[Tearlachblair]

So I was about my usual hobbies one day -- perusing firearms sites, when a girl I know who isn't 21 yet mentioned she liked the NAA mini revolvers, but couldn't buy one yet. I casually mentioned that there were BP versions available that looked just like them.

Me and my big mouth.:uhoh:

So now she wants the BP version! The positive side to this is this is the first interest she has really shown in firearms, and since she will be moving into her own apartment soon, it would be nice if she had something for SD (already going to get her a long gun for a housewarming present). So here it is -- is the NAA bp .22 as good as their other .22s for SD? Let the conflicting opinions fly. :) ;)


http://www.conjay.com/_borders/NAA_M_004.jpg

[BigBlock]

Uhh...no .22 is good for self defense. It's a toy.

[AntiqueCollector]

A .22 can be used for self defense. It's all about where you hit with it that matters.

[DrLaw]

BigBlock Uhh...no .22 is good for self defense. It's a toy

Then why are more people are killed with .22's than any other type of gun in civilian life. I don't mean to flame here, but a .22 will kill as dead as a .44 will kill. Depends on where you are hit, granted, but they do kill more people, purposely and accidentally than any other caliber.

Trivia note. Curly - aka Jerome Howard - of the Three Stooges walked with a limp on some of the shows because as a kid he managed to get a .22 in the ankle while climbing a fence with a gun. His ankle never healed completely enough to prevent it from hurting sometimes when he walked.

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[sansone]

I would have to vote no for 22 as self defense weapon

[Afy]

You might want to look at a BP muzzleloading shotgun...

[BigBlock]

It's all about where you hit with it that matters.

So are you telling me a 20 year old or less girl with no shooting experience is going to get a kill shot with a .22 on her first try, using a tiny inaccurate gun with a low muzzle velocity? I think not. Not to mention there's only 5 shots in there and it takes a very long time to reload. She'd be better off keeping a few rocks in her pocket to throw.

Regardless of how many people .22s kill, it is NOT a self defense weapon. Someone tweaked out on meth could easily take all 5 shots to the chest and keep going.

[gpr]

i got a lr...1 1/8 barrel for christmas....i hit the 2x2 paper one of six at 25 feet....up the bad guy's nose as a last resort....more fun and cute and it fits the belt buckel...i would not have a cozzy, fuzzey feeling, if that was all i had in my pocket....but then some times i feel under gunned with a 6 rounds of 380....gpr

[wdlsguy]

If it has to be a BP revolver, how about a nice .36 or .44?

[BigBlock]

If it has to be a BP revolver, how about a nice .36 or .44?

Indeed. A .44 Remington costs about the same and WILL stop whatever you point it at.

[AntiqueCollector]

So are you telling me a 20 year old or less girl with no shooting experience is going to get a kill shot with a .22 on her first try, using a tiny inaccurate gun with a low muzzle velocity? I think not. Not to mention there's only 5 shots in there and it takes a very long time to reload. She'd be better off keeping a few rocks in her pocket to throw.

Regardless of how many people .22s kill, it is NOT a self defense weapon. Someone tweaked out on meth could easily take all 5 shots to the chest and keep going.

Well I would hope she practices with it and gets decent aim.

And .22's are a self defense gun, some of the earliest .22's were derringers specifically made for self-defense.

I'd certainly prefer a .36 or .44 or even .31 over .22, but a .22 would be okay in many situations, and such tiny guns fit almost anywhere for conceal carry, unlike my Colt 1851.

[BigBlock]

If you read the post the gun is for home protection. There isn't a worse choice than a .22 black powder for home protection. Even the .22 cartridge would be more powerful and reliable, but it would still be a worthless gun for home defense. It doesn't matter how much you practice, it doesn't change the size of a .22 projectile, nor does it change the fact that tweakers keep going with bullets in their chest.

If you manage to stop an attacker with a .22, you got lucky. That's it. And if you die in the process, I guess you're unlucky.

[AntiqueCollector]

Well, he also said "already going to get her a long gun for a housewarming present".

I still say a .22 is suitable for self defense, just not my first choice. My first choice handgun is still the 1851 Navy, favorite defense rifle an SKS. :D

[sm]

So here it is -- is the NAA bp .22 as good as their other .22s for SD? Let the conflicting opinions fly.

NO.

1. Proper training begins with Four Rules of Safety, Her personal gut wrenching brutal honesty as to whether she could pull the trigger in defense of herself, educating herself with applicable laws and regulations in the use of deadly force.

Get her the Four Rules of Safety, State Regs, books by authors such as Massad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Gila Hayes...
and arm her with knowledge first.

