that it seems everyone is sticking up for him because he was a CHL carrier ..

Maybe you need to pay more attention.

You will find that we stick up for lots of people THAT HAVE NOT HAD A TRIAL OR BEEN CONVICTED OF ANYTHING YET.

And you certainly won't be shocked that we question whether or not the press is reporting all the facts accurately.

But hey, just minor inconveniences to you apparantly.

Rev. DeadCorpse
March 30, 2007, 01:03 PM
Withholding judgment until we hear "the rest of the story".

romma
March 30, 2007, 01:04 PM
Just because he's charged, doesn't mean he's guilty!

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 01:22 PM
I pm'd a mod and asked them to change the title .. See guys now he killed a man .. MUCH better!! But you know .. we didn't technically check his pulse so he really may not be dead (We may have to change the title again) .. It could be made up by the newspaper .. :scrutiny:

mbt2001
March 30, 2007, 01:50 PM
The news in TX isn't as one sided as some states .. I hope this young man gets what he deserves ..

First off, the Houston Chronicle is ANTI-GUN. Big time. So the news in Texas is just like the news everywhere else. Hagar was perfectly accurate in what he said.

As far as the charges, the District attorney is a jerk. He files charges on everyone he can.

Gets what he deserves??? You don't know what that is buddy. He may not be guilty at all. Questionable shoot, maybe. But guilty of "murder"? I dunno yet and neither do you. Having a clean record and a good reputation should mean something. Having a record full of priors and a bad reputation should also mean something.

I am tired of the mentality of never holding the criminals accountable.

Everyone is. In this case, the criminal might very well have been the person that was shot.... You need to keep that in mind before you start screaming for someones head.

TexasRifleman
March 30, 2007, 01:54 PM
As far as the charges, the District attorney is a jerk. He files charges on everyone he can.

The Texas ACLU and Texas State Rifle Association have learned that he continues to advise LE to arrest and ignore new legislation around handguns in cars (non CHL holders).

More here if you care.....pdf file, not a webpage FYI

http://tsra.com/docs/AboveTheLaw.pdf

ArfinGreebly
March 30, 2007, 03:00 PM
Need more facts.

Media is not helping on this one.

romma
March 30, 2007, 03:04 PM
It could be made up by the newspaper .. I wouldn't put it past them... :rolleyes:

asiparks
March 30, 2007, 03:14 PM
Brush it off as a questionable shoot ? C'mon now, a man is dead for getting into a verbal altercation. If I shot everyone who got in my face I'd have been rightly banged away a long time ago. And because the other guy is black some of you are making up whole story lines in your head about what happened and how he probably has a criminal record,a lengthy one, including probably assault and battery Sad. Really sad.:barf:

MrPeter
March 30, 2007, 03:16 PM
A friend of mine in AZ shot a drugged up young punk that jumped over his fence at 3am on a Sunday morning, kicked his rear patio door in, refused to leave, and even after he bashed him in the head with the shotgun butt, got up again and again, all the time threatening to kill him. When he saw that the guy was nuts and it was going to be a fight to the death, he shot and killed him. The police arrived one minute later, his wife was on the phone the whole time. The punk was evicted from a party one block over by the police, but instead of locking him up for the night, let him go even after he threatened that he was going back to "get them". He mistakenly picked my friend's house instead, and at age 22 he already had a lengthy record for drug dealing, car theft, burglary et al. Guess what the newspapers reported?

Young man slain for inadvertently trespassing.

This story made me sick to my stomach. The media makes me sick. Hopefully the jury will be more fair than the newspaper that reported this.

Sharps-shooter
March 30, 2007, 03:17 PM
When I first read this, the first thing I thought of was not "is he guilty of murder", or "was the shooting racially motivated", or even "what will this mean for public opinion on concealed carry," but this:

"How on earth do you get a clear shot on a bus with thirty people?"

The fact that he managed not to put the bullet through the person who bumped into him and into someone else, is pretty neat really. Anybody know what caliber he was using? I haven't seen much discussion of what's a good round to use in a crowd, unless it was a .22 (one of the deadliest cop-killer bullets ever invented).

carterbeauford
March 30, 2007, 03:25 PM
Wow, people who shoot other people for bumping into them are why I carry. How painfully redundant :scrutiny:

PotatoJudge
March 30, 2007, 03:27 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4675545.html

More on the story.

migoi
March 30, 2007, 03:29 PM
most of us, myself included, distain the .22LR cartrigde for self-defense, the last two people who died of gunshot wounds in Hawaii were shot with .22LR firearms.

One was an off duty deputy stopping a robbery at a bar (other workers then subdued the robber) and the other was a home invader that ended up downed by the home occupant with a .22 rifle.

A case a couple of years ago... two opposing gangs of gambling parlor (illegal) security thugs shot it out in a golf course parking lot. More than one dead..only .380 acp and .22 lr firearms were used.

Seems a .22LR is better than a sharp stick.

migoi

frostbiker
March 30, 2007, 03:48 PM
Heard the lunchtime news on the local ABC channel. They're decidedly more 2a/gun friendly than the others (used to have a dedicated, full-time hunting reporter).

Anywho, the talking heads reported that a grand jury 'may' convene in this case, but no one know for sure. As of now, he is charged with 'murder' in the shooting. The facts as they have it now: the victim and CHL were riding the bus together. Victim or CHL bumps the other and a verbal altercation starts. News reports state the victim pulled a knife, and the CHL shot in self-defense. The CHL was arrested shortly afterwards.

This guy may have thought he was in the right and decided to stick around. He didn't run when the police came, so that says something right there. That he was arrested confirms that Houston has a crummy DA's office.

I know the neighborhood where the shooting occured. It is in the Westchase district. That particular intersection and surrounding area is not a place I travel socially, but I used to work at a bank branch nearby. High gang activity, crime, drugs, the whole gamut of bad things happening in one geographic locale. Lots of clubs on Westheimer and at the tail end of the Richmond Strip. Shootings happen there almost every weekend. Definitely an area where you tread lightly. Just my .02 cents worth.

Just talked to a local PD. He is not directly familiar with the case, but has heard of it through local donut munching sessions. No one is saying much outside of the court system and press. Until ALL the witness statements are processed and corroborated, we may not know much more for some time. Nobody knows for sure if the victim pulled a knife or not, and no one's talking about it.

LiquidTension
March 30, 2007, 03:59 PM
Anybody have any more info about the knife?

PotatoJudge
March 30, 2007, 04:00 PM
Prosecutors said Garrett Mallot first pulled a knife, then a .357-caliber Magnum pistol during the dispute with Otis James Francis

From the Chronicle article I linked to. Frostbiker's account makes much more sense (who pulls a knife, then puts it away to pull their gun?).

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 04:05 PM
"That guy said he was going to kick my ass," Mallot told authorities. He told police he then pulled a knife and Francis repeated the threat.


Wow .. if he really said that .. he is dumber than what I thought .. That shows that he KNEW Francis was not threatening his life .. What an idiot .. He should have remained silent .. That statement will haunt him .. He pulled a knife then stopped and pulled a gun .. shows that it took more than a split second action due to his life being threatened .. Very bad situation ..

