Gunshop tactical gurus and brand bashing


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Bezoar
April 6, 2007, 01:22 AM
I have been thinking on these two topics real well lately as I dont have much to do these days. And here are my supposition.

We all know that each manufacturer of handguns has bad gusn go out the door, cant be denied or hidden. Some brands merely have more issues then others, but are still worthwhile firearms.
But we also see the tactical gun store guru who likes to spout myth and lies off as fact, benefits from brand bashing.

Why does the "tactical gunstore guru" get help from gun bashing? Lets have an example that happens more then we like.

Guru: How can i help you sir?
customer: Well Im thinking about buying a nice low priced handgun, say a
lorcin or a hi-point, maybe a Kel-tec in 9mm for ccw.
Guru: Are you an idiot sir? are you trying to commit suicide by purchasing a
piece of crap like that?
Cust: But I just read some good reviews on those brands in "insert fav gun
rag" and saw that the hi-point/kel-tec/lorcin are good for the job and
the money.
Guru: Sir/mamm, I cant honestly sell you such a low priced peice of crap
because that round 9mm/380/32 is such a worthless self defense round
Cust: but the gun magazines ....
Guru: *pulling out his favorite gun rags*, well the authors in this magazine
dont get free guns form the makers or kick backs (even though they
do get kickbacks and free guns)
Cust: oh ok, ill quick look at those articles in your magazines
Guru: i can tell ya now you need at least a 45 for self defense, but if you
dont want stopping power ill sell this plastic crap in 9mm/32/380 to ya.
cust: *after reading articles saying 45 is minimum caliber* well i guess your
right on caliber, so i guess your right on not using that plastic crap, so
what can you recommend?
guru: well lets see, i have this really spiffy looking Kinber in stainless steel
for only 1200..........


Just an example but it does happen. But just who else has made this correlation of bad gun myth and brand bashing to help the gunstore guru sell high priced guns to people who want low price?

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sierrabravo45
April 6, 2007, 01:43 AM
I agree with the gun guru.

High Points are POS.

PotatoJudge
April 6, 2007, 01:55 AM
As with any important purchase, research before hand and/or take someone who knows what they're doing.

The gunshop guru has come up quite a bit recently, they're entertaining or infuriating depending on your perspective.

And the newer Kel-tecs are supposed to be reliable and durable.

Glockfan.45
April 6, 2007, 02:10 AM
:scrutiny: Lorcin.........Your joking right? Sorry but there is no excuse for a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, Davis ect. Save a few extra bucks and splurge on a High Point at least. Not all low cost guns are bad but the three I listed belong at the bottom of a garbage can. Other than that i get your point.

ArfinGreebly
April 6, 2007, 02:33 AM
There is a gun shoppe in our area (Reno) that simply will not carry certain brands or certain types of certain brands.

Their policy is that if a brand gives them more than a certain amount of trouble, they just quit carrying it altogether, rather than "advising" against it.

For example, they will simply not sell a Taurus auto pistol. They will sell their revolvers, however. Same for Ruger. The Taurus autos they won't carry because of reliability issues and problems with support. Ruger autos are shunned because customers kept complaining about accuracy.

Likewise, Kel-tec autos simply aren't there.

Various specific models (certain revolvers, certain auto calibres) of certain brands are also missing.

They're pretty unapologetic about it.

Their policy: "If we stock it, it's because we're willing to stand behind the guarantee ourselves; if the factory fails to fix it, we'll make it right."

I bought my XD40 there, also a used Ruger MkII, a CX4 Storm in 9mm, and a 336C in .30-30 (blue/walnut).

I can't buy a Taurus PT1911 there, nor could I have bought my wife's PT111 from them, and (hardly surprising) they don't have Hi Point either.

They're decent folk, but they don't suffer fools gladly, and they tend to run a "hard sell" shop. They've taken the trouble to show me the take-down and clean/lube procedure of everything I've bought there.

I'm doing more shopping at a friendlier store, but I know that if I buy something from the "brusque" guys that it will be a solid buy.

So far I've been fortunate with not running into the "what you REALLY need . . ." crowd.

BHPshooter
April 6, 2007, 05:05 AM
Well, to be perfectly honest, the Hi Point is pretty much crap. We carry them, and although a lot of them run fine, too many of them come back with problems. They are hot sellers :uhoh: :barf: and it should be pointed out that they actually have a stand-up factory warranty behind them. Of course, I view traits like brick-like physique and top-heavy nature as problems themselves, but I digress.