Ladies do better with Ladies - turn her over/introduce her to a lady. One that is a shooter, has CCW and better yet will invite her to a NRA course, Self Defense - anything!

2. Learning to shoot with a .22 revolver is what I prefer to do with new students, because I will also introduce them to a Medium Frame .38spl revolver, most likely a 4" barrel, if not at least a 3" barrel.

I will again start with a .22 semi auto, then transition to a medium size 9mm handgun of various platforms. Honest, I like the BHP to be the first one.

3. Used Police Trade-in dedicated .38spls , such as the proven Model 10 - is one of the BEST first handguns any shooter should have.
My experience has been, between a 1911, a BHP and K frame, hands will fit one of these guns.
Kframes, being used trade-ins, and easy to get various stocks for - makes fitting to shooter a snap.

4. NAA .22 mini, in any configuration is an "Advanced Tool" in the toolbox IMO.

5. .22 rim-fire, I know for a fact has stopped immediate threats.
These defensive rounds were fired from Medium Frame revolvers with 4" barrels, Semi-Autos with 4" barrels, and various rifles such as the Marlin 60.

NO. The .22 rim-fire is not the best defensive round.

That said, if a teenager only has a .22 revolver, an injured person can only comfortably shoot a .22 semi-auto, the person under doctors orders is NOT allowed recoil , the geriatric with such Osteo that the Dr, says any recoil will break a neck, back and similar, the .22 rifles will stop an immediate threat.

NAA mini revolvers are very nice guns! They are made like a Swiss mechanical watch. They make great gifts and yes, even gifts to kids, from parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles.

These kids, even as young as age 5 can recite The Four Rules of Safety.
They have been under Adult Supervision and had "training" with BB guns, and .22 revolvers like J frame sized and K frame size, and semi auto's like Ruger Standard Model, Colt Woodsman, High Standard Duramatic, and Buckmark.

They also have single action .22 rifles that fit them from Pink Crickets, to whatever.

Pretty, Cute, Neat, So Special, Cool, Sentimental and other names are used to describe the NAA Mini these kids have and are theirs, just kept in a safe for them.

Adults have parented, and continue to parent these kids. Levels of understanding vary depending on kid, age and stage of development.

Just my take .

Steve

[mike101]

I have the Mag. version of the Companion. The first time I fired it, the bullets bounced off of the wet phonebook I was firing at. Most keyholed. The ones that didn't managed to penetrate about an inch into the book. NAA doesn't take this gun seriously. Huge quality control problems, as opposed to the cartridge versions.

The first time I loaded the gun, and put it in my pocket, 3 of the bullets FELL OUT, along with the powder. I sent it back and they replaced the cylinder. Then I tried firing it for the first time. I already told you about that. The bore in the crappy cast barrel was too wide. I sent it out and had a forged barrel put on it, that actually has some rifling. Just got it back, and haven't had a chance to fire it yet.

However, I discovered since then that most people use smokeless powder in these things. Bullseye was the favorite, but now I'm hearing of people getting good results with Accurate Arms #2. I have some Bullseye, so that's what I'll be using. Everyone is claiming 1200-1300fps with smokeless, through a chronograph.

If you get one of these, get the larger one, and use smokeless. Personally, I would get the .22 mag. cartridge version, with the 1 5/8" barrel.

As far as a .22 being deadly, I've seen plenty of pictures of skulls of people, shot in the head with .22 LR. Small hole going in, half-dollar size hole coming out. And it's true. Other than in war, more people have been killed with .22's than any other caliber.

Still, though, if you want to get her a BP revolver, for defense, don't screw around. Get a Ruger Old Army. They are strong and reliable. The Italian guns break too damn much. And, the shiney one with the ivory grip is pretty cute.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=1412&return=Y


There is a thread on NAA's website about this right now.

http://www.naaminis.com/discus/messages/2/3743.html?1175457112

:D

[floridaboy]

I can't speak about the NAA bp .22 But I did see a grown man shot in the abdomen with a 5 1/2" .22 revolver loaded with Winchester a T22 short. One shot and all he wanted was a good surgeon. It nicked an artery near his spleen, turned and penetrated up to his ribs, where it stopped just under the skin. He damn near bled out and died. While I wouldn't choose a .22 of any sort for defence if I had options, I would sure prefer it over throwing rocks.