Matt Dillon
March 30, 2007, 04:06 PM
If it appears in the Houston Chronicle, DON'T BELIEVE IT!

frostbiker
March 30, 2007, 04:11 PM
Having been a LOOONNNGGGG DISTANT PAST customer of Metro, I know what the bus layout is like. It is pretty tight confines standing in the aisle. If these two guys were bowing up to each other and in each other's face, I can only assume that the other 20+ witnesses may or may not have had direct line of sight to the alleged knife. We're going to see a lot of conflicting reports on this.

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 04:12 PM
I have not yet seen it published that the VICTIM had a knife .. I saw someone wrote it .. but no link to eye witness report or anything .. From what I read the SUSPECT pulled the knife and gun ..

Caimlas
March 30, 2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the update, Frostbiker!

I now feel comfortable making the personal assessment that this man is obviously innocient of murder: bad reporting, bad DA.

Rev. DeadCorpse
March 30, 2007, 05:59 PM
News reports state the victim pulled a knife, and the CHL shot in self-defense.

That certainly would change things a bit... :banghead:

bumm
March 30, 2007, 06:01 PM
Whether the guy is guilty or not, the paper made a point of saying that he's a CHL holder. Did they make a point of saying that the home invaders who murdered the preacher weren't? Let me go back and look...
Marty

Mannlicher
March 30, 2007, 06:02 PM
so tnieto2004 , whats your point here?

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 06:03 PM
Please show where it said the victim had a knife .. I have searched for a long time .. still haven't even seen that it was SPECULATED that the victim had a knife ..


My point .. I guess you can sum it up to incidents like this are horrible for us who wish to carry guns .. It is a shame that someone with that great responsibility makes such poor decisions..

Whats the point to post's that you make? discussion ..

PotatoJudge
March 30, 2007, 06:05 PM
"A gang of beardless not-overweight nor abnormally short men murdered and robbed a preacher, who was not blonde."
Okay, I exaggerate. :D

Nah, it doesn't bother me that they didn't mention that the robbers were unliscensed, nor that the Metro shooter was.

Cesiumsponge
March 30, 2007, 06:23 PM
Funny how 30 witnesses suddenly dropped to 20.

While I would like to think all CHL carrying persons are sensible, law-abiding citizens, but I won't deny there are hotheads out there without criminal records that do carry CHLs and might pull a stunt like this. No demographic is free from idiots like this regardless of how many background checks are done.

PrimaryB
March 30, 2007, 06:46 PM
Just reported buy the Give It Up Daily. Poodle dog attacks and kills middle aged man who was innocently walking down the street. The owner of the dog reportedly did have a permit for such a vicious dog..............yada yada. Damn, why do they always have to mention the breed and instead use the word dog? We all know poodles trained in the right hands can be trusted, therefor the "poodle" oops I meant the "dog" must be innocent. Besides the guy did have a permit. :banghead:

Geister
March 30, 2007, 06:48 PM
And because the other guy is black some of you are making up whole story lines in your head about what happened and how he probably has a criminal record

ANYONE in Houston who's going to start an argument because he got accidentally bumped into is more than likely going to have a criminal record. Hot headed people tend to have more brushes with the law. Add to the fact the crappy neighborhood they were in and yes, I'd imagine the victim probably had a record.

Do I think the shooting was legally justified? No. The victim threatened to fight the guy, who had a knife with him. If the victim attacked the guy, he could have easily defended himself with a knife while perhaps keeping a hand on his gun.

But the victim here really did not do anything to end the conflict. He started the conflict and continued the conflict.

HOWEVER, if the victim DID pull a knife on the CHL holder who shot him, then I don't see a crime being committed. In that case I think the guy was 100% justified in the shooting, with the only mistake being that he got on the bus in Houston.

There's no way in Hell I'll ever ride the bus in Houston. I don't even like being in Houston.

Jeff White
March 30, 2007, 07:07 PM
Ahh the Brotherhood of the CCW Badge closes ranks to protect one of their own. :uhoh: This guy is obviously an example of why no one should be allowed to CCW. CCW holders are all petty little tyrants who carry guns to prove their manhood to themselves. :rolleyes: :evil:

Where is the rush to judgment we usually see when a police shooting is reported here? Where are the blanket condemnations? Where are the comments like I posted above?

Come on, I want to know. Things are a little different when the shoe is on the other foot.

I see an awful lot of what would be called closing ranks and the thin blue line protecting it's own comments if they we posted by a cop who was a member here in a thread on a police shooting.

Wait for facts??? HA, The news media has it wrong? HA...Those aren't excuses when a thread about a police shooting is posted. The media is never biased and gets all of the facts straight then.....

Just something for you to think about while you close ranks to protect CCW from a political onslaught.....

Jeff

tnieto2004
March 30, 2007, 07:17 PM
Wait for facts??? HA, The news media has it wrong? HA...Those aren't excuses when a thread about a police shooting is posted. The media is never biased and gets all of the facts straight then.....

Exactly .. I never quite got that .. I was hoping I wasn't the only one who felt this ..

txgho1911
March 30, 2007, 07:50 PM
Houston has not changed so much in the last 7 years.
The only truth you can count on from that source is the two names and who shot who. Maybe. Leaves everything else to everyones imagination.

PrimaryB
March 30, 2007, 09:16 PM
Isn't the purpose of owning a CCW or whatever your state designates, an earned responsibility and not a right? "Purpose" perhaps isn't the right term, maybe, "a person who has exhibited good proven social skills and has been thoroughly trained in the use of a firearm, the definition of self defense and you meet your states required classes". It doesn't mean you are allowed to make up for your lack of manhood because you carry and allowed to use your firearm.

razorburn
March 30, 2007, 10:24 PM
No, that's not true. Only certain people are given the benefit of the doubt. People seem to have characterizations of what they think the "typical" bad guy is like, and anyone who fits that gets blasted here while others who fit the good guy characterization are given extreme leniency. The evidence be damned. It's all liberal media commies hitler devil worshipping young punks controlling the media anyway. Same as the antis, I suppose. He's a gun owner? He must be guilty!

lacoochee
March 30, 2007, 10:49 PM
It's a shame he isn't a cop, he could claim he thought the guy was holding a gun...oops it was just his wallet. Desk duty for 13 days, damn.:evil:

Really, looks like a bad shoot, but there are other factors, size disparity being one, maybe our shooter was a skinny dwarf with a bum leg. Whatever, there aren't enough facts here, wait 'til you actually see they guys statement and the witness testimony from the bus. If he was in the right and he gets a good lawyer he will be free otherwise he will get what he deserves.

MechAg94
March 30, 2007, 11:26 PM
It doesn't take two start a confrontation like this. Only one idiot. There are several scenarios that could lead up to it.

Generally, a CHL holder in Texas will have a clean record and is very unlikely to be a criminal type based on raw statistics. That is a good reason to give the benefit of the doubt before rushing to judgement. LEO's deserve that also. That is why I usually condition my comments with "..if the facts are true..." or something like that. :) I always figured it was assumed that any comments are based on the facts as presented.

I heard about this on the radio but didn't pick up on what they were talking about. They said a knife was pulled and then a gun, then the shoot. I don't remember who had the knife.

MechAg94
March 30, 2007, 11:31 PM
One other thing: Deadly force is allowed in Texas for threat to life or serious bodily injury. There is case law in Texas that says fists can cause serious bodiy injury. There was a case in Dallas early on where a guy was getting snot beat out of him and pulled out his gun and killed his attacker. It went to trial and the guy got off.

