Poor Manufactoring, its not just Saturday Night Specials anymore.....


April 5, 2007, 10:57 PM
Is it just me, but I've seen WAY TOO MANY post that start out like "My ADD ANY WEAPON MAKE AND MODEL broke after only a few rounds and I can't seem to get it working even after four trip back to the factory!" I've started noticing this about a year ago on several different sites and it seems that noone is left out. Now I know with the internet, information is avaible instantly and worldwide. But I'm also noticing it locally also. One gunshop owner, when asked my a newbie about a good pistol, said pick one out its a crap shoot!

Is it that quality control is leftup to computers or factories trying to put out a new model, from R&D to production, too quickly?

Its getting to the point that I only looked at used guns from the 80-90s. I don't care if its a Colt, S&W, Springer, Taurus, or even longguns. I'll take an onlder one over a new one anyday! I take EVERY gun as an "individual".


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April 6, 2007, 06:53 AM
I think its simply the fact that a more vocal, disgruntled person is more likely to complain (post negative experiences), than a satisfied person is to post positives.

Personally, I've been buying guns for 36 years (although not as many as I would like) and I haven't gotten a lemon yet. I also don't think that the quality (based on ADJUSTED cost: then vs. now) has changed all that much.

April 6, 2007, 12:22 PM
My only lemons have been 1911's I finally got one that works and am keeping it. I started with a High Point 45 that never jammed, and after a few shots i could consistantly hit paper at 100 yards by lobbing them. No bullseyes but cool none the less.

April 6, 2007, 12:27 PM
I think its simply the fact that a more vocal, disgruntled person is more likely to complain (post negative experiences), than a satisfied person is to post positives.

There was a study that showed someone who had a bad experience will share that experience with 10 people where someone who had a good experienced shared it with 3 people.

El Tejon
April 6, 2007, 12:37 PM
22, I hate to break (intentional pun) it to you, all guns break. I have broken old guns, used guns, hierloom guns, gift guns. I have broken guns that have never been fired! Yes, it's true I can use my mind to destroy guns, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=251038.

If you shoot a bunch and are around guns, they will all break. Buy more!:)

4 copies of the guns you like, 1 to use, 1 in reserve, 1 hidden off your property, 1 at the gunsmith.

April 6, 2007, 12:44 PM
Internet wasn't around in the 80s-90s. You hear less whining. Also I bet the volume of sales has gone up since then and there are just more of both good and bad guns out there.

April 6, 2007, 03:21 PM
The only NEW guns I buy are Rugers and Marlins. My Colt revolvers were made between 1930 and 1967. My S&W's are all pre-lock. I DO have a Springfield 1911A1 that I bought new, but that was an anomaly and won't happen again.

April 6, 2007, 03:50 PM
In marketing they teach that a satisfied customer will tell maybe 1 or 2 people, while an unsatisfied customer will tell everyone he knows. Now thanks to Al Gore's internets, they can tell the world without leaving the comfort of their lazy-boy (which they got ripped off on by the way, the salesman wouldn't honor their coupon and they'd never shop there again and blah blah blah)

April 6, 2007, 04:13 PM
I would say that overall quality has improved. CAD systems, MIM, CNC machining and the like have given us better materials to build from. What may be lacking in quality control is the sheer volume of weapons produced. It is the difference between catching an error in 1 in a 100 verses 1 in a 1000.

That is where the customs (Les Baer, Wilsons etc) get such fantastic reputations. Not nearly as many are produced!

If you compared by # of weapons sold I am willing to bet that Taurus w/ all the negative comments has a better satisfaction rating than say Kimber :eek: soley bases on # of weapons sold vs. complaints.

El Tejon
April 6, 2007, 04:16 PM
No problems with Les Baers???:uhoh: :confused:

Well, then there's the Badger and his Les Baers, http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=90067&page=2

April 6, 2007, 06:16 PM
I posted this a few days ago on a regional forum :

" Okay , let me tell you about MY 220st.

Bought used for 750. After a few weekends if shooting factory ammo it began to FTE , leaving the spent case in chamber and unseating the next round in mag.

Cleaned it to a gleam , same prob. Spent hours on the 'net and decided it ws mags. Bought 2 new Sig mags @ $38 each. Ouch. Same problem.

Sent it to Sig. Returned with letter saying gun was fine. Got lecture on limp wristing tp boot.

Brought it Plate shoot @ DF&G , where some real gun enthusiasts got a look at it : " Extractor prob for sure. lemme call my friend at Sig , Jeff."

Jeff is a stand up guy. He came to my range the next week , replaced extractor , gave me a Sigarms cap , an sincere apology , a few boxes of reloads , and an hour of coaching on speed shooting.

2 weeks later it started again - FTE.

I shelved the gun to wait for the steam ikn my head to clear. Sent it back to Sig. Same letter. " This gun is fine. "

Talked to Carl. " I have a hex or a lemon. I want to sell it back to you , I realize I will lose a large portion of my money. I'd rather have a beater 1911 than a prestigious "to hell & back reliability" " most accurate out of the box " Sig that breaks every 200 rounds. ... but first I needed to fix it again.

A few weeks later I drove the thing to Sigarms , re-explained the problem and they actually did some work on it this time. A few dremel marks , a few " retensioned the slide" comments etc. and it finally ran well.

3 weeks later the hook of the extractor broke clean off while shooting pairs.

All of this was factory new ammo.

Mailed to Brownells to replace the extractor myself. They sent me the wrong one. .... grrrrrr.

I have a job. I get to shoot one day a week. I no longer trust Sig repair service at all period. Every step in this ordeal is at least wait until next week or longer before schedule allows me to do anything about it. Very frustrated.

That said .. I have an old worn , scratched and dinged SigSauer p228 made in West Germany with uncountable rounds through it. Never once hiccuped.

April 6, 2007, 07:01 PM
The problem is no quality control and relying on warranty to cover the defects.

Hence the problem some of the large old manufactures cannot fix their own guns. Remington is one at this time. We will not stock any Remington shotguns in our shop anymore. Clients that want one will sign a statement to the fact we are not responsible for Remington’s defects and they musty deal with Remington Themselves before we will even order one. They are that bad at this time. Dealing with their customer service is useless as nice as the rep's are the gunsmithing seems to be done by angry beavers.

Berretta used to have the worst customer service but at this time they make Remington look like amateurs.

April 6, 2007, 07:06 PM
double tap

April 6, 2007, 07:08 PM
Part of the rise is probably due to the decline of hand-fitting. Hand-fitting requires constant testing, and thus problems get weeded out on the production line.

With all of the "drop in" CNC parts and such a gun is only getting tested a few times at the at the very end of manufacture (if at all), and thus problems that aren't externally obvious get passed on to the consumer. Even though the quality of the indiviual parts may have improved there is less obsevation of how they are interacting in the gun as a whole.

April 6, 2007, 07:09 PM
its the way just about everything is.stuff made 50 years ago was alot higher quality than stuff is made now. The price doesnt reflect that, companies still want to charge a premium when they took a large number of cost cutting measures.nothing is built to last, everything is made to be disposable because companies make more money if they sell something that doesnt last and needs to be replaced constantly. as far as brand names, you never really know what youre buying. anyone could make it including 7 yr olds in thailand. the brand name gets sold not the product.

Remington is one at this time
remington just got bought out

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