[45R]

I was talking to an old co-worker the other day. I havent spoken to him in nearly a year. He had called me out of the blue. After about 1/2 hour I asked him if he did any shooting still. Turns out he use to be a Oakland Police Officer. He was shot in the shoulder by a perp which ended his career. :(

I candidly asked him about CCW in CA. He was somewhat opposed to it saying that the "average" citizen has no need for a CCW stating that unless your selling diamonds or hucking around large amounts of cash you dont need a concealed weapon. :confused: Hence the argument that the average citizen is not smart enough to be carrying a handgun.

Since he is a friend I decided to engage more into this conversation.

Why not I asked:

Friend: Well the amount of violent crimes would go up........

45R: How would this happen?

FRIEND: Well for example. Lets say Average Citizen is walking around and Joey Drug Dealer happens to see Mr. "AC"'s gun. Joey The Drug Dealer is going to follow Mr. "AC" to his car and beat him over the head and take his gun.

45R:So the average citizen that has passed his backround checks, taken all the tests that would be needed to carry would not be smart enough to see Joey the Drug Dealer coming for his gun.

Friend: Joey the Drug dealer is too smart for the "Average Joe"
CCW states like Texas are very strict on crime is all about capitol punishment and therefore crime in those states are going to be less. :rolleyes:

After a lengthy conversation I was tired of his elitist attitude and the "I know more than you" spagehtti getting thrown on a clean wall.

I need some sources on CCW carry and the decrease in crime rates to change his mind. He's a good friend and I'd like to change that little attitude of his since he is fairly open minded.

The fact that Mr. Average Citizen that owns a CCW is not smart enough to defend himself when confronted by "Joey the Drug Dealer" is beyond me, but this dilema goes a little further since he was shot in the line of duty.

THR Formites: Were can I find the facts!


TIA

45R

[Gordon Fink]

Under current California “law”:

Permit holders must undergo training and qualify with their handguns. This must be repeated whenever the permit is renewed, I believe.

Concealed means concealed. If the weapon is not concealed, then the citizen is probably more at risk of arrest than of an unfavorable encounter with a drug dealer.

~G. Fink

[Duncan Idaho]

You asked what would make violent crime increase with concealed carry. Your friend (in order to cover his falsehood) changed the argument by making sure that the gun in his example wasn't concealed.FRIEND: Well for example. Lets say Average Citizen is walking around and Joey Drug Dealer happens to see Mr. "AC"'s gun. Joey The Drug Dealer is going to follow Mr. "AC" to his car and beat him over the head and take his gun.That, plus other experience that you have with him, should tell you all that you will ever need to know about his intellect, or worse, his honesty.

You could play the same game with him though, and tell him that another CCW holder just spotted Joey sneaking up on Mr. "AC" with a club, and is going to use his CCW to stop Joey.

[TallPine]

FRIEND: Well for example. Lets say Average Citizen is walking around and Joey Drug Dealer happens to see Mr. "AC"'s gun. Joey The Drug Dealer is going to follow Mr. "AC" to his car and beat him over the head and take his gun.

Well for example. Lets say Average Citizen is walking around and Joey Drug Dealer happens to see Mr. "AC"'s car. Joey The Drug Dealer is going to follow Mr. "AC" to his car and beat him over the head and take his car.

So therefore, no "average citizen" should be allowed to own a car.

[Glamdring]

Well, like I mentioned at my CCW class, the only people I have made were off duty/plain clothes LEO. They tend to print or adjust gun all the time. They don't really need to hide. Fact is I have almost called the cops on LEO a couple of times, till I found out they were off duty LEO themselves.

Generally the rest of us have to work much harder at concealing because we get in trouble IF spotted.

Now more than once I could tell that someone WAS carrying (because I KNOW they do not because they printed). For example, when I worked at a bookstore one time I met a couple that had been to Thunder Ranch. He was wearing a jacket with Thunder Ranch logo on it and I asked if he had been there. Oh yeah, you couldn't SEE a gun, but both him and his wife were wearing Fanny Packs ;)

[Partisan Ranger]

Funny how The Founding Fathers, some of the most wise and brilliant man who ever walked God's earth, saw fit to trust their fellow Americans with our God-given rights, but many people walking around these days do not. :rolleyes:

[willyjixx]

your friend being a police officer that was in injured in the line of duty probably has made him very cynical an bitter. especially if the perp got away. now imagine his fear of all the "Citizens" that could be packing? he wouldnt know who was a "Good Citizen" an who was a criminal. it looks to me that in his eyes anyone carrying a concealed weapon is a criminal.

BTW.... people who carry a CCW. how would you approach someone else who is carrying an is accidently flashing? would yuo tactfully approach an tell?

also i wish CW classes an training would assist more in the holster an training department of carrying. still a very big paranoia i have. meaning im constantly pulling the bottom of my shirt out of paranoia!

anyone else go through that?

[NukemJim]

I need some sources on CCW carry and the decrease in crime rates to change his mind.

Try www.guncite.com also www.jpfo.org

Good luck

NukemJim

[Standing Wolf]

People who distrust law-abiding American citizens aren't trustworthy themselves.

[JohnKSa]

Leave him alone.

Theres a contingent amongst the LEO community that believes that LEOs are INTRINSICALLY superior to the average citizen.

As demonstrated by a quote by the Greenville, TX police chief that was published in the Greenville Herald Banner during the period that TX was debating the concealed carry issue.

He said:

"No amount of training will make a citizen safe with a gun."

A VERY stupid thing to say if you consider he is the chief of a department of "trained citizens" who carry guns every day. But if you think about it, you can see where he's coming from. He's saying that those police officers aren't just trained citizens. He clearly feels that they're somehow superior to citizens in a way that has nothing to do with their training...

How can you argue with a person like that????

[CB900F]

45R;

As to your request, I'd recommend you get a copy of John R. Lott, Jr's, work: More Guns, Less Crime. I have a first edition, and I understand that there is now an updated 2nd edition available.

Dr. Lott taught Criminal Deterrence, and Law and Economics at the University of Chicago. He was the John M. Olin Visiting Law and Economics Fellow while teaching there.

I'd also suggest looking at Dr. Gary Kleck's work. He is or was a professor of criminology at Florida State University.

Hope this helps, 900F

[WingZero]

I would suggest reading anything about gun control and CCW statistics. The two things that come to mind first is: any article (about the above subject) written by Dr. John R. Lott Jr. http://www.tsra.com/LottPage.htm (here's a good start),
I would check out "The Seven Myths of Gun Control" written by Richard Poe, and I would just try doing some late night web surfing on the subject.
Hope this helps.
SRF.

[DJJ]

How about "Did the guy who shot you have a permit? Didn't seem to hinder him too much, did it?"

Or, "I guess the fact that you got shot proves Joey the Drug Dealer was too smart for you, too."

Or, "Then what's to stop Joey the Drug Dealer from following you and taking your gun?"

[bunghole]

I candidly asked him about CCW in CA. He was somewhat opposed to it saying that the "average" citizen has no need for a CCW stating that unless your selling diamonds or hucking around large amounts of cash you dont need a concealed weapon.

It's funny how some people feel that property is more valuable than human life. :rolleyes:

[Elmer Snerd]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?&threadid=16678