México´s .380


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TATANKA
April 3, 2007, 12:16 PM
Down here in my country (México), the largest caliber authorized for civilian in auto handguns is the .380, we wish bigger ammunitions, but is a felony. I would like to ask you a few questions about the caliber.

How do you consider the .380 caliber for personal defense? I have read lot of posters that use it for CC

What is your opinion about the fact that the .380´s Glock isn´t saled in your country? I think is the only advantage we have instead. Glock designed the 25 and 28 model for latin american countries, where civilians buy it like the bigger we can.

I have the G25 and a 84f, I like both. The accuracy, the little recoil, the high capacity, the weight, the good looking, the only difference is that the G25 is fat for the hand and the 84 is bitter slim, but both are confortable.

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HorseSoldier
April 3, 2007, 12:24 PM
380 ACP will do the job, if the shooter does his job, but it less forgiving in terms of barrier penetration, poor shot placement, and the like.

I think the .380 Glocks would sell here in the US relatively well if they were sold. A number of the really enthusiastic Glock shooters I know would like to have them, either to try out how they run or to complete collections.

Mad Magyar
April 3, 2007, 12:28 PM
How do you consider the .380 caliber for personal defense? I have read lot of posters that use it for CC


I like it just fine, especially during the summer months for concealibility & less clothes barrier for the "perp". A quick burst of 2 or 3 shots will get the S.O.B.'s attention....:) Welcome to the Forum.....
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q148/veritas2369/WaltherPPK-1.jpg

TATANKA
April 3, 2007, 12:38 PM
I am a forum member in México and we use the vbulletin format too. So I am used to this. I will try to participate as much as I can, but the idiom is really an issue, jajaja. Salutations for all.

longeyes
April 3, 2007, 01:57 PM
Is the Makarov 9x18 legal down there?

jwerlc
April 3, 2007, 02:00 PM
I doubt it, only "non-military" calibres are sold to the public.

TATANKA
April 3, 2007, 02:02 PM
The biggest is .380 or 9mm short, all the 9 mm luger 9x19 or else is military exclusive.

briansp82593
April 3, 2007, 02:07 PM
what about 40's?

koussevitzky
April 3, 2007, 02:13 PM
Greetings my fellow mexican!
I'm from Mérida, and by the way If .380 ACP feels underpowered to you, it's possible to register a nice 1911 in 38 super, I had the choice between the 25, the 28 and a Colt Goverment in 38 super. Got the Colt. Now I'm working out in getting the 28 and an ankle holster.
By the way I've heard some guys registeringSIG's in .357sig. How?
Well the law says that you're not allowed to use anything larger than .38 of an inch (bye bye .45,.40, 10mm) and calibers used by the military (9mm) so as you see the .357 is in one of the many legal holes. So if the guy in charge is not very smart... well you know.

PD. Chingaos, hablando en ingles con un compatriota jejeje, saludos desde la blanca Mérida y bienvenido!!!

TATANKA
April 3, 2007, 03:12 PM
No estás en los foros de enlamira o mexicoarmado??? Oye, yo leí mucho acerca del registro del .357 sig y según sé no se lo registraron, les espantó que el nombre fuera similar al .357 magnum, aunque la balística y la técnica permitieran su registro, optaron por no otorgarlo. Saludos desde Chiapas.

About the caliber mentioned, no 40, no 45, no 357 sig, no 38 super in autos. In revolvers we can get .38 spl, no .357 magnum or bigger.

The law is aged in 72´ and it obeys to the goverment fear to inserruction or guerrilla problems. We have historic conflicts, like all latin american countries. But the paradox is that the people like me, that respect laws, can´t protect very well. And the delinquencie wear all kind of weaponry, even bazookas. How do you think we feel?

Sistema1927
April 3, 2007, 03:52 PM
I am wondering if a Glock in .380 would withstand some "judicious" handloading. I imagine that a .380 pushed to +P+ velocities would be a very fine defense load.

koussevitzky
April 3, 2007, 04:35 PM
I had no problems with my 38 super, again, it is up to the local army officer, and some are more "flexible" than others....

Yes this law is old and stupid. Narcs have AK, M16, etc... most of the cartels are better equipped than a lot of smalls countries, yet the people who respect the law are limited to .38's.... Rubbish!

