[Handy]

I had thought it was a black oxide that is done as part of the Tennifer quenching process, but was told that's wrong. Does anyone know?

The finish is not a polymer coating - it's too tough and the doesn't come off easily with barrel friction.

It can't be phosphate - phosphate or parkerizing is greyish in color and has a rough texture, regardless of the surface metal polish.

And it's not regular blue, because the barrel is Tennifer and therefore can't corrode, and blue is a type of controlled rust.

Not black chrome - that isn't durable, nor truly black.

Not anodized - that doesn't work on steel.


I can't think of anything else, so those who know, please let the rest of us in on the secret.

[Nero Steptoe]

It's black shoe polish that's integrated into the tenifering process.

[Handy]

Why did you post? You don't know anything on the topic, otherwise you would have said at one of the many other opportunities.

[Mastrogiacomo]

I really don't know but from what I've seen -- I'd say it's close to satin black. You might give the folks at Glock Talk a try at www.glocktalk.com or ask Glock themselves.

[Handy]

The answer I got was from Glocktalk, way back. Glocktalk attracts just as much junk as fact.

I may call Glock, I just wanted to hear from the experts (like Nero) before a made a call. Owen already proposed a suitable answer, but as it was similar to mine, must be wrong.:scrutiny:

[Mastrogiacomo]

You could also ask the folks at the Beretta forum at www.berettaforum.net

You'd be surprised how many own Glocks -- and may have more solid info for you. Worth a shot...

[bad_dad_brad]

Handy, not a clue about the outside of the barrel. I wonder about that myself.

It does burnish at friction points. I am pretty sure that the inside of the barrel is just tennifer treated carbon steel however.

Regardless, the tennifer process is that which counts, and makes the Glock one of the toughest modern pistols manufactured today.

So other than curiousity - who cares?

Glock is very reluctant to reveal proprietary manufacturing techniques.

[Handy]

So other than curiousity - who cares?

A good question. Why did you care enough to post, or even read the thread?

I think curiousity is a commendable reason.


And some people care alot. They get really upset when you ask questions like this.

[9x19]

I had thought it was a black oxide that is done as part of the Tennifer quenching process, but was told that's wrong.

I'm a bit curious how someone knew enough to discount your belief without knowing enough to offer the true answer.

Why do you believe such a person?

[Handy]

I don't. But one voice has less credibility.

[bad_dad_brad]

Handy,

Perhaps I used the wrong words. I am curious about the finish and do care about knowing what is used to complete the Glock barrel.

My only point was, after the tennifer application, the black finish is probably just cosmetic, since at friction points, there is immediate burnishing after use, and the Glock will be just as shootable, black or dull tennifer gray.

I love Glocks and do care about the knowledge of their sometimes mysterious construction. I stand corrected, only from the choice of words.

Sometimes, I think that Glock would be money ahead if they were a bit less cloak and dagger. I guess it is that weird sort of European thing.

[DonGlock26]

A reading from my Glock Armorer School Notes (angels sing in background). "Dull Black Finish-Phosphate treatment $45 to redo at factory."

[vanfunk]

I'm curious about the barrel finish, too. It certainly doesn't look like a phosphate finish, as the etching that takes place in that process leaves a tell-tale porous surface. The barrel of my Glock 23 shows almost a high polish, and it has a hint of that classic hot-blue glint and swirl of blue-black like old S&W revolvers. It does seem to wear fairly quickly.

and yes, I think curiosity is a perfectly sound motivation for asking questions:D .
vanfunk

[Tecolote]

FWIW I was told by an armorer that the entire barrel is Tenifer treated then the outside is blued.

[Handy]

How would you blue something that doesn't corrode? That would be like bluing stainless.

As far as refinish goes, paint or phosphate are the only things that would stick - but that isn't phosphate from Austria.

[JohnKSa]

It's definitely a different finish than either bare tenifer, parkerizing, blueing, or the new (teflon?) finish on the slides of the 3rd gen Glocks.

I'm curious too...

[Jim Watson]

How would you blue something that doesn't corrode?

The nitrates and nitrites in bluing salts are much stronger oxidizers than atmospheric oxygen. The Tennifer hardening protects pretty well against rust, but is not absolutely proof against intentional oxidation at 290 degrees.

I'm calling it black oxide until official announcement from Gaston to the contrary.

And you can blue, or rather, blacken stainless. At least the alloys used in guns. Brownells sells the mix.

[Handy]

Blackening stainless can be done with paint, or a process called Chromium Sulphide. The sulphide process I believe reacts to the chrome in the stainless steel, rather than the iron.


Jim, your response about high temperatures and chemical environments mainly echoes the explanation I've found the most reasonable:

The finish is in fact a "blue" or "black oxide", but it got there during part of the Nitrading process, when the parts were under tremdous pressure and heat.

Further, I don't think a manufacturer would employ one process on the barrel, and another on other Nitraded parts. So I think the slide and extractor are also black oxide over bead blasted metal.

Glock employs phosphate for refinish because no other process works on Tennifered metal, and it roughly matches (and is cheap).


Thanks for a discussion that was a little more sensible than this one:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24378&perpage=25&highlight=glock%20barrel&pagenumber=1

[Spackler]

What gives you the idea that the barrel can't corrode? No finish is corrosion proof, not stainless, hard-chrome, and certainly not tennifer.

