[2dogs]

Consider this a rant- there is something really wrong with what has been going on for too long in the Middle East, and this "road map" crap is not the solution.

Is there anyone on this board who would, if this were happening in the U.S., would not react as we did against Al Quida- and as the Israelis should against Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, or any other name these animals go by?

OK you say, it's Israel's fault for "the occupation" of "Palestinian" lands. Lets assume that BS is correct- then by God it's war and who cares who is right or wrong, fight it out and winner take all- instead of all parties slowly bleeding to death.

My own personal opinions on a solution are:

1. As stated above, if the Palestinians want a war over "their" land then go on and fight one- all out, winner takes the West Bank and Gaza, loser (and I am betting heavily on the Palestinians losing) take their collective @$$e$ into Jordan or one of the other God forsaken desert stink holes that the Arabs seem to prefer.

2. If they don't want to fight a war, then put them on trains (yah, I know- there aren't any) and ship them to Jordan, or Egypt or Saudi Arabia, or someother sand pit of their choosing- but get rid of them.

I don't care if it is their land- they lost, get over it and move on like millions of other refugees do after war- try and accomplish something other than building a better bomb belt.

You liberals will blather on about how shipping them on trains would be oh, so Nazi like. No, it's not. They wouldn't be shipped off to death camps, they'd be shipped off to someplace where they could put their given talents to use, improve their lives, get rich and buy big TV's and, if they aren't happy with that, blow up other fricken Arabs.

Besides, the Nazi's rounded up and shipped off peaceful, productive citizens whose only crime was being of a particular religious/ethnic backround- imagine if the Jews of Europe had been terrorist bombers and sympathizers. The world would have cared even less about their fate than they did!

Anyway, I'm sick and tired of the whole revolting mess- I say U.S. help Israel win, or get the he11 out of the way and LET them win.

Then "negotiate" a peace.

End of rant- below you can find a (probably) better written and somewhat less angry one.





http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331

The Return of "Tolerable Carnage�
By Steven Plaut
FrontPageMagazine.com | June 12, 2003


The terrorists have struck against Israel once again. Yesterday witnessed yet another suicide bombing, this one on an Israeli bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 16 people and wounding dozens more.

As Yoggi Berra would say, it is déjÃ* vu all over again.

Once again, a “ceasefire� is being proposed in which Arabs can go on killing Jews while the whole world demands that the Jews refrain from shooting back to kill their murderers.

Where have we heard this formula before? And exactly how many murders of Israeli children should be considered tolerable and “within reason�?

“Tolerable levels of carnage� have been the basis of every Israeli “ceasefire agreement� with the Arabs over the past decade. The Oslo Accords with the PLO were clearly based on controlled carnage. The PLO went through some rhetorical hoops and issued some duplicitous “denunciations� of terror, but soon enough it and its Islamist affiliates returned to their routine of murder and bombing.


All the deals worked out by Israel with the Hizbollah and Lebanon were similar. Before Ehud Barak’s 2000 capitulation in Lebanon, when Israel agreed to a unilateral withdrawal in exchange for diddly squat, a similar “tolerable level of carnage" agreement was in place there with the Hizbollah. Hizbollah could murder a few Israeli soldiers each week, but as long as they only rarely fired shells into civilian towns in northern Israel, Israel agreed to take no meaningful action against Hizbollah, its bases and its Syrian (let alone Iranian) puppet masters.


Ever since Ehud Barak’s parody of Dunkirk, the same rules have applied in Lebanon. Hizbollah has murdered Israeli civilians along the border since the Israeli total withdrawal from southern Lebanon. It has kidnapped several Israeli soldiers as well as one civilian, and it fires anti-aircraft shells into Israel almost every day. These shells have injured and killed. But under “tolerable levels of carnage� deals, Israel does nothing in response.