On the other hand I lived in a city with 1 million inhabitants, but with a murder rate of no more than 10 deads per year or something like that...

Caimlas
April 3, 2007, 04:41 PM
.380 seems way underpowered. Can you get a revolver? .41 mag, .367 mag, et al, aren't military calibers as far as I know. I have a friend in Mexico who goes about with a .41 mag. Granted, he is friends with several federales, so it's possible that they're just overlooking his carry of it with a blind eye (he also bought all his firearms from them, so... I'm guessing it's a bit under the radar).

koussevitzky
April 3, 2007, 04:41 PM
Por cierto, bienvenido a este foro, esta increible, mucha gente de aqui son verdaderas enciclopedias en lo que a armas se refiere, lo malo que da envidia ver tantos juguetitos y no poder tenerlos en nuestro pais, al menos no legalmente.

CountGlockula
April 3, 2007, 04:44 PM
Glock .380s are also available in Europe.

Here in the US, I guess there's no need for them since we're busy with: 9mm, .40S&W, .357SIG, .45ACP and .45GAP.

I'd like to see some pics of the Glock .380s.:rolleyes:

yongxingfreesty
April 3, 2007, 06:30 PM
38super for the WIN!!!

The Amigo
April 3, 2007, 07:18 PM
Can u use hollow points there? If so stick with Remington golden saber in 102g or winchester silver tips they penetrate to 10.66 inches average and expand up to .57 if penetration is your game stick with Santa Barbara FMJ made in spain can penetrate 13-15 inches and its hot as hell but hard to find heres some pics. Another thing to consider is your gun if its barrel is more than 3 inches some rounds will work better then others if less than 3 then stick to the above ones. For example a corbon will not expand most of the times if fired from a P3at -3inch but will out of a Bersa +3. Y yo tambien hablo espan~ol saludos.

http://www.ktrange.com/articles/a10/a10-14.html

DWARREN123
April 3, 2007, 09:00 PM
I have a Bersa Thunder .380 Duo Tone in .380 ACP. I like the gun and round. The gun has been flawless and the round, with proper bullet, will do the job.
Just my opinion.

dbarale
April 3, 2007, 09:07 PM
Do I understand that you are allowed a .38spl?
I know it's only 6rds but a .38+P out of a 4" revolver is really not that bad...
It's still what I use for the house even though I have access to larger calibers.

Geronimo45
April 3, 2007, 09:41 PM
"Here in the US, I guess there's no need for them "
One of those darned import point laws keeps 'em out of here. You've got to have X number of points to get in. Smaller calibers don't get as many points as bigger ones. Weight's a factor, sights... it's hard getting mouseguns into the USA.

Marshall
April 3, 2007, 10:08 PM
How do you consider the .380 caliber for personal defense?

Since it's the largest you're allowed, it's great! .380 or rock, 380 or rock.......OK, give me the .380! Sure beats bringing a knife to a gunfight! Practice, practice, practice, you'll be fine. I own two and, I do carry one of them fairly regularly. :)

Sylvan-Forge
April 4, 2007, 08:39 AM
¡Saludos!

The .380 is best loaded with FMJ - chaqueta llena del metal -
for penetration.

My favorite:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=54948&d=1174065509
SiG P232

cookekdjr
April 4, 2007, 09:19 AM
Got a p232 in my pocket right now. Its my American Express card.
-David

Glockfan.45
April 4, 2007, 09:32 AM
Wouldnt 10mm be OK? I am not aware of any military that uses 10mm. I know .38 super is legal in Mexico, and it is a very effective round.

TATANKA
April 4, 2007, 02:30 PM
The 10 mm, 38 super autos are not allowed to civilian. The people who has it or any bigger than the.380 is out of law, it is dangerous becouse is a felony. But lots of people have them. With the revolver is the same we can´t have .41 mag, .357 mag, the biggest is .38 spl or less, like .32 or .22.

Saludos Koussevitzky, no me dijiste si estabas en los foros mexicanos. Saludos The amigo y 007.

The only photos I have right now is a compare between the G25 and the 84f. The G25 is exactly the same than G19, it use all the same mechanism, you can even use the frame at any of both.