You can get a solid, reliable defensive handgun for not much more than it costs to get a Hi Point. Makarovs can be had for very reasonable prices, as well as the newer Taurus Millenium Pros. Used guns, especially Glocks and Ruger autos, can be had for great prices. We sell used Rugers in the $250 range.

Wes

distra
April 6, 2007, 08:40 AM
He was right about the .45ACP :neener:

Dr. Dickie
April 6, 2007, 08:59 AM
Salesmen are salesmen, that is often all it is. They are pushing iron like every used car salesmen in America.
Sure some of the younger ones actually believe what they say, but over time they learn the truth, or they learn what life is like alone. With age, CAN come wisdom, it all depends on how you live your life.

logical
April 6, 2007, 09:25 AM
Take out the word "gun" and insert "tires", TV's", "repacement windows", "almost anything".....the story is the same. It's expensive to go through life un-informed. Gun shops didn't invent stupidity but they have raised it to an art form.

P0832177
April 6, 2007, 09:55 AM
The other part of the equation is that I would bet that upwards of 80 maybe even a high percentage of gun owners are just that, gun owners. They are not shooters. I know this has foundation. So many people just own guns, and they are complacent in that they have "the gun". Now, as ammo prices have risen like the thermometer in the AZ desert on a summer day I bet that is even more true. Look at 9mm WWB at Wally world was running 100 perK now 150 per K, and 45ACP was 200 per K, now 270 per K. More and more people are getting in to reloading as evidenced by the # number of noob posts. So, the purchaser looking at low end guns is just not looking for something to take the range, but rather to own....

What was it that Jeff Cooper said about the Star PD? A gun to be carried a lot and shot very little.......

Double Naught Spy
April 6, 2007, 10:13 AM
I also agree with the gun guru as a general rule. My experience has been that the price of the gun does not determine reliability, but it does seem to be a percentage game. That game is basically that high end expensive guns have a much greater likelihood of being consistently proper functioning guns than low end cheapo guns. Sure, some Kel Tecs, Lorcins, Hi Points do work very well. A buddy of mine has a Bersa Thunder .380 that seems to be an outstanding lower end inexpensive gun. Of the several I have seen of that model, however, it is the only one that seems to work well, however.

Just an example but it does happen. But just who else has made this correlation of bad gun myth and brand bashing to help the gunstore guru sell high priced guns to people who want low price?

Actually, it bothers me more that gun stores will sell low end guns to people who don't want to shell out the $ for a quality gun to protect themselves and their loved ones and the gun store folks will promote the low end guns as being sufficient for the task of self defense. For example, how many folks buy Kel-Tecs for self defense, believing they are a good self defense gun, but without ever knowing that a tremendous number of Kel Tecs need to be fluffed and buffed by the purchaser before they are likely to be reliable? How many are aware that Kel Tec has a great service reputation because so many people have to send in their new guns for service?

I am impressed with the gun store folks who ask the appropriate questions of the customer in hopes of finding a proper match between the customer, the customer's needs, and the gun. As I overheard one clerk say, "I will gladly sell you any of these guns, but that doesn't mean they will be appropriate for what you have in mind." The customer had come to the decision that a Calico pistol with a 50 round rotary magazine was going to be a good home defense gun.

entropy
April 6, 2007, 11:43 AM
A lot of this is personal perception on the part of the counter guy, or more to the point usually the owner. I've been on both sides of the counter, and currently work (part-time) in a shop that generally doesn't carry the types of firearms I personally like. They, fer instance, don't sell Kimbers, (Too many went back to the factory, supposedly) yet I've shot a few, and the reliability has been 100%. As mentioned, not many Taurus autos go out the doors, but at another shop I worked at, we never had to use the lifetime gaurantee they have. Go figure. This shop caters to the high-buck Browning and Beretta shotgunners, and the bias against other types of guns shows. (BTW, I have nothing aganist Browning and Beretta shotguns. I like them. A lot. Please contribute to my "Buy entropy a Urika" fund c/o THR....) ;)
I find the truest opinion of a gun will be from a friend who owns one, and usually, they will let you try theirs!:D I've bought more than one gun this way. Matter of fact, White Horseradish....we need to talk. :)

Innova
April 6, 2007, 12:01 PM
Save a few extra bucks and splurge on a High Point at least.