[Handy]

Let me rephrase - a metal that resists salt spray corrosion for months may have a tough time taking an even bluing under normal hot blue conditions.

Like stainless, which is also not completely corrosion proof, it is difficult to induce rust on something that rust resistant.

Don't take my word for it - try and cold blue the wear mark on a Glock barrel. I think you'll find it won't darken the metal at all.

[Jim Watson]

Brownell's says their No 84 Stainless Bluing compound will also blacken cast iron and the weird metal in a "Post '64 Winchester '94. I doubt there is any chromium in an old cast iron gun to react to the chromium sulfide process. Maybe it is a dual action mixture of reagents to blacken a wide range of metals. I wish I knew what was going on there but they understandably keep it proprietary.

[Handy]

Like I said, you can apply paint to stainless, or that chromium sulphide process. I don't know what Brownells is selling, but it could be more of a paint.

"Robar is able to blacken stainless steel by using oxidizing type blacking compounds. This process produces black coatings on stainless steel and alloy steels by a "conversion" process. The chrome in the stainless steel is involved in a chemical reaction with the oxidizers in the solution producing chrome-sulphide. The application of the black finish is dependent upon the surface treatment of the steel. Bead blasted surfaces will have a satin black appearance while a surface blasted with aluminum oxide will be matte in nature. Importantly, dimensional changes involved in blackening are extreamly small, less than 0.0001 Mil. This thickness of the black oxide type coating ranges from 0.00006-0.0001 Mil depending on the type of alloy being treated. Blackening of stainless steel not only makes the weapon more attractive but adds to its corrosion resistance (96 hours salt spray per Mil-C-13924B) and aids in preventing galling, common in stanless steel guns."

[Nero Steptoe]

Lighten up, Handy. Can't you take a friendly ribbing? Your assumptions about when the finish for the barrel and slide is applied is still as wrong in this thread as in the previous thread. The fact that a tenifered barrel can't be cold- blued has no bearing on whether that same barrel can be hot-blued. The slides OBVIOUSLY have a phosphate finish (newer ones containing teflon) that is applied after the slide is tenifered. How do you think Glock slides are refinished? You don't think that they redo the tenifering process, by any chance? The barrel is probably hot-blued. I do know that Glock barrels can be refinished without removing the tenifered layer.

Think up some more really interesting questions. I'm eagerly anticipating being edified. ;)

[Handy]

Nero,

Friendly ribbing? What do you know about "friendly"? There are only a few people on this board I would label "unpleasant" or "dismissive", but I don't think "friendly" would be appropriate.

If I can quote myself:
As far as refinish goes, paint or phosphate are the only things that would stick - but that isn't phosphate from Austria.

Have you ever seen phosphate? What color is it? (Hint, it isn't black.)

What makes you think that hot blue is essentially different from cold blue? All bluing - hot, cold, slow rust, require the same starting point - metal that will form black oxide. The method is immaterial.

As I have said before, you seem to have nothing to contribute but the ability to say "no". Unimpressive. If you want to cite some info or edify somebody with information, have at it. Insisting that the gun is parkerized at the factory doesn't make it so. Citing some dude's website that is obviously in error also doesn't make it so.

You have an explanation offered by me and Owen (who works in that industry), which you haven't addressed, accept with your classical rude "nope". So if you want to make a point, make it. But don't expect people to shut up because you told them so. Especially when you have zero credibility.

As far as this BS goes:Think up some more really interesting questions. I'm eagerly anticipating being edified. I bring new stuff to this forum all the time - I designed a whole gun last week. Funny I didn't see you posting on that thread. Nothing to wholesale disagree with? Was it outside your extensive knowledge base?

[owen]

Handy,

I had a two hour conversation with a metallurgist on just this topic on Friday.

The Black is a phase of Iron Nitride. Iron Nitride has different colors. epsilon iron nirtide is white, another phase is black etc. The phase is basically the way the molecules are packed (Body centered cubic etc).

Tennifer can not be redone. It is not a coating, but a heat treat. That is why glock refinishes with phosphate. Redoing the tennifer will result in the above mentioned epsilon Iron Nitride. That phase is brittle, friable and abrasive...IOW your gun wont work until the junk has worn off.

this is the same as tennifer and melonite (http://www.finishing.com/kolene/qpq/)

The process is known generically as QPQ.

[Handy]

Ah, thanks Owen.

So, the black comes out during the process, and is not any type of iron oxide, but actually a nitride.

My uncle was telling me about Titanium. Apparently Ti prefers to bind with nitrogen at high temps. Wonder if it's for similar reasons?

[Jim Watson]

I guess it would be too much trouble to buff out a Glock barrel and have the local shop drop it in a bluing tank.

Such information as I have seen about titanium says that Ti, once you get it hot enough, will ignite and burn like magnesium, only more so. It is so reactive that it will burn in air (20% oxygen, 80% nitrogen, right?) to form 20% TiO2 and 80% TiN. It just doesn't CARE.

[Handy]

Jim,

If I believed it would work, and was friends with a somebody with bluing tank, why not?

But since I don't think it would work, I certainly wouldn't suggest anyone do that to their barrel, unless they are okay refinishing it later with phostphate.

[owen]

should we mebbe float the QPQ link? It seems to be a topic that comes up alot.

[bad_dad_brad]

All I can say is, interesting - and I love my Glocks. Keep it up boys!