DoubleTapDrew
April 4, 2007, 03:04 PM
I consider the .380 a marginal defense round but if it's all you are allowed to have, a .380 or .38 special +P is better than nothing. For pocket carry I use a .380.
How many rounds do those G25s hold? Are they limited to 10?

TATANKA
April 4, 2007, 03:19 PM
Thanks God in México we don´t have that kind of restriction, at least not now. I have read that in some states of USA have that restriction. No, here just have to be the legal caliber, you can have a G25 original 15 rounds magazine or 17 with the +2 extension, like mine :D. If you get a 30 round magazine for your 84f, you can have it, it´s not mentioned in the law. We have the caliber restriction (.380 or .38 spl) and the assault rifles. Shotguns and rifles can be semiautomatic only.

Hokkmike
April 4, 2007, 04:25 PM
.380 is fine. I have fired many calibers at similar targets and have a lot of confidence.

JJE
April 4, 2007, 05:02 PM
Welcome B&G!

I'm taking off tomorrow for 10 days in Guadalajara - my mother's hometown.

I just took delivery of a PPK/S in .380 a couple of weeks ago and so far I'm very pleased with it.

What kind of ammunition can you get in Mexico? American stuff? European? Are there Mexican ammo makers?

sara bellum
April 4, 2007, 09:46 PM
Pursuant to Mexico's Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives:
http://www.natlaw.com/trans/tnstcs1.htm

Arms are prohibited by specific caliber. The FLFE provides:

ARTICLE 11: The weapons, ammunition and materials for the sole use of the Army, Navy, and Air Force are the following:

b) 9 mm. Parabellum, Luger and similar pistols, .38" Super and Commando pistols and those of larger caliber than these.


What this means is that the only 9mm caliber prohibited is the 9x19, which we understand to be 9mm, 9mil, 9 milimeter, etc. Article 11 DOES NOT prohibit 9x17, .380, 9x18 Markarov, etc. It specifically names 9mm. As for size of caliber, that is also a bit of a misnomer as the prohibited calibers refer either to diameter or enumeration/name. For example, .357 magnum is an enumerated round but is also the same "caliber" or diameter as .38 special which IS legal under Article 9 below. Though both are .38 or .357 only .357 magnum is barred.

Thus, .357 Sig would be the proper diameter AND is not one of the named/enumerated prohibited calibers.

The following calibers are allowed under FLFE:

ARTICLE 9th: According to the terms and limitations set by this Law, the following weapons may be possessed or carried:

l. Semi-automatic pistols of greater than .380" (9 mm.) caliber, with the exception of .38" Super and .38" Commando pistols, as well as similar models of other brands, of the same caliber.

2. Revolvers of caliber not greater than the .38" Special, with the exception of the .357" Magnum.

Article 9 read along with Article 11 means hat any caliber "larger" than 9x17 (.380) is legal, except for 9mm parabellum (9x19). As mentioned above 9x18 Makarov is not on the list.

Now, turning to all of the calibers not on the list:


.17 Mach. Imagine this tiny little bullet in FMJ, http://www.handgunsmag.com/accessories/mach2_101204/ . Nice little pistol caliber.

.22 Magnum. Clearly, this round is smaller than .38 or .380, and it packs a lot of sting. http://www.gunblast.com/AMT-AutoMagII.htm

.32 ACP. Ah, a classic. It has it's own place in history and its own pop in a little package.

9x18 Makarov. It is not 9mm parabellum, Luger, etc. It passes.

.25 NAA. A lot of zip in a tiny hand held pistol, http://www.naaminis.com/25NAArel.html

.32 NAA. A bottle- necked bit of trouble, http://www.naaminis.com/32NAA.html

.30 Luger. Yes, .30 Luger! That under-appreciated round. Recall that the Hi Power in .30 Luger was made specifically for countries that banned the 9mm parabellum. The .30 Luger is a hot botte necked bullet.

5.7x28 mm. The FN Five Seven fires this devastating little miniaturita of a round, http://remtek.com/arms/fn/57/. And it is legal under the plain terms of the above laws.

