[Sir Galahad]

Not for like all the time shooting, but for home defense duty and a few rounds through it to see how it runs through the pistol and where it hits? I called Magnum Research and they said they recommend against +P for regular shooting. But the manual makes no mention of avoiding +P ammo. Anyone out there shot +P through your Baby Eagle? Had any problems?

[Handy]

The BE was originally the Jericho 941, chambered for 9mm and .41 AE with just a barrel change. .41 AE is like .40, but a little hotter. See where I'm going with this? 9mm +P is not going to work the gun as hard as .41 AE, so I wouldn't worry.

There is no reason to practice with +P ammo though, in any gun.

[Andrew Wyatt]

There is no reason to practice with +P ammo though, in any gun.


well, there is if it's your carry ammo.

[Handy]

To a certain extent yes, but I meant there is no reason for high volume +P shooting. It just batters your gun, which is foolish if it is your carry piece.

The recoil differences between standard and +P are noticeable, but aren't going to significantly change the fundamentals of aim, trigger control or recoil recovery - they just exaggerate them some. POA should also not be affected with 9mm, it shoots flat in all loadings.

No one should be so sensitive that they can only practice with one load.

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks for the info, Handy! I appreciate it!:D

[dude]

Try some 147g subsonic Winchester Ranger through your BE.............it shoots like frigin butter through my old sub-compact BE!!

I use them for SD out of my P7

[10-Ring]

Based only on the limited access I've had w/ my buddy's Baby Eagle, I'd think that thing would be okay w/ limited +P ammo use. At the very worse, maybe a heavier recoil spring to help absorb some of that punishment ;)

[PCRCCW]

When I could afford it, I practiced more with +P +P+ than I did with FMH ammo.

Practice with what you carry.......as much as you can afford.
You need to know how it shoots...accuracy wise, recoils for quick shots...doubles, triples etc and if it is ABSOFREAKINLUTELY dependable in your gun. Whats not to practice with it?

You can shoot +p in your little eagle until the slide falls off of it...IMO. It was designed for the 41 AE and is a CZ clone, solid 4140 Steel and is a tough motha!

I wouldnt shoot it all of the time in any gun......but dont be afraid to shoot it as much as you feel you need to.

Shoot well

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks, guys!:D

[Nightcrawler]

If you want a source of cheap +P ammo check out Georgia Arms (http://www.georgia-arms.com). They sell 9mm NATO-spec ammunition, a 124gr. FMJ bullet at 1200 feet per second, which is well within +P territory for 9x19mm, I believe.

[Handy]

You can shoot +p in your little eagle until the slide falls off of it...IMO.

This is the problem. If you do shoot that much +P ammo, because you want to insure you and your gun are dependable, you are putting extra wear on a gun that you depend on.

9mm handguns are so great because they are really overbuilt for the caliber. But once you get into heavier kicking ammo, now your gun will wear like a .40 or .45.

I guess I just don't see the necessity. It doesn't take more than a hundred rounds to convince anyone that a load is reliable. And there is usually no difference in trajectory or POI. So all you're getting out of the practice is more kick - which I haven't found to be a factor.

I'd much rather fire 100 standard rounds than 30 +P carry rounds. The more you can shoot, the better the practice - period.

[Nick96]

As mentioned previously, I don't think there would be any problem regarding frame, slide or barrels. A common failure in many "CZ Clones" is slide stop pin breakage though. Hotter ammo could somewhat increase wear on that. Of course you could just order one to carry in the gun for defensive purposes - and have the other to drop in target shooting whatever ammo you want.

Also check out the CZ Forum - CZ Clone Club. Lots of good information on pistols of this type.

[Sir Galahad]

Thanks!

[twolf]

I use either Winchester Silver Tipped 147 gr HP's or Hydra Shok's in my 9mm's. Neither are +P or +P+ and both have numberous real world one shot kills. Here is the thing that most people forget when they buy a firearm, you have to actually shoot someone to stop them. Unless your robber is an 85 year old man with a heart condition, just shooting the firearm without hitting him will not do it.

Another thing, God forbid you do ever have to use your firearm to defend yourself, but what is going to be your answer when the DA or, in my case Commonwealth Attorney, asks why you felt the need to carry hotter ammunition than normal? I do not recommend anyone to carry +P or +P+ rounds unless you are a member of a police department or sheriffs department because you will be burned if you ever shoot someone.

