[robear]

http://boston.com/dailyglobe2/164/metro/Logan_getting_weapons_upgrade+.shtml

Apologies if this has been posted already, I did a quick scan an didn't see anything..

Some pretty ignorant stuff in this one.. oh well, par for the course..

Logan getting weapons upgrade

Police are issued submachine guns

By Mac Daniel, Globe Staff, 6/13/2003

Submachine guns, long a common sight in many European airports, made their debut yesterday at Logan Airport, which has spent more than 11/2 years bolstering its security and image after becoming the takeoff point for two of the planes hijacked by terrorists in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Massport purchased 30 of the submachine guns, at a cost of $2,500 each, deploying them with the new State Police antiterrorism unit and making Logan the first airport in the nation to bring such high-tech weaponry to its terminals, roadways, curbs, and ramps.

''It's another tool, if you will, in our toolbox that allows us to make this a safer airport,'' said Major Tom Robbins, who heads State Police Troop F at Logan, where officers are handling the weapons after extensive training.

Each MD5SD weighs 7 pounds and has a long, built-in silencer that the manufacturer says is designed to be so effective that the sound of the bullet firing will make less noise than the clicking of the firing mechanism.

Robbins said he didn't think it would be that quiet, but said the silencer feature was a key component sought by the State Police to help mute the alarm caused if the guns have to be fired inside the airport's buildings. ''If it was shot in a terminal, the report would be very soft ... and that would create less panic,'' he said.

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

MP5SD submachine guns were used by German commandos in their 1977 raid on a hijacked Lufthansa airliner in Somalia, and by British special forces when they liberated the Iranian Embassy in London after a 1980 takeover.

If one of the submachine guns is fired at Logan, however, it would probably be a first at the airport. Phil Orlandella, Massport spokesman, said he could not recall a weapon of any kind being discharged inside Logan in his 23 years on the job.

While Logan is the first to acquire these guns, Robbins predicted that other airports throughout the nation will soon follow.

''It's also something that we want to put out there so that when terrorists come to this airport to conduct surveillance on things that they might want to do here, that it acts as a deterrent,'' he said.

Yesterday, the only troopers carrying the weapons in Terminal C were serving less as a deterrent than as a backdrop to the Massport news conference on the weapons. Most passengers interviewed welcomed the change.

''I actually feel safer simply because I know I can get to a safe place and have heavy cover,'' said Marian Diedrich-Wu, 41, of Brighton, who served in the Air Force.

''We need heavy cover,'' she said, pointing to the guns.

The MD5SD is an ominous-looking weapon that can fire a single 9mm round, or, with the flip of a switch, fire two rounds with a single pull of the trigger. It is highly accurate over long distances and will not fire a volley of uninterrupted bullets - something State Police wanted to avoid in crowded terminals.

Colin Andrews, 47, a British concert organist who now lives in Greenville, N.C., said at Logan yesterday that ''in Heathrow or Gatwick, to see a policeman with a semi-automatic weapon is normal. It means to me that there's a heightened state of vigilance.''

But Peggy Lucas-Taylor, 72, of Lehigh Acres, Fla., wasn't so sure.

''They should have something, but not necessarily a machine gun,'' she said. ''I think a machine gun would do more harm than good. It's such a big weapon. Maybe some of that pepper spray? Or a stun gun? I don't know.''

This story ran on page B4 of the Boston Globe on 6/13/2003.
© Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company.

[Devonai]

But Peggy Lucas-Taylor, 72, of Lehigh Acres, Fla., wasn't so sure.

"I'm an idiot," she said. "I don't know a thing about firearms or self defense, but the Globe needed to quote an idiot so here I am."

What a crock. Did anybody mention that these "big scary machine guns" are firing a sub-sonic round that couldn't penetrate level IIA Kevlar, easily purchased from any number of civilian sources?

