birdshot for defense

[cra2]

I'm NOT trying to create yet another "this caliber/shell/gun is better than that one" thread. lol.

I just wanna know if anyone has links to actual perfomance data of birdshot against humans. Police stats, FBI stats, whatever.

I already know, due to the almighty box o' truth, that it's not as likely to reach vitals. I wanna know what effect, if any, it has on those who are shot.
Not anecdotes or opinions, please. Just data.

thanks

[quatin]

It's all over the forums, you should do a search.
Here's one someone else refered to.
http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/Understanding-Payload-and-Gauge-Size-Page2.htm

He is talking about doves, but he did do a ballistics gel test.

[imprezagm4]

Nasty wound, but most likely won't stop a motivated attacker.

[cra2]

quatim -
did a search.
maybe not thorough enuff.
didn't find any links to performance data vs humans.
I'm not talking about killing doves or shooting jello pudding pops out of Bill Cosby's hands.

thanks

and, imprezagm4, uh.... did you even read the original post?
lol.

[imprezagm4]

I already know, due to the almighty box o' truth, that it's not as likely to reach vitals. I wanna know what effect, if any, it has on those who are shot.

Sure did... and I'm pretty sure I gave an answer. I'm not a doctor, but this is what I have heard from people in the field. That is real people with real experience, rather than a block of gelatin. :)

[cra2]

imprezagm4,
guess you've got selective memory.

"links to actual performance data"
"no anecdotes or opinions please"

[Chuck R.]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pagerender.fcgi?artid=1238294&pageindex=1#page

Chuck

[Geno]

Don't know that 4 shot would make much difference versus 00 buckshot at 10 feet, because a pattern would not be developing by such a distance. Either, it seems, would be horridly effective.

[News Shooter]

(Don't look for any science here)

All my life I've used shotguns for bird and clay hunting and I've never shot anything up close enough to see what really happens. (Except for cowboy steel)

Yesterday I was out at my club and there was still ice on the pond so I took a couple of shots at it with a 12 guage coach gun with #9 shot.From about fifty feet or so away I couldn't even see the hit. Then I got up close to the edge of the bank and fired from about 20 feet away.

All I can is that I personally wouldn't want to be in the path of that stuff. It really punched a hole.

I was also a little shocked at how small the spread was..about the size of a salad plate. I would have figured that a coach gun would have spread out more

[cra2]

THANK YOU, Chuck R.
Looks like an interesting read.

Though it looks like it came from the 70's, I don't know if there's anything more current on the subject.

[Lee Lapin]

Ummmm...

Data.

Let's see. How to do this...

Data.

So- what do most police agencies and the FBI issue to their people who are issued shotguns- birdshot or buckshot?

And how (not to mention why) are police agencies and the FBI gonna collect data on ammo they don't issue?

Sorry, that's the best I can do.

lpl/nc

Edited to add: Ah- if one case is in fact data and not anecdote, then here is a case involving birdshot to go along with the one you have accumulated so far involving buckshot. See
http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/173_11_041200/herdson/herdson.html .

Also: http://www.polyshok.com/journal_of_forensic_sciences.htm

[Reddbecca]

I wanna know what effect, if any, it has on those who are shot.
Not anecdotes or opinions, please. Just data.

Is Harry Whittington good enough data?

[cra2]

"And how (not to mention why) are police agencies and the FBI gonna collect data on ammo they don't issue?"

they (or some other agency) collect data on people who use shotguns to commit crimes. Whether or not they keep data on the results of those crimes (ie. shootings) is not something I know. Which is why I'm asking.
I've seen similar data posted regarding handgun ammo that was used AGAINST officers and civilians.

"Edited to add: Ah- if one case is in fact data and not anecdote."

No, one instance does not provide statistical data.

[cra2]

reddbecca,
I dunno.
What's a harry whittington?

[Oohrah]

DISTANCE. DISTANCE, DISTANCE Close up to short distance in a
room you could miss. The shot collum is like a single 1 1/2 slug.
It will go through walls if no studs involved. Most departments
use 00 Buck that contain 9 to 12, 33 cal. lead balls. Multiple
hits are likely to be fatal. Bird shot collums close up can be fatal
depending it is centered in vital area. Even at fifty feet it mostly
hurts enough to take aggression to a lesser level.:)

[Reddbecca]

What's a harry whittington?

He's the one that Dick Cheney shot in the face. He survived too even though the birdshot got at his heart and caused a cardiac event.

[RyanM]

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

Actual data. Note, the author's gelatin calibrates way deep. 12" penetration in ideal gelatin = 18" penetration in his gelatin. So 18" is the minimum acceptable penetration, for his data.

[Lee Lapin]

Hey, just trying to help- you set the conditions of the question that anecdote was not data, then got all happy over one article involving one shooting case. How am I supposed to know what constitutes anecdote and what constitutes data when it seems sorta variable? 8^)

Anyway, I cited two more forensic articles for you FWIW.

As to FBI and other police agency data re. shotgun use, I have looked for years, reviewing as much published (print) data as I could get hands on for birdshot vs. buckshot performance, with success so far limited to the occasional article or court transcript regarding individual cases of crime and/or suicide. So far I have struck out pretty dismally.