I would practice with a couple boxes of what you will carry because certain firearms do not like certain rounds ie 1911's generally do not like hollow points. However, I would think twice about carrying +P or +P+.

Stay safe.:confused:

[DontShootMe]

I do not recommend anyone to carry +P or +P+ rounds unless you are a member of a police department or sheriffs department because you will be burned if you ever shoot someone.

Why do they sell +p home defense ammo then? Are LEO's more responsible? Higher skill level? Because they have a reason to shoot someone and a citizen does not?

What do you mean 'burned' ???

:confused:

[twolf]

Here is something most people do not know, most police officers and police deaprtments do not even use +p or +p+ ammo. Most agencies use Corbon ammunition. When I say you are going to be burned, I mean it. The DA's and Commonwealth Attorneys do not want people looking to blow someone away because they bump into another person wrong. If you ever do shoot someone, you will have your weapon confiscated by the police to ensure everything is legal on it. They will check your ammunition and the setup of that weapon. Then they will talk to everyone that witnessed it. If there is no one else that saw it, they will look at the facts or the lack thereof. If they prosecute and you used a +p load for example, they are gonna put it in the mind of the jurors that you could have bought regular self defense ammo but didn't. You bought the most lethal ammunition you could because you wanted to kill someone. Now they have a jury thinking that the defendant is a wannabe Wyatt Earp.

As for your question, why do they sell it? Because people will buy it. They sell rat shot for firearms because people buy it. Rat shot is the worst thing for any firearm but they sell it.

As for the question, are they "higher skilled"? I sure hope so.

Here is another question for you. What are the walls in your house made of? People that normally buy +p+ ammo usually think more powerful is better. If you miss the intruder, where will that bullet stop? When people buy shotguns from me, they ask what loads should they keep in it for home defense. Most people would say 00 buck, take a piece of sheetrock with you to the range next time and shoot at it from, say 10' with 00 buck. It will cut clear through it. So will most +p+ rounds.

Most people think they are good marksmen. People alot smarter than either of us have conducted studies and found that your aim is cut in half in a real life shooting.

Shoot straight.

[PCRCCW]

"Here is something most people do not know, most police officers and police deaprtments do not even use +p or +p+ ammo. Most agencies use Corbon ammunition. When I say you are going to be burned, I mean it."

Heres something MOST PEOPLE do know and you probably shouldnt pass on to newbies without at least checking into it.................

CORBON is ALL +P ammo and has +P+ Velocities. Very few agencies use Corbon due to its cost. Every Agency/Dept in the country buys ammo on contract and if the ammo fits their "spec" for velocity and accuracy, will go to the lowest bidder. Simple.

Its politics....and business.

ANY FACTORY AMMO will hold up in a court of law. A defensive shooting case is not any different than any other court case.
FACTORY AMMO....+P/+P+ or not will easily stand its ground.

Your arguement completely negates the use of JHP's also. +P and +P+ ammo was designed and manufactured to stop a person quicker than not using it. If their wasnt a legal and logical purpose for it...It wouldnt exist.

ALL AGENGIES/DEPTS use JHP ammo in their sidearms. WHY?
Because it has a proven track record for stopping people faster and with less shots fired than FMJ! It also lessons the risk of a "Friendly fire" incident....general public getting hurt do to over penetration and missed shots.

+P and +P+ take the same theory of JHP's vs FMJ's to a higher plane ............thats all.

The ONLY ammo that will not stand up in court , even with an semi decent public defender, is RELOADS!

Do yourself a favor and snoop around the net...Ive seen published lists of what the most common ammo used by Law Enforcement. It does include +P ammo....Sabers, Dots and Hydra's are very common.

BTW.....Most police are not that great in the accuracy dept.
The police/ex officers on this board will back me up......

Most dont fire their weapons while on the job except for their annual recertification.

The average hit ratio across the country is in the 20-30% range for law enforcement shoot outs that get recorded.

Check into what your local LE carries and Ill bet your pleasantly surprised.

Get a good selection of Defensive ammo for your gun.....whatever you have researched and think is what you want to carry. Try it in your gun...check reliability and accuracy and go from there.

Shoot well.