How this applies to this case I don't know. It depends on how the confrontation went down.

Professor K
March 30, 2007, 11:33 PM
The media didnt blow out of proportion that he was a CCW holder. They just mentioned it once, matter of factly. At least that's what all the articles on the first page do.

It's a shame, but sh*t happens....

I guess you could argue if more of the passengers were armed, this could have been prevented. Don't know....

MechAg94
March 30, 2007, 11:39 PM
.. I don't mean to sound rude but I cannot tell you how many times I have heard (In Houston) another man shot in road rage .. I have personally had friends harmed because of the insane drivers here in this city .. It is a horrible experience no matter what ..

I never hear about that stuff and I listen to local radio almost every day. I can remember a few incidents over years. Driving in Houston traffic is a bit of an adventure but I don't think shoot outs due to road rage are as common as you imply. Driving may be safer than taking the bus though. :)

How were your friends harmed by the way? Just curious. I got bumped from behind twice in 2 years of commuting to the Galleria area (no damage), but I have been in and around Houston for 10 years and never had a wreck in that time. I have been pissed at other drivers and had them pissed at me. Keeping gestures to myself normally prevents that. :D

MechAg94
March 30, 2007, 11:41 PM
I hadn't heard that Professor. Sounds like there might be a lot of follow up information needed on this one.

Professor K
March 30, 2007, 11:42 PM
Actually, wait, I'm wrong, the preacher was another guy from the same article.

romma
March 31, 2007, 12:13 AM
Just something for you to think about while you close ranks to protect CCW from a political onslaught..... A rather "snarky" statement considering this is The High Road...I think Mr CCW should get some benefit of the doubt. I have seen CCW holders here speak out against bad shoots by CCW holders.

PotatoJudge
March 31, 2007, 02:00 AM
Jeff, I think part of the difference is that the blue wall has an effect. We can get on here and hold all CCW holders in the highest esteem and talk about how they always do the right thing and defend their actions or make excuses for them, but if anything happens they're subject to the same treatment as any other suspect. On the other hand, if a LEO does something and gets bashed on here, right or wrong, it won't effect his special treatment in the eyes of the law. For example, when police misuse authority who do they answer to? Other cops that turn a blind eye? A Captain that doesn't want to look bad for having criminals working under him? A DA that's poker buddies with the chief of police? A mayor that's as power hungry and corrupt as the worst of the cops he's supposed to oversee? A union with it's own political interests? What about when the same treatment gets spread around; cops kid with DUI or MIP, name dropping to get out of a ticket. Cops already have plenty of people in positions of power scrambling to defend them at every turn, a CHL holder does not. All they have is expensive lawyers.

This doesn't even take into account the reporting biases.

I heard something on the radio this morning and I think it applies pretty well. It was about the natural propensity of good, sane people to become sadistic when given total power over others. Given partial control, you can extrapolate. It was called the Lucifer Effect or something. The idea is that maybe it's not a few bad apples, but a bad barrel into which good apples are placed. No doubt there are systemic problems that are responsible for many of the recurrent events that turn people on LEOs. In the end it's still the individual's responsibility. At least that's what the Stanford guy said.

I can understand how this sort of thing gets to you. You're probably a very good cop and have dealt with this stuff most of your career. It's probably worse coming from people you volunteer for and have things in common with. It probably doesn't help when we say we're not talking about you, just the "bad ones." You probably are more reserved in closing "bad cop" threads because of the perception of your motivations, even if they're not constructive, are less than civil, and off-topic.

Unfortunately, the second is about protection from our government, and cops are the front line of enforcing the government's laws. Bad government=bad cops, and when no-knock raids and the like are performed it's mostly cops that take the heat. They're partly to blame, no doubt, but we tend to forget about the people that approve and encourage these sorts of things (think "bad barrel").

Yeah, your comments did come off as snarky (not that I blame you). Might be better to make the same points in a more palatable manner. You catch more flies with honey, and all that.

I don't know how tired you get of it all, but I hope your skin is thick enough to keep up the good work here and on the streets.

It's pretty late here, hope this all makes sense.

Anybody found a good source on who pulled the knife? It makes all the difference here.

tnieto2004
March 31, 2007, 02:04 AM
MechAg- http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4670424.html

There are some statistic there .. Last week between Saturday and Wednesday there were 14 killings (Dunno how many involved being in their vehicles.. You could look that up if you are still wondering).. Thats quite a bit for me dunno about you ..I also recently talked to a few police officers at a firearm store and they confirmed that there was a recent increase .. Do a few searches and you will find many incidents

The Harris County Medical Examiner's Office has confirmed 14 homicides — including six on Sunday — inside Houston city limits between Saturday and Wednesday, said spokeswoman Beverly Begay.

"I would agree it's a spike to see that many in those number of days," she said.

About four hours before O'Neal's death, Jose Saul Garcia, 26, was gunned down in his Nissan Sentra parked outside his apartment in the 6400 block of West Bellfort.

Garcia's 2-year-old daughter was in the back seat at the time, but she was not injured, police said.

One hour before Garcia's death, another 26-year-old man was fatally shot — in what police believe was an unrelated incident — nearby in the 10400 block of Sandpiper.

tnieto2004
March 31, 2007, 02:11 AM
Anybody found a good source on who pulled the knife? It makes all the difference here.

I have still yet to see ANY published article (or local news report ) stating the victim had a knife .. No one seems to have even seen that accusation .. ALL I have seen is that the suspect first grabbed his knife .. Then his gun .. Never have I read the victim had a knife .. If someone has found a source saying the victim had the knife please show ..

XavierBreath
March 31, 2007, 05:26 AM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/chronicle/4668543.html

I have noticed the blade is no longer mentioned.........

Man fatally shot aboard Metro bus in west Houston


By KEVIN MORAN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

A man was shot to death today on a Metropolitan Transit Authority bus in west Houston after he apparently got into an argument with a man he may have touched or bumped while trying to get off the bus.

The alleged gunman was in custody and a passenger was taken to a hospital complaining of chest pains after the incident, which occurred about 11:30 a.m. on the 82 Westheimer route on Westheimer between Wilcrest and Kirkwood, said Metro spokeswoman Rosio Torres.

The victim appeared to be in his late 20s or early 30s, according to Houston Police Department Capt. Dwayne Ready. When HPD arrived, the paramedics were already on the bus and had the suspect's gun. The alleged shooter was "sitting in the back of the bus with his hands raised and was very compliant, '' he said. "He was then taken into custody without further incident.''

Ready said the shooting may have occurred after the victim was walking down the aisle and either touched or bumped the suspect, who was already seated. The two exchanged angry words before the suspect allegedly pulled out a gun and shot the victim.

The victim then staggered to the front of the bus before he collapsed. More than an hour later, his body was still visible hanging feet first out of the bus door.

Authorities estimate some 30 people were on the bus. "This is a rare occurrence,'' said Metro Police Chief Tom Lambert. He noted that Metro carries 330,000 passengers daily on 1,300 buses.

Homicide detectives arrived at the scene shortly after 1:30 p.m. Some witnesses were taken in a separate bus to give statements to police.

No names had yet been released.


Correction.......here's the knife (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4676729.html). Escalation of force?