[mike101]

Kirst Konverter makes a cartridge conversion cylinder for a number of black powder revolvers, including the Old Army, in 45 colt. MUCH BETTER choice than a .22.

www.kirstkonverter.com

[bad LT]

Under federal law, she cannot buy a handgun from a FFL. However, she can still buy a handgun in a face to face transfer. Perhaps 200-300 dollars toward a quality used revolver or semi-auto would be well spent.

Also, one can buy longuns when over 18.

[Double Naught Spy]

NAA .22 BP good for self defense or plinking? The .22 rimfire isn't great and it is ever worse out of a very short barrel. I suspect BP will be less reliable as well. Additionally, NAA guns like the one posted are not great plinking guns, in regard to consistent accuracy and marksmanship. They can be tough to make perform well at anything but very short range.

And .22's are a self defense gun, some of the earliest .22's were derringers specifically made for self-defense.

They might have been made for SD, but that doesn't mean that they were very good for SD. Similarly, the Chauchat was a machinegun made for use on the front lines of WWI, but it sucked in that role.

Then why are more people are killed with .22's than any other type of gun in civilian life. I don't mean to flame here, but a .22 will kill as dead as a .44 will kill.

So will old age, but waiting for your attacker to die of natural causes isn't a very good defense tool.

Being dead or not is binary. Either you are or you are not. There is no degree of being more dead or less dead. So anything lethal will kill you just as dead. It doesn't mean that it will kill better or quicker.

So why more folks are killed with .22s than other guns? Simple, there are more out there. Those are gross stats, not relative. I believe if you will go back and check those stats again, you will find that .22 lr has a relative survival rate that is much higher than most other calibers.

[WeedWhacker]

ANY gun, including a .22, is better than no gun... including, as someone else stated, rocks in a pocket.

Certainly .22 calibre firearms are not as effective as most other calibres, but it is still deadly and far and away better than any other tool on the planet when it comes to self-defense.

As for there only being five shots: practice.

However, if she is "old enough" to own a pistol, but just can't buy one from an FFL, as bad LT stated, buy one from a private party.

[DixieTexian]

It wouldn't be ideal, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be less effective. In a home defense situation, she probably wouldn't be shooting at ranges of more than 5 or maybe ten feet. It would work just fine there. But, like others said, a personal transaction is legal for an 18 year old.

[Double Naught Spy]

Let's put things another way. Tearlachblair, if your daughter can shoot a NAA Mini pretty well, then she can handle a .32 or .38 revolver. She might do fine with 9mm or .39 Spl as well.

Do you really want your daughter trying to defend her own life with one of the least powerful cartridges available to her even if she has the capability of handling something more substantial that would likely perform better for her in a crisis?

[sundance44s]

I would have to say ..she would be better off pointing an unloaded 1858 Remington at an intruder ...It looks like a large frame modern revolver thats enough to stop a grown man . The tiny 22 ...well it`s just not serious enough ...and there`s a good chance it will just piss off someone shot with it .... I pissed off a Rabbid coon one time with 3 shots to the head with a 22 rifle ... If the 4th shot between his eyes hadden`t stopped him I would have been bitten . Here`s a better Idea ..buy a 1858 Remington and a conversion cylinder ...legal for her , and a 45 cowboy load ..makes a big hole ...and a very dependable pistol .

[mike101]

Get the Ruger, and a conversion cylinder, and you won't have to use a Cowboy load. Federal makes a nice LHPSWC round that's good for 900-1000 fps (within cowboy specs). She could also go with something a bit more powerful, like Cor Bon. Don't try this in an Italian gun, though.

Something I never understood. If she can buy a gun from a private individual, the transfer still has to go through a FFL holder. Why can't she just buy one from a FFL? It makes zero sense, like most gun laws.

I would still look on www.Gunsamerica.com, or somewhere, and go for a quality used DA revolver. Maybe a Ruger Speed Six, or SP101. They are about as fool proof as they come, and the prices are quite reasonable. Also, get stainless steel, whatever you get. I don't know how diligent women generally are about keeping guns clean, and the Rugers break down very easily.

[DrLaw]

Practice will make for almost perfect.

My last word on this topic comes from a news story out of east central Iowa this morning. An 8-year old boy was killed by a B-B gun. The shot entered the boy's eye. What happened exactly was not released. Apparently it must have gotten into his brain. Anything can kill. It should always be the last resort to have to kill. I had the opportunity once as a police officer to shoot and it would have been justified (man with shotgun). I didn't. He stayed alive and I do not have nightmares. I was very lucky and I hope that everybody else here can stay just as lucky. Unfortunately, criminals don't care what they do or who they do it to. I have to go to court in about 15 minutes to deal with a fellow who blew off his probation on a DUI wreck where he almost killed another guy.