[twolf]

Other loads available are: (all data from Cor-Bon's literature)


9mm 125 gr. JHP 1275 fps
38 Special +p+ 115 gr. JHP 1300 fps 4" revolver
38 Special +p+ 115 gr. JHP 1116 fps 2" revolver
357 Magnum 125 gr. JHP 1450 fps 4" revolver
40 S&W 150 gr. JHP 1200 fps 4.5"
10mm Auto 150 gr. JHP 1300 fps 5"
10mm Auto 180 gr. JHP 1175 fps 5"
380 ACP 90 gr. JHP 1100 fps 3.5"
44 Special 170 gr. JHP 1000 fps 4"


The above data is from Cor-Bons website. I see one that is +p+ and that is .38 special. Please name a police deaprtment that still uses .38 special and I'll show you the sheriff, Andy, and his lug headed deputy, Barney.

Now, I never said anything about JHP's.

Next, I have talked to several cops. My uncle is a state trooper. My garndfather was an FBI Special Agent. I am an FFL so I talk to BATF guys all the time. Guess what ammunition they all use.

The reason they can burn you on reloads for self defense is that most people would load them hot. In New York last year a man was arrested for defending his family in his home. The reason, he did not have a permit to OWN a gun. He had applied twice for one. The first company went outta business and the second had just sent his application in. Ten years ago this would have never happened.

There is plenty of good quality out there without using +P or +P+. It hurts the life of your firearm and it could burn you in court.

I am also a corrections officer so feel free to use whatever you want. I'll be waiting.

[twolf]

My wife is also a cop with my "local" LE's. They carry .40 cal Cor-Bon.

[PCRCCW]

HELLO???????????

You agree with me and dont even know it. 125gr 9mm @ 1275 FPS...and its not +P???????????????????????????????????????

For reference.....the +P+ 127gr Ranger clocks at less than that!
And its one of the hottest around................

Im not saying its not hard on your gun....but its basic knowledge that you can make it very easy on your gun....actually just as easy on your gun as standard pressure rounds, if you do it correctly.....heavier recoil springs etc.

+P isnt always advantagous.....Ill admit. But more times than not the pressure adds velocity which adds expansion. You being an FFL know that is the concept behind +P loads.

How do you think Corbon 9mm 125gr hits 1275 fps? (and it does say +P on the Box and creates +P+ pressures...just to let you know) The website doesnt always pass ALL info on.

I spoke too soon and apologize that I said Corbon isnt used anywhere....when an agency can choose its own ammo without a contract or bean counter interference.....Im sure some do use Corbon. But Fed. Hydras, Gold Dots and Sabers are at least as
used in the Field. Hydras are the top of the list for UT Agencies, Local, State and Federal.

The analogy of JHP's was just to make my point.......+P is made and used with a purpose and a real advantage in MOST GUNS!
Not all but most.....the advantage is real and just like JHP's vs FMJ's.......can easily be justified in court. Just dont carry Reloads.
Not only do people load them hotter but some are careless when doing so and make inconsistant loads...some just dont fire at all.

I also await your reply.........respectfully, me............Shoot well

[twolf]

I emailed the guys at SAAMI and asked them exactly what makes a +p or +P+ round. This is what they wrote back.

S.A.A.M.I. establishes Maximum Average Pressures (MAP) for cartridges in the U.S. It also establishes + P pressures that are higher than MAP with correspondingly higher velocities. +P+ again result in higher pressures & velocities. The intent of all was to increase bullet energy & expansion not enhanced penetration.

I still stand by my original that democrits would try to burn you and personally I do not want twelve people hearing words like greater expansion in the middle of my trial.

One another note, I buy silver tips and Hydra Shok's, both have excellent expansion and both have better than 1000 fps velocities. Both are also sub-sonic rounds. If anyone can show me someone that can move at 1001 fps, I will rethink my philosophy on +p or +p+.

One other that I would not repeat if I ever did have to defend myself.........

Two in the body and one in the head, you know they're dead!

:evil:

[Al Thompson]

"One another note, I buy silver tips and Hydra Shok's, both have excellent expansion and both have better than 1000 fps velocities. Both are also sub-sonic rounds. If anyone can show me someone that can move at 1001 fps, I will rethink my philosophy on +p or +p+. "

By definition, if the bullet exceeds roughly 1000 fps, it's supersonic, depending on altitude.