:)
This made me smile.

Sniper X
April 6, 2007, 12:14 PM
I have a love hate deal with gun shop "gurus". I find it interesting in sometimes a bad way that when I go into a place like Sportsmans Warehouse and go to the gun counter to look at something, a just over 21 year old kid, or even a guy in his 30s talks to me like I know nothing about guns because he has a different opinion about what gun is "best". Or just the look you get at the counter from the employees sometimes. I have been shooting since 1968, and have been into competition for years at the club level, and have been a firearms instructor and done firearms training videos for my company, and for gunsite training Center for years. So I do actually know a bit about guns!

But a guy with my kowledge and background can walk into a gun shop and the 23 year old behind the counter can treat me like a noob!

I also love the fact that whatever "they" have behind the counter is better than what you have or what you wnat that they don't have!

kola
April 6, 2007, 12:18 PM
whats a noob?

Kola;)

Dr. Dickie
April 6, 2007, 12:30 PM
A newbie. Someone who is "new" to something. Someone with limited experience or knowledge of some subject.
Noob is a computerese.

Big Calhoun
April 6, 2007, 12:34 PM
I think one of the things I learned from lurking on the boards was to do and trust my own research first. Really, this is something I practice with all big ticket purchases; computers, cars, appliances, electronics, etc. I mean, a business is a business and they do what they do to stay in business. Besides, nobody is going to take of me better than, me.

Ala Dan
April 6, 2007, 02:54 PM
I also agree with the "gun guru", as related to High Points, Lorcins, Brycos,
Ravens, Jennings, etc. My favorite saying to the customer is, "Man you
ought to throw that gun in the nearest creek, and get yourself a real
gun"~! ;) :D

bass806
April 6, 2007, 03:17 PM
Their loss for not selling Keltecs. I have a P11 that is becoming one of my favorite CCWs. I have not had one problem with it.

cmidkiff
April 6, 2007, 03:42 PM
Threads like this one really make me appreciate my local gun store. A gun dealer that isn't afraid to say 'I don't know, but I'll find out...' in response to a question seems to be rare as hen's teeth.

Drop by Moore Outdoors (http://www.mooreoutdoors.biz) if you're ever in Smithville, MO.

obxned
April 6, 2007, 03:51 PM
I've never owned or shot a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, or Davis. I have shot HiPoints. They go bang everytime and hit what they are aimed at. Bad-mouthing these cheapo guns is about the same as a car salesman telling you that if you can't afford a Mercedes, then you should just get used to walking.

cheygriz
April 6, 2007, 04:01 PM
There is a gun shoppe in our area (Reno) that simply will not carry certain brands or certain types of certain brands.

I respect a business that has enough integrity to refuse to sell what they consider junk.

I've never owned or shot a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, or Davis. I have shot HiPoints. They go bang everytime and hit what they are aimed at. Bad-mouthing these cheapo guns is about the same as a car salesman telling you that if you can't afford a Mercedes, then you should just get used to walking.

You'r right. They shouldn't bad-mouth a brand. If they consider it junk, they should just refuse to sell it. If I worked in a gun store, and I sold a piece of krap to someone and he, or one of his loved ones got killed because this "piece of krap" didn't work, I'd have trouble living with myself. I'd rsther just refuse to sell it.

Taurus92 in KyleTX
April 6, 2007, 04:14 PM
My favorite gunstore guru tidbit is that I was window shopping for a hi point carbine, and called a local gunstore to see if they had one (or would order one).

He said something to the effect of, "I don't sell that gangbanger crap." (All I really recall was his distasteful tone and the reference to gangbangers.)

The ironic rest of the story... when trying to find a website for the store, a Google search yielded numerous hits on an AP article citing the shop (and the owner) as the supplier to a guy who was illegally reselling them to people that couldn't pass the background check.

Granted, the owner can't be responsible for what some punk (that can pass the background check) does after the purchase. But, c'mon, drop the high and mighty when you've got _firsthand experience_ with even the "respectable" stuff making it into criminal hands.

(And, no, I never got the carbine... bought a "respectable" SKS instead. And now, a year later, I just got my AR. :D )

Glockfan.45
April 6, 2007, 06:41 PM
I've never owned or shot a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, or Davis. I have shot HiPoints. They go bang everytime and hit what they are aimed at. Bad-mouthing these cheapo guns is about the same as a car salesman telling you that if you can't afford a Mercedes, then you should just get used to walking.


