Poll: 8+1 in 1911, Is It Enough?


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combatantr2
April 4, 2007, 02:01 PM
A poll question. Is 8+1 in 1911/45Acp enough for an all around self-defense use? Or do you wish more?

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waynedm
April 4, 2007, 02:04 PM
Where's the poll?

DawgFvr
April 4, 2007, 02:09 PM
1 should be enough if you hit them between the eyes...or through the heart...or snap their spine...etc.


Now time...that is another matter....I wrote this down from some article I read a while ago; it smacks of veracity:

"Time: The time you take to position yourself on the range is probably longer than most gunfights last. Confrontations are sudden affairs, over in 2 to 3 seconds, in the majority of cases. Almost never is there time to cock your gun, stand in profile, and take careful aim at your target. You and the suspect together are not likely to fire more than 3 shots, whether the situation is an ambush, armed robbery, or family fight. In the majority of cases, the initial exchange of fire will determine the outcome. The speed in which you can react to danger, therefore, is likely to be a more critical commodity than the amount of ammunition you have at your disposal. You probably carry more ammunition than you will ever need, but time is almost always in short supply."

Dobe
April 4, 2007, 02:22 PM
It hard to believe that one could expect to solve a social problem with 16, if he or she cannot solve it with 7.

dhoomonyou
April 4, 2007, 02:28 PM
on how many Zombies there are.

DoubleTapDrew
April 4, 2007, 02:29 PM
It depends on the situation. Hopefully 1 is enough. It would always be nice to have more than was needed. If I carried an 8 shot gun though I'd feel a lot more comfortable carrying an extra mag too. That's a good idea anyway, since if you run into a mag problem a simple tap rack bang may not fix it.

I thought the Para Ord. P14 was a great solution until I shot one. My paws aren't big enough to be comfortable with those. I haven't handled a Springfield XD45 yet but those may be a good solution.

hexidismal
April 4, 2007, 02:43 PM
Even though my .45s are carried with 8 round mags, I tend to keep them with 7 +1 in the chamber. I'm quite comfortable with that, and it eases my mag springs a little.

EDIT: I should note that I also typically carry a 10 round spare

sargenv
April 4, 2007, 02:55 PM
I guess it wasn't enough, otherwise why would para make a double stack 14 round 1911? :)

Vince

ArchAngelCD
April 4, 2007, 03:02 PM
Since I feel FIVE .38 Sp rounds are enough I'm sure 8+1 of .45 Auto is more than enough.

Sorry, but if you need more than that for a "normal" SD situation you should carry a machine gun or hire a bodyguard.

possum
April 4, 2007, 03:06 PM
i didn't vote yet because it depends on the situation, and how much ammo i would carry for example. at a minimum i would carry an 8rd mag +1 in the chamber locked and cocked. and a spare as well. but personally if i was carrying the gun openly or in a shoulder rig where it dosen't really matter how far the mag hangs out then i would carry 2 10rd mags.

as far as a paddle type holster on the side. i would carry a 7+1 or 8+1 even better. in the weapon and a 10rd for the spare. the short mag for concealability.

STAGE 2
April 4, 2007, 03:09 PM
As the old saying goes, if you can't do it with 7+1 then you shouldn't have brought a pistol in the first place.

In all seriousness however, if the situation you suddenly find yourself in is too much for what you are carrying, you don't need a change of pistol, you need a change of tactics.

LubeckTech
April 4, 2007, 03:15 PM
It's not the size of youir insturment but how you use it!!!!!!
Thay being said IF you hit a critter 2 or 4 legged with 9 230 grain slugsand it remains standing time to reload and if you need another reload run or get more range time!!

Geno
April 4, 2007, 03:26 PM
The answer depends completely on how many bad guys there are. If there are one or two BGs, an 8-round magazine and 1 in the chamber is be enough, even with 3, you are okay if you don't miss any shots. With my 1911s, I carry an 8-round magazine in the pistol, and 1 round in the chamber. My back-up magazines are all 10-rounds each. What is more important is for the individual to take tactical and advanced tactical shooting courses, and then to practice. The single most important factors are accurate aim, followed by keep moving toward cover. JMHO.

Edit to add:

Regardless of primary caliber and amount of rounds, I always carry at least 1 back-up pistol, if not two back-ups.

possum
April 4, 2007, 04:42 PM
you also kepp in mind that if there are multiple bad guys there is a high possibility that after you drop one or two of thier buddies that the remainder are not gonna stick around. most people aren't that commited.