Great that your folks are all LE, but Lynchburg must have some crackerjack LE orgs. I can state with a great deal of authority that few if any departments here use Corbon. The two leaders in SC are Gold Dots and HydraShoks.

Things may be different in VA, but there is no literature that suggests any legal problems with +P or +P+ ammo. There are no mainstream firearms trainers that suggest such nor are there any statues (TTBOMK) that address the velocity of a handgun round. Some places are anti-hollow points (PDRNJ). If your logic was correct, there wouuld be no magnums or any handgun ammo that exceeds a 1000 fps speed limit.

[twolf]

Literature will not book you for Manslaughter and trainers do not prosecute you! Ask any attorney, it does not matter that they can prove when it comes down to it, it matters what they get the jury to believe.

I know trainers that teach that if you are attacked, you have the right to defend yourself. Do you? In most states, you are required to flee if at all possible.

According to SAAMI, all ammunition that is +p or +p+ has to be marked because if not, they could blow the gun apart. This is called liablist. It is also called lawsuit. I have my box of Federal Hydra-Shok JHP's in front of me, it does not say +p or +p+.

Maybe, it is suppose to be 1000 fps but I'm not an engineer. All I know is Federal Cartridge does not have the Hydra Shok's listed as +p. The do have some expanding FMJ's that are +p but they state that. There is no guessing. Take a look for your self. http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammocat20.asp?s1=1

Speer has Gold Dots that are both +p and regular loads but they are clearly marked on the box. Once again, don't believe me, look at their website. http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=7&s2=26

I state my opinion and you attack me. Next time, pack your lunch! The +p and +p+ has nothing to do with supersonic or subsonic. It has to do with pressures, that is what will blow your gun up. That is what allows the extra penetration. From what I have read, it has just as much to do with the bullet as the charge. And yes, we have great officers in this state. You calling them "crackerjacks" is an insult.

[Spackler]

Many agencies use whatever they got a low bid on. Cor-Bon may be fine ammo, but I'd bet more agencies are using Federal, Winchester, and Speer than Cor-Bon.

If anybody can cite a court case where somebody was prosecuted for using +P or +P+ ammunition, I'd be very interested. I don't think good shoots turn bad due to the ammo used, unless it's legally prohibited, like hollow-points in NJ, etc.

[Al Thompson]

Must be a regional thing. "Crackerjack" is considered a compliment down here. As in "Crackerjacks" - the candy.

In most states, you are required to flee if at all possible

Blatent mistruth. Very few states have the "retreat" laws. IIRC, most are in the NE. Each is different, one should check his or her state. This is internet disinformation.

I state my opinion and you attack me.

I have not attacked you . Your information may be accurate in your location, but is emphatically untrue in most other places.

The +p and +p+ has nothing to do with supersonic or subsonic.

Your absolutely accurate. It's a pressure issue.

That is what allows the extra penetration.

Increased velocity without an increase in bullet construction equals less penetration, not more. Think of the deer calibers shooting varmit bullets. They go faster, but tend to explode on impact as opposed to staying together and punching through.

This is, at best, a local issue and not one this is perpetuated in the rest of the US. I'd caution all members to get up to speed on local folibles and plan accordingly.

[Johnny Guest]

twolf - -

This topic has strayed from Sir Galahad’s original question. He asked about use of +P ammo in his Baby Eagle. Your statements about legal problems with use of certain ammo have raised some questions in my mind. Please be advised that this is a request for clarification and NOT a personal attack.

Maybe you have some unusual laws in Campbell County, or in all of Virginia. Can you provide links to cites wherein private individuals are prohibited from use of Plus-P ammunition? Some Attorney General’s opinion that possession or use is prima facie evidence of intent to commit some crime? Perhaps you can furnish a couple of cases where evidence was taken in court pertaining to ammo-as-proof-of-an-evil-mind.

What you aver may well be true for where you live, but you present it as a global truth. I am familiar with the laws in Texas and a couple of other states regarding firearms use by legally armed private citizens.