.357 Sig. It is clearly not the enumerated .357 magnum. Nor is it the enumerated 9mm Parabellum, Luge, etc. It is however approximately the same diameter projectile as .380 or 9x17 mm. Until the Mexican legislature enumerates this round, it is good to go.

7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev. Clearly the caliber is smaller in diameter than any 9mm. This is an extremely powerful round.

This should be plenty of pólvora (firepower) to keep malhechores (wrongdoers) acting under color of law or not at bay.

Folks, feel free to chime in with any other calibers not on the list .25, .30, .32, 5mm, 6mm, 7mm, 8mm calibers for auto pistols.

Enjoy

MachIVshooter
April 4, 2007, 11:21 PM
I am wondering if a Glock in .380 would withstand some "judicious" handloading. I imagine that a .380 pushed to +P+ velocities would be a very fine defense load.

Don't know about the Glock, but an 84FS will tolerate handloads that push 300 ft/lbs. The load I keep in the wife's are 102 gr. Golden Sabre's loaded to 1120 FPS.

7.62 x 25 mm Tokarev. Clearly the caliber is smaller in diameter than any 9mm. This is an extremely powerful round.

This is probably your best bet for an effective defensive cartridge. It can generate energy levels that exceed most 9x19mm loads. The biggest problem with the 7.62 Tok is availablity of platforms; there are about 2 choices, and neither is particularly well suited to concealed carry.

The .32 H&R magnum is not a bad choice either. I have a Ruger SP101 3" in this caliber, and would not feel undergunned with it. Small bullet, but it's zippy.

sara bellum
April 5, 2007, 12:18 AM
B&G did not ask whether any particular caliber arm was useful in concealed carry. However, if it were his issue, most of the calibers other than 7.62 x 25 and .17 Mach come in handy packages since the 9mm arm can be converted to .30 Luger by changing the barrel (the magazine remains the same since the base of the cartridge is the same diameter as 9mm Parabellum).

Such a conversion would allow very small handguns like an AMT back up, KAHR, etc, to carry an adequate, shock producing caliber. I do want to take this opportunity to point out that it is questionable that any pistol caliber has "knock down" or "stopping power." It appears from US DOJ research that such notions are purely myth: http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html . It seems that psychological shock is a key deterrent to ending aggression.

My reason for bringing up the issue of myth of "stopping power" and calibers is that we do each other a disservice by perpetuating the notion that one pistol caliber is worse than any other for personal defense. Notice that law enforcement and military personnel seek calibers capable of perforating body armor and vehicles. Such applications have nothing to do with personal defense.

In reality, body armor has made most pistol rounds (except for 5.7 Five Seven FN) obsolete in military application.

In this context, humble calibers like .22, .25, or .32 are no less adequate in creating psychological shock in an attacker in the personal defense setting. With that in mind, folks like B&G, or any of us, may be served well by a .32 H&R magnum revolver.

If you venture onto the 1911 forums, the participants make comments such as "I'd rather have a slingshot than a 9mm" and extoll the "stopping power" of .45 ACP. This is unfortunate because such outlooks limit our discussion of the sport which we enjoy and make it appear to the community at large that we have an obsession with lethality.

We are all enthusiasts and should offer each other meaninful dialogue (and educate the non firearms community about responsible firearms ownership). My best to everyone.

Saludes a B&G y todos los camaradas de este foro. No se deseperen si el Ejéricito no sabe la diferencia entre .357 sig y magnum. Tenemos que seguir exigiendo nuestros derechos al pie de la letra. Solo nosotros podemos hacer valer a las leyes y hacer valer nuestra soveranía personal.

LightningJoe
April 5, 2007, 12:31 AM
Handguns are effective in stopping fights mainly for psychological reasons. Fear and demoralization are what make handguns effective. If these don't work, .44 Magnum will be ineffective without serendipitous shot placement.

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2007, 01:38 AM
Beretta&Glock,
Too many people say the .380 is too light for self defense but I feel it isn't. Americans are too hung up on caliber size and for some reason they think anything less than a .45 Auto is a small and underpowered round. I even like the .32 Auto (7.65mm Browning) and feel it’s a good round. Practice and do drills to get good at shot placement and you will be able to protect yourself well with a pistol chambered in 9X17mm.