If it comes down to it, you want to be the one standing.

Practice.

The Doc is out now and putting on his tie. :cool:

[DixieTexian]

I still think that if she takes one of them little suckers and shoves it in an intruders belly before pulling the trigger, he is gonna be in for one heck of a surprise. That and his shirt will be on fire. Up close and personal, it would work and an intruder may not even realize she is holding it. I think a normal person would go into shock at something like this and at least give her a chance for escape. Of course, I am coming at this from the idea that maybe someone is trying to rape her and she is already up close and personal. A bigger gun would be better, but if she isn't into guns that much, the mini revolver might get her more interested and she may want to buy somehting bigger in the future. It's just a stepping stone.

[Tinker2]

Tearlachblair

“mentioned she liked the NAA mini revolvers”
By all means get her one.

“but couldn't buy one yet”

Leave her one of your old suit coats to put in her closet, I
don’t always empty all my pockets.

“this is the first interest she has really shown in firearms”

YES, YES don’t pass up this chance to help someone get into
the firearm sport.

Get her ear plugs / muffs take her out and teach her what
you know about safety, and how to shoot.

Watch for the twinkle in their eyes and the smile on their face.

“So here it is -- is the NAA bp .22 as good as their other .22s
for SD?”

My opinion mind you. NO black powder gun would be
my first choice for self-defense.

As far as .22 go I can see a self-defense guns in that caliber.
I don’t start people out with a big noisy boomer that makes
their hands go numb, well maybe some guys I know.

If you are comfortable, confident, and competent with what
you have, that’s what counts. It may lead to more guns.
good luck.



Tinker2

[boredelmo]

Well if thats the only thing shes willing to buy, then so be it.

But let her know its like bringing a butter knife to sparta!

[arcticap]

I think that if she buys an NAA it would be making a mistake, especially because she's just beginning to express an interest in firearms and it would be her first gun, and if she finds that she doesn't like it, then she could be turned off to guns entirely.
It such a small size pistol that's difficult to manipulate, load and shoot well, that she needs the best advice regarding how to proceed into the sport. If the best advice were to wait until she can get a real .22 rimfire, then she should be given the opportunity to wait and get something that she will really enjoy for many years into the future. That's why encouraging her to buy an NAA would be a mistake in my opinion. There's just so many better choices of guns out there for a reasonable price, that the money spent on a NAA could be much better spent.
If it was my wife (who's a non-shooter), or one of my children, I would give the advice to wait to buy a better and more fun shooting gun in the near future, even if she has to wait until she's 21.
I'm also a big fan of .22 lr's, and IMO a real .22 would be a much better choice to learn pistol shooting with and to use for self-defense. ;)

[.cheese.]

slightly OT: I heard that .22 is incredibly deadly because it ricochets off bones and causes more damage that way.

I don't tend to believe it (my BS meter is shouting "red alert"), but who knows.

[mike101]

A .38 special won't be any harder on her than a .22, in a DA revolver, and it will make a bigger hole in "the threat". :D

[boredelmo]

The economist: I heard the same in regards being shot in the head through an eye socket/nose what have you. Basically it enters your heard and bounces around because it wont exit your skull.

Who knows.

[Tearlachblair]

WOW, guys, thanks for the replies on here! As for my question for SD, I meant that more as a sideline (sorry, should have emphasized that) since obviously I will be getting her a longer gun for HD and car carry. This would only do in a pinch, and I'm getting it for her more as a fun gun than anything else. What I am really curious about is how it stacks up powerwise compared to the OTHER NAA minis, and if it's reliable.

[mike101]

Judging by the one I have, It doesn't stack up against a .22 short, with black powder. Quality control, as I said, seems to be a problem, but only for the BP minis. Everybody raves about the cartridge minis.

Unless you want to spend a little extra money on a new barrel, and use smokeless powder, it's pretty much a toy. The facrory, cast barrel is really awful. I'd wait until she's 21 and get her a .22 Mag. Mini, 1 5/8" barrel. Then have a smith put a 3" barrel on it. She might actually hit something. Or go to NAA's site, and show her the Mini Master 4" barrel. She might think that's cute, with it's little vent-rib barrel, and all. :D

[mike101]

"As far as a .22 being deadly, I've seen plenty of pictures of skulls of people, shot in the head with .22 LR. Small hole going in, half-dollar size hole coming out"

From post 15:D

[DixieTexian]

I have shot trapped wild hogs from just a few feet in between the eyes with a .22 rifle, and sometimes the bullet exits in a complete different direction.