It is not exactly a serendipitous revelation that as part of the ballyhooed “Road Map,� yet another Oslo deal is being struck now - under the extortionate pressure on Israel being applied by the United States – and once again it is to be a “tolerable level of carnage� arrangement. How do we know? Because the Ariel Sharon’s Chief of Staff of the Prime Minister’s Office, attorney Dov Weisglass, confirmed so recently in an interview with the IMRA news service. His exact words were, "All we are asking the PA (Palestinian Authority) to do is to reduce terrorism to a tolerable level." He did not spell out how many murders of Jewish children he would regard as tolerable.


I doubt that anyone seriously thought the U.S. was going to condition its diktats to Israel regarding the Road Map on the Palestinians actually foregoing the pleasure of murdering Jews. It was pretty obvious from the start that the White House and the State Department would settle for some duplicitous statement from Arafat or from his new figleaf – the “Prime Minister� Abu Mazen - expressing vague "regret" for homocide bombings. The U.S. would ask for private PLO assurances that they really are doing their utmost to track down the terrorists. The Hamas leaders like the one Israel tried to assassinate this week (and angered President Bush in the process) are the same Hamas and Jihad leaders Arafat himself was supposed to whack under the Oslo Accords. The PLO can never seem to find Hamas and Jihad terror leaders, unlike the CNN and BBC camera crews. After a few weeks of this charade, the U.S. will announce that the PLO has done everything it reasonably can be expected to do.



The PLO is already insisting that it can not take more effective action against the terrorists (most of whom these days are from the PLO factions under Arafat’s and Abu Mazen’s direct command and control), because its security apparatus has been crippled by Israeli reprisal actions. Even after Abu Mazen “took over,� not a day has gone by without new Palestinian atrocities, most carried out by Arafat’s own tightly controlled militias. The White House will eventually agree with the PLO’s posturing and insist that now it is Israel’s turn to demonstrate its good will by agreeing to new concessions to the PLO, new appeasements and “goodwill gestures.� In particular, it will demand that Israel once again abide by a unilateral ceasefire in which “tolerable levels of carnage� are observed. Hence, the Jewish state of Israel will be the only country on earth whose anti-terrorist defense policy is to be governed by the principles of pure Christianity, turning of the other cheek at every offense.


The Road Map is based on demands that Israel voluntarily insert its neck into a noose for the sake of peace, while the Arabs solemnly promise never to pull on the rope. The U.S. will guarantee that the Arabs will not pull that rope, unless of course the State Department again loses the document with the guarantee, like it did in 1967. You may recall that after the U.S. guaranteed for Israel in 1957 that the Straits of Tiran would remain open if Israel withdrew from Sinai at that time. The Straits were closed by Egypt to Israeli shipping in 1967 in an act of war. The State Department did not take military action on Israel's behalf.



In 1957 Israel sacrificed strategic assets, land, lives, and treasure in order to deliver a goodwill gesture to the Arabs, in exchange for U.S. guarantees. Those guarantees proved worthless. And similar guarantees to check Arabs terrorism after the implementation of the “Road Map� may, too, prove worthless, as the terrorists unleash a new war of annihilation against Israel.

http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8331

[2dogs]

OK, I feel better now- whew.

But this just goes on and on- decade after decade- like Barry McGuire put in song over some time ago:

The Eastern World
It is explodin'
Violence flarin'
Bullets loadin'
You're old enough to kill
But not for votin'
You don't believe in war
But what's that gun you're totin'
And even the Jordan River has bodies floatin'


But you tell me over, and over, and over again my friend
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction


Don't you understand what I'm tryin' to say
And can't you feel the fears I'm feelin' today
If the button is pushed, there's no runnin' away
There'll be no one to save
With the whole world in a grave
Take a look around you boy,
It's bound to scare you boy


And you tell me over, and over, and over again my friend
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction


Yeah, my blood's so mad
Feels like coagulatin'
I'm sittin' here, just contemplatin'
I can't twist the truth
It knows no regulation
Handful of senators don't pass legislation
And marches alone can't bring integration
When human respect is disintegratin'
This whole crazy world
Is just too frustratin'


And you tell me over, and over, and over again my friend
Ah, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction


And think of all the hate there is in Red China
Then take a look around to Selma, Alabama
Ah you may leave here for four days in space
But when you return it's the same old place
The poundin' of the drums
The pride and disgrace
You can bury your dead, but don't leave a trace
Hate your next door neighbor, but don't forget to say grace


But you tell me over, and over, and over, and over again my friend
You don't believe we're on the eve of destruction
No, no, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, on the bright side, if we were on the Eve then- how long is an Eve? And things did get better in some places, eh?

