CNN says FBI Agent's Weapon Accidentally fired...On it's Own!


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JLStorm
April 5, 2007, 09:38 PM
I am so sick of these excuses:
"Preliminary information suggests an FBI agent killed Thursday during a shootout with three bank-robbery suspects in New Jersey may have been fatally wounded when another agent's weapon accidentally fired"


I dont know if I should be more upset with the FBI, or the media....



NEW YORK (CNN) -- Preliminary information suggests an FBI agent killed Thursday during a shootout with three bank-robbery suspects in New Jersey may have been fatally wounded when another agent's weapon accidentally fired, the bureau said in a statement.

Barry Lee Bush, 52, a special agent assigned to the Newark, New Jersey FBI office, died after the shootout in Readington, New Jersey. Bush was wounded during a "dynamic arrest situation," the FBI said.

"Special Agent Bush and his team were in pursuit of heavily armed serial bank robbers who are believed to be responsible for four bank robberies," according to a statement from the bureau. "In two of those robberies, the suspects, armed with assault weapons, fired rounds while inside the bank."

As in any case of a shooting involving an agent, a team of investigators from the FBI's Inspection Division would conduct a review, the FBI said, and will coordinate their efforts with state and local authorities in New Jersey.

One person was still being sought, the FBI said.

The shootout occurred in a parking lot across the street from a PNC Bank branch in Readington, about 45 miles outside New York.

Earlier, a law enforcement official told CNN two people were in custody while a third was being sought. Close to 100 officers from several agencies were participating in the search for the remaining robbery suspect, New Jersey State Police Capt. Al Della Fave said.

The suspect was described as a 6-foot-2 male who is missing a shoe. Afterward, authorities closed U.S. Route 22, a major artery in front of the bank, and a mass of FBI agents and police flooded the scene.

Bush, 52, joined the FBI in 1987 in Kansas City, Missouri and transferred to Newark in 1991, the FBI said. He is survived by his wife and two children.

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Standing Wolf
April 5, 2007, 09:49 PM
See? That proves it: only the police and military can be trust with those terrible awful dangerous powerful scary guns.

Hoppy590
April 5, 2007, 09:51 PM
already in discusion http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3269552&posted=1 :neener:

LeonCarr
April 5, 2007, 09:52 PM
Whatever.

In 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the cases where a firearm "accidentally" goes off, someone or some object touched the trigger.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

gdvan01
April 5, 2007, 10:27 PM
I am so sick of these excuses:
"Preliminary information suggests an FBI agent killed Thursday during a shootout with three bank-robbery suspects in New Jersey may have been fatally wounded when another agent's weapon accidentally fired"Sounds like the official rub that explains "we hire morons that can't handle themselves when the bell rings."

It's truly unfortunate when family members have to deal with the loss as a result of incompetence.

.cheese.
April 5, 2007, 10:29 PM
my guns must just be stubborn because no matter what, they won't go off by themselves.

Zero_DgZ
April 5, 2007, 10:35 PM
Well, okay. The gun "went off by itself." Time to string up the armorer who maintained and repaired that pistol, and the officer who carried it for not checking its functionality...

Let's see how far that flies.

TBeck
April 5, 2007, 11:06 PM
Well, okay. The gun "went off by itself." Time to string up the armorer who maintained and repaired that pistol, and the officer who carried it for not checking its functionality...


Nah, the armorer would get promoted. Why, you ask? Previous examples; such as an FBI sniper "accidentally" shooting a woman in the head while she was holding an infant. The sniper was subsequently reassigned...as a firearms instructor. :scrutiny:

JLStorm
April 5, 2007, 11:16 PM
I find it hard to believe that the FBI agent doing the shooting or getting shot wasnt well trained...which makes the word "accidental" even more upsetting.

Again...if a mere civilian non leo did this...life as they knew it would be over. They would have shot the guy, they would have to face the family...but in this case I suppose the gun will have to apologize to the family :cuss: :banghead:

Mr White
April 5, 2007, 11:31 PM
In 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the cases where a firearm "accidentally" goes off, someone or some object touched the trigger.But this was a highly trained FBI agent, whose firearm skills tower heads above those of us mere civilians, so its obvious that this case belonged to the other .000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%.