Reddbecca
April 4, 2007, 05:33 PM
A poll question. Is 8+1 in 1911/45Acp enough for an all around self-defense use? Or do you wish more?

Police always carry two extra magazines for their guns, why shouldn't you?

25 rounds of .45 caliber hollow pointed (or even FMJ) ammunition will ruin anybody's day.

Clipper
April 4, 2007, 05:37 PM
Since I'm eagerly awaiting arrival of the new Kahr PM.45, and it's only 5+1, I'd go with yes...

Youngster
April 4, 2007, 05:38 PM
The way I see it, 7 rounds onboard is enough to solve almost any problem, that a handgun is going to get you out of anyway.

SoCalShooter
April 4, 2007, 05:45 PM
Well depending on how many attackers you have to defend against 8 rounds + 1 in the hole should be enough. If you practice the regularily and use the mozambique techniuque, 3 rounds from a .45acp using good hollow point ammo ought to stop just about anyone as long as you get the CNS on the 3 shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

bakert
April 4, 2007, 05:46 PM
As a civilian going about my daily routine I'm not going to load myself down with multiple mags and/or other equipment. I stay out of certain areas but still try to remain aware of what's going on around me anytime I'm in public, don't look for trouble and am not the hero type. Sure, things can happen that I have no control of but I figure if I need more than 7+1 rds of .45ACP in any brand auto, I'm probably dead anyway.

Black Majik
April 4, 2007, 05:59 PM
Heck, I carry with 7 + 1 even though I have 8 round magazines. My reasons even came down to not having a magwell on my carry 1911, so I just wanted a flush fitting magazine. As long as the shot counts, I doubt that extra round would make that significant of a difference...

Blakenzy
April 4, 2007, 06:00 PM
How do you suppose you are going to hit AND PUT DOWN 3 armed adults before one of them plugs you with what ever he is carrying?

This notion is rather foolish. Just because you can get double taps on multiple stationary paper targets under one second doesn't mean you will be able to do so in a real confrontation with real, armed people, AND EVEN IF YOU DO, what makes you think that they will be instantly incapacitated and unable to return fire? If you are dealing with more than one armed attacker who get the drop on you, luck and the mercy of the armed criminals will be the determining factors concerning your survival.

Soybomb
April 4, 2007, 06:13 PM
Maybe, maybe not. Is having too many rounds a problem? :D

Walkalong
April 4, 2007, 06:15 PM
7+1 has been enough for a long, long, time.:)

jwerlc
April 4, 2007, 06:17 PM
All I know is, my 1911 isn't a single-shot. I may not need 'em all, but I want more than 1.

surjimmy
April 4, 2007, 06:43 PM
In all the (bad) news u hear everyday in your whole life. How many times have u heard of a civilian being killed after he shot all his ammo. Me never, most people will never fire even 1 round in defence 8+1 is more then enough. Just always be aware of your surroundings & be prepared.

Blakenzy
April 4, 2007, 06:44 PM
Sorry, I didn't really answer the poll question in my first post. Well I think that 7+1 are more than enough for a 1911 to fullfill its intended role which is to break contact. You draw, fire as many as you can while at the same time running to safety. Don't even think about sticking around to "kill 'em all". I would even dare to say that if you have a large amount of rounds you may be bolder and tempted to keep on firing instead of doing what you really should do: disappear.

Rob96
April 4, 2007, 06:58 PM
I use 8 round magazines but don't top it off after I chamber. So in essence I shoot 7+1.

yongxingfreesty
April 4, 2007, 07:12 PM
10mm in 1911 platform is 9+1 if you aren't too confident.

blackhills
April 4, 2007, 07:17 PM
This is where your training comes in. 7+1 should be enough. 13+1 is nice. Although I have the xd45 and the 1911 i like them both equally.

LOVE THE QUOTE

As the old saying goes, if you can't do it with 7+1 then you shouldn't have brought a pistol in the first place.

Pistol Toter
April 4, 2007, 08:06 PM
I voted 7 + 1 is enough, certianly ample. I own and occasionally carry a Glock model 21. This means that I am carring a 13+ 1, but I can't imagine ever really needing to discharge that thing 14 times and yet carry a spare magizine. God help me, if I was to ever get into such a fight. What is enough? I said, that I on occasion carried the Glock; most of the time I'm toting around a 5 shot snubnose .357 and feel well armed. As has been said many times the handgun is a poor weapon; it's just handy. A well placed .22 lr will stop an aggressor, but I don't choose to employ .22 because the target for it is quite small. The .380 and the .38 spl is nominal and for me anything smaller just doesn't get the job done. So any of the true "defensive calibres" if judiciously used / well placed can abbreviate a hostile confrontation. I carry 5 in a gun and suspect / hope and trust that I will not need all five to STOP an attacker. Seven plus one is enough, anything more is a desired redundency. Just my opinion, P.T.