The problem is Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, Davis, and Bryco do not go bang every time you pull the trigger. I try not to be a gun snob, but I will call a junk gun a junk gun when the shoe fits. The brands I listed are not good for anything other than selling to buy back programs for a profit.

tinygnat219
April 6, 2007, 07:23 PM
Glockfan.45,

Lorcin.........Your joking right? Sorry but there is no excuse for a Lorcin, Jennings, Raven, Davis ect. Save a few extra bucks and splurge on a High Point at least.

I like your "Splurge on a Hi-Point" comment. Made my afternoon.

fattsgalore
April 6, 2007, 07:25 PM
To be honest I wouldn't trust any of the guns you mentioned either.
But saying 45 is the only real man stopper or this or that gun is crap is just biases B.S. One through the forehead with anything and you know their stopping.

You'll notice they'll say that about guns that are either low end or they don't carry and the one's they do are like gold.
My buddy went to a gun safety class and the Guru asked what was his weapon of choice. He said Taurus PT92 9mm 17+1 in which the Guru said "I won't say anything" meaning disdain for said gun or brand. Then went on to praise S&W; Sig; and Hk. Which coincedently the store was full of.

I stopped trusting so called experts long ago along with mechanics and doctors. They normally just guess till their right.

Off subject. The Taurus PT92 is one of the finest pistols I've had the privilege to handle for someone to bad mouth tells me off the back they've never shot it and are talking out their wo-hoo.

redneck2
April 6, 2007, 07:29 PM
Yeah, well, work behind the counter for a while. There are just as many idiots and fools on each side of the counter.

I've worked sales for over 30 years. I thought I'd heard every stupid question and comment possible, then I started part time at a gun shop. Took it to a whole new level.

Sigdude
April 6, 2007, 08:21 PM
Before i bought my Sig P220st last month i was at the same store looking at the Ruger P345 and the Taurus's 24/7 and PT145.The first salesman told me that Taurus Auto.s were junk.The second salesman told me that the controls configuration on the Ruger P345 were " Self Defeating " and i would end-up dead if i were in a fast shoot-out.

When i finally " bit-the-bullet " and shelled-out $740 hard-earned bucks for my pet Siggie,the third salesman said that Rugers were not only " Junky ",but that they were also " Clunky ".

So i've also been wondering for the past month.....
" Why the f:cuss:k are these guys EVEN stocking these guns for in-the-first-place ! :banghead:

Double Naught Spy
April 6, 2007, 09:12 PM
Why do they even stock the crap,if they know it's crap ?

Simple. Not everyone wants a quality gun or wants to spend very much money on guns. People assume a gun is going to function like other new items and always work well right out of the box, like a toaster.

You are missing a profitable market if you are not selling low end guns and that market of profit may be what is the difference in having a gun store that survives versus having an ideal that does not.

possum
April 6, 2007, 11:50 PM
+1 for what glockfan.45 said, save a little, if i was the guy selling the guns for one i wouldn't have them for sale, if i don'ttrust my life with them then i sure as heck ain't gonna sell them to someone else. but i would be alot more humble about it. i would suggest other makes and models, but if that is what the customer wants then they will probally get it some where else.

tmajors
April 7, 2007, 12:10 AM
I make it a point to not listen to anyone that gets paid for selling product. Doesn't matter what the product is. Why? Because they push stuff they are overstocked on, has a higher profit margin, or they get spiffs (per sale added commissions) on.

You think stores put stuff on "sale" to be nice? No they got a really good buy on a few pallets of the crap and even at the "sale" price they get a higher profit margin then they were getting before. The "sale" just makes sure they sell more of them then they normally do.

Make your decisions of what you want or are going to buy outside the store, do your own research, or even talk to other people that already own the products you are looking for. Definitely don't talk to the people selling the product.

A gun example, I walked into my local store and said something like "I want a good, reliable 9mm pistol but I don't want to spend a bundle on a named brand". Guy immediately pulls out a Glock and says "best gun you can get!".

Few weeks later I go into the same store and talk to the same guy. "Let me see that CZ down there." He pulls it out. "So what do you think of the CZ hand guns?"....."Best gun you can get!". "$150 less then the Glock too I see".

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