RNB65
April 5, 2007, 11:47 PM
Anyone know if the FBI uses 5.5lb or 11lb triggers in their Glocks? The adrenaline rush that occurs in a gun fight would make the 5.5lb trigger feather light. Very easy to AD.

Tom488
April 6, 2007, 12:05 AM
Anyone know if the FBI uses 5.5lb or 11lb triggers in their Glocks?
I don't think pistols were involved here. Two different eyewitnesses report hearing a 3-round burst, and the FBI confirmed that none of the suspects' weapons had been fired. It was also reported that the FBI and State Police had been trailing this group for 2+ weeks. The group was known to have fired assault weapons during other robberies. So, knowing that they might go up against multiple criminals armed with rifles (be they of the semi-auto "assault" variety, or full-auto "really assault" variety), it's logical to think they'd be a little heavier-armed.

Of course, this is all speculation. In the end, it doesn't really matter what type of weapon did the damage. It was bad enough to hear that an FBI agent had been shot, then to hear shortly after that he had died. It was far worse to hear that he was shot by one of his own while effecting an arrest.

Neighbors and myself are paying particular attention to this, since it occurred here in our town, literally just down the street. AFAIK, the 3rd suspect is still roaming around somewhere. I hope his testicles fall off from frostbite.

Cacique500
April 6, 2007, 07:23 AM
Anyone know if the FBI uses 5.5lb or 11lb triggers in their Glocks? The adrenaline rush that occurs in a gun fight would make the 5.5lb trigger feather light. Very easy to AD.

You mean very easy to ND

El Tejon
April 6, 2007, 07:36 AM
If you observe Rule #3, then it is very hard to ND. This was intentional.

I would want to know if the deceased agent had made any complaints about the FBI. FBI "accidently" kills a lot of people.:scrutiny:

txgho1911
April 6, 2007, 07:54 AM
How many lists are you on now El T?

El Tejon
April 6, 2007, 07:58 AM
I've long been on the feds' list!:D

BTW, can you imagine the media hysteria if a CCW holder had shot an innocent during a fight?

Another aside, if none of the suspects' weapons were fired why is the FBI Agent shooting if not to kill the other agent? This stinks and smells like Murder.

Geno
April 6, 2007, 08:11 AM
They JUST caught the 3rd guy! 8:11 a.m.!!!

There simply is no such thing as a firearm discharging itself. Watch new policies calling for stiffer triggers, greater security controls to keep these evil arms out of the hands of common people. Afterall, if the FBI can't handle them, how could be common folk?

The FNC persists in saying that the "...agent was caught in the cross fire..."! What cross-fire? As I understand the perps never fired? More disinformation.

Master Blaster
April 6, 2007, 08:37 AM
I know a couple of FBI agents out of the philadelphia office, One is the father of my son's good friend and he is over my house and I am over his quite often. He is on the SWAT team in the phila office. He carries an MP5, a level IIIA vest, and his springfield custom .45 in the trunk of his agency car. The standard issue pistol he carries is a .40 cal glock with the standard trigger. He is constantly on call to put his life on the line. He is a good person, an X marine, and a very nice man and we often talk about guns and shooting.

The other FBI agent I know is retired and is the match director at my gun club, he and I shoot .22 rifles together often. The idea that an FBI agent would shoot another on purpose is ridiculous. I am surprised that the agent was killed, since they usually wear a pretty heavy duty IIIA bulletproof vest on raids. MY sympathy goes out to his family. Especially tragic since at age 52 he must have been eligible for retirement.

K3
April 6, 2007, 08:53 AM
I dunno about anyone else, but I'm curious about the 'assault weapons' the bank robeers were supposedly carrying.

Double Naught Spy
April 6, 2007, 09:20 AM
CNN says FBI Agent's Weapon Accidentally fired...On it's Own!!!