OK, now we're getting maudlin.:barf:

[2dogs]

One last thought- I'll bet none of you (we) bozos on this bus, er board, could have gotten "coagulatin" into a song.:p

[2dogs]

JERUSALEM — The Islamic militant group Hamas (search ) on Thursday ordered its fighters to carry out more attacks on Israelis.


The group also urged foreigners to leave Israel and the Palestinian areas for their own safety.

"We call upon all foreigners to evacuate the Zionist entity immediately in order to protect their lives," Hamas said in a statement. "We call on all military cells to act immediately and act like an earthquake to blow up the Zionist entity and tear it to pieces."

In Israel, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (search) swore to hunt Palestinian militants "to the bitter end" and Israeli helicopters rocketed another car carrying Hamas members, the latest strike in a cycle of vengeance that killed 27 people in a less than a day.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,89193,00.html


OK, looks like they're getting the message.

[TallPine]

Most of the "palestinians" moved in from some other arab country (for work opportunity, etc) and now claim that they are "natives" oppressed in their homeland.

[0007]

They won't be coming back to Jordan. This country threw Arafat and his bully-boys out about 30(?) years ago when they tried to pull this same doo-doo in Jordan. The only reason that any of them got away was that the peanut farmer or the actor (I don't remember which) sent the US Navy to take them off the beaches on the Jordan coastline.

[Jim March]

Here's my take: the Israeli "settlements" in the West Bank and Gaza are basically islands of prosperity in the middle of hell. Each settlement looks like a typical American suburb, except with an armored perimeter and massive security.

The surrounding "Palestinian" areas (and yes, I agree the term is often suspect) are poverty-stricken disaster areas.

Folks, regardless of ANY history, that sort of situation is a tinderbox and long term, a total disaster.

As a practical matter, those settlements have got to go. Period. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

So what to do?

If I ran Israel:

Announce a total pullout from Gaza and the West Bank. Relocate those settlers over a 60 to 90 day period. It'll be a horrendous pain, but they knew what level of problems it would cause and that a total eviction of the "Palestinians" would be the only way to keep those "settlements" going and that's just not gonna happen.

But there'd be a price: once those settlements are empty, there better not be ONE more bit of trouble from "Palestine". The *instant* the Israelis had proof that yet another bombing was sponsored by Palestinians, the Israelis would have the proof they need that elimination of the Israeli state was the real goal all along.

At that point, instead of blowing up the house the the terrorist came from, it would be the city. Dresden-style. Enough fuel-air bombs to wipe it utterly from the map - no more screwing around, total war of extermination until they "got it" - BACK THE HELL OFF.

Nobody should have to tolerate what the Israelis have been living with.

[2dogs]

If I ran Israel: etc.


Jim March

Oh, the "moderate" plan eh?;)

[dustind]

Since the United States was mostly responsible for creating this mess after WW2, why don't we give the Israelis half of California(or some other state), and return the land they are currently on to the natives? They would be a lot safer over here, than stuck in the middle of the Middle East. After all, Californian's have 49 other states to choose from, it not like they need to stay there. Everyone knows the state of California can't take on the rest of the US, so obviously they don't deserve to live, or to have homes, what is important is that they loose. Anyone who doesn't leave the state after the time limit will be shot, if they protest we should keep killing men, women, and children until they shut up.

[Keith]

Why is the United States "responsible" for Great Britains division of Palestine into Israeli and Arab zones?

Perhaps you meant the United States was responsible for the UN vote that codified that partition?

Or did you mean that the United States is responsible for Jordan and Syria's theft of most of the Palestinian land in 1948?