I know of ONE agency in my area which issues Cor Bon ammunition. My own issues Gold Dot HPs. As a hobby shooter and firearms enthusiast as well as a career peace officer, I pay a lot of attention to arms and ammunition. As most drivers are more interested in basic transportation than in automotive perfection, most cops consider their side arms and ammo merely a part of their gear. They use their radios and computers but are not communications or cyber techs. They can use fire control gear but are by no means firefighters. They have basic first aid training but - - Well, you get the idea. They must demonstrate proficiency in the use of all these things, but are not necessarily experts in any particular field.

Perhaps you have credentials way beyond what you display. Do corrections officers in Virginia carry firearms? Our jailers are given only very basic firearms training and qualifications—Nothing like what the licensed peace officers get --- and most of the latter are far from authorities. Detentions personnel here are armed on duty only under extraordinary circumstances. I am friends with number of licensed jailers, so no disrespect is intended, but you mention your C.O. status as if this gives you standing in this ammo discussion, so I’m curious.

There have been many threads on the boards concerning firearms dealers’ “gun savvy.” Most FFL dealers have a basic knowledge of guns but are NOT ballistics experts. They stock what ammo sells and order what is requested. A dealer’s personal interest in firearms is apt to run to bench rest rifles, shotguns, cowboy action shooting, or varminting or deer hunting. They may read the “New Product Releases” on handgun ammo, maybe not. The dealers I know who carry pistols generally rely on a customer’s suggestions, or the salesmen’s samples.

Most BATFE guys who go to the shops are intent on inspecting records and seldom take time to discuss their preferences in ammo. These are (should be :D) busy people. It would make little difference—Federal Agents are more restricted in what they carry than the locals, and are generally uninterested in what you or I or the legal pistol packers prefer. The records compliance inspectors probably haven’t handled a machine gun or destructive device since they left training.

I am a certified Texas Concealed Handgun License Instructor, and we are required to attend regular refresher courses conducted by the state. The ONLY suggestions made to instructors concerning ammunition: The licensee who doesn’t practice often may be more proficient using .38s in their .357s. Students should be encouraged to test their intended carry ammo for function in their guns. Nothing, ZERO, against hollow point bullets or +P ammo.

If you can provide a statewide or regional survey of LE issue ammo, it would be interesting. It would NOT indicate a nationwide truism.

In my area, a private citizen defending self, family or home will not be “burned” for use of certain ammo. Was it a shooting justified by the circumstances?-- is what counts. While it is usually preferable to avoid shooting people, I think it interesting that (Texas) law has recently been clarified to state that there is NO DUTY TO RETREAT in case of a violent home invasion. A quite recent local case resulted in the householder slaying one robber and seriously wounding another. He was interviewed and a statement taken, but he was not arrested or charged. Local police and prosecutors figure the responsibility lies with the surviving robber. He is up for aggravated robbery, a first degree felony, and may well be charged with Homicide, a death resulting from his participation in a felony.

I eagerly await your replies concerning the legal references.

Best,
Johnny

[twolf]

Since you are a law enforcement officer, you can look the cases and laws up just as easy as I can. As far as my credentials, they do extend past my C/O experience but that is all I have to say on that subject. The bottom line is, you can believe me or not, I really care less either way.

As far as the ammunition goes, everyone can use whatever they want or like. If you think you are going to be defending against vampires, I would suggest +g (garlic) bullets. As I stated earlier and proved with statements from SAAMI, +p and +p+ increases velocity and expansion only. If you find me a man that can move faster than 1000 fps then I will change ammunition, otherwise their is not any way.

Fifty years ago concelaed carry permits were not needed in any state that I know of.

Twenty years ago, an assault rifle was selectable between semi automatic and full automatic. Now we have semi automatic assault rifles.

Ten years ago, anyone could buy magazines in excess of ten rounds.

Last year, a man defending himself and his young son would have not only have been justified in shooting the intruder but would have been praised for his courage. This individual has been indicted because he did not have a handgun permit, not a concealed handgun permit, a handgun permit.

We are closer to a firearm registry now than ever before.

By the way, there is an individual that is serving time in the system that shot an attacker which was justified but since it was a "hot" factory load, it went through the BG and hit another individual. He is serving 20 years for attempted murder.