No JLStorm, CNN did not say that the agent's gun fired on its own. They said the gun accidently fired. There is nothing in the statement to indicate that they meant the gun fired on its own versus being accidently fired by the agent.

The statement is no different than when a person is reported to be killed when accidently struck by a vehicle. There is no suggestion that the vehicle was acting as Christine and operating without a driver.

JLStorm
April 6, 2007, 09:43 AM
No JLStorm, CNN did not say that the agent's gun fired on its own. They said the gun accidently fired. There is nothing in the statement to indicate that they meant the gun fired on its own versus being accidently fired by the agent.

The statement is no different than when a person is reported to be killed when accidently struck by a vehicle. There is no suggestion that the vehicle was acting as Christine and operating without a driver.


Perhaps you should re-read the news report I copied directly from CNN.com! "another agent's weapon accidentally fired" Seems pretty clear cut...the agent's weapon fired...not another agent fired his weapon....noticed how its phrased and the emphasis is put on weapon and not agent, the weapon not the agent being the subject of the sentence. :banghead:

Dr. Dickie
April 6, 2007, 09:46 AM
They said the gun accidently fired.

Sorry, but that says that the gun fired itself. If it said, "The gun was accidentally fired," that would be different.

JLStorm
April 6, 2007, 09:53 AM
Double Naught Spy....how about this...the next time you see CNN report a hit and run accident...and the story says that the "the car accidentally hit a pedestrian" without taking a single word out of context, you be sure to let us know.

ilbob
April 6, 2007, 09:54 AM
Another aside, if none of the suspects' weapons were fired why is the FBI Agent shooting if not to kill the other agent? This stinks and smells like Murder.

I am sure that after the investigation is concluded and they have a chance to coach, I mean interview, all the witnesses, that everything will become clear. Or at least a plausible story will come out. It may take a while.

OTOH, they took a few bad guys off the street. Since they were fopllowing these guys for weeks, one has to wonder why they didn't nab them in a safer manner. A bank parking lot sounds like they waited until they robbed another bank to take them down.

Travis McGee
April 6, 2007, 09:58 AM
Master Blaster:
I also know a career FBI Special Agent, and he is a total gun pro, totally pro 2nd Amd, pro-Constitution, and as fine a man as I have ever met. The FBI agents I know are "the good guys." Very good. Can't speak to their political bosses, I don't know them. But the Special Agents I've known are terrific. Are there bad ones? Must be. I don't know them.

doubleg
April 6, 2007, 09:59 AM
armed with assault weapons Here we go. :rolleyes:

kola
April 6, 2007, 11:38 AM
good thing it wasn't a machine gun.

kola

TexasRifleman
April 6, 2007, 11:48 AM
armed with assault weapons

Aren't those illegal in New Jersey already? (just asking, I am not sure).

ball3006
April 6, 2007, 12:48 PM
the government buys guns from the low bidder................chris3

Sniper X
April 6, 2007, 12:52 PM
Well, a weapon doesn't Accedentally fire by itself, and this wasn't a shootout! They keep calling it a shootout but the criminals didn;t fire a shot!

I don't know but I thought a shootout was something where BOTH sides were actually shooting.

kola
April 6, 2007, 12:58 PM
the "shootout" was one cop against another.

.,prolly over some gum-chomping waitress at the local donut shop. :fire:

Kola

alucard0822
April 6, 2007, 01:01 PM
must have been one of those new "smart guns" accidentally programmed to dirty harry mode

jessegpresley
April 6, 2007, 01:40 PM
The report says "when another agentís weapon accidentally discharged." It does not say "fired... on it's own" or "went off by itself" as other THR members are saying in this thread; even to the point of using quotations.