Or perhaps you meant the United States is responsible for the attacks that Jordan, Syria and Egypt have launched against Israel, resulting in loss of territory (the West Bank, Gaza) that the Palestinians now want - land that Arab nations stole from them and lost to Israel?

Or perhaps you meant the United States is responsible for the Roman occupation of Palestine? Or the crusades? Or the Ottoman occupation? Or the European holocaust which drove so many Jews to return to their original homeland?

Or perhaps you just meant that as a knee-jerk response; whenever something is wrong, it MUST be the fault of the United States...

Keith

[dustind]

I was just re-wording the post to replace the united states with Palistine, it seems ok to kill one group of people, and take their land. So i switched it around, I doubt people would like it if it happened to them. I meant to include Britian in the creation part, but i was trying more to draw an anology, not go for historical fact.

Edit: Here is what i was responding to, i did not mean to overly blame the US

To elaborate on my analogy, if some more powerful country took half of one of our states, the other half would turn to a wasteland oppressed by the protected police state of the other, and the residents of the area would go to war for decades fighting for what each thought was theirs. Either side can end it by pulling out, they both have that power.

From 2dogs

then by God it's war and who cares who is right or wrong, fight it out and winner take all- instead of all parties slowly bleeding to death.

I don't care if it is their land- they lost, get over it and move on like millions of other refugees do after war- try and accomplish something other than building a better bomb belt.

From Jim March

At that point, instead of blowing up the house the the terrorist came from, it would be the city. Dresden-style. Enough fuel-air bombs to wipe it utterly from the map - no more screwing around, total war of extermination until they "got it" - BACK THE HELL OFF.

[Thumper]

Or perhaps you just meant that as a knee-jerk response; whenever something is wrong, it MUST be the fault of the United States...

*ding*ding ding*

We have a winner...

[Thumper]

When you base your argument on the "historical Palestinian homeland,"
historical fact
gains a modicum of importance.

[Jim March]

Here's one reason why the Israelis think they're in the right on all this, with some justification:

As tensions in the middle east heated up, Jews who had been living in the various Islamic and/or Arab states for literally thousands of years came under intense pressure. Life got REALLY hard for the Jewish communities in Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the like.

The total numbers of such people were actually higher than the number of "Palestinians". Note the past tense. While a few got killed in their former native countries, before things got out of hand Israel offered them all resettlement in Israel, where they live now (barring a very small number who wouldn't go, somewhere under 5,000 in the entire Arab world last I heard).

Why?

To reduce tensions. Israel does NOT want war.

The Arab/Islamic states won't take the Palestinians in. In stark contrast, they've abandoned them there, in as poor an economic situation as possible, so as to *inflame* tensions.

The Arabs *want* war. Their various totalitarian governments need an external enemy as distraction from their own disgustingness.

Israel made the perfect target.

[dustind]

I think your right Jim, sorry if i went a bit far, but suggesting fuel air explosives on a city of mostly innocent people is very wrong. I think that is partially responsible for this never ending war. One guy from one side does something, so the other side kills innocent people to teach the other side a lesson. That is the same as saying the people in the WTC deserved to die because America has done some shady things in the past, as have most countries. I also agree that the Arabs want war, but still, taking part of a country is never right.

[Apple a Day]

Okay, somebody explain to me why Arafat is still burning oxygen.
The U.S. forces the Palestinians to come up with UselessNewGuy to run the joint and still leaves Arafat backstage to send exploding stagedivers into the audience.
If the Israelis are serious about decapitating the terrorists organizations the first guy they need to send to Paradise should be Arafat. Letting him run amok only adds to his air of power and influence. I bet if Yasser wound up as kibble at the corner of Al Aksa and Hamas boulevards then some folks would stop for a second to reconsider how desperately they want to keep raising Cain themselves.
Just to veer off topic slightly, this is also the reason Saddam Houssein needs to get gotten IMHO.

[Thumper]

still leaves Arafat backstage to send exploding stagedivers into the audience.

Quite a way with words.