Impala
April 4, 2007, 08:20 PM
7+1 is enough
7+1 is actually more than enough if you think about it.
A little more range time and soon any "spray and pray" type will see that shot placement CAN be achieved when the sights are used properly:D

If you can't hit 'em with the first 1 or 2 shots then there's something wrong there. I can see how the hi-caps can be a plus in a SHTF situ. however what with hoardes of brain hungry zombies coming at you from every angle. In that case the otherwise ridiculous Pro-Mag pistol drums can be all that stands between you and Jim Morrison's dinner plate.:evil:

10-Ring
April 4, 2007, 08:28 PM
8 rounds of 45 acp, if properly applied, is enough! ;)

THE DRILL INSTRUCTOR
April 4, 2007, 08:57 PM
I agree that 7+1 is enough. Just one would be enough.

But I still vote for 13+1. The way I think, you always need the maximum amount of resources that you can convieniently carry. Hopefully you'll never need it, but it's always there just in case.

Just imagine if you are at work and the SHTF. That extra six rounds in your magazine may be just what you needed to get you home to your long guns. Whether you ever need it or not, it's there for you.

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 4, 2007, 09:13 PM
I think about a lot of things in terms of probabilities. When it comes to being prepared, I think one needs to weigh the probability of events and then draw a line that balances preparedness with practicality.

Personally, I think that 8+1 would cover most of the things you likely to run into, but there is always a chance, however slim, you might need more.

You may never need to draw your gun in self-defense.

You are even less likely to have to shoot.

You are even less likely to have to shoot more than 3 times.

You are even less likely than that to go through 9 rounds.

You are even less likely to go through 17 rounds.

And this goes on forever... Somewhere, you have to draw the line, lest you find yourself carrying 5 guns with 6 reloads each.

Now, as far as a magazine jam that some people brought up... again, that's a probability thing. If you have fired 2000 rounds through your carry magazine without a single failure, how likely is it that if you actually need to shoot that you hit that failure. (I am pretty much guaranteeing Murphy will pay me a visit shortly.)

I say, make sure you have a gun, make sure you know it works, and hope probability is on your side. :D

Anyway, my point is that you need to evaluate the situations in which you might find yourself and try to balance that with that you think is reasonable.

I think that if you think of things in those terms, you'll find your answer. Good luck.

Police always carry two extra magazines for their guns, why shouldn't you?

The same reason I don't wear body armor, carry handcuffs, or drive a car with a partition to protect me from my passengers.

Neither my job nor my personal life require me to confront people who may or may not respond with violence merely due to my presence. I do not enter a burglary scene on a regular basis. I do not respond to calls involving domestic disputes.

Most of us carry concealed. We don't wear fancy duty belts with all kinds of things hanging off of them. Keeping things light and compact is key.

Sundles
April 4, 2007, 09:24 PM
Obviously 8+1 is enough for most civilian situations. However, I can see that 13+1 harms nothing and may in fact become a blessing under the right/wrong circumstances. Just ask a few of those guys who were stuck in the last L.A. riots.

The Canuck
April 4, 2007, 09:28 PM
I figure that when you have a .45 Auto loaded with 7 or 8 rounds plus one in the pipe, its good policy to carry at least one spare mag. My protocol is stop the criminal, secure the area, reload & call the police.

As for shooting at stationary paper targets v. running armed individuals who wish you harm it comes down to training your skill sets. If I am approached by an armed indivdual I will be seeking cover as I try to stop the threat. Will I stand there and present? No, I will be moving FAST. How many of those rounds are going to hit? I am hoping all of them. Realisitically, I can't say. I haven't had the chance to do any work on my dynamic fire drills since I left the Army. There has been no chance for me to practice due to range conditions. If you want to have 7+1 be your magic number, be sure you train to that end!

If you need to have forty-five rounds of ammo with you for self defence purposes, you should have done the following.

1). Brought a rifle.

2). Brought friends (with rifles).

Storm
April 4, 2007, 10:40 PM
I'm just fine with the 6+1 of a G36. Anything more than that is just icing on the cake.