I like your Beretta a lot and feel it's a great pistol. If you are looking for good ammo I feel Fiocchi makes good ammo that is a little hotter than the other ammo available out there. It is probably available in Mexico too.

makarovnik
April 5, 2007, 01:51 AM
.38 super is legal for civilians to own in Mexico. I'd go with that. As a matter of fact I'd like to own one but the ammo isn't cheap.

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2007, 02:02 AM
He already said .38 Super is NOT legal. Nothing over .380 auto for a pistol or .38 Special for a revolver...

CZ.22
April 5, 2007, 02:58 PM
Lot a folks round here carry .38special. You already have a 10-5, and I would imagine that would be safe to shoot +P in. Buffalo Bore makes some loads that go ~350 ft-lbs.

TATANKA
April 9, 2007, 04:04 PM
I know about the .38 spl power for personal defense, I just prefer the auto´s capacity, with a +2 magazine and one in the chamber I bring 18 rounds in my Glock. Lot better (3 times) than the 6 from the 38 spl. But I don´t have to choose, I have both and carrie either whenever I want, jaja. I repeat, carrie weapon is out of law.

Sara Bellum, you are right, lot of calibers match legal restrictions, like .357 sig, but the militar guys don´t like it, so they rather not to alloud it. We have a under sized citicenship, becouse the politicians and militars aren´t enouf informed. Hablas muy bien el español y conoces muy bien la ley, de dónde eres? Tu nombre, Sara, es porque eres mujer? Saludos.

JJE, we have a mexican cartridge producer, Águila or Eagle. Salutes.

ArchAngelCD, I think that we only can get national brand cartridges here, the only imported brands we get are for long calibers, like for rifles.

Hello, everybody.

gallo
January 3, 2008, 06:17 PM
Why don't you get a 38 revolver. It carriers a little more punch than a .380.

gallo
January 3, 2008, 06:39 PM
Anther suggestion, I just read Ruger came out with a .32 Magnum load that supposedly packs more punch than a 9 mm.

Seminole
January 3, 2008, 07:29 PM
¡Bienvenido al foro, Tatanka!

Sé que has dicho que te gusta mejor un semiautomático que un revolver (y a mí tambien), pero yo preferiría más un .38 que un .308 si esas fuesen mis únicas opciones. Aún así, no creo que un .380 séa un calibre horrible si es lo que prefieres.

Mad Magyar
January 3, 2008, 07:57 PM
[QUOTE]I consider the .380 a marginal defense round but if it's all you are allowed to have, a .380 or .38 special +P is better than nothing. For pocket carry I use a .380.[/QUOTE

I view this often, marginal but we carry it anyway....I find myself doing that since smaller calibers are convenient for pocket carry....:)

Silvanus
January 3, 2008, 08:53 PM
I have no idea how easy/hard it is to get firearms parts from Europe where you live, but if it's posible (which I doubt though) there's a company in Austria that now makes 9mm Makarov barrels for 9mm Glocks. They are supposed to work with the same (9mm) magazines too. If 9mm Mak. is allowed, that would be another option for you.

MachIVshooter
January 3, 2008, 10:56 PM
I consider .380 minimum, but if that's the most you can have, it's a moot point whether we approve it or not.

What is your opinion about the fact that the .380´s Glock isn´t saled in your country? I think is the only advantage we have instead. Glock designed the 25 and 28 model for latin american countries, where civilians buy it like the bigger we can.

I'll gladly take that concession for the ability to own anything else up to and including 155mm guns. I don't like Glocks anyway.

ArchAngelCD
January 3, 2008, 11:33 PM
Wow, a 9 month old thread is back.... Ummm----- Why??

bltmonty
January 4, 2008, 12:06 AM
I live in the U.s.-Mexico border area and have extended stays in Mexico in which I am allowed to have a handgun in my house.

I have two guns for Mexico. I originally bought a CZ 52 with a 7.62x25 caliber, believing that it would be permissible because it's smaller than the 9mm caliber. However, when I talked to a few people from the Mexican firearms discussion forum, they told me they believed this round would still get me into trouble because it seems to be on an "unofficial list" of unapproved handguns. Not wanting to spend 5 years in a Mexican jail working this out, I developed another handgun.

