The new Armalite CZ clone


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cold dead hands
April 7, 2007, 07:39 AM
Has anybody come to the conclusion that this an over priced CZ clone from Turkey?

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varoadking
April 7, 2007, 08:54 AM
I haven't handled one, so I really can't come to any conclusion...

Richard
April 7, 2007, 10:37 AM
Are the Armalite CZ clones over priced for clones? Yes, on the other hand Turkish firearms seem to be very well made and enjoy a good reputation. I would try one if I found it used. Regards, Richard:D

armoredman
April 7, 2007, 10:43 AM
Tanfoglio of Italy originally listed Sarsilmaz of Turkey as a distributor of thier CZ clones, which are imported into the US as the Witness. I would be unsuprised to find the Armalite, which is a Turkish import, has its origins in Italy.
Turkey does have a booming firearms industry, and I do hear decent things about them.

Dobe
April 7, 2007, 11:05 AM
I believe Kimber is importing a SXS from Turkey.

I handled the Armalite last week. I want one. My biggest reservation is that CZ mags will not work in the Armalite. This is the only thing I don't like about it.

Grayrider
April 7, 2007, 12:12 PM
Old style 16 round Tanfoglio mags should work fine. They do in mine, although given that it was the first gun they sold I have shot it little. More of a collectors piece to me, and a thank you from ArmaLite for helping.

Wait until you guys see the 45! I got some exclusive pictures from Mark Westrom last week, but had to promise to keep them to myself. It has come along way from the original shots I released last year, and will be a hot seller if priced right.

:D

John

Dobe
April 7, 2007, 12:49 PM
Out of curiosity, why would Armalite have a CZ type manufactured and not standardize on an easily obtained magazine? That would have been a great selling point.

Dobe
April 8, 2007, 10:11 AM
Still wondering

Grayrider
April 8, 2007, 11:29 AM
I cannot speak for ArmaLite, but would venture that the 16 round Witness/Baby Eagle magazines are about as plentiful as CZ-75 magazines. I think Mec-gar is still making them given that EAA only changed to 18 shot large frame magazines for 9mm a couple years ago. However, I did tell them originally to make sure the gun took 75 magazines as the long term availability will be better given Tanfoglio dropped the 16 shot mags. I don't know why they did not go with my suggestion. Probably easier to leave the gun the way it was.

John

Dobe
April 8, 2007, 11:49 AM
That's too bad. That is the one reason I would not buy one. Other than that, its a great looking handgun, and its forged constructions is a plus.

Richard
April 8, 2007, 11:53 AM
Dobe, I am sure that Tanfoglio and Armalite sell more firearms outside of the USA than they do in the USA.

tinygnat219
April 8, 2007, 11:54 AM
The Turks make good guns. However, it's an overpriced CZ clone. Stay with the CZ.

Dobe
April 8, 2007, 11:58 AM
I have a CZ.. I believe the fit and finish is better on the Turk model, and I personally like the forged frame and slide. I'm willing to pay a little more for that. I don't like the idea that the clone will not take the "standard" mag.

The idea of original means nothing to me. That is why I have no loyalty to Colt when buying 1911's. I seek the best made within my buying power.

Dobe
April 8, 2007, 02:11 PM
Dobe, I am sure that Tanfoglio and Armalite sell more firearms outside of the USA than they do in the USA.

Richard,
What does this mean in the context of what I wrote. I'm afraid I sincerely don't understand.

1 old 0311
April 8, 2007, 03:18 PM
My CZ's don't lack anything. Why pay more and maybe get less? Yes I like clones, if they are priced right. Not priced MORE.

rbernie
April 8, 2007, 04:34 PM
I handled an AR24K (compact steel frame) in the store on Friday. I like Armalite products in general, and really do admire the company for bringing in this pistol. However, you won't find me plunking down any cash for this thing.

It's ugly. The one I handled had a badbadbad trigger in both DA and SA mode. The slide-to-frame fit was sloppy and overall the pistol lacked the solid feel of a CZ. It was no less expensive than a CZ. The trigger pull was mushy, long, very heavy, and had more lateral play in the works than should ever have been allowed to ship. The finish was poor. The controls were sloppy. Oh, and did I mention that it had a really bad trigger?

Ugh.

I remain perplexed as to why anyone would want one when the real McCoy is freely available and far better made.

Dobe
April 8, 2007, 06:09 PM
Wow, those that I have seen (and not shot admittidly) were just the opposite. They looked great, and the slide fit was tight.

RNB65
April 8, 2007, 06:13 PM
Just buy a CZ and ignore the rip offs.

Richard
April 8, 2007, 06:26 PM
“…why would Armalite have a CZ type manufactured and not standardize on an easily obtained magazine? That would have been a great selling point.”

“Dobe, I am sure that Tanfoglio and Armalite sell more firearms outside of the USA than they do in the USA.”

“Richard,
What does this mean in the context of what I wrote. I'm afraid I sincerely don't understand.”

Dobe, it means that there is a huge market outside of the USA and the importance of compatibility with CZ75 magazines isn’t necessarily an issue in those markets. With this said, TZ75 magazines have never been hard for me to find and they work well in my TZ75.

“I remain perplexed as to why anyone would want one when the real McCoy is freely available and far better made?

Rbernie, When I purchased my first Tanfoglio FIE TZ75 it was next to impossible to buy CZ pistols in the USA. I have spoken to representatives of EAA (Tanfoglio) and they feel their product (TZ75) is superior to the CZ75 products. I have owned both TZ and CZ pistols and I see very little difference in how they perform.