Dustinthewind
April 4, 2007, 11:23 PM
I didn't vote because I dont carry +1. A fully loaded magazine wears out your magazines that much faster, by stripping one off the top you relieve the spring tension, afterall your gun is only as good as the magazine inserted into it. Also by stripping the top round from the magazine you will notice that the next round will be edged slightly forward creating a more reliable feed. At the range I have seen more jams after the first shot from guys that carry +1. I carry Five in my six round officers mags. If that is not enough I will pull my second gun, for afterall the quickest reload is a second gun.

sargenv
April 5, 2007, 12:15 AM
You mean you carry the same magazines over and over? If I were to carry, you can bet I'd be swapping mags out regularly or at least get new springs once a year. When I was shooting a bottom feeder in IPSC I changed mag springs once a year whether they needed it or not. An auto is only as reliable as it's magazines.

Personally, if I ever got into a situation where I was carrying and had to use it, I want as many rounds as possible. Better to have too much ammo than not enough. Unfortunately I don't live in a shall issue state :P

Vince

LightningJoe
April 5, 2007, 12:22 AM
7+1 is plenty. Does anyone know of any self-defense encounter anywhere, anytime, involving anyone in which a total of 8 rounds in the gun was not enough? Bear in mind the automatic pistol's principal virtue is quick reloading (i.e. the bullets don't have to be in the gun all at one time).

Black Majik
April 5, 2007, 12:41 AM
I didn't vote because I dont carry +1. A fully loaded magazine wears out your magazines that much faster, by stripping one off the top you relieve the spring tension,


Loaded magazines dont wear out the springs, it's the constant cycling of the spring that cause wear. You'll do more wear shooting your gun than leaving it loaded. At it's static state, whether compressed or uncompressed it won't put significant wear on your magazine springs.

kbheiner7
April 5, 2007, 12:48 AM
I carry 8+1 plus a spare or two and feel very comfortable with that.

That said, if I carried a hi-cap 9mm, I'd still carry an extra mag or two simply because it's an easy thing to do.

Sundles
April 5, 2007, 12:57 AM
LighteningJoe,

Yes. The Rodney King L. A. riots. Several folks were trapped in th riot zone and had to shoot and shoot lots to survive. Some of those guys went through hundreds of rounds of ammo.

I'll bet you money that a few survivors of hurricane Katrina sould tell of some real shootouts too.

Alaskapopo
April 5, 2007, 01:39 AM
I can't think of many situtaitons where you would live because you had 15 rounds before you had to reload vs having 8.
Popo. Just because you carry a 1911 does not mean you can't carry lots of ammo. Those single stack mags are easy to carry you will just have to reload more often.
Popo

Old Fuff
April 5, 2007, 01:45 AM
Seven-plus-one, and even less will do... :what:

If you can shoot straight, and I don't mean basketball-sized groups at 15 yards... :scrutiny: ;)

Autolycus
April 5, 2007, 01:55 AM
8+1 is enough. I would even say 7+1 is enough.

When I had my Kimber I was content to use Wilson Combat 47D mags. The mags I used had a capacity of 8 each. I felt perfectly content with that.

Currently I own an HK P2000. I am content with 12+1. I really like the .40 S&W round myself.

When I get another .45 it will probably be the HK45 with a capacity of 10+1.

After college and I have a real career I will buy a nice 1911 and plan to use 8 round mags again.

Dustinthewind
April 5, 2007, 02:33 AM
Black Majic.
Off the scope of the original thread but, yes cycling rounds through a magazine puts wear on the spring, but so doe's constant tension. The greater the tension the greater the fatigue rate and the most tension that can be placed on a magazine spring is when the magazine is loaded to full capacity. If you want to prove to yourself that you are right buy a couple of mags for your autoloader (you can always use extra mags) load one to full capacity and leave one empty, throw them in your safe and forget about them for six months or so, then check the tension on both springs. I think you will find the loaded magazine spring to be weaker than the unloaded magazine spring. I have inadvertently perfomed this task by leaving a magazine loaded for an extended period of time and found my hypothesis to be true, therefore I keep my mags in a constant state of rotation, changing out the ones in my carry guns weekly, and by changing out I mean unloading one and loading another.

Ala Dan
April 5, 2007, 03:47 AM
For me, 7+1 is plenty~! :cool: ;)

HKPRO
April 5, 2007, 04:01 AM
I prefer to have more and not need it then need it and not have it. So i voted for 13+. I do not feel that there should be a maximum limit either because once you say 7 is enough you leave yourself opened to be more governed. I do not feel that statistic's can predict my daily routine because anyhthing can happen anywhere. If you are ready and prepared you are more likely to survive and if you are not well, the outcome could be a bad one. Tunnel vision happen's and alot of people do not remember how many round's they shot in the heat of the moment,they only remember fearing for there lives. So if you pop off 3 and didn't realize wouldn't you want more there just in case.