Knife threat revealed in bus shooting


By BRIAN ROGERS
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

More details were released Friday in state district court concerning the 24-year-old man accused of fatally shooting another passenger during an argument on a Metro bus.

Prosecutors at a probable cause hearing said Garrett Mallot first pulled a knife, then a .357-caliber Magnum pistol during the dispute with Otis James Francis, 31, as the two rode a Metro bus in the 11700 block of Westheimer around 11:45 a.m. on Wednesday.

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Katherine McDaniel said Friday that Mallot was getting on the bus and the two began arguing after Francis brushed Mallot's arm.

"That guy said he was going to kick my ass," Mallot told authorities. He told police he then pulled a knife and Francis repeated the threat.

Mallot, who had a license to carry a concealed handgun, then shot Francis in front of more than 20 passengers, McDaniel said.

Francis rushed to the front of the bus, where he collapsed and died, McDaniel said.

If convicted, Mallot faces a punishment range of five to 99 years or life in prison. Mallot's attorney, Alvin Nunnery, was not immediately available for comment.


More, with witness statements to the media:

05:20 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 28, 2007

By Jason Whitely / KHOU 11 News

Man shot, killed on Metro bus

City bus riders heading in to Houston witnessed the unthinkable. “We saw this big light and this big pop. My ears are still ringing,” said Gwen Guidry.

She’s a nurse who was on her way to work at Methodist Hospital.

Police say they think a young white man, who just boarded, gunned down a fellow rider.

“The suspect was on his making his way through the center aisle when he brushed up against the victim,” said Captain Dwayne Ready with the Houston Police Department.

“The guy bumped him,” said Effrom Mooring who was on the bus. “They exchanged words. The guy pulled out a gun and shot him. Just for bumping him.”

The victim, who was shot once in the chest, was an older African-American man.

Troy Andrews’ wife was on the bus. “He was gasping for air and there’s no way she (Gwen Guidry) could help him.”

The victim walked to the front of the bus and collapsed before dying in the doorway.

“I tried to revive him. I did what I could. But it wasn’t happening,” said Guidry.

Witnesses say the victim bumped the suspect and the two argued near the middle of the bus before the shooting.
The shooting happened about 11:45 Wednesday morning on Metro bus 3269 in west Houston.

“Everybody started ducking and hollering. He just put the gun back in his pants and politely walked to the back of the bus and sat down,” said Andrews.

Capt. Ready says they had no problem arresting the gunman. “The suspect at the time when officers arrived was at the back of the bus with his hands up and was taken into custody without further incident.”

“It’s crazy man. I don’t know why you shoot somebody because they bumped you. Say excuse me and that’ll be it. There’s no reason to kill anybody,” said Mooring.

None of the other 12 passengers on the bus was hurt.

Some did complain of chest pains and anxiety from bearing witness to a crime they can’t comprehend.

Many consider this a murder on Metro over something so insignificant.

The names of the suspect and victim have not been released.

Did race play a role seeing as the suspect is a young white man and the victim was an older black man?

HPD says it doesn’t think so from the words that were exchanged although they haven’t released the conversation publicly.

rhubarb
March 31, 2007, 08:47 AM
The first shooting by a Texas CHL holder was in Houston. The shooter killed an unarmed man who was beating him senseless. The shooter walked.

Not that this is a parallel case, just saying . . .

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2007, 10:55 AM
No, that is incorrect. You are referring to the same incident MechAg94 referred to about fists. The first shooting death directly involving a licensee occurred only 52 days into the new program in Dallas.

On Feb. 21, 1996, Gordon Hale III, 42, a welding equipment repairman and scrawny little guy, was involved in a minor traffic accident in Dallas that shattered the side mirror of a delivery van. The men in the delivery van (actually, just the driver) chased Hale through traffic. While stopped/trapped in traffic, witnesses told police, van driver Kenny Tavai, 33 and a large Samoan, walked to Hale's pickup and started punching him in the shoulders, face, and general head areas as he sat behind the wheel, trapped by traffic and his seatbelt.

Hale used restraint even though several facial bones were broken already and he had a damaged left eye that was never to heal properly. Then Tavai, who apparently was not happy with beating Hale repeatedly the first time, turned around and went back to beat Hale again. As he reached into the truck, Hale produced handgun and killed Tavai with a single shot to the chest. Just one shot. Nothing more. Hale was charged with murder, but a grand jury refused to indict him and the charges were dropped.

This was a great case and an excellent example of lethal force being used in the 'face' of overwhelming power. Hale's face was a bloodly mess after the fist assault and all of the conditions for use of lethal force were not only feared, but realized. Hale suffered significant and potentially life threatening injuries as a result of the beating by Tavai. Note that Hale shot Tavai when Tavai returned to administer more punishment. Hale did very well.

Some of the best information from the case came from Tavai's associate in the truck who stated that he did not understand why Tavai was so upset, why Tavai found a need to beat Hale, or why Tavai returned to Hale's vehicle to try to beat him again.

Contrary to rhubarb, the shooter didn't exactly walk. He was arrested and things went to the grand jury where he was no-billed, but at considerable expense to Hale, most of which, I understand, was picked up by the NRA as it was a landmark case in Texas. The media scrutiny on Hale was hugely stressful. The really sad part was that Hale felt guilty about the whole thing and said that if he had to do it over again, he would not have shot. This, from a man who had several bones broken in his face and loss of vision in his left eye as a result of the beatings.

Sharps-shooter
March 31, 2007, 11:48 AM
I reckon that as more and more people get CHL or CCW permits, that the purported big difference in character and law-abidingness between them and the general population will shrink. At least where I am, the permits are a lot harder to get than they used to be.

When I was growing up, I think you had to get deputized by the sherrif to get one. Now you can get one unless you've got some sort of a record, and i even know one guy who, in spite of having been in jail for domestic vioence (which supposedly prevents one from even owning a gun in this state), managed to get a CCW permit.

Of course, the sherrif in the town where I grew up did beat his wife and kids from time to time, too. But that's neither here nor there.

rhubarb
March 31, 2007, 12:12 PM
Dallas. I was wrong. I knew it was one of them big cities up north.:)

Even if Hale had gone to trial and had been found not guilty, I would say he walked. It would be a good outcome even if it wasn't the best.

The best outcome is achieved by avoiding or evading confrontations.

Art Eatman
March 31, 2007, 12:33 PM
Three witnesses to a car wreck = five different versions about what happened. Doesn't seem different, here. And the way some of these reporters write about what they think they heard, you'd think they flunked remedial ESL.

Speculation. :barf:

Art

BHPshooter
March 31, 2007, 03:37 PM
We are NOT getting the whole story.

This...
“Everybody started ducking and hollering. He just put the gun back in his pants and politely walked to the back of the bus and sat down,” said Andrews.

...Displays actions that are incongruent with this.
“It’s crazy man. I don’t know why you shoot somebody because they bumped you. Say excuse me and that’ll be it. There’s no reason to kill anybody,” said Mooring.

People who "just shoot people" don't surrender their gun and wait for the police with their hands raised.

There's an essential gap between the two quotes that we're missing.