"The beauty of the Second amendment is that no one will need until some tries to take it" Thomas Jefferson

[Don Gwinn]

Mr. Twolf, I myself am far from an expert, but I thought you might wish to know that the Jefferson quote above is at best unsubstantiated and possibly false. http://www.guncite.org

I would also like to repeat the earlier request that you provide some examples of cases in which the use of "hot" ammunition such as +P loadings resulted in convictions or heavier sentences than would otherwise have been the case. Honestly, when you say "ask any lawyer, he'll tell you this is true" most people assume that you are saying that you have actually asked some lawyers yourself and are in possession of the answer.

[twolf]

It is funny that the day after I submitted a complaint to this website about Al Thompson, a moderator, making derogatory comments about the men and women in law enforcement in my area, I am inundated by other moderators taking pot shots at me.

Everyone can use their own judgement, take a look at his whole statement. This is to the point of not only being counter productive, I just don't give a :cuss: anymore. This is the last post I will do on this topic. Let the moderators say whatever the :cuss: they want.

[Johnny Guest]

- - - No one's taking pot shots at you. The Moderators are not ganging up on you. You made some pretty sweeping declarations, and questions have been asked. All participants on THR agree to discuss IDEAS, not personanlities; to attack ARGUMENTS, not the writers.

twolf, you say: It is funny that the day after I submitted a complaint to this website about Al Thompson, a moderator, making derogatory comments about the men and women in law enforcement in my area, I am inundated by other moderators taking pot shots at me. Just a minute, please - - - Are you referring to Al's remark about, "Great that your folks are all LE, but Lynchburg must have some crackerjack LE orgs."

Then you replied, 'And yes, we have great officers in this state. You calling them "crackerjacks" is an insult.'

Al came back, explaining: "Must be a regional thing. ‘Crackerjack' is considered a compliment down here. As in ‘Crackerjacks' - the candy." I'll second his explanation, as if it's necessary. He's a well-read, well-spoken, and erudite individual. "Crackerjack" is indeed a positive reference or descriptor - - Refers to person or persons of enthusiasm and proficiency, as in, "A cracker jack rifleman." If I worked in Rustburg city jail, the Campbell County Jail, Lynchburg PD, or in Virginia Prison System, I think I'd feel good if someone called my outfit a crackerjack organization.

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your line of thought regarding several things, including - - -

* * * "If you find me a man that can move faster than 1000 fps then I will change ammunition, otherwise their is not any way." Ohhhh- kaaayyy . . . . I didn't know there was a question of bullets needing to chase anybody. And, really, no one here is trying to change your ammo choice. They DO resist your declaration that there is some reason they should carry what YOU say: "I do not recommend anyone to carry +P or +P+ rounds unless you are a member of a police department or sheriffs department because you will be burned if you ever shoot someone."

* * * Carry permits, fifty years past vs. Now. ("Fifty years ago concelaed carry permits were not needed in any state that I know of." You might want to research this a bit. Think of Chicago, NYC, Boston, and Los Angeles.)

* * * Assault rifles, twenty years past vs. Now.

* * * Magazine capacity ten years past vs. Now.

* * * "Last year, a man defending himself and his young son would have not only have been justified in shooting the intruder but would have been praised for his courage. This individual has been indicted because he did not have a handgun permit, not a concealed handgun permit, a handgun permit." That's the NYC deal you mentioned earlier, right? Again, awaiting a cite or link to a news story.

* * * "By the way, there is an individual that is serving time in the system that shot an attacker which was justified but since it was a "hot" factory load, it went through the BG and hit another individual. He is serving 20 years for attempted murder." Where? When? May we please have a link or cite? Is he doing the twenty for a hot load or for negligence, or . . .?

Friend, we'll discuss this stuff with you, but could we please have some answers to our questions? How about a little structure to what you say? Please feel free to reply by e-mail or PM if you feel more comfortable in that mode.

Best regards,
Johnny

[LawDog]

Since you are a law enforcement officer, you can look the cases and laws up just as easy as I can.

Well, I'm trying to, but I can't find any cases or case law pertaining to trial and conviction of non-LEO person(s) for using +P or +P+ ammunition in a shooting instead of regular-pressure ammo.

You've stirred my curiosity, and I'd really like to take a long look at the cases and case law you allude to. Since I can't find it, would you kindly provide some information? A case name, if nothing else, would be helpful.

Thanks in advance.

