the glock-revolver safety analogy (re: cocked tda sig)


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jlh26oo
April 1, 2007, 03:15 AM
A popular method us glockers use when someone expresses apprehension over the lack of a manual safety, is to compare the GLOCK to a loaded revolver. Because it similarly lacks an external manual safety, but generally presents less of a concern to most folks. Premise being both platforms require the trigger to be activated in order to fire. Accept one = accept the other.

Of course, the analogy sometimes fails when pointed out the GLOCK trigger generally has a lighter pull and shorter travel than most revolvers. Our response is, if your finger (and everything else) is kept out of the trigger guard, then it in theory differences in trigger weight/travel are irrelevant.

Now, my question is (to fellow glockers, and especially sigsperts who accept the above anaolgy), what prevents this principle from being extended to carrying a traditional DA cocked (and UNlocked) instead of hammer down (as desinged)? It's not the trigger safety (revolver has none), and it's not the trigger pull weight/travel (different from revovler to glock as well).

I guess to me, there is a point at which the combination of trigger pull, weight, etc is not worth gambling, regardless of how well you keep fingers etc out of the trigger guard. Not saying it's that point for everyone just saying everyone has such a point. IE I don't think anyone would carry a pistol with a 1/2 pound SA trigger, safety off; yet it still requires something moving the trigger same as the above three (correct me if I'm wrong and someone is actually down w/that).

In fact there is a guy on GT who carries his sigs condition 0. He caught alot of flame for it, but no one could tell him how it would fire without his finger (or something) on the trigger. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but opened my eyes to the fact that I probably shouldn't use the revolver analogy anymore regarding GLOCK. Just point out the GLOCK safety system and stfu, because the same principle can be extended beyond what I think is safe.

So would anyone be OK with carrying a cocked tda Sig? Why or why not?

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Nightcrawler
April 1, 2007, 03:26 AM
Hmmm. Cocked and unlocked carry? Wouldn't there be a risk of an accidental discharge if the gun were dropped or something? I know that's the reason that the 1911 ended up with a grip safety. I'd worry about holster snags/pressure, too. With the trigger in single action mode, depending on the gun, it doesn't take but a couple pounds of pressure to drop the hammer. Even less so on revolvers than on automatics. It may be the same as the 3.5 pound Glock trigger, for example, but most DA/SA automatics have no "slack" in the trigger when cocked. The trigger is back and doesn't have to travel far to drop the hammer.

I wouldn't feel unsafe with a Glock/no-safety autopistol. But a cocked pistol with no safety? I'd be uncomfortable with that, I think. Too much potential for a minor handling flub, a mistake during draw, anything, and...well, the thought of a .44 Hydra-Shok travelling down my thigh, shattering my femur, maybe severing my femoral artery, and exploding out of my kneecap gives me sufficient heebie-jeebies that I'd never holster my 629 with the hammer cocked.

Wouldn't feel much better with a Sig.

loplop
April 1, 2007, 07:49 AM
When you decock a SIG the hammer will sit at the safety intercept notch. This will prevent it from falling inadvertently. In SA mode, you don't have that.

Also, I am not certain if the firing pin safety is engaged in SA mode; I haven't yet detail stripped any of my SIGs to look at the mechanism.

I'm sure a "SIGspert" here will have better input... But carrying cocked and not locked is idiotic, IMO. I carried a 1911 for years, no way would I carry unlocked. A short, simple trigger pull later and BLAM.

Due to the annoying "cannot carry in a place that serves liquor" I was reholstering my Kahr PM9 one evening after dinner. Just the wrong set of circumstances saw my finger slip into the trigger guard just as the muzzle dipped into the holster. I luckily felt this happening, and it was a non issue.

With a SA pull I would have had lead in my leg. :(

jlh26oo
April 1, 2007, 08:41 AM
Too much potential for a minor handling flub, a mistake during draw, anything, and...

But carrying cocked and not locked is idiotic, IMO. I carried a 1911 for years, no way would I carry unlocked. A short, simple trigger pull later and BLAM.

wrong set of circumstances saw my finger slip into the trigger guard just as the muzzle dipped into the holster.



I'm with you guys 100% on all of the above.

imo ALL of these differences are incremental steps along a trigger weight & travel distance continuum. Just as WE are comfortable with the level of safety of the GLOCK trigger, yet "know" tda carried in sa mode is unsafe- it's merely a similar step down from the GLOCK/XD to the (longer) kahr or some true DAO autos and revolvers.