JLStorm, I too believe you are mistaken in your interpretation of the phrase "agent's weapon accidentally discharged". I believe it to be deliberately vague statement because it hasn't been said yet that the gun had a true AD, or the agent inadvertantly pulled the trigger.

ilbob
April 6, 2007, 04:20 PM
Master Blaster:
I also know a career FBI Special Agent, and he is a total gun pro, totally pro 2nd Amd, pro-Constitution, and as fine a man as I have ever met. The FBI agents I know are "the good guys." Very good. Can't speak to their political bosses, I don't know them. But the Special Agents I've known are terrific. Are there bad ones? Must be. I don't know them.

I have no doubt they are all great guys, and before the whitewash, I mean investigations of Ruby Ridge and Waco, I always felt the FBI was an honest and honorable organziation. The organization has since proven that is not so by its own actions.

That does not mean every individual agent is evil, or that even a majority are. I suspect most are pretty decent.

sb350hp
April 6, 2007, 04:40 PM
Yep and my car took my debit card to town yesterday an got my groceries all by itself:D

Double Naught Spy
April 6, 2007, 08:34 PM
Preliminary information suggests an FBI agent killed Thursday during a shootout with three bank-robbery suspects in New Jersey may have been fatally wounded when another agent's weapon accidentally fired, the bureau said in a statement.

Yep, nothing here says that the gun fired "on its own." It says the weapon accidentally fired. It does not say the context of the firing. It does NOT say the gun fired on its own. It doesn't say the trigger was pulled by another agent either.

The suggestion made that it fired on its own is an interpretation of the statement and not actually information from the statement. Given that the information came from the FBI as part of a press release on the incident, I don't doubt that it was specifically worded to be vague on the key concept of how the gun came to discharge.

So then add to that then that CNN didn't actually say this as much as they reported what the FBI said.

C96
April 6, 2007, 08:58 PM
My prayers and condolences to Officer Bush's wife and children. Thanks for doing a very difficult job.

allan

obxned
April 6, 2007, 09:01 PM
So how did some wondering evil finger get inside the trigger guard and fire the weapon???

Should we now start registering fingers. If the government chooses to do this, I would like to be the first to give them the finger!

Binkster
April 6, 2007, 09:23 PM
This article was taken from the website of the local paper. It seems he was shot with a rifle (none specified) in the arm pit as he was exiting his vehicle. This is only speculation on my part but it seems to me that he jumped out of his vehicle into the line of fire of the shooter. The shooter had a case of tunnel vision.



Local FBI agent first to die on duty since 9-11
Barry Lee Bush started his career in Berks County
The Morning Call
The bullet that killed a veteran FBI agent from Forks Township during a bank robbery investigation hit him in the armpit, where he was not covered by his bulletproof vest, according to published reports.

Barry Lee Bush, 52, was in a car that tried to block a suspect outside a PNC bank in central New Jersey when a van full of officers pulled up next to the suspect's car, the New York Daily News states.

One of the agents accidentally fired his rifle as he leaped out of the van and the bullet struck Bush's car, then clipped Bush, the newspaper states.

He is the first FBI agent killed in the line of duty since Sept. 11, 2001, the New York Daily News states.

State police captured a third bank robbery suspect this morning a few miles from the bank, two other robbery suspects were captured shortly after the shooting yesterday.

The Pottstown Mercury reports that Bush started his career in Berks County. He, was a Boyertown police officer, then a Pottstown police officer in the 1980s, the newspaper states.

In 1981, while Bush was a patrol officer in Boyertown, he received the Boyertown Jaycees Young Police Officer of the Year Award, according to the Mercury.

The newspaper doesn't say when Bush joined the Pottstown Police Department in Montgomery County, but it says he left in 1987 to join the FBI.

Bush was a 1972 graduate of Pottstown High School.

TexasRifleman
April 6, 2007, 09:55 PM
The report says "when another agentís weapon accidentally discharged." It does not say "fired... on it's own" or "went off by itself" as other THR members are saying in this thread; even to the point of using quotations.

Actually it DID say that, then the original was pulled and re-edited.

There is another thread somewhere with the original and new copy.