[Jim March]

Dustind:

Actually, no, in an all-out war, turning a city into a crispy critter may be preferable to the long-term alternatives. Ask any of the million-plus American troops who didn't have to die in a land assault on the Japanese homeland. Or the ones that didn't die because Stalin didn't go toe to toe with the US in the ashes of Europe, having seen what we did to Dresden within sight of his own front lines.

The question now is: "is it all-out war for the survival or extermination of Israel?"

The waters are muddied on that point in large part because the settlements really are a civil rights problem on Israel's part. Most of the "settlers" are very radical "Jewish supremacists" and themselves not real strong on civil rights issues.

It's as if the US officially sanctioned KKK groups to invade and harass black inner-city areas and set up all-while enclaves in Harlem and Compton and Detroit. The level of absolute rage that would be generated is about like what we're seeing in Gaza and the West Bank...jeez, it's not like people blow themselves to smithereens on a *whim*.

Get the dang settlers under control, get the heck out of the West Bank and Gaza, and *then* we get to absoutely prove what's going on. Anything past that, is plain ol' war.

In a war, you crush the will of the enemy to attack you. You do that by any means necessary. Failing that, you crush their *ability* to attack you, which is even worse in terms of damage done to the enemy state. And if that don't work, and it's been a very long time since things have ever gotten that far, you kill every single enemy, period.

It's unlikely, but if any nation is collectively idiotic enough to push it that far, it's the Palestinians :rolleyes:.

[TallPine]

dustind:

If you want to apply the palestinian situation to the US ...

Suppose a bunch of people from one or more other countries moved into parts of the US (such as CA or TX) because the job market and living conditions were about 10,000% better than where they came from.

Then suppose these same people decided that they weren't being treated as well as they expected to be in US, and started clamoring that they wanted to be independent in their (new) "homeland". Suppose they also started using random violence against innocent Americans to win their cause.

So let's move all of the Anglo settlements out of CA or TX to make them happy...

[Waitone]

Any chance of ending conflict in the Middle East (as opposed to peace in the middle east) lies in Iran, not Israel.

All terror organizations operating out of the ME are funded, encouraged, and incited by the clerics in Iran.

Every major terror hit involving the US in the ME since 1977 IIRC is the product of an Iranian operation.

All the brand name terror organizations currently operating including Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, et al work hand in glove with Iran.

Arafat is a wholy owned subsidary of Iran. Two weeks after the Iyatollah Komanie (?sp), returned to power in Iran after his exile in France during the 1970's (once again we can thank France for its contribution to western civilization) Arafat made a state visit to Iran. They've been in bed together since.

Ignoring Iran and its component in ME terror is a mistake.

A really great book on what's happening and why regarding the Middle East is "See No Evil" by Robert Baer. Baer was a CIA agent runner in the ME for 20+ years. He puts a lot of things into perspective based on his experience as an intelligence officer on the ground not orbiting in a satellite.

Iran will have to be neutralized. Its support for terror organizations has to be cut off. Lebanon will have to be freed from Iranian influence. Syria will have to be closed down as the terror groups front offices. The Bekah Valley will have to be flushed out and sanitized.

The key to Israel is Iran.

[MrAcheson]

Jim,

You missed a bit of political history with the Palestinians. The last country to "allow" the Palestinians in was Jordan. They did this by basically conquering their country. In return the Palestinians organized a rebellion against the Jordanian government from the inside.

No arabs want the Palestinians because they don't want the same thing to happen to them.

[B9mmHP]

The Palestinan people are hated by the Arab world, because they are not Arabs, so they use them. They are geneticaly identical to the Jews, they are brothers. He11 Airafart my be Arab though. I have no idea what Hamas is.

The brothers should get together, and Kill Airafart, PLO, and Hamas, and live together in one undivided Isreal.

Don`t ask me where I seen the Genetcily Identical thing, I was on the net about a year ago

[Pilgrim]

They won't be coming back to Jordan. This country threw Arafat and his bully-boys out about 30(?) years ago when they tried to pull this same doo-doo in Jordan. The only reason that any of them got away was that the peanut farmer or the actor (I don't remember which) sent the US Navy to take them off the beaches on the Jordan coastline.