CPshooter
April 5, 2007, 04:35 AM
I'd like to say yes, but you NEVER know what situation you will be in. I went on a cruise to the Bahamas w/ my girlfriend's family, and the Bahemian people are known to be very friendly and forward. This is true, but at the same time it is known to be a dangerous little country. My girlfriend, her mom, and I were walking towards a club at around midnight and we were being harrassed by 4 Bahemians. They were being very rude to the women and even said a couple words directed towards me... now when you hear stories about tourists getting mugged (and killed) all the time in the Bahamas you get a little freaked out. They left us alone as we started to near the night club, but for those moments where i was unarmed completely, alone in a dark place w/ 2 women, and would have easily gotten the s*** kicked out of me for all my money, ALLLL i could think about was "oh my god.. i dont have a gun on me.. even if i did how many shots will i need? ..i need to carry more bullets from now on..."

that was my only thought along with the fear of them doing something to my girlfriend and her mother. What if they pushed me further and action needed to be taken? What if they started beating me, and i was forced to draw my weapon??? Would i be able to wipe them all out while im on my back fighting for every queeze of the trigger with only 8 or 9 shots? lets say i kill one and
injure one.. that leaves the opportunity for the 2 good men to draw on me if they are packing. i've already squeezed out 4-5 shots.. do i have enough left for the last two??? that question made me rethink everything. I definitely think having more shots could only be a good thing.

I'd need at least 10 to be comfortable:D

Soybomb
April 5, 2007, 04:53 AM
7+1 is plenty. Does anyone know of any self-defense encounter anywhere, anytime, involving anyone in which a total of 8 rounds in the gun was not enough?
Do you have a repository of write ups of self defense uses by concealed carry people? I sometimes see a writeup of where ccw'ers have used their guns but I seldom see any reports on the number of rounds fired. The ones that were killed because they ran out aren't very vocal either. :evil:

Seriously though I've never seen a good compilation on the data of concealed carry weapons use, I'd love to see it if you know where to find it.

That said to answer your first question a 1994 robbery of beverly hills jewelers in richmond virginia where the owners had 11 snubs, 1 .44mag, and a 12ga. I believe the owners fired something like 30-40 rounds during the robbery defending themselves against 2 attackers. Thats certainly the extreme scenario, but I'd personally like to see numbers. What percent would we be comfortable with? 85% don't require more than 9 shots? 90%? 95%? We're already preparing a very unlikely event.

ArchAngelCD
April 5, 2007, 05:37 AM
He wouldn't have needed 30-40 rounds if he could hit what he aimed at.

BTW, protecting a store which has high value merchandise is totally different than SD CCW.

Sundles
April 5, 2007, 01:14 PM
Apparantly the L.A. riots dont count here, but I promise it counted for the folks that were carrying in L.A. when those riots happened. Numerous citizens fired dozens or even hundreds of rounds during the four days of rioting, in defense of self and others. What? No other riots will ever happen any where in the US again? Right!

Ever heard of being attacked by a gang? It is more common than some of us sheltered folks may understand.

Lets assume that only 3% of all civilian shootings require more than 4 shots. Heres the problem. If you have to draw and fire your weapon, we've already established that you are having a bad day. So, can we not further establish that if things are not going your way, they may continue to deteriorate and you may find yourself smack in the situation of needing more ammo? If you find yourself in the 3% minority, it will be 100% odds for you at the moment!!

If you are responsible/concerned enough to carry a gun in the first place, why not consider the POTENTIAL need for more ammo???? This is a fair and reasonable question, no?

45auto
April 5, 2007, 01:33 PM
More ammo can never be bad.

But, at what price, i.e. thicker, wider gun, etc. If you can live with it...no problem. If not, I would have no problem carrying a J frame if the odds are 97% that you never need more than 4 rounds. You live with "odds" all the time with everyday life.

Of course, it depends on your environment, job, etc which "alter" the odds in the slim chance that you will ever need to use a gun for self-defense.

Both "issues" to me, are greatly "piece of mind" issues like insurance as oppossed to real life...given the odds.