Wes

Geister
March 31, 2007, 03:51 PM
Contrary to rhubarb, the shooter didn't exactly walk. He was arrested and things went to the grand jury where he was no-billed, but at considerable expense to Hale, most of which, I understand, was picked up by the NRA as it was a landmark case in Texas. The media scrutiny on Hale was hugely stressful. The really sad part was that Hale felt guilty about the whole thing and said that if he had to do it over again, he would not have shot. This, from a man who had several bones broken in his face and loss of vision in his left eye as a result of the beatings.

If he had the gun within grasp to begin with, he wouldn't have had a beating and he probably would have been able to diffuse the situation without shooting.

Too many CHL holders worry more about being scot-free with the law than protecting themselves, especially this guy. If your life is in danger, SHOOT. Don't hesitate worrying about what a grand jury might think. If you know that the shooting is justified and you fear for your life, then SHOOT. Hale shouldn't be guily about a damn thing; he should be ashamed that he didn't get the gun out earlier.

This newspaper article is quoting too many witnesses opinions as facts. Mooring probably didn't even witness the entire thing.

spooney
March 31, 2007, 05:10 PM
We are now down to 13 witnesses, 12 passengers and the driver, just wanted to point that out. Anyways there is no real way to tell what went on with this one.

Double Naught Spy
March 31, 2007, 05:27 PM
You obviously are not familiar with the Hale-Tavai incident. The gun was within reach, under a jacket on the passenger seat. Hale stated he thought Tavai was simply going to demand insurance paperwork or yell at him. Instead, Tavai threw the first punch, fracturing bone around the left eye and damaging Hale's vision, then continued to pound on him as Hale did what he could to cover up.

Hale felt guilty because he really did not want to kill Tavai. He just wanted to not be beaten again as he knew he was seriously injured. Suggesting that he should feel shame for not producing his gun sooner is naive.

Getting back to the Houston incident, Mallot pulled a knife, then a gun, then fired? Y'all are right. We aren't getting the whole story. Of course, the fact that the number of people on the bus changes from 30 to 12 to 20 is interesting in and of itself.

hagar
March 31, 2007, 06:19 PM
How did I call this story about 100%? And as the truth will come out, it will prove that the dead person was the one that pulled the knife. Anybody pulls a knife on me, one of us is going to die. The ccw holder did nothing but defend his life against an aggressive anti-social character threatening him with bodily harm first, and then a knife.

I'll take another SWAG at the dead person. Katrina survivor.

TexasRifleman
March 31, 2007, 06:50 PM
I'll take another SWAG at the dead person. Katrina survivor.

I'd almost guarantee it. Katricians as our friend Kinky called them.

(Don't start with the race crap, there's just as many caucasian Katricians as any other race)

XavierBreath
March 31, 2007, 08:06 PM
And as the truth will come out, it will prove that the dead person was the one that pulled the knife......The ccw holder did nothing but defend his life against an aggressive anti-social character threatening him with bodily harm first, and then a knife.
The prosecution is stating the CHL holder pulled the knife. (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4676729.html) Chances are, the prosecution has more facts at their disposal than any member of this forum. While it would be convenient if the deceased had pulled the knife, I do not think the prosecution would jeopardize their case by twisting the facts.

Saying that all black people in Houston are displaced New Orleanians is just as problematical, as is insinuating that all displaced New Oleanians are somehow criminals deserving to be shot.

Sometimes it's time to call a spade a spade, not claim it is a diamond.

doubleg
March 31, 2007, 08:11 PM
The displaced N.O. thugs have brought nothing but trouble to Houston, but as a former resident this crap was happening long before Katrina. I know a women who went to the Astrodome to help with the relief effort and was pulled into a bathroom and raped. NO COMMENT ON THAT ONE :cuss: .

tnieto2004
March 31, 2007, 08:25 PM
The prosecution is stating the CHL holder pulled the knife. Chances are, the prosecution has more facts at their disposal than any member of this forum. While it would be convenient if the deceased had pulled the knife, I do not think the prosecution would jeopardize their case by twisting the facts.

Saying that all black people in Houston are displaced New Orleanians is just as problematical, as is insinuating that all displaced New Oleanians are somehow criminals deserving to be shot.

Sometimes it's time to call a spade a spade, not claim it is a diamond.

I agree!

You are wasting your breath .. I have asked MANY times where has it even been insinuated that the VICTIM had a knife .. no one has had and report of it .. To say that anyone in this thread has more knowledge than the eye witness reports is foolish.. Why do people keep saying "I BET THE BG HAD A KNIFE!!" .. SHOW US WHERE IT SAYS THAT PLEASE..Some people never cease to amaze me


:)

XavierBreath
March 31, 2007, 08:28 PM
tnieto2004,
Did you perhaps fail to read my post that you quoted?

tnieto2004
March 31, 2007, 08:33 PM
tnieto2004,
Did you perhaps fail to read my post that you quoted?



You do realize I am in agreement with your statement .. I have been saying that throughout the thread .. Someone always seems to come back with the "Well the BG had the knife" .. I was saying your wasting your breath because people aren't going to comprehend that the victim is not thought to have had a knife

XavierBreath
March 31, 2007, 08:44 PM
I see now, tnieto2004. Thanks! ;)
More details were released Friday in state district court concerning the 24-year-old man accused of fatally shooting another passenger during an argument on a Metro bus.

Prosecutors at a probable cause hearing said Garrett Mallot first pulled a knife, then a .357-caliber Magnum pistol during the dispute with Otis James Francis, 31, as the two rode a Metro bus in the 11700 block of Westheimer around 11:45 a.m. on Wednesday.
Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4676729.html)

This thread is about a factual and current case that threatens our rights to keep and bear arms. It should not be turned into a betting pool of the possibilities, nor should the facts as we know them be twisted. It is important that we act and speak on the facts, not what we wish them to be.

Attempts to muddy the water, obscure the facts, or set up straw men only hurts us. If we are to judge anything, let our judgement be based on the facts we have, rather than our wishful, hopeful fantasies.

MechAg94
March 31, 2007, 10:00 PM
tnieto, are you really as worked up about this argument has your writing implies?
I don't think anyone missed what you are said the first time, it is just idea that a guy would pull out two weapons seems strange so many are slow to condemn the CHL holder. Is that such a bad thing?

Spreadfire Arms
April 5, 2007, 02:39 AM
MechAg94 wrote:

One other thing: Deadly force is allowed in Texas for threat to life or serious bodily injury. There is case law in Texas that says fists can cause serious bodiy injury. There was a case in Dallas early on where a guy was getting snot beat out of him and pulled out his gun and killed his attacker. It went to trial and the guy got off.

there is a difference in this case. it does not appear that the dead guy actually assaulted the CHL holder. in the case you mentioned, the guy was assaulted (pretty severely) and then pulled his gun in self defense.

much more justified and clear-cut than this case, where it was a threat of violence. if someone could shoot every time someone made a threat (and not even execute the threat) then we'd have a lot more shootings.

i think the investigation is still ongoing. however, if the news report is accurate:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4675545.html

Harris County Assistant District Attorney Katherine McDaniel said today that Mallot was getting on the bus and the two began arguing after Francis brushed Mallot's arm.

"That guy said he was going to kick my ass," Mallot told authorities. He told police he then pulled a knife and Francis repeated the threat.