The "Palestinians" operated several refugee camps in Jordan. In launching raids into Israel from these camps, Jordan was on the receiving end of retaliation from the Israeli Defense Forces. King Hussein tried to walk a tight rope of accommodating the Palestinian fedayeen and keeping Israel from attacking his territory. Between 1970 and 1971 relations between King Hussein and the Palestinians deteriorated and Hussein ordered his army to strike back at the Palestinians who were more and more taking steps to overthrow Hussein.

In July 1971 the Jordanian army drove the Palestianian fedayeen out of Jordan. Most of them ended up in Lebanon.

Palestinian fedayeen conducted raids from Lebanon into Israel. In the early 1980s, Israel launched an attack against Palestinian positions in Lebanon and essentially ended up occupying a good portion of Lebanon. The Syrians, apparently fearing the loss of their buffer state, also occupied a good portion of Lebanon. This eventually led to a clash between the IAF and the Syrian AF over the Bekaa valley where the IAF completely destroyed the Syrian Air Force in the air.

The United States sent Marines into Beirut, Lebanon, effectively stopping the Israelis from hunting down and killing Yassir Arafat. Thus, it was President Reagan and not Mr. Peanut who allowed Arafat to escape the wrath of Israel. Arafat and the PLO left Beirut, courtesy of the U.S. Navy and went to Tunisia.

The United States was forced to reevaluate their role in Lebanon after the Marine barracks was blown up by a car bomb, killing over 200 Marines.

Israel withdrew their forces from Lebanon after setting up a buffer force of friendly Christian factions and militias in southern Lebanon, and in response to intense domestic pressure to bring the IDF home.

I think parts of Lebanon are still occupied by Syria.

Pilgrim

[dustind]

I think the Palestinians inside of Palestine should have all of the freedoms and rights as the Israelis do in their ~50% of the country. If I am not mistaken, the Palestinians are not allowed to have weapons, privacy, and lots of other things we Americans take for granted. Aren't the Israelis running both countries/sides? The Israelis can travel into Palestinian territory, or at least do, but the Palestinians get shot up if they storm the Israeli's positions. Sort of like Jim's KKK analogy.
I also think if anyone can claim any land that was stolen, it should be returned.

I'll partially play devil's advocate here, wouldn't the fact that Israel even exists be considered an act of war. If someone took over my home, and forced me to live the basement, i would consider the fact that they are even there, and act of war. If someone stole my car, I imagine they would want peace, and for us to just get along, but as long as they had my car...

I know the last paragraph is not a perfect apples to apples analogy, since the Israelis do have some claim to the land. I am guessing it has also been covered before, but I am not sure of what the typical answer is, i think this was covered in a treaty though.

[Thumper]

I also think if anyone can claim any land that was stolen, it should be returned.

Appropos of nothing, Minnesota is a Sioux word meaning "The land of blue sky waters."

[Jim March]

The total population of the area we now know as the core of Israel (not counting the West Bank and Gaza) was *extremely* low when the Jews started moving in. The incoming Jews caused an economic boom in the area, which attracted Arab and other types of Islamic immigrants from 1920ish clean through to 1948.

Most of the "Palestinians" are no such thing, it's a political term more than anything else. They're what's left of the morons that decided to kill off every Jew circa '48. They failed, and have been whining about being "abused" ever since. Israel did NOT throw all the Arabs out of their homes, and in fact there are millions of Israeli citizens of Arab descent, practicing Islam, living in peace in the core of Israel proper.

As a culture, the "Palestinians" are flat-out disgusting. Their level of "honor killings" of women is the highest in the Arab OR Islamic worlds. Note that the "honor killings" are NOT an "Islamic practice" at all, it's based on extreme interpretations of old Arab cultural trends. The Arab culture had a hang-up about female sexuality going WAY back before Islam; Mohammed tried to put a lid on most of the crap that went on but some of it has crept back.

That's NOT an excuse for Israel to abuse the Palestinians, and the civil rights violations against them has GOT to stop, if only to "clarify the issue".