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 5, 2007, 01:58 PM
Apparantly the L.A. riots dont count here, but I promise it counted for the folks that were carrying in L.A. when those riots happened. Numerous citizens fired dozens or even hundreds of rounds during the four days of rioting, in defense of self and others.

This claim really needs a citation. I would be particularly interested in the people who were out in the streets carrying hundreds of rounds on a daily basis.

Ever heard of being attacked by a gang? It is more common than some of us sheltered folks may understand.


Again, let's have a citation with some multiple assailant attacks. I'd be particularly interested in the ones where single person with lots of ammo successfully held off a gang. Do these common gang attacks include gang members running in one or two a time so a qualified marksman can pick them off?

Lets assume that only 3% of all civilian shootings require more than 4 shots. Heres the problem. If you have to draw and fire your weapon, we've already established that you are having a bad day. So, can we not further establish that if things are not going your way, they may continue to deteriorate and you may find yourself smack in the situation of needing more ammo? If you find yourself in the 3% minority, it will be 100% odds for you at the moment!!

You may find yourself in a position where you wish you had body armor and a long gun as well. Do you recommend we all carry those at all times?

If you are responsible/concerned enough to carry a gun in the first place, why not consider the POTENTIAL need for more ammo???? This is a fair and reasonable question, no?

Sure, it's worth considering. However, as it is obvious here, many of us have considered it and decided against it. It isn't fair and reasonable to keep beating us over the head with this "LOOK AT THE LA RIOTS" hysteria to try to prove your point.

tostada
April 5, 2007, 02:09 PM
I don't think I'd trust many opinions in this thread seeing as so many people are wrong about the basics of how magazines work.

It's kinda sad that it took till post 41 before Black Majik mentioned that springs don't wear out simply from being under tension, and then Dustinthewind turned right around and told him he was wrong.

Putting more tension on a spring simply doesn't make it wear out faster. At least not in a remotely significant way. There are plenty instances of people having fully loaded magazines left over from WWI and WWII which operated perfectly. There are also plenty pistol mags with good springs that get worn out after a year because they are constantly cycled. Rotating magazines simply means that all your magazines will get worn out equally.

I beg people like Dustinthewind to try their little "leave a loaded mag in a safe" game again and try to pay a little more attention and you'll see that the mag doesn't wear out in any noticable way unless you have a faulty mag that was actually loaded beyond its design limit.

As far as the actual poll, it's definitely more about training. The saddest thing I've seen in reports over and over is when a police officer shoots the standard double-tap and then the 3% of the time that the perp doesn't drop, he doesn't just keep shooting.

It's pretty easy to squeeze off 8 or more shots in 2 seconds, and it's going to take someone that long to hit the ground a lot of times even if the first shot did the trick. Obviously predicting another L.A. Riots or Katrina is a little out there; it's not totally absurd, but statistically your chances of running into a problem with one or two people is much greater. It's that possibility of a second person that would concern me. When I think of situations where I felt like things could go bad quickly, I can only think of one with a single steroid-crazy skinhead pounding on my car. The others all involved multiple people, whether it one guy trying to start something up with his friend, or one guy trying to start something up with a car loaded with four friends who looked ready to back him up.

So I'd like to have a solid eight shots to empty quickly, and not be worried about conserving ammo should a second assailant decide amazingly that he feels like sticking around.

There's always the Manchurian thing, where you shoot twice then go for the headshot, but I'm just not sure what I think of that. I'll practice that kind of thing at the range some, but if I'm full of adrenaline, I'm not sure I would want to stop shooting at a guy's chest to take an aimed shot at his head. I also worry a little about actually having to point the gun up shooting in any kind of public place. Who knows where that bullet's going to land?

doubleg
April 5, 2007, 02:13 PM
:D For normal defense cituations it is more than enough. But if your in a full blown shootout I would perfer something else. Glock 34 anyone?

Youngster
April 5, 2007, 02:16 PM
Gun capacity and the # of rounds that you have immediately available for reload are two different things, there's no reason why someone with a single stack 1911 couldn't carry a like total # of rounds as someone with a double stack pistol. In fact I find the 7 round mags so easy to carry I'd rather pack 3of them for every double row mag.

JohnBT
April 5, 2007, 02:23 PM
"Police always carry two extra magazines for their guns, why shouldn't you?"

Because I practice more than the average police officer? There must be a reason, no?

Oh, I remember now. It's because I don't have to go around with a target pinned to my chest.

