Dallas PD has issue with "plastic-tip bullets"


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TexAg
April 4, 2007, 03:49 AM
http://www.myfoxdfw.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail?contentId=2840295&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1

Interesting news story envolving AR-15s. Maybe a shotgun with slugs would have been a good thing to have here? Overpenetration could still be a problem, but at least the trajectory isn't so flat.

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Lucky
April 4, 2007, 04:15 AM
So, cops want extra deadly 'Civilian Killer' bullets...

bogie
April 4, 2007, 04:26 AM
Looked to me like they're shooting the Winchester Noslers...

Campers, let's talk terminal ballistics. If you miss the target, because you're spraying and praying, it doesn't matter WHAT you are shooting.

Laminated glass?

If those bullets had fragged immediately upon hitting the windshield (glass, interlayer, glass), etc., don't you think that the passenger compartment would be a Bad Place to be occupying? Would YOU like a 2,500 fps buzzsaw of semi-molten glasscrap to descend upon you?

I'm guessing the bad guy ducked, the cops shot the heck out of the car's glass (because, doh, everyone who learns from TV, and who has never gone to Knob Creek, KNOWS that thin sheet metal just stops those nasty bullets...), and then the guy managed to get a shot off.

If any officers are reading this: Just aim at the dang doors. Your 9mm is gonna unleash what is known as a "world of hurt."

bad LT
April 4, 2007, 05:12 AM
Exactly what .223 bullet are they refering too...

There are numerous .223 bullet designs for use against varmits (aka prarie dogs, coyotes, etc.). If they were using such ammunition, the officials in charge of picking ammo made a very wrong decision!

There are many other designs on the market now that would be a better choise than such a varmit bullet. The decision is not using "a plastic bullet" vs. using FMJ, it is about using the correct projectile against the target.

Although .223 is a notoriously bad penetrator on car bodies when compared to other rounds (7.62 x 39, .308, 12 gauge slug, etc.)

universal
April 4, 2007, 10:11 AM
They might be using the Hornady TAP ammo. I know several tactical units around here use them.

TexasRifleman
April 4, 2007, 10:26 AM
Well let's see what the Buick O Truth has to say about vehicle penetration.
It appears that the windshield is not the best place to shoot, regardless of the ammo.

Is the DPD only training to shoot through the glass?


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm



The reporter was holding a .223 Winchester Ballistic Tip but I don't know if that is what DPD uses.

plexreticle
April 4, 2007, 11:48 AM
Plastic tipped ammo sort of defeats the purpose of a carbine if you come across a bad guy with a decent vest or windshield.

skypirate7
April 4, 2007, 12:15 PM
This is going to piss off the entire tacticool community. It has all the elements of a huge flame war...

1) Plastic-tipped fragmentation 5.56 failed to kill, seriously injure, or stop the suspect.
2) Suspect's AR-15 (firing FMJ) jammed after 1 shot.


:neener:

Geno
April 4, 2007, 12:17 PM
Okay...all opinion aside, and facts front-and-center. When I started to build my home defense collection, I was strongly advised set aside all opinion. The FFL told me, "Here are two videos that you need to buy...view them, take notes then come see me to order what you want."

1) Deadly Weapons: Firearms and Firepower, ANITE Productions.

2) Deadly Effects: Wound Ballistics, ANITE Productions.

These videos are not for the faint of heart. They contain footage from actual crime scene and autopsy.

Re: penetration of a windshield, one of the world’s best bullet resisters/deflectors, a .45 ACP, 230 ball does awesome, as does a 12 gauge slug/buckshot, and of course the .50 BMG. This same applies for automobile doors. In fact, these three calibers take top scores across the board. Buy the videos and view them.

El Tejon
April 4, 2007, 12:19 PM
Wow, a blast from the past! Are those videos still around? I remember those.:)

And thus law enforcement must relearn the lessons of Miami. CRS Syndrome in full effect.

Geno
April 4, 2007, 12:24 PM
El Tejon:

Sure are. Excellent viewing are they not? I am glad that I viewed them before deciding what to buy for home defense.

A side note, if you cannot afford a .50 BMG, worry not. A hard-cast 12 gauge slug can penetrate near as well as a .50 BMG, at least through walls, auto doors/windshields, etc. And these are the type situations in which most of us would have to shoot in defense of self/family.