Nothing magic happens at any of these steps*. Comfort level will vary, obviously putting us at different comfort spots on the continuum. While most of us are in the middle- will carry condition 0 on precocked type action (or c&l)- others are uncomfortable with a loaded GLOCK, and want a extra level of safety (these guys get berated needlessly I guess is my point); still others have the swingers to carry a tda cocked without a safety.

*loplop- if what you say is true though, and the drop safety is rendered inoperable in sa mode, then that is an altogether dffernt step and does address my question as to why the analogy breaks down at that point, and cannot be extended (revolver:glock::glock:cockedSig). Maybe then a comparison could be a hypothetical s80 1911 without a manual safety vs xd. Both drop safe and both would require SOMETHING moving the trigger. They even both have grip safeties, and are SA. ONly difference is weight and travel distance... ie boils down to how big of a "flub" you're willing to risk.

bofe954
April 1, 2007, 10:20 AM
I think the Glock's trigger safety would provide SOME extra protection from an AD vs. a cocked Sig. If the trigger were touched by something other than your finger, like part of your holster when holstering etc. It would have to activate that trigger safety, not just part of the trigger. Not that it would be impossible for that to happen but I would say it is less likely. This would also apply to a drop that included some hit to the trigger.

I think that comparing the argument of the glock trigger = revo trigger so glock trigger = Sig trigger cocked is valid BUT...The glock trigger is lighter with a shorter pull than a revolver's (like you mention), and a Sig SA pull is lighter than a revolvers and the glocks pull.

Plus you are inactivating safeties with the Sig by carrying cocked, you aren't doing this with a Glock.

You could make this argument for carrying a 1911 with no thumb safety activated as well. In fact the 1911 may be a little safer due to the grip safety. As long as you holstered with the grip safety inactivated it could be pretty safe.

You should be trying to carry the safest way that is reasonable. Which for the glock is chambered, Sig is decocked, 1911 is chambered, safety on.

Any of these methods would be effective if technique was perfect and no accidents occured.

Dienekes
April 1, 2007, 10:46 PM
No thanks.

There was reportedly an SAS outfit that tended to carry their BHPs in condition zero, but not much info of when or what their experiences with that were. The alleged justification was the very small and hard to hit safety. The logical solution would be one with a decent shelf like the currently produced ones, but back then that was probably not yet with us.

I do remember once in my young and stupid phase losing control of a cocked and unlocked 1911 and seeing it head for the ground. Time really slows up when you watch that thing travel and wonder what it will do when it lands. I will never know if the grip safety was what kept it from going off, but I for one have been rather fond of the device ever since. Nothing wrong with a little redundancy now and then. Murphy's Law and all that.

waynedm
April 2, 2007, 12:41 AM
I guess it wouldn't worry me all that much as long as we're dealing with a series 80 design, IE a gun with a firing pin block safety. A gun with a firing pin block can't go off without pulling the trigger, even if the sear somehow lets go.

strambo
April 2, 2007, 01:23 PM
There's one more problem in addition to the excelent comments above. In really high stress situations as the adrenaline hits and fine motor skills degrade, there is also a subconscious tendency to place your finger on the trigger when you don't consciously mean to.

There have been a number of studies of LE officers showing this, they put their fingers on the trigger subconsciously and reported later that they hadn't. I have experienced this myself in scenario training...my finger decided to go to the trigger (all by itself, honest!). A long, heavy DA pull, or a mechanical safety is another failsafe.

If you have never done any intense FoF or scenario training, do so and get it videotaped or have a good observer...training can take care of the premature trigger problem under stress...but if you've never done stressful training it is too easy to think you would never touch the trigger until ready to fire.

Also, problems where you need to shoot immediately don't show this tendency because you chose to fire as you are drawing. For LE, they get into a lot more drawn gun, don't end up shooting situations than civilians. A CCW holder drawing surrepititiously during a store robbery, getting ready to act if need be would be an example where the premature finger on the triggerunder stress could rear it's ugly head. I feel fine with DA/SA, DAO or SA safety on. Not cocked and unlocked. I train for perfection (finger never on trigger until ready to fire) but select my equipment based on real world factors including my own psychology and capacity to err.

Travis McGee
April 2, 2007, 10:02 PM
Strambo: BUllseye.

Ichiro
April 2, 2007, 10:29 PM
If you've ever had a gun fall out of a holster, you can appreciate the long and heavy trigger pull of a DAO revolver.

There's always a chance that a trigger will snag, and nobody is perfect every time, all the time.

Longer and heavier trigger pulls are safer.

loplop
April 3, 2007, 08:06 AM
Good post, strambo.

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