If it matters, I am a retired reference librarian and my wife is an assistant professor teaching criminology at a local university. I can't say that what you are looking for is not available, just that I haven't found it so far...

Hope you do better at this than I have,

lpl/nc

[sm]

Lee Lapin's posts, please read again.

No Holy Grail.

Due to confidentiality I am limited on what I can share:

White male, ~ 6' 1', 180# DRT from bird shot fired from a .410 single shot
Contact distance.
[barrel pushed attacker back, when he lunged again with a butcher knife, trigger pulled.]


Black Male, ~ 6'3" 230# came into ED, then OR where I was.
Madder than hell his clothes were ruined.
Finally anesthesia kicked in and he shut up!

9 pellets of 00 buck fired from "across the room" which we later found out was ~ 12 steps [officer said call it 12 yards]

Gun did not cycle the second shotgun shell.

Pay attention please.

This was a 11-87 that had been whacked with a hacksaw to ~ 18", meaning no choke.
Shells were a premium copper-plated buckshot with buffering.

Only 4 pellets actually hit this Big Guy, his clothes took one or maybe two.
"Pattern" was all over the damn place, shoulder to lower leg.

Shooter died from a single gunshot wound from a snub nosed .38spl with a 158 gr LRN "bargain load".

From 20 feet, and hit just above the nose. This DOA went to another hospital for organ harvest.
Lady shot the shooter.

The reason the 11-87 did not cycle again, as I shared with officers , is the barrel was too short for dwell timing.
Sure enough, when officers stuck a factory bbl on this gun, it cycled and fired as it should.

No data per se', just some of us have real world experiences and observations.

[tdultima]

reddbecca,
I dunno.
What's a harry whittington?

http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8238/harrypepperedbl3.jpg

[cra2]

that's nasty tdultima, lol.

I wonder if that dropped him, knocked him out, or if he just laffed it off.

My question about birdshot is in regards to what effect it has on the attacker.
Not necessarily whether they died or not, later on.

Massad Ayoob or someone reported, as a cop, that some perp took 5-10 shots from a .45 and was still walking. Another said the same about the .40, and another about the 9mm. And I don't think the perp was drugged in any of those cases. So we can all quote stories about guys dropping from .22s or not dropping from .357s.

But I wonder if there's any data on what usually happens when someone's shot with birdshot. I know they likely lived, but do they fall to the ground crying 90% of the time? lol.

[benelli12]

For HOME defense where the distance is under 10yds most of the time, I am 100% confident in certain types of Birdshot. Not just any birdshot will do for me, like the 1oz shot with 3dram. powder, I do not have much confidence in this load.

But anything in the 1 1/4oz that has 3 3/4 dram. of powder or more I think is fine. I have no data on the wounds that this type of round can inflict but I have shot MANY different things with it. Ive shot trees, bowling pins, stacked boards, milkjugs, watermellons, bricks, you name it. I have found this type of magnum birdshot worthy for HD. But for longer ranges that are 20 yards and up, buckshot is probably a better choice.

Here is a sight with various shotgun loads tested in ballistics gelatin http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

I dont have personal data other than my own experiments...

just my .02

[cra2]

benelli12,
do you find that your experiments were in line with what www.theboxotruth.com reported about various shotgun loads?

[sm]

Too many variables.

We had a guy stick a .357 in his mouth and pull the trigger on a .357 loading...he lived, still is last I heard.

Drunk, stoned, high on PCP, Medical Reactions...too many variables.
LEO I know have said a PCP hyped up 5'10" 125 male took 3 big LEO to get him "settled".

I was doing a rotation in private mental health clinic, 13 year old young lady , probably did not weigh 90#'s knocked over a male Dr., 6' 1' and 180# and was making a beeline to escape down a corridor.

"Stop her!" they yelled.

I am 6' 170 #, and I got down low, and she kept coming full bore, with both arms I"bear hugged" and I did lift her up...and then we went rodeo.
"Hold on - tight!" Security said running to aid

Like I was going to let go of this "wildcat".

She pushed us off corridor walls, I got her stomach onto my weak side shoulder...at the time it seemed like a good idea.

Hands pushed us off another wall...

She beat me upon my back with both hand, she kneed me in the chest, her feet...I am a guy and have parts down there...

Three security guards, and two off them got her legs and restrained them, then "turn around" I was doing the best I could, and I did not want to end up on the floor.

They got her hand, then she pushed off then , and pushed me down.
Once she was settled, in a padded room, I was still on the floor, back to wall "like what happened?"
Plumb wore out.

I was examined, checked out, and sheesh!
Should have seen the bruises and all I got, the third day after presented some real nice ones...

Seems she got a bit upset and the meds did not suit her very well...and she went ballistic.
I'll say.

Too many variables when it comes to what a person, or animal will do when force of any kind is used against them.

[TX1911fan]

I saw a Person Defense TV episode about this. They instructor at Gunsite said he recommends bird shot for HD. He shot a target at 10 feet, typical HD range, and it made a hole about 4 to 6 inches in diameter. Virtually no spread. I can't see how that wouldn't stop someone.