Mallot, who had a license to carry a concealed handgun, then shot Francis in front of more than 20 passengers, McDaniel said.


then, the order of events is:

1. dead guy brushes up against CHL holder's arm which starts an argument
2. dead guy threatens to "kick his ass"
3. CHL holder pulls out a knife
4. dead guy again threatens to "kick his ass"
5. CHL holder pulls out a gun and shoots dead guy

i think conflict de-escalation did not occur here. something that DPS stresses heavily during the CHL class. it does not appear, from what is being disseminated, that any attempt at conflict de-escalation happened.

one of the test questions on the CHL test is something to the effect of "never use a gun to win an argument." True or False?

wjustinen
April 5, 2007, 09:41 PM
I also hope he "gets what is coming to him."

That would be a fair hearing where all the evidence is considered.

wjustinen
April 5, 2007, 09:49 PM
pls delete

crazed_ss
April 6, 2007, 07:49 AM
Since everyone is speculating about how bad the victim must have been to get shot.. I mean, if a law-abiding CHL holder shot him, he HAD TO BE a bad guy right? From the news story the shooter sounds like one of the bloodlust types.. the kind of person who is just itchin for a reason to shoot someone legally. Im guessing he wouldnt have had a gun on him if he didnt have the CHL. CHL holders are not infallible.. law-abiding citizens become law-breaking citizens everyday.

Double Naught Spy
April 6, 2007, 09:27 AM
News stories such as this often portray the good guy in a less than good light and refer to the deceased as being the victim which readers take to mean being the victim of an illegal act. In reality, the "victim" may be the bad guy and the shooter was attempting to not be a victim of an illegal act. This was the case with the Hale-Tavai case noted above. Tavai was the victim of the shooting, described as being "the victim" of the case, but Hale was stopping Tavai from committing further bodily damage on him.

In this Houston case, it is hard to say who is the actual bad guy. Had the deceased produced a knife, you would think that the defense would have brought up this aspect, but apparently there were no such witness accounts and the defense didn't challenge the Prosecution's claims that the shooter first produced a knife, then a gun.

TexasRifleman
April 6, 2007, 09:37 AM
The problem here is we have maybe 10% of the story.

Jeff White's point that if it was an LEO we'd be all over it is valid, but mainly because we'd have 20 different media outlets covering the story with interviews and film at 11 if this had involved a cop.

This is frankly a "boring" story from the media point of view and we are left with 2 or 3 lousy one paragraph articles with 2 or 3 versions of the story from the Houston Chronicle, a worthless newspaper to begin with.

I'm afraid this one will be a mystery as to what really happened until the trial.

Taison
April 9, 2007, 04:22 PM
To clear the confusion concering this "Murder", I was on the Metro bus and an eyewitness to what happened. First in my opinion the shooting was not justified. I will give you the facts and you can draw your own conclusion. The victim who was shot was sitting in the aisle seat just one row opposite the rear exit door. The suspect, defendant or murderer boarded the bus at Kirkwood and was making his way to the back of the bus when the motion of the bus caused him to stumble and bump into the victim. The victim responded, "watch were the ???? you are going." The murderer said, "excuse me sir." The victim then said, "I ought to knock you the **** out." The defendant stopped and said, "what." The victim then said, "I ougt to knock you the **** out." The murderer then shoved the victims shoulder and said, "C'mon then mother ****er let me see you do it." I was sitting in the handicap seat just opposite the rear exit door. When the Murderer shoved the victim he then stepped back in front of me and pulled out a knife. As the victim got out of his seat to confront his soon to be killer, the Murderer said, **** it, dropped his knife and pulled out a .357 magnum and shot the victim in the back as he was running toward the front. So in defense of the Victim and the DA, this thug who happened to have a license to carry a weapon, was looking for an opportunity for someone to make his day and carried it out with this senseless murder.

lacoochee
April 9, 2007, 04:35 PM
Actually based on what you just described, the shooter was a moron/murderer and the victim had a death wish. Very sad.

The victim then said, "I ought to knock you the **** out." The defendant stopped and said, "what." The victim then said, "I ought to knock you the **** out."

Guess the victim didn't want to be knocked the **** out. So he will likely go down for second degree murder though it will most likely be manslaughter if he pleads. Makes you wonder why the perpetrator got the CHL in the first place, maybe two years ago he got on a bus and by accident stumbled into someone and was beaten within an inch of his life for being clumsy. Who the hell knows, it just goes to shows you that the "Golden Rule" should be followed in all circumstances.

TCB in TN
April 9, 2007, 04:37 PM
If that story is true then the Dude needs to be fried!

PotatoJudge
April 9, 2007, 04:51 PM
looking for an opportunity for someone to make his day and carried it out with this senseless murder.

Hey, I've heard those before.

Taison, this is not to cast doubt on the truthfulness of your story (last thing I'd do is jump in and call a new member a liar). It sounds like the result of either reading up on the subject after the fact or picking it up from the media at some point. I'm curious which, because they're otherwise not commonly used phrases.

K-Romulus
April 9, 2007, 05:11 PM
:rolleyes:

Taison
April 9, 2007, 05:12 PM
I did not pick these facts from a second source. I subscribed to this board just to clear the facts. I was on my way to the airport via the Metro when this occurred. It happened no more than a foot in front of me. The guy even conversed with me afterwards. If you go to www.khou.com and look at the helicopter images taken at the scene you will see me talking with a houston police officer. I am holding a black bag in the second scene. I will admit that only a few passenger really knew what happened because it occurred in the rear of the bus were a few passengers were sitting. The nurse who said she attended to the victim even lied about her role. My version of the story is only known by the DA because I could not stick around to talk to detectives because I had a plane to catch. The officer you see me talking to took my phone number and Homicide detective said it was ok for me to leave. If you want to know more facts email me at tcar_2@hotmail.com

PotatoJudge
April 9, 2007, 06:02 PM
Taison, thanks for coming here and clearing up the facts for us. Sorry you had to witness the event, can't have been pleasant.


A couple of questions if you don't mind:
How did the shots affect your hearing?
Why use the phrases I bolded in my last post (if you know)?

Taison
April 9, 2007, 06:55 PM
Potato,

To answer your question, the blast did not affect my hearing at all. Let me also add, the victim did not say he was going to knock the suspect the **** out, he said he ought to knock him the **** out. The situation escalated when the suspect pushed the victims shoulder and said c'mon let me see you do it. This is hardly a self-defense case, right? The suspect did not use his 357 magnum because he feared for his life, he used it because he felt he was being "dissed." My impression of this kid is that of a wanna-be gangster.

PotatoJudge
April 9, 2007, 07:31 PM
This is hardly a self-defense case, right?

Sounds like a murder case. The reason for all the skepticism is that it these things are pretty rare with CHL holders.

Just to clarify (and hopefully not to harp on the issue) the reason I asked about the "make my day" thing is that is a gun-control catch phrase.

http://www.licensetomurder.com/main.php

Happyshooter
April 9, 2007, 08:26 PM
I am not calling out. I am trying to understand what you are saying. The shooter tagged the guy in the back, or shot him and then the guy turned to run?

Johnny Guest
April 9, 2007, 08:31 PM
Taison, have you yet returned and given a written statement to Houston PD or the DA's Office?

I know that it is policy in a death investigation for the police to interview and obtain statements from ALL those on the scene at the time of the incident. On the other hand, some witnesses decide they "have other, more pressing business," and leave the area before the police arrive.

