South African Ammo Problems


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frostbiker
April 4, 2007, 02:39 PM
Just caught this blurb on CNN.com. Here's the link:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/africa/04/04/safrica.arms.reut/index.html

JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Reuters) -- South Africa's state arms agency Armscor sold hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition into the open market in conflict with government policy, Business Day newspaper said on Wednesday.

The newspaper said a secret forensic report in 2005 showed Armscor had sold ammunition for AK-47, R-4 and R-5 rifles to Industrie Spreewerk Lubben in Germany "ostensibly for destruction and onward sale to companies in the U.S.".

"(This) has seen the U.S. market flooded with military and police surplus ammunition from South Africa. Apparently the ammunition is openly advertised on the Internet," the newspaper said, citing a copy of the report.

Armscor was not immediately available for comment.

The agency, formed as part of the secretive military apparatus of apartheid-ruled South Africa, vowed to become more transparent with the advent of multi-racial democracy in 1994.

Business Day said the ammunition sales could damage South Africa's reputation as a leader of global efforts to crack down on small arms proliferation.

"The report contains a litany of allegations over Armscor officials exporting ammunition on the basis of expired end-user certificates for Guyana," it said, adding that it also showed Armscor officials bypassing South Africa's National Conventional Arms Control Committee.

The newspaper said the November 2005 report by First Consulting also detailed a breach of national security in the export of Ratel infantry assault vehicles with top-secret codes and algorithms in place.

It said in all, there were eight exports of ammunition to Germany between 1998-2005 in contravention of a cabinet decision in 1997 that all surplus ammunition should be destroyed.

We might not be seeing much more in the way of South African surplus for a while.

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DMK
April 4, 2007, 02:43 PM
(This) has seen the U.S. market flooded with military and police surplus ammunition from South Africa. Apparently the ammunition is openly advertised on the Internet," the newspaper said, citing a copy of the report.

Oh the horror! :uhoh:

I should email them a pic of my stash. :D

BigO01
April 4, 2007, 02:46 PM
Well they didn't flood the market enough as it has dried up and I need more !

El Tejon
April 4, 2007, 02:57 PM
And so Azania rears its ugly socialist head.

emitt1
April 4, 2007, 04:20 PM
Makes me want to walk into my storage locker and kiss every little round.

Black Majik
April 4, 2007, 07:36 PM
Oh great, now it's gonna be a collectable and prices are gonna go waay up.

Wait.... it's already happened... :D

Ian Sean
April 4, 2007, 08:10 PM
I have a dozen or so SA battle packs saved up from the good old days...paid $30 each for them just 2 year ago. I see they are going for over $60 in some places.

My FAL's will be fed.

ec-10
April 4, 2007, 09:19 PM
Does anybody know if the ATF could get involved in this? Could they come after people who have purchased SA ammo over the web?

MechAg94
April 4, 2007, 11:36 PM
Why? It isn't like it was illegally imported or anything.

markk
April 5, 2007, 12:38 AM
three rifles mentioned in the article

R4 and R5 =5.56x45
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R4_assault_rifle

AK-47=7.62x39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ak-47

my cases of SA surplus=7.62x51

kinda makes you wonder where the BS ends and the truth begins

Cesiumsponge
April 5, 2007, 12:53 AM
Oh noes, dar interwebs!

Now the SA ammo will have to compete with Pakistani and Eastern Bloc surplus ammunition.

Leitmotif
April 5, 2007, 04:11 AM
markk: you've probably got surplus for the old R1 battle rifles. Retired after the border war.

The problem is that our NCACC is incompetent. They never do any damn thing, and Armscor was losing tons of cash while the ammo mouldered away. So they went proactive and now the paper-pushers are pissed that their almighty process - of doing nothing - wasn't followed.

El Tejon
April 5, 2007, 08:33 AM
Suid Afrikan R1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_FAL#South_Africa

PILMAN
April 5, 2007, 08:45 AM
So where can I get some of this fine ammo :D

deltacharlie
April 5, 2007, 10:26 AM
what's the problem? leaglly imported, lawful product, sold on the open market?

i used to have some dealings with S. Africa, so i've got it straight from the horses mouth. crime there is so rampant in their glorious post-aprtheit society that people have taken to builing walls around their homes, they stay off the streets at night and it is not uncommon to see a dead body sprawled out on the street each morning. most of S. Africa makes mexico look like a crimefree utopia!!

if anything those poor folk need MORE ammo!

PILMAN
April 5, 2007, 12:51 PM
Would it be legal for me to have a friend ship me south african ammo if he lives in south africa?