Apparantly someone noticed and the change was made, but it absolutely said it they way it's been quoted here.

pablo45
April 7, 2007, 12:58 AM
That has to be the worst. Seeing one of your own go down like that.

ptmmatssc
April 7, 2007, 12:32 PM
Officials investigating the shooting death of an FBI agent outside a Readington bank Thursday are trying to determine if a bureau SWAT team member shot his fellow agent after mistaking him for a member of an alleged robbery crew, a law enforcement official said last night.
Special Agent Barry Lee Bush was killed when he and a heavily armed FBI weapons and tactics team converged from separate directions on a car carrying a suspected bank robber across from the PNC branch along Route 22. A vehicle carrying the SWAT team rammed into the suspect's car, and agents tossed flash grenades out onto the parking lot, according to two other law enforcement sources.
Agents, who had been monitoring the suspects for weeks, had also been looking for a second car, a black one, carrying other crew members. A SWAT officer might have mistakenly shot Bush after seeing the agent emerge alone in the smoke from his black, bureau-issued sedan, one source said.




So the gun didn't "accidentally " go off . Hmm , know your target?


Even though the FBI said the suspects never fired a weapon on Thursday, the three were carrying plenty of ammunition: a .380 handgun, an SKS assault rifle, and an AK-47 assault rifle, all loaded and in plain view in one of their cars, authorities said.

So they had full auto rifles? I was unaware that they made SKSs in full auto. Aren't "assault rifles" select fire/full auto/burst vs "assault weapons' being semi auto look alikes ?

Asked whether any of the suspects could be held accountable for Bush's death, despite the fact he was shot by a fellow agent, Ruiz said: "We're considering that right now. We're talking to the United States Attorney."


Like I said before , they'll probably charge these guys even though it was freindly fire.


http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-11/1175922058253010.xml&coll=1


I'm still trying to figure out WHY shots were fired to begin with since the suspects never fired once .

VegasEgo
April 7, 2007, 12:34 PM
a lady at my work said that the government should issue Batons and thats it to police officers and government agencies, because of this. next they are just gonna say let them throw rocks, mayeb they can hit one in the head....:what:

Jersey Devil
April 8, 2007, 04:44 AM
Reporters write. They don't know much about the controversies over 'by itself' or accidental. I don't doubt it was surey an accident.

Here in NJ a few towns are trying to put 'full auto' guns in the police cars. Now, that scares me.

Meanwhile, you read about cops killing their wives, suicides, car wrecks w/cops killing inocents. False arrests, etc. It's getting scary.

gaucho1
April 8, 2007, 05:24 AM
Attention all second guessing internet commandos.

You have NEVER put your ass on the line to protect
someone else.

You have never been in a REAL combat situation.

Nobody feels worse than the agent that shot his teammate.

Friendly fire incidents occur in the real world.

Grow up and man up.

All sympathy to the agents and their families.
Gratitude to those who do an apparently thankless job.

gak
April 8, 2007, 07:05 AM
gaucho1>"Attention all second guessing internet commandos.You have NEVER put your ass on the line to protect someone else. You have never been in a REAL combat situation. Nobody feels worse than the agent that shot his teammate. Friendly fire incidents occur in the real world. Grow up and man up. All sympathy to the agents and their families. Gratitude to those who do an apparently thankless job."
---
On the whole I don't believe most are condemning the shooter, they're bitter that when accidents -do- happen, even when people have the best intentions, there is a different set of punishments/liability for L.E. compared to non-L.E.

Double-standards are what people don't like. Maybe experiences with pompous attitude when dealing with L.E. in the past is another. When I see people bragging how safe and awesome they are, it's always funnier when they drop the brick on their foot. When police browbeat hunters and recreational shooters up here for being potentially unsafe, it's fun to watch the taxpayer-funded spin doctors kick into high gear when there is a L.E. firearms accident.

"It was the gun firing on its own ! It was the weather ! Emotions were high ! She's a model officer with the best intentions ! The investigation will continue behind closed doors !"

>>compared to civilian accidents>>

"Charges were laid. Taxpayer-funded gun-grabber groups and the press are up in arms. New laws favouring gun bans are in the works."