John

1man
April 5, 2007, 02:39 PM
I voted for 8+1 because if I have to feed anyone some lead, I give them a double expresso. I don't count my shots but I can count engagement(s) per threat and if I reach 4 engagement I can reload with 1 more still ready-to-go.
I perfer shooting double stack guns over single stack(just my preference). But I'll always love to have more rounds than I need when I go to combat.

ZeSpectre
April 5, 2007, 02:42 PM
Eight, plus one good COVER will do me fine :D

mpmarty
April 5, 2007, 02:58 PM
I voted seven plus one even though I carry ten plus one in my Mil Pro PT145. The reason is the PT145 is smaller and conceals easier than my full size 45s do and it just happens to carry ten plus one. If I had it to do over again I might even buy the PT745 which is a true seven plus one in an even smaller package. If you need more than three or four rounds to stop a situation you have violated the situational awareness doctrine.

ZeSpectre
April 5, 2007, 03:02 PM
If I had it to do over again I might even buy the PT745 which is a true seven plus one in an even smaller package.

mpmarty
Actually the PT-145 and the PT-745 are almost exactly the same size.

Sundles
April 5, 2007, 03:21 PM
Jorg,

I dont need a "citation". Crud, do you think I kept notes from that long ago in order to convince uniformed peopel 17 years later? I dont give a rip if you believe me or not, but you may want to pay attention, cause it all happened.

I was in CA when those riots erupted. The local news carried scenes that the national news didnt. I remember two guys that broke into a gun shop to protect themselves from a gang and fired many hundreds of rounds at that gang and survived. I cant and wont give a needless citation, but I watched it on TV as those two guys shot it out for over an hour with about 15 armed gang members. A news helcopter was filming.

I remember a large firearmes/ammo distributor in LA that was hit by looting mobs. All the buildings around them were set on fire from the mobs. They, on the other hand, placed about 10 men with AR 15s' on the roof of their building and held off the mobs. This was also filmed by a news reporter in a helocopter.

I remeber news footage (this one aired nationaly) of Reginald Denny being drug out of his truck in a riot caused traffic jam. He was beaten, had his skull crushed with a brick and was left to die in the streets of LA and no one intervened. After he was left for dead, some gang banger walked up and shot him at point blank with a 12 gauge. At the time this was happening, I commented to my wife how different the out come would have been if I was driving that truck instead of Reginald.

I remember news footage of several neighborhoods that barricaded their streets off with cars and with armed men--and saved thier neighborhoods in the process.

These riots werent the first deadly riots in LA. 20 years earlier, they had the Watts riots, in which more people were killed than in the Rodney King riots. I belive similar riots have occured in NY, SF, and Detroit over the years. Never mind Katrina.

My point certainly isnt that a riot is comming to your town soon, far from it. My point is that too much ammo is better than too little ammo. Any attemtp on our part to rationalize or figure what will or wont happen to us in this life, is a feeble, at best, attempt. Being ignorant of the facts certainly wont help. At least we can be informed. Heck, most folks choose not to carry any form of protection at all--they can have it.

Public unrest and civil disobenience is a greater and greater reality as this society with all its moral problems deteriorates more an more. Just wait till a big earth quake comes to an urban area near you. I'm not going to "cite" that either, believe it or not, your choice, wont effect me. Each person will make those decisions for themselves. Since you asked, this thread was about how much ammo to carry, not body armor and long guns.

sb350hp
April 5, 2007, 03:26 PM
Well since I am not in SWAT or in Iraq I figure If I cannot take care of the situation with 8+1 or even 7+1 I am probably in bigger trouble than I can shoot my way out of.

If you have emptied you mag and the attacker is still advancing:
1st. your a terrible shot and 14 misses is no different than 1 or 7.

2nd. You had better be prepared to go hand to hand (depending on distance between you and the attacker) at 7 yds you have like what 3 seconds to aquire fire before he is in your face!

3rd. If you are greatly outnumbered the gun is intended to be a deterrant and or used to buy time to escape. If you think just cuz you have a gun you can stand your ground no matter what circumstance you are facing. You will probably end up dead or have a major ego/anger problem.
I carry to avoid not confront. If confronted I pray I make the right choices and am able to defend myself/family. We can talk all we want but until it really happens we just don't know.

As the old TV sitcom says "8" is enough

Sundles
April 5, 2007, 03:48 PM
sb350hp,

I vividly remember watching the Reginald Denny thing over and over and wondering how I would have got out of that situation.... If I did everything correctly and quickly, I'll bet I could have delivered myself with 8 rounds of ammo. In those days, I was carrying a Para Ordiance P14 and I normally carried two spare mags. with it. I'm pretty sure that the 40+ rounds I was carrying would have given me a better advantage than 8.