Leitmotif
April 5, 2007, 03:44 PM
PILMAN: completely illegal from our side.

delta: Yeah, I grew up accepting as fact that no one ever leaves a door or gate unlocked... sigh. Dead bodies... I've only seen a few, it's not an everyday thing. Although with 50-51 reported murders a day, it's everyday for someone. Note I say reported, because a lot of crime goes unreported.

However, despite the indications that we need to be armed, the cops give people endless hassles when trying to license a gun. Also they tend to charge people who use guns in self-defense with murder... usually dropped, but it's handy as an intimidation tactic.

Main issue is an average person is limited to owning 200 rounds of ammunition for each gun, and four guns maximum. However, it is insanely difficult to license more than one. Sigh. So a lack of ammo isn't much of an issue. We produce way more than gets used.

deltacharlie
April 5, 2007, 04:04 PM
However, despite the indications that we need to be armed, the cops give people endless hassles when trying to license a gun. Also they tend to charge people who use guns in self-defense with murder... usually dropped, but it's handy as an intimidation tactic. maybe your government is the problem?

Main issue is an average person is limited to owning 200 rounds of ammunition for each gun, and four guns maximum. However, it is insanely difficult to license more than one. Sigh. So a lack of ammo isn't much of an issue. We produce way more than gets used. pity, that.
this is a prime example of how a peaceful peoples are oppressed from both sides (criminals and government) and should be using the "soapbox, ballot box and ammo box" in order to affect change.

the folk i worked with from s. africa were very decent people who just wanted to (and deserved to) live in peace.

they overthrew one form of government which was oppressing them ... why not get rid of one that won't protect you or allow you to protect yourself? (*)


Leitmotif, stay safe.
Ta!



(*) i know, easier said than done.

Headless
April 5, 2007, 04:18 PM
One of my friends grew up in south africa, and a client of mine still has family living there. Violence situation is 'serious' there, for sure. Her brother is part of some kind of localized militia/police force apparently. She's got some crazy, CRAZY stories.

Leitmotif
April 5, 2007, 04:46 PM
delta: no maybes about it, the government *is* the problem. However, since they got into power they've done less than nothing to improve the status of the generally uneducated formerly opressed black citizens who make up the vast majority of the electorate. These people believe that without the ANC it'd be back to Apartheid, and the ANC keeps up the bogeyman routine by regularly blaming Apartheid and race for everything - particularly their own lack of delivery.

An educated, independent, informed electorate is the ANC's nightmare. Telecoms costs are high, so internet usage is low. Newspapers targetted at ANC voters spew the same racist propaganda the party does. The TV news on all of the public channels but one is controlled by the government. Lovely, no?

Long story short: the ANC government does what it damn well feels like, and is staying where it is until the voters get educated. Which won't be anytime soon, if the ANC have anything to say about it.

Headless: the localised militia thing is probably one of the Boeremag splinters. ANC disbanded the Boeremag, but a lot of the groups kept going in outlying areas since farm murders are such a massive bloody problem. Local militias are frowned on by the ANC.

Headless
April 5, 2007, 05:07 PM
Yes, Leitmotif - that sounds like the word she used though the spelling is 'strange' compared to how i heard her pronounce it. It's particularly interesting that you would mention outlying communities & farm murders as that is exactly what she was speaking of when she explained what her brother was involved in. From what I've heard, they get the job done, and they get it done in a very serious manner. Seems like a very serious situation from your comments here and what I have heard. Without the militia in place, from what she has said, there would be complete anarchy in that area and rape, murder and other viciousness would be constant and totally unrestrained. They ARE the law in that area and there is no other enforcement presence to help, as far as I understand it.

Leitmotif
April 5, 2007, 05:35 PM
Well, yes. The govt quote stats of x many cops per person. However, most of those cops are deployed in urban areas, and 1 cop per 30* people doesn't help in areas where 30 people live in about 150 square kilometers of land or more. The various militias help a hell of a lot on farms and plots. Some have got pretty proactive, getting their communities to install GSM panic buttons that alert all neighbours in the area to come over with their rifles.

I forget that afrikaans pronounciation follows different rules, being that I learned the languages concurrently and run automatic pattern recognition on them. Home language is english though. Boeremag is pronounced boo - raa - maagh. The gh sound has no english equivalent that I know of, sort of a low dragging gurgle. :p


*note: the actual figure is around one cop to 360 citizens, but in outlying areas this rises to about 1 cop per 800 citizens. The distances involved are vast.

ETXhiker
April 5, 2007, 09:50 PM
OK - so, waar is hierdie ammo? Ek kan dit nie vind in winkels hier in Texas. Ons will Suid Afrikaanse qualiteit he. Amandla! :evil:

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