Texfire
April 8, 2007, 07:54 AM
My opinion, your mileage may vary.

Please have respect for the agent who is almost certainly having a crisis of doubt and conscience after shooting a fellow agent. The benefit of the doubt should be offered this person, after all we weren't there.

We also have no idea what their opinions on civilian gun ownership are. Until we have a video of them claiming that, "they are the only one professional enough to carry this gun", they deserve our restraint and a lack of derision if not expressed support. The double standard that has so many of us up in arms is not the fault of this agent, and shouldn't be laid at their feet.

Finally the wording used in articles by reporters are generally paraphrases at best, suppositions at worse, and not useful for conclusions unless a directly attributable quote.

Tex

Frandy
April 8, 2007, 07:59 AM
The problem is that the news report statement is in the passive rather than the active voice. We editors caution writers about when the passive voice can be used effectively and when it is inappropriate.

Passive voice: "...when another agent's weapon accidentally fired."

Active voice: "when another agent accidently fired his weapon."

The passive is less direct and less precise. However, the habitual, overuse of the active voice in writing can lead to "forcible" writing. Transitions from the active to the passive can enliven writing, especially in the narrative form.

That said, no doubt in my mind (passive, by the way), if I had been the editor of this article, I would have the writer use the active voice in that statement.

As to whether the agent fired accidently or purposely is an entirely different matter.

ptmmatssc
April 8, 2007, 08:58 AM
Attention all second guessing internet commandos.

You have NEVER put your ass on the line to protect
someone else.

You have never been in a REAL combat situation.:barf:

Hmmm , guess my military service doesn't count . Glad you could lump everyone here that might question this shoot into one category of your choosing.


Friendly fire incidents occur in the real world.

Grow up and man up.

And why is that? If I , as a citizen now , shoots someone "accidentally" , I will be charged and hung out to dry . But , since these are "highly trained" officers , it's just a case of friendly fire , oops? Btw , what was the "combat situation" they were in? Were those not the only shots fired?

This officer will have to deal with his own demons on this and I feel bad for the families involved . I wouldn't wish this on anyone , but what happened and why needs to be looked at and if mistakes were made , then they should be addressed without any 'favoritism" because of his/their positions.

I agree with gak . Someone f**cked up and now it's in spin and protect mode .

gaucho1
April 8, 2007, 03:24 PM
Please note

My post is addressed to all second guessing internet commandos.

If you are not in that catagory,please discern what portion of the post
does not apply to you and ignore.

If the shoe fits,please let the entire post speak directly to you.

Arrogance and disrespectful ignorant attitudes by ANYONE towards
ANYONE reflect a lack of intelligence and insecurity. Position or
former position does not makes me or ANYONE immune from being stupid now.

Governmental and beureaucratic ass covering is pervasive.To criticize the
agents based on the CNN verbage is shallow and reveals a preset
attitude.

Sorry for the harsh post,but this one pissed me of.Please check your feet
before feeling offended.

El Tejon
April 8, 2007, 03:37 PM
It is not second guessing to point out that this kill stinks!

If a private citizen shot an innocent there would be a hue and cry from law enforcement that would knock down brick walls. It is time to raise the same hue and cry against this federal agent, the FBI Shooter.

This was no accident. The FBI Shooter meant to discharge the round. A round does not accidently hit a man in through the arm pit. The FBI Shooter was deliberately aiming his weapon. (Question: if the FBI Shooter claims he did not know it was Bush, a body armour-wearing federal agent, then why shoot him in a area that body armour does not cover? My money is on the FBI Shooter knowing exactly what he was doing).

If this was not a Murder (I will wait to see what is in the background of Bush and the FBI Shooter to see if this wasn't just an opportune time to knock Bush off as the FBI has done before with troublemakers), then the FBI Shooter should be prosecuted for Reckless Homicide and Criminal Recklessness with a Deadly Weapon. Not knowing what you are attempting to destroy is recklessness per se.

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