Dooc2005

Sniper X
April 4, 2007, 12:47 PM
I didn;t hear the word FRANGEABLE once in that story! I still can;t beleive the "talking heads" are so gun stupid that they still can;t even research on the internet to see the correct terminology for that device they are doing a story on.

El Tejon
April 4, 2007, 12:50 PM
Doc, got .50USMGs, I just don't light them off in my neighborhood. I actually like my neighbors (sometimes, when they are not putting sharks in their windows or sending their dogs into my yard).:D

Yes, those old videos are excellent. I recommend them to all new shooters to help dispel the movie myths.:)

Tex, sorry for the thread detour. We now return you to the topic at hand--the ammo of DPD.:)

ZeSpectre
April 4, 2007, 01:27 PM
Well let's see what the Buick O Truth has to say about vehicle penetration.
It appears that the windshield is not the best place to shoot, regardless of the ammo.
I remember when I first read that article and thought to myself, wow, a windshield provides some cover but no concealment. Took me a while to work my brain around that one.

AR-15 Rep
April 4, 2007, 01:53 PM
Well with todays cars being more aerodynamic, the front windscreen of a car is angled more. There are a few rounds that are 127grain .223 that may (because of mass only) have done an effective penetration but the ft per second is 975. The tips of most .223 ammo would just make the rounds skip like throwing a rock on water because of the angle fired from and the angle of the windshield.

bogie
April 4, 2007, 02:09 PM
Guys, the way those bullets are designed, the plastic tip goes back into the cavity of a hollowpoint, and encourages it to expand.

HANDGUN bullets are gonna skip. I don't think that something small and pointy (even in the process of expanding) that is going over 2,000 fps is gonna skip all that much.

The front seat woulda been full of rapidly moving little jaggies, at worst. And they'd have pretty much the same effect going through a door.

The guy ducked, they fired at the windshield, and then he got a shot off.

ball3006
April 4, 2007, 02:57 PM
the DPD trains their officers to point their guns "gangsta style", that is, hold it over your head sideways. I have seen this several times on TV. The latest police chief may have corrected this practice though......I have been shooting plastic tipped 223 for 20 years and it works just fine for me....chris3

Geno
April 4, 2007, 03:00 PM
Not all ballistic tips or hollow points fail to hold together during penetration. It is the internal structure of a bullet that is critical, not the tip. The tip effects flight characteristics, and contributes to rapid exansion.

Point to consider, I have some factory-loaded, 165 grain .300 Win Fail Safe Hollow Points that penetrate a plow blade at 300 yards. I know, they are a 7.62 round not a 5.56, but all the same, it the internal structure of a projectile that counts. These Fail Safes have steel internals that help to hold them together through some extraordinary penetration. Do the 5.56s that the police use have the same or not? If not, they should have.

Personally, I believe the police should be using rounds loaded with Barnes X-bullets...they seem to me to be the best of both worlds...penetration and expansion.

JMHO

tnieto2004
April 4, 2007, 03:34 PM
Did I hear correct? They said he was hit 57 times .. AND SURVIVED??:what:

mdao
April 4, 2007, 03:36 PM
I didn;t hear the word FRANGEABLE once in that story! I still can;t beleive the "talking heads" are so gun stupid that they still can;t even research on the internet to see the correct terminology for that device they are doing a story on.

Except that the DPD isn't using frangible rounds. They're using ballistic tipped rounds. Big difference. It just so happened that the rounds did fragment since they ran into something harder than they were, i.e. windshield safety glass, so bullet integrity failed and they fragmented.

HANDGUN bullets are gonna skip. I don't think that something small and pointy (even in the process of expanding) that is going over 2,000 fps is gonna skip all that much.

Deflection resistance is more of an issue of momentum than velocity. Still, unless the angle of incidence is really high, .223 won't skip off of the windshield.

Course, skipping isn't the only issue. Against a windshield from the outside, ballistic .223 will deflect downward and fragment. It'll hurt, yeah, but penetration on BG is going to suck until the windshield's integrity is compromised. The BG could have been hit through the windshield a few times, resulting in shallow wounds, before he got a shot off.

I figure equipping the police with lever actions in .45/70 instead of AR-15s would fix this issue. :scrutiny:

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