Regards,

Richard:D

rbernie
April 8, 2007, 06:33 PM
Rbernie, When I purchased my first Tanfoglio FIE TZ75 it was next to impossible to buy CZ pistols in the USA. I have spoken to representatives of EAA (Tanfoglio) and they feel their product (TZ75) is superior to the CZ75 products. I have owned both TZ and CZ pistols and I see very little difference in how they perform.
I have owned several TZs and at least a dozen CZs. The older TZs were much better finished than the current crop of EAA offerings, and were certainly on par with the CZ. The newer Witness pistols are not.

And I'd rather have hot tar poured up my nostrils than have to go back to EAA for post-sales support; I've been down that road a couple of times and have no desire to repeat it. CZ was the model of accomodation after my experiences with EAA.

I'm sure that Armalite will support their pistols well. I'm glad that they're bringing in the AR-24. I'm terribly disappointed with the one sample that I held, both in terms of its fitment and in its (relatively) high cost.

Caimlas
April 17, 2007, 06:29 AM
I don't know about over priced, because I had one offered to me today (gun dealer), new, for $399 (special from Armalite). He also sells CZs for about 50$ more than that.

Personally, I don't like the way it feels. Default grips on the right side are obtrusive, I don't like the raised bump on the rear of the slide, and there is a noteable lack of 'index finger grooves' over the trigger guard area, which I use to index on while not with my finger on the trigger. It's not bad, but those ruin three of the better things aout the CZ for me.

No_Brakes23
April 17, 2007, 06:54 AM
I wish Armalite all the best with their venture, but I will take a CZ or SIG, instead.

HorseSoldier
April 17, 2007, 08:25 AM
I don't know about over priced, because I had one offered to me today (gun dealer), new, for $399 (special from Armalite). He also sells CZs for about 50$ more than that.

Only one place around me is currently stocking the Armalite pistols. In that store the relationship is reversed -- new CZ-75 full size runs about $430, and he wants $480 for a full-size Armalite.

I have to +1 the guys who've noted the CZ magazine issue as a reason for not buying. Between my P-01 and SP-01, I have an assortment of 9mm CZ magazines (originals plus Mecgar aftermarkets) and if the Armalites could use any of those I might have been willing to try one out. As it is, I'm more likely to buy a stock CZ-75B to add to the CZ collection than pick up the AR-24.

Caimlas
April 20, 2007, 08:24 AM
HorseSoldier, that seems about right. This Sportsman's rep said they bought half a dozen when they first came out (something like that) at a one-time-only discount to help move product, or something like that. The local gun shop down the street had it for $500-something - but they generally like to treat their customers poorly.

atblis
April 20, 2007, 01:52 PM
Some initial thoughts posted over at czforum.com. I'd probably buy one for $399.

Dealer was asking $550. He usually doesn't have bad prices so that should be pretty indicative of a typical price.

Well, it is a nice looking gun, looks well made, but it is not a beauty queen. The finish is a utilitarian matte black very reminiscent of the Witness black finish. Rather unremarkable

The slide to frame fit is slightly tighter than a 75B and way tighter than a plain Witness. Not custom 1911 tight... It is about right if you ask me.

The lockup had a decent "snick" to it. Again, not custom 1911 tight, but tight enough.

The extractor is different than a Tanfoglio and CZ. It appears to be more robust. Same basic concept, but slightly different execution. It has the potential to be an improvement.

The Bren Ten hump is not what I'd call attractive but it does seem to have the benefit of adding a decent grasping surface to the rear of the slide. This is noticeably improved.

The front sights are nicely dovetailed. I have no idea if it is a common dovetail though. The sights in general were nice. Large and visible.

Ergonomics were typical CZ perfection. Best description would be a happy medium between a large frame Witness and a CZ.

The trigger was on par with all of the Witnesses I've had. Better than a factory fresh 75B trigger (less camming), slightly gritty though (suspect a good cleaning might cure most of this). It felt like it would slick up quicker than a typical CZ trigger.

Did it come home with me? Nope. As much as I like CZ pattern guns, I think I'll wait for these to go on clearance at CDNN. Don't get me wrong, I do like the gun, I just don't think it is worth $550. $450...perhaps.

Didn't get to field strip it. The dealer was really busy, so I'll just get him in his shop later for a field strip inspection.

Richard
April 20, 2007, 01:57 PM
"The Bren Ten hump is not what I'd call attractive but it does seem to have the benefit of adding a decent grasping surface to the rear of the slide. This is noticeably improved."

I concur with this as the weakness of TZ/CZs is small frame height and that makes grasping the slide to rack it more difficult. Regards, Richard:D

Dobe
April 20, 2007, 02:02 PM
The more I think about it, the more I want one. The extra money over a standard CZ is worth it to me for a forged frame and slide. I swapped messages with an ArmaLite Rep on AR.com yesterday, and asked why they didn't have their handgun accept CZ magazines. He informed me that the purpose was not to make an exact clone. The idea was to make the best design they could.

Whether or not that is true, I don't know. I do like the answer, and would like to have one.

HorseSoldier
April 20, 2007, 05:51 PM
I swapped messages with an ArmaLite Rep on AR.com yesterday, and asked why they didn't have their handgun accept CZ magazines. He informed me that the purpose was not to make an exact clone. The idea was to make the best design they could.


Or, more realistically, the AR-24 is nothing more than a repackaged Turkish Kilinc pistol made by Sarsilmaz, which is itself based on the Tanfoglio CZ clones. Kilinc doesn't use CZ mags, so neither does AR-24. Armalite is just marketing the pistol, they don't seem to have had very much to do with its specifications.

Dobe
April 20, 2007, 06:59 PM
Armalite is just marketing the pistol, they don't seem to have had very much to do with its specifications.

I understand, but neither do they need to in this case. The market will surely determine if it sells or not. I kinda hope it does. If it shoots as well as it looks, it should do well.:)

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