This is a Russian Makarov that was originally chambered for the 380 ACP, a caliber officially on the approved list. However, I bought a 32 NAA 4.5 inch barrel from makarov.com for the gun and carefully handloaded the ammo. With the 32 naa, I easily get 1400 fps with an 85 grain .32 caliber bullet. It has almost twice the energy of a common 380 acp. It's permissible according to Mexican law in two ways--the gun is a 380 acp and the bullet of the 32 naa is 32 caliber. It's also accurate enough, and I love the Makarov platform.

There's a lot of machismo around about being able to carry a 38 super, 357 sig, etc in Mexico and not have problems. I don't believe it. A recent article in Juarez's Diaro Hoy states that the jails in Cd Juarez are full of firearms felons, with the .40 s&w being the one caliber getting most of the people into trouble.

Pilot
January 4, 2008, 12:37 AM
There is nothing wrong with .380. It goes bang and with modern ammo can get decent results. I carry a Beretta M85FS a lot when not carrying my 9MM CZ PCR. I also carry a Makarov 9x18 which is only marginally better than the .380.

Hey, at least you're armed.

gallo
January 4, 2008, 01:51 AM
I never realized that a .380 was a "marginal" caliber until I read it in these forums. The truth is that the perp facing the business end of the barrel will not have the concentration to discern if he is looking at a .45 or a .22. Moreover, the perp will not know if what hit him was a .22, .380, or a .50 caliber. He will hear the bang accompanied by the sting and if he can flee, he will. Lastly, in Mexico claiming self-defense will not save you from spending time in jail (guilty until proven innocent). So I much rather shoot a perp that runs away than one that drops dead at my feet.

jakeswensonmt
January 4, 2008, 02:15 AM
Wow, a 9 month old thread is back.... Ummm----- Why??

Someone's posting without looking at the date of the last post... Thinking that the thread starter TATANKA has probably moved on since April...

NCHornet
January 4, 2008, 09:54 AM
I have a Sig P232 SL, which I believe is one of the finest 380's produced, I carry the DPX rounds in it and I have never felt under powered!! You need to check some of the specs in the Corbon line up, very impressive.

Grayrider
January 4, 2008, 05:08 PM
I certainly would opt for the .38 Super or varients on the theme if given the option. I have been known to use that caliber for defensive purposes myself. I still long for a lightweight Commander in Super. I need to sell something....

:D

John

bhp9mm
January 4, 2008, 06:00 PM
how does the 380 glock shoot is it the size of the 19 how many rounds does it hold

Bones11b
January 4, 2008, 07:25 PM
I was thinking of building a .38 special 1911 for use on trips to certain countries (Dominican Republic). Guess where I found some great info :rolleyes:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=244604

Leif Runenritzer
January 5, 2008, 12:18 AM
Article 9 read along with Article 11 means hat any caliber "larger" than 9x17 (.380) is legal, except for 9mm parabellum (9x19). As mentioned above 9x18 Makarov is not on the list.

If i understand this right, the length can be more than 17mm, but the girth can't be more than .380? I hate to say it, but 9x18 Makarov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x18mm_Makarov) is truly 9.25mm.

buenhec
January 5, 2008, 01:55 AM
Having lived on both sides of the border, the Mexican law is vague and outdated. I have several weapons still in Mexico. You cannot really purchase them, but if you have them you can register them. Just take them to the military base and sign them up. CCW permits are very hard to get in the northern states, unless you are LEO or Govt. The city govts also will give you a $100 dllr +/- grocery voucher for any firearm you surrender, no matter how old or unusable. You would be surprised what turns up.

roscoe
January 5, 2008, 03:28 AM
CCW permits are very hard to get in the northern states,
Wow - you mean they are obtainable down in southern Mexico? If you have more info, please share!

LightEmUp
January 5, 2008, 04:07 AM
38 spl +p sounds like a good option.

denfoote
January 5, 2008, 04:29 AM
I thought the G25 was straight blowback??

If you could post a good hi-rez picture uf your G25, I'd appriciate it. I want one for my desktop pic collection.

Muchos Gracias mi amigo.

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