If you are sharing this information with the THR membership, I hope you are doing likewise with the police.

Best,
Johnny

tnieto2004
April 9, 2007, 08:38 PM
Thanks for your account Taison.. Thats pretty much what the media reported .. A bump into the victim .. a confrontation .. Then a shooting .. Looks like the guy was an idiot with a gun .. Hope he gets what he deserves ..

Mad Chemist
April 9, 2007, 08:51 PM
This doesn't seem to make very much sense.


As the victim got out of his seat to confront his soon to be killer, the Murderer said, **** it, dropped his knife and pulled out a .357 magnum and shot the victim in the back as he was running toward the front. So in defense of the Victim and the DA, this thug who happened to have a license to carry a weapon, was looking for an opportunity for someone to make his day and carried it out with this senseless murder.
This statement fails the smell test.:scrutiny:

So said victim was how far away from his assailant?
Did he see the knife?
Was he attempting to disarm the assailant?
How long did this episode take to unfold?
Exactly when did he change directions? Was it mid-course or did he actually lay hands on the shooter?
I'm sure the investigators would be even more interested in the details than I am.;)

If you are worth your word and actually have pertinent info regarding the case, then you should probably keep your mouth shut so that you can be a more credible witness at the trial. :rolleyes:

If this is a fabrication and you are playing games with other peoples' mifortunes, then you are the lowest kind of low.

JH

XavierBreath
April 9, 2007, 09:19 PM
My version of the story is only known by the DA because I could not stick around to talk to detectives because I had a plane to catch. The officer you see me talking to took my phone number and Homicide detective said it was ok for me to leave.I find it odd that officers would let a witness to a murder leave because he had a plane to catch.

Don Lu
April 9, 2007, 09:55 PM
Im very surprised at how many people have been defending the CCW holder or creating faux situations where he could be justified in what he did.. We never really know all the facts but it seems like noone wanted to give any credence to the original article and all of a sudden you cant believe what you read and see on TV. Its Ironic b/c everyday on THR, people use an article or news clip to start a thread. I dont think I have ever seen such a quick judgement made opposing the article without any tangible reason to do so. Its just strange..I agree w/the post about calling a spade a spade. Surprisingly people here have almost been looking for excuses for the CCW guy and creating scenarios about why the victim probably deserved it... some of the reaction to this thread makes me very uncomfortable.

gunsmith
April 9, 2007, 10:08 PM
no disrespct meant but having been on this board a few years I have
seen it is very common for trolls to comment that they knew the victim or were at the scene of a shooting that is being discussed.
If you were a witness then you would have been told not to discuss the case, that is why I am having a hard time accepting your story.
If I am wrong please accept my apology.

romma
April 9, 2007, 10:20 PM
So said victim was how far away from his assailant?
Did he see the knife?
Was he attempting to disarm the assailant?
How long did this episode take to unfold? Sigh, Were is Perry Mason when you need him? Sorry, trying to inject humor here because this thread could use some... These are of course fair questions. As far as some colorful scenerios imagined, Wow! :rolleyes:

Tinmancr
April 9, 2007, 11:13 PM
wow this is a fun little quandary, a man pulls a knife and is shot in a crowd?
Who has time to draw when a knife is be wielded in front of them?
Up here any law abiding citizen can carry no questions asked, since this was enacted I haven't heard of many more shootings than we normally have.
Mostly drunks, druggies, angry lovers.
So if you think in this state with so many gun nuts most who can carry, I personally have a couple times walking downtown.
I would actually prefer the knife in close quarters, and would not try to pull a gun in this situation.
I always carry a knife and am quite good with it "best multitool" in my opinion.
Oh yeah and we all react different to a given set of events.
Most people either assume or know kill someone will change them.
Mentally, or by way of repercussions it will change something.
I have had a story of personal defense told to me a couple of times from an old wino who happens to be fairly crazy.
He had to kill or be killed, a gun in his face and 10+ years later in a drunken or sober state he still is trying to justify it to himself.
The court justified it as self defense, but he still wasn't sure deep down

computerguysd
April 10, 2007, 12:15 AM
Out of who knows how many hundreds of thousands, probably millions, of carry permits there will be some cases where a clean criminal record and mental history can't screen out someone who later breaks the law or has some kind of breakdown.

What happened here? Who knows; literally the jury is still out on this case (maybe it's not even assembled), yet.

However this case turns out, it doesn't indicate in any way that CCW permit holders are any danger to the general public. The statistics for safe handling of firearms and crimes prevented by CCW holders will not be impacted if this particular case turns out to be an isolated case of poor judgement by someone that qualified to have a permit and then later demonstrated poor judgement.

Jim March
April 10, 2007, 12:52 AM
Folks, we don't have to worry about whether Taison is lying or not.

According to him, the deceased was shot in the back.

Handgun ammo always gives a very clear indication as to which wound is entrance and which (if any) is exit. So that part of his statement is either true or false, and can't be faked.

If it's true, the shooter is going to spend a looooong time in jail, as he should if Taison's story is at least broad-strokes accurate. Per Taison, the deceased was an idiot and a hot-head, but the shooter was indeed a murderer. Sounds a lot like somebody who had been attacked/abused in the past and was on hair-trigger alert for another bully.

Do I know anything for sure? Nope. And I won't post to this thread again. The truth will come out, esp. regarding direction of bullet travel and the direction of travel of the deceased.

(Sidenote: medium-power-or-above rifle ammo can make wound direction ID tricky if it blows out huge chunks - but a 357 just can't do that.)

Taison
April 10, 2007, 02:03 PM
I will in summation try to answer some of the questions concerning my posts. First I must say it is funny how we disclaim everything written in the Houston Chronicle concerning this case except the claim that this suspect had a permit to carry. Why are we quick to believe the media concerning this fact when it has not yet been established as truth? I would also ask that you re-read my first post because some of the questions asked are answered in it. About leaving the scene I waited for, what seemed like forever, for the police to arrive and I was surprised the paramedics arrived before the police. There is a police station no more than a mile from the scene but it took them five minutes to arrive. When the police arrived I talked with a Sergeant who wrote my statement down. The officer told me I would have to wait for the Homicide detective before I could leave. I told him I could not miss this flight so he called homicide on the phone and he gave me permission to leave. I was told he would call me on my cell the next day but he never did. I called the DA handling the case the following Monday and spoke with her. She took my information and said she would contact me later.
To answer the question concerning the knife. If you empty your mind of what you read in the paper and re-read my first post you will see that it was the shooter who had the knife not the victim. The Houston Chronicle was relating two versions of the incident in its article titled "Knife threat revealed in shooting." The D.A.'s version and the Suspects version. The suspect said that the victim pulled a knife on him but the D.A.'s version which must have been obtained from witnesses said that the Suspect pulled a knife first. This information came out during the suspects probable cause hearing. The Houston Chronicle with its bad reporting was wrong to entitle the article, "Knife threat revealed in shooting." As far as me giving too much detail of a pending murder case, let me say if you read the news articles concerning this shooting or watch the news videos you will see that I have not disclosed anything the media has not already reported. There were a few questions concerning the shooting that I do not feel at liberty to answer. I am sure these questions are out of curiousity but I do not feel it proper for me to go into such detail about the incident on this site. But I will say this, I checked the victims vitals with a nurse after the shooting and observed his wounds and it appeared to me that the bullet hit the victim in the right side of his back, traveled across his body, went through his chest and lodged in his left arm. Is a .357 caliber bullet capable of doing this? I am speculating this because the victim had a flesh wound on the inside of his left arm. This is only speculation please do not qoute this as fact. I initially posted on this site to clear up the speculations and cut through all the rhetoric but as in most situations people will discredit truth if it contradicts there own presuppositions. I hope this post helped clear up some of the confusion.