But if they really want to make it clear...they're liable to end up exterminated.

[TallPine]

Thanks Jim - people here listen when YOU say something :)

[2dogs]

Thanks for all the replies to this thread folks.

Just a thought here- why in all of the years that the Palestinians have been fighting for their "cause" haven't they turned this around- what if they had said alright, we are going to live in peace and harmony with you for 1 year- no bombings, no killings- after which we would like some of the settlements removed, or we'd like a portion of the West Bank for Palestinians only.

Why has their only recourse ever been to murder? Not once that I can remeber have they tried another way, or have THEY offered peace for land.

The reason has to be what they have stated over and over again- they do not want peace, they do not want to live side by side with Israel, they want to KILL ALL JEWS and they want to push Israel into the sea. They could not possibly make it any clearer.

And yet our government keeps playing this game- Oslo, the "road map"- this is not what Palestinians want- at least their leaders and the zealots do not want it, and their people go along with it.

There comes a point where you say that's it- and I think that time has come- no more games, no more offers, no more proposals and "road maps" and BS. You had too many chances and you blew them all.

[dustind]

Do you guys think its most of Palestine vs Israel, or just some isolated groups? Do the majority of the Palestinians want peace or war, in your opinion. I am still pondering the "level a city" idea. It was a good idea in WW2 vs Japan since we were at war with a country, and it worked to save lives on both sides. I would imagine if they did that to Palestine, terrorism would go through the roof from many countries, and it would be open war for the next few decades regardless of how much firepower was used. It is already rocks vs guns, and they have not given up.

The analogies of the United States taking land it should not have does not make sense, two wrongs do not make a right. The other examples also happened so long ago that everyone is dead, if the victims were alive they would be entitled to whatever was taken from them. What happened to the Indians, and others was wrong then, and now.

Jim March, I guess I stand corrected on a few things.

Thumper I heard "sky tinted water/s" same thing I guess.

[Jim March]

Both politically and culturally, Palestine does NOT have a *first* amendment. Anybody speaking out against the violence tends to get strung up from the nearest lamp-post riddled with bullets with a sign saying "collaborator with Israel" hanging off of one toe.

Basically, yes, there's a faction that's against violence all right, but they've been brutally suppressed. Hamas and the rest of the loonies have as many murders of Palestinians to their "credit" as they do Israelis.

Then there's the propaganda - the Islamic "schools" for the kids are financed by Saudis and teach everything from the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" to the "real recipe for Passover dinner" (ingredients include Arab babies).

Between the propaganda and the bullets, there's no rational Palestinian political voice outside of VERY closed doors, and even that ain't common.

[Apple a Day]

I am sure that there is a large segment of the Palestinian population which is sick and tired of getting blown up and hassled by the Israelis and by their own people. Unfortunately, I think, this segment of their population equates to our own "sheeple". They are the folks who aren't using guns and bombs. They are, with reason, scared of the extremists who do have guns and bombs and have no compunction about using them on whomever they decide doesn't fit with their idea of the world.
As long as the nuts are running around stirring things up then there will be war. No one is willing to stand up to the extremists and have an all-out civil war, so they sit back and suffer slowly. Somehow that reminds me of the boiling from analogy. The Palestinians are willing to take casualties in dribs and drabs which end up costing them more, gets messier than one big spring cleaning.

[2dogs]

Israel army order:
'Wipe out' Hamas
Directed to 'use any means necessary' to destroy leadership, infrastructure

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: June 12, 2003
11:00 a.m. Eastern



© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com

(excerpt)

Israel's army has been ordered to "completely wipe out" the Palestinian Islamic terrorist group Hamas, according to Israeli army radio.

The order, directing the army to use "whatever means necessary," comes one day after a suicide bomber tied to Hamas killed 17 and wounded 70 in an attack on a Jerusalem bus, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation said.


No Hamas leader is safe, said Israeli Internal Security Minister Tzachi Hanegbi.

The targets are the organization's infrastructure and its leadership, "from the lowliest member to Sheik Ahmad Yassin," the Hamas spiritual guide, ABC reported.