I am not an alarmist, but I'm not an ostrich either.

Still 2 Many Choices!?
April 5, 2007, 04:54 PM
Having said that, for some wierd reason, If I carry my 1911(7+1), I ALWAYS carry an extra mag. If I carry my Glock 23(10+1), with only a 3 round difference, I don't always carry the extra mag:confused: . What can I say, I'm quriky like that.

Still 2 Many Choices!?

22LongRifle
April 5, 2007, 05:19 PM
5 plus another 5 in a speed strip has gotten me and the family this far....

I'm responible for three kids and a wife plus who ever the kids drag along. My first objective is to get them safety AWAY from the threat. I don't have any bussiness starting a "shootout" with a minivan full of little leaguers.

But, and its a big but, I get caught in St Louis or Paduach during a "bad situation", I hope I have enough AWARENESS is get to the van and get the hell out of there. In the van, I've got supplies and weapons better than a handgun. I've got ALOT of ammo for them!

As far as gangs, I've worked correction for 15 years. "Gangsters" are alot like wild animals. They are VERY dangerous in packs, but when you kill the first one or they "realize" you are going to fight back and are not an easy target, they retreat. Why did the Koreans ond other folks who armed themselves during the RK Roits not lose property, because they stood their ground and SHOWED they were NOT an easy target. I doubt they were walking around with longguns waiting for the day to use them. They had them ready WHEN NEEDED and IN REACH.

Carrying a handgun is compermise (sp?) AT BEST. I would rather have a good carbine in ANY centerfire caliber over a handgun during anytime of the day. If I'm only allowed eight rounds, give me a Garand! I but those eight rounds stop a BG! But we can't do that. We can't secure or 30/30 on the rifle rack on the shooping cart at WalMart while we get some fishing worms and snacks. We have to walk around with a weapon hidden so some sheep doesn't freak out and pee on themselves. And if the we feel the threat is real enough, we do it illegally.

Yep, I think 7+1 is enough, enough to get me to some real firepower!

Jerry

MikePGS
April 5, 2007, 07:02 PM
If you can do this http://youtube.com/watch?v=vuOOeq8uki4 it doesen't matter how many cartridges there are in a magazine:P

.357 magnum
April 5, 2007, 07:45 PM
My primary home defense weapon is a Springfield XD .45acp 5 inch barrel 13 shot mag one in the chamber. The back-up gun [always loaded] is a Taurus 24/7 .40 cal 15 in the mag one in the chamber. Having 29 shots of high power ammo on hand probably seems like over kill. But the variables none of us can control, are how many perp's may threaten our lives, and how well armed they may be. So to sum it up, if I am going down, I'm going down fighting! Hope everyone has a nice evening!

The Best to all!

Frank

Dustinthewind
April 5, 2007, 11:16 PM
tostada

Since I brought this up:uhoh: I have a friend that is an engineer, the mechanical and structural kind, not the train kind, and this is what he told me. A spring held at maximum compression will relax more over time than a spring that is cycled between high stress and low stress. The reason being that the spring spends more time at the higher stress level. Also humidity and temperature factor into spring relaxation. He also said that a springs failure rate is directly related to the tempering process when the spring is manufactured. My experience is that I have had several magazines that have been loaded for extended periods of time and the springs have weakened significantly, not to the point of malfunction but enough that I would not risk my life with them. Your experiences with magazines may differ from mine as may your opinions.

Soybomb
April 5, 2007, 11:44 PM
If you have emptied you mag and the attacker is still advancing:
1st. your a terrible shot and 14 misses is no different than 1 or 7.
I'm not sure that I'd agree and even if I did I'm not sure it'd matter. I think the NYPD study I saw was something like 20% of all their shots were hits, the rest misses. We all have our own opinions of our skills and confidence, but there's some people with a little training who miss with 7-8 of those 9 shots. Maybe its the stress, maybe its the problem of hitting a moving target while moving, maybe its the difficulty of being accurate while shooting behind cover...either way. I'm feeling pretty confident with stationary practice and hitting a bullseye, but I would like more shooting and moving practice and I just can't do that every time I go to the range.

That aside you're counting on a couple hits to be a stopper. You can certainly get hits and still have a person bleedng and attacking for another 30 seconds. I'd rather be able to keep putting holes in an attacker that isn't ready to quit before he loses enough blood. It doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad shot, just that handguns aren't amazing man stoppers and your attacker hasn't decided to quit yet.

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