Taison
April 10, 2007, 02:15 PM
Mad Chemist,

The victim may not have seen the knife, but he definitely saw the gun and started running toward the front of the bus as soon as he saw it. I am not sure at what point the bullet hit him. I will not answer the other questions.

GaryL
April 10, 2007, 09:29 PM
But I will say this, I checked the victims vitals with a nurse after the shooting and observed his wounds and it appeared to me that the bullet hit the victim in the right side of his back, traveled across his body, went through his chest and lodged in his left arm. Is a .357 caliber bullet capable of doing this? I am speculating this because the victim had a flesh wound on the inside of his left arm. This is only speculation please do not qoute this as fact. Thanks for the info. People tend to be skeptical when they've been lied to a few times (as most of us have).

A 357 mag is fairly powerful. There are a number of factors that determine the path a bullet will take, including density of the materials it travels through and what it encounters first. It is quite possible for your observations to be quite accurate in that respect.

Coronach
April 11, 2007, 09:18 PM
THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH MEDIA REPORTS. THEY ARE NOT ACCURATE. I HAVE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR ABOUT 4 YEARS NOW IN REFERENCE TO LEO SHOOTINGS, BUT WE CONTINUE TO BLATHER ON FOR 4+ PAGES ABOUT HOW THIS PROBABLY HAPPENED AND HOW THAT WENT DOWN AND HOW WE ONCE KNEW SOMEONE WHO HAD A ROOMATE IN COLLEGE HAVE THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPEN TO HIM AND THIS IS ALL A BUNCH OF :cuss:. MAYBE NOW THAT IT IS A CCW PERMIT HOLDER WE WILL ALL FALL BACK AND REMEMBER THE FIRST RULE OF EVALUATING MEDIA REPORTS:

MEDIA REPORTS ARE NOT ACCURATE. AT ALL.

PERIOD. FULL STOP. THE END.

THEY'RE WORTHLESS.

WAIT FOR THE TRIAL.

Thank you,

Mike

PS Yes, I'm aware I was "yelling". I was actually yelling. THRers, take the hint.

MechAg94
June 5, 2007, 11:28 PM
I came across this doing another search. I remembered the facts in the original discussion were somewhat confusing so I figured I would post this. Sounds like things weren't as bad for the shooter as some thought.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4862410.html

By KEVIN MORAN
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle
A murder charge against a man accused of fatally shooting another man on a Metro bus in March has been dropped, according to court records.

A Harris County grand jury Friday considered the evidence in the case and declined to indict Garrett William Mallot, 24, court records show.

Mallot was alleged to have shot Otis James Francis, 31, after the two were involved in an argument on the bus in the 11700 block of Westheimer shortly before noon on March 28, police said at the time.

Mallot had been free on a $50,000 bond posted shortly after the incident, court records show.

Police said Mallot had a license to carry a concealed handgun when he shot Francis on the bus carrying about 30 passengers.

Houston police spokesman John Cannon said today that investigators noted in preliminary written reports that Mallot pulled a knife during the verbal exchange with Francis before Mallot pulled his gun and shot Francis.

Prosecutors and Investigators who worked on the case were not available for comment today.

Francis was black and Mallot is white but police said there was no indication that race was involved in the incident.

Mallot was still on the bus when police arrived and his hands were raised in surrender as the police boarded the bus. Paramedics had the gun Mallot used.

Metro Police Chief Tom Lambert said at the time that the shooting was a rare occurrence on the transit system that carries about 330,000 people a day on 1,300 buses.

Metro crime statistics show there were no other killings on Metro vehicles in 2006 or 2007. There were 15 aggravated assaults between October 2005 and September 2006 on buses and at Metro facilities. There were eight aggravated assaults reported between October and March.

kevin.moran@chron.com

XavierBreath
June 6, 2007, 12:02 AM
HOUSTON -- A man will not face charges in connection with a fatal shooting on board a Metro bus, KPRC Local 2 reported. A grand jury decided Garret Mallot, 24, defended himself when he shot Otis Francis, 31, during a confrontation on the No. 82 bus on Westheimer Road near Royal Oaks Club Drive on March 28. Mallot accidentally brushed up against Francis and got into verbal argument, officials said.

"Mr. Mallot, being significantly physically smaller than the victim, pulled out a knife," Mallot's attorney Alvin Nunnery said. "When he recognized that the deceased was still continuing toward him in an aggressive manner, already announcing his intention to hurt him physically, he (Mallot) pulled out his gun and he shot him one time."

Several witnesses testified that Mallot was defending himself. Mallot did not testify. Mallot had been charged with murder, but the grand jury decided that there was not sufficient probable cause. Francis had a lengthy criminal past and had been arrested on charges of felony assault of a peace officer and fighting on two Metro buses.

"I think he has a history of kind of bullying and intimidating people," Nunnery said. "I think the grand jury rightfully took that into consideration in assessing the entire situation."

Link (http://www.click2houston.com/news/13444644/detail.html)Interesting snippets from the video at this link: Garrett Mallot will retain his right to keep and bear arms. Mallot was represented by a court appointed attorney, Alvin Nunnery. Otis "Magic" Francis had a history of two assaults on Metro buses, and one assault on a peace officer. Francis also served time for narcotics charges. In 2003, Francis was charged with assault with a deadly weapon, but he, too was "no-billed" by a Grand Jury.

romma
June 6, 2007, 08:35 AM
Good for the guy defending himself,, and good for us all. Of course there won't be too much in the media about this persons vindication I am sure.

MechAg94
June 7, 2007, 12:34 PM
Well, the article above was in the media. :) Not big news though.

Pushrod
June 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
Wow! I'm not sure I agree with the Grand Jury on this one. If what the witness Taison said is true, then it wasn't a good shoot. So either Taison is full of it or the Grand Jury was filled with a bunch of morons.

Double Naught Spy
June 7, 2007, 01:54 PM
Somehow, Taison's eyewitness account doesn't seem to work, or his story for being able to leave to catch a plane.

ArfinGreebly
June 7, 2007, 02:52 PM
It seems one of two things happened.

Either:
the prosecutor and grand jury concluded the bad guy "needed killing" and there was no point prosecuting the CCW dude,
or
the prosecutor and grand jury found no evidence that the CCW dude broke the law and/or they didn't think a prosecution would fly.

In any case, it seems justice was served.

wolfman01
June 9, 2007, 12:16 PM
Somehow, Taison's eyewitness account doesn't seem to work, or his story for being able to leave to catch a plane.

I agree. Investigators are not going to give one whit if an eyewitness has a plane to catch. Taison would have missed his flight - period. The generous use of catch phrases in his original post are also extremely damaging to his credibility. I'll give the grand jury the benefit of the doubt in this case, over this particular poster.

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