D/A or S/A What's your take on this?


PDA






1man
March 31, 2007, 04:40 PM
This is my perception/belief!

Glock and Kahr, What type of action is the trigger(D/A or S/A)?

IMO, They have both striker systems(because the don't have the use of a hammer) and they both have S/A triggers or strikers!
The reason I say this is because every single action firearm(1911, Browning HP, AR15 and etc.) must have the striking system(hammer or internal striker) "set or cocked" before the firearm is physically ready to fire. Also, any "true" D/A can be reengaged simply by pressing the trigger again without going to through the normal Imediate-Action Drill(for autos "Tap-Rack-Bang" will automatically reset the striking system once the slide goes into battery). If you were to encounter a round that was loaded into the chamber that had a hard primer after you have pressed the trigger, you have the option of pressing the trigger again without having to manipulate the slide. It would be impossible to do this in S/A. If I'm wrong, try it(you will not have the option to press the trigger again like you would on a true D/A firearm)!

What's your take on this?

My experience;
I was shooting a Walther PPK at an indoor range in S.Cal when I encountered a round with a hard primer. My automatic reaction after I pressed the trigger and the gun went "click", I went into "Imediate-Action-Drill(Tap, Rack, Bag). I saw a live round eject and I felt & heard another round load up into the chamber and I preesed the trigger(the gun went BANG). It did it again(click instead of bang), I was about to go into IAD again but I thought about it. I'm shooting a traditional D/A(D/A and S/A) gun, so instead of "Tap, Rack, Bang", I pressed the trigger again(gun went BANG). If I pressed for that 2nd time and no fire, then I'd resort to IAD!

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waynedm
March 31, 2007, 04:55 PM
Kahrs are single action. As the gun sits in battery with the trigger not being pulled the striker is in the fully cocked position with potential energy against the sear. When the trigger is pulled the sear is tipped releasing the striker, potential energy is turned into kinetic. Smith M&Ps are the same way as well as XDs. The Taurus 24/7 and Milleniums that are double action/single action are the same as well, the only time the double action comes into play is for second strike.

Glocks when in battery with the trigger not pulled have only about 20% of the potential energy built up in the striker spring. When you pull the trigger the sear/trigger rod moves backwards pulling the striker back further building up more and more energy until it ramps down releasing the striker and the springs potential energy. The striker isn't cocked all the way - it's the same as a hammered gun with a half cock position basically. CZ 100s are the same way, as well as Taurus striker fired guns that are double action only rather than the DA/SA.

1man
March 31, 2007, 06:16 PM
Quote;
Glocks when in battery with the trigger not pulled have only about 20% of the potential energy built up in the striker spring. When you pull the trigger the sear/trigger rod moves backwards pulling the striker back further building up more and more energy until it ramps down releasing the striker and the springs potential energy. The striker isn't cocked all the way - it's the same as a hammered gun with a half cock position basically.

How is that possible? The way I see the exploded diagram of the Glock's internals and how the trigger sets, It has absolutely no resistance once the trigger is pressed & the sear is released and you can reset the sear(regain 100% striking capablity) by pulling the slide back a couple of millimeters. A gun with the hammer at half cock still has resistance when you press the trigger to reach sear release of the hammer(full striking power).

waynedm
March 31, 2007, 07:42 PM
I'm not positive I understand what you're asking, but I think you're wondering how on a second shot after the trigger reset why you don't have to let off all the way and there isn't nearly as much resistance as the first.

When the slide goes back it triggers the disconnect which is a tab on the edge of the trigger rod ramp. When this happens the trigger rod/sear pop up again gaining the original height the sear has before the ramp guides it downward. With it at that original height again the sear will catch the striker. As the slide goes forward the striker catches on the sear and since the trigger rod is back all the way still, it's actually cocking the striker again as the slide finishes going forward into battery. To fire again you have to let off the trigger shortly as to get the trigger rod back inside the ramp, once you hear a click it's back in. As long as you don't let off the trigger all the way you won't have nearly as much cocking to do when you pull the trigger.

Glocks are double action when you let off the trigger all the way.

If you want to see exactly what's going on this is a pretty decent deal, you can click certain parts to be transparent. It is kind of hard to see how the disconnect works from a side view though. If you have a Glock you can pull the slide and see how it works easier from the top view.

http://www.sniperworld.com/glock/

1man
April 1, 2007, 09:47 AM
When I refered to "no tension" on the trigger after the trigger is pressed(releasing the sear), I was speaking in terms of an unload gun(dry firing). Because if the gun is loaded and a live round was discharged then the sear will automatically reset creating tension on the trigger(ready to fire again, it will have tension on it).
I'm saying Glocks, Kahrs and Springfield XD are S/A because any "real" D/A gun will be able to strike or fire again simply by pressing the trigger(with out have to manipulate the slide/manually reset the striking system or hammer.

example;
1. 1911 with round in chamber,trigger is pressed, hammer strikes forward(no discharge, failure to fire, hard primer). The trigger can not be pressed again, the hammer must reset/cocked to be able to fire again.

2. Glock, Kahr and XD with round in chamber, trigger is pressed, striker is released(no discharge, failure to fire, hard primer). The trigger can not be pressed again, the sear must reset(slide pulled to rear to reset striker) to be able to fire again.

3. Beretta 90 series, HK USP, Sig P series with round in chamber, trigger is pressed, hammer strike forward(no discharge, failure to fire, hard primer). The trigger can be pressed again to strike or fire that round that didn't fire on the first attempt(I'd go into IAD after 2nd attempt was made).

My opinion only, Any true D/A firearm will be able to fire again by pulling the trigger(doesn't matter if the round discharges or not, the firearm itself is able to fire again). Look at the S/A revolver(comboy revolver), you have to cock the hammer to fire a round just like a REAL S/A semi-auto.
A regular(modern) traditional D/A revovler can be fired again simply by pulling the trigger again(without having to cock the hammer).

waynedm,
Thank You for that weblink that illustrate the Glock cycling/battery!

waynedm
April 1, 2007, 01:49 PM
Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah, second strike capability. I prefer guns with hammers myself and that are da/sa, although my next gun is a single action only with a hammer. But yeah, not a lot of striker fired guns with second strike capability. The Taurus ones that aren't DAO will do it, the CZ 110 will do it and so will the Walther P99 in the right trigger configuration.

1man
April 1, 2007, 02:29 PM
Yeah I perfer guns with D/A and S/A myself. I hate that these Fed and other LE agencies all are going to DAO semi-autos but I do love that they see that Glocks are DAO.

Does anyone know what their(Feds & other LE agencies) point of view for going to DAO firearms? I saw it somewhere but can't remember.

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