The directive was issued after Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz met with the army's top command after yesterday's attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

FOX News is reporting this also. I hope the Israelis are serious and successful. While they're at it, go after Hezbollah and the rest. Once they are out of the way maybe decent folks can start thinking peace.

[Sodbuster]

The targets are the organization's infrastructure and its leadership
We'll be hearing about the concern Dubya and Powell have about this. This could derail the road map. The BushMan wouldn't do something like this, attacking leaders of a terrorist group that were responsible for murdering some citizens of your country. Come on George, let's hear you open your mouth again like you did a couple days ago after Israel's retaliation for the latest bombing. What a worthless hypocrite.

[Waitone]

I was concerned to hear the same kind of bleeting coming out of Powell and Bush as I heard cout of Albright and Clinton. "Give peace a chance, I deplore. . . , Stop the killing. . . .", and other sorts of horse puckey.

One difference remains that has not been discussed. While Albright and Clinton would be happy to limit its participation to words and various sorts of bleeting, Bush is not limited to words.

It is perfectly consistent for Bush to mouth the politically correct bleets and be working under the table to do what he an any other rational human knows what has to be done. If I was Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or whatever I'd not be comforted with Bush's PC bleets.

[Keith]

Dustin,

You really need to get some information on the situation.

Palestinians (Arabs) inside of Isreal have full rights. There are Arab members in the Israeli Knesset (Congress), etc.

Since the Oslo Accords, the Palestinian side is ruled by the Palestinian Authority (Arafat), NOT Israel. The incursions by the Israeli military are in response to the almost constant attacks by Palesinians against Israeli civilians. The Israeli army goes in, hits some terrorist targets and then leaves.

The Israeli's (by and large) acted honorably and with great restraint.

There is no economy on the Palestinian side because the billions in aid dumped on them for the last 40 years is all sucked up by Arafat and his cronies. This is not only motivated by greed, but by political considerations - if Arafat allowed the money to be used for economic infrastructure, the misery of the Palestinians would no longer be a political tool.

In the waning days of the Clinton administration, Arafat was offered the entire enchilada - the West Bank, Gaza, half of Jerusalem and corridors connecting it all. He turned it all down... why? Because without a never-ending war the Palestinians would have no use for Arafat. He'd be replaced by some reasonable person who (without a doubt) would soon toss Yasser in jail for his theft of tens of billions of dollars in UN aid.

Israeli governments come and go. US governments come and go. Arafat is always there, stirring the pot and turning down every offer of peace and nationhood that comes his way. When Arafat dies, peace will come - not before.

Keith

[NeverAgain26]

Hamas asked all foreigners and tourists to leave Israel.

Sorry, Hamas guys, I'm coming there in 2 weeks with my family and we are staying for close to 3 weeks. We will be all over the place, touring from North to South with a week n Jerusalem.

I feel bad I cannot be carrying, but I'll be damned if we are staying home.

NA26

[2dogs]

I feel bad I cannot be carrying

NeverAgain26

You mean you can in NJ?:what:

Anyway, good luck to you- stay safe.:D

[NeverAgain26]

I am working on carrying in N.J. and will now something in late summer.

Thanks and I'll check in from Israel.

NA26

[Thundercleese]

RE Jim :

To quote Larry Miller

"Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews.

Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals."

[Sergeant Bob]

I am sure that there is a large segment of the Palestinian population which is sick and tired of getting blown up and hassled by the Israelis and by their own people. Unfortunately, I think, this segment of their population equates to our own "sheeple". They are the folks who aren't using guns and bombs. They are, with reason, scared of the extremists who do have guns and bombs and have no compunction about using them on whomever they decide doesn't fit with their idea of the world.

This thing has been going on so long that I suspect most of them are born into hating Isreal. It's all they've ever known. It's a part of their belief system. Expecting them to change that view is like expecting a devout Christian to stop believing in G-d. No amount of land or money is ever going to change that. It's kind of like the Hatfields and McCoy's. After a few generations of the feud, they couldn't even remember why they hated each other. Just that they did.