LawDog

[Spackler]

What happened was, your post set off some of our B.S. detectors, and you got called on it. I could be wrong, but I haven't read anything in your subsequent posts to suggest that my B.S. detector needs to be re-calibrated. I don't have a problem with your opinions, except when you try to pass them off as facts.

[Don Gwinn]

Sir, speaking only for myself, I was not aware that you'd made any complaint at all. If I had been, though, I'd have posted the same thing. It's not hard to tell the difference between a personal attack and a question about what you posted. The difference is that with a question, you can make it go away simply by posting the answer. If you post the answers to my questions, then you have refuted my arguments and we're done with those questions.

You're on The High Road. No one is out to get you. I simply don't agree that juries punish people for using +P ammunition in otherwise justified shootings. Some other moderators disagree with other statements. Frankly, you should be prepared to defend your arguments against much more vigorous criticism than you've encountered here if you're going to post things that run counter to the experience of most people. Personally, I recognize that I lack practical experience in a lot of areas, which is why, if I found myself at odds with Johnny or Ian on a matter involving law enforcement, I'd go do some research before I continued the argument.

A few other statements that tripped my meter:

1. A year ago, a father wouldn't have been sent to jail for shooting an intruder.
Huh? I assume you're talking about Ron Dixon in New York, right? Well, last year, that part of New York had exactly the same laws and, I believe, the same prosecutors, not to mention the same public sentiment. So what is it that you believe would have stopped such an incident last year?

2. We're closer to a gun registry than we've ever been.
Nationally? No, we're not. We're not where we want to be, politically, but we're close to it. Between Columbine and the election of 2000 it looked like Gore would be elected and would pursue the matter with Congress.

[Sir Galahad]

Now this is TOO weird!!! One of my other threads somehow merged into this one! In another thread I started on the legal & political forum, I asked the question about legalities regarding ammo selection. Ths was due to some locals here spreading a rumor that if you don't use what the cops use, you'll go to jail after a self defense shooting. Several folks pointed out what utter BS that is AND backed it up with SOURCES. Now, Twolf (If you are still persuing this thread), you were asked to back up your claims. You did not. So, without evidence, you are 100% wrong here, sir. By the way, where did the moderators attack you??? No, what happened is someone called you on your BS and you found any port in a storm to hide from backing up your unfounded hearsay. I truly feel sorry for anyone who you advise on self-defense. Your "advice" just may well get some poor soul killed. I hope YOU can live with that, sir. My uncle is also a state trooper but that doesn't make me an expert on LEOS. As far as you being a corrections officer, I am not impressed. In some states now, COs are private guards hired by Wack-a-Nut Wackenhut with barely a few hours of training and barely paid above minimum wage. A few have already been killed because of that fact. I'm smelling eau de mallninja here...

On another note, I ran some 124 grain Gold Dot +P Gold Dot 9 mils through my Baby Eagle the other day and they were perfect! At my longest household distance of 14 feet, 10 rounds into a group the size of a quarter! Happy! Happy! I couldn't tell much difference recoil wise, but the Baby Eagle is a heavy pistol, all-steel (weighs almost 2 pounds unloaded!) and attribute it to that. I recently got hold of some brand-new factory high-caps for this pistol and am a happy man indeed. Thanks all who replied!

[jims98z28]

Now I don't want to get caught up in all this. But I would like to say that I don't buy the "you will get burned by the jury using +p ammo".
Now as a new person to guns and knowing very little about ammo, I feel that I would have a similar knowledge as the jury would about ammo.
The first thing I would think about a user of +P ammo is that he wanted to use the best ammo he could get the protect his home, not that he wants to kill. But this is only MY opinion.

[duckfoot]

I'm not a LEO

Not a trainer

Not even a mall ninja

But I do work with a few lawyers (corporate types) as a side product of my job. (None of them shoot)

I asked them that if they were to push a wrongful death suit would they play the "killer ammo" card. I named a few brands that the LEO's use. Six out of six said "no." When I asked why, I got one "would different ammo make the bad guy any less dead" four "same ammo the police use would stand up in court" one "if it is sold to the area public as self defense ammo what else would it be used for"? When first asked all six looked at me like I was crazy and had to do a lot of explaining and even show this thread to get any answer but all agreed that in a shooting if the laws of self defense for the area are followed that type of factory SD ammo should not matter.

One did say that hand loads could be a case point in a trial

.02 I found, to be taken with salt