:fire:

[Telperion]

''It's another tool, if you will, in our toolbox that allows us to make this a safer airport,'' said Major Tom Robbins, who heads State Police Troop F at Logan, where officers are handling the weapons after extensive training.

Troop F, hmm...

This is a bit of dupe: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20915

[CZ-75]

It was posted around a month ago, but a fresh discussion would be nice.

[TarpleyG]

high-tech weaponry :what:
What's so "high-tech" about technology that has been around since the Al Capone days. Oh, I forgot, it's matte black, not blued, so it MUST be "high-tech" or "tactical", right? That must be it.

GT

[voilsb]

no no, they really need those MP5s to defend against passengers who refuse to part with their fingernail clippers

[Blain]

Why would they want to spend 2.5k per MP5 when they already has superior ARs? Just to waste my money? Oh well, at least this downgrades their firepower. I'd rather them have these than ARs, would be easier to fight against MP5s than ARs. ;)

[Standing Wolf]

Each MD5SD weighs 7 pounds and has a long, built-in silencer that the manufacturer says is designed to be so effective that the sound of the bullet firing will make less noise than the clicking of the firing mechanism.

Click, click, click, click, click, click, click.

[FPrice]

I think this came up because they now have them and are using them on duty. The local TV stations had some pics last week...looks like they also use a mag-clip or something similar to attach a second magazine along side the first.

[c_yeager]

Personally i dont have a problem with people carrying the maximium amount of fire power possible in any given situation. But, really i think im missing the need for SD aspect of the MP5SD in this application. Arent silenced weapons more appropriate to offensive operations? Like when you want to be able to engage an enemy without warning the whole country side. Defensively it would seem to be a dissadvantage. I can just picture some poor SOB with a broken radio firing his weapon with none of his backup even having a clue as to what was going on. It just doesnt seem to add up.

[Sergeant Bob]

Robbins said he didn't think it would be that quiet, but said the silencer feature was a key component sought by the State Police to help mute the alarm caused if the guns have to be fired inside the airport's buildings. ''If it was shot in a terminal, the report would be very soft ... and that would create less panic,'' he said.

Presumeably they need this kind of firepower, with silencers, to fight armed terrorists (since it wouldn't be very effective against a terrorist strapped with explosives and a dead man switch). In which case, it wouldn't be any more effective than a sidearm. I wonder if the terrorists got the memo about using silencers so as not to panic the people in the terminals?

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

Jet fuel doesn't really care if you use a Bic or a blowtorch.

[Blain]

They have silencers too? Wow.....this is wrong....I don't know about you guys, but something doens't add up...

[TheeBadOne]

If (god forbid) a loud gun was fired off in an airport you'd start a stampede of people that would be horrendous, creating it's own problem and compounding any that you were trying to deal with in the first place.

[Fly320s]

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.

Yeah, I hate walking on the ramp and having to dodge the huge pools of Jet A. :rolleyes:

[CZ-75]

As has been alluded, the terrorists know that bringing firearms to the airport is going to be hard, so subguns are an answer to a threat that doesn't exist.
You can't stop a bomb or a biological agent with subguns, only armed terrorists using firearms.

[Don Gwinn]

Nice story. Actually, although subguns are nothing new, I think you could make the case that an MP5SD is a high-tech subgun.

The lady quoted is indeed a moron. She doesn't like the MP5 because it's so big? What did she think of the National Guardsmen with 20" barreled A2s? Pepper spray to replace a submachine gun? :scrutiny:


Also, I doubt 9mm subgun ammo is subsonic.

[Sir Galahad]

Blain appreciate the downgrade in firepower as it makes it easier to fight them one day. Note to Blain: It isn't prudent to post things about fighting the government and/or their emmissaries on the internet that their tools Carnivore and Echelon actively monitor. You also posted just getting a permit or permission to buy a handgun in another post. Bingo. They already know who you are and where you live. The revolution will never start because everyone talking about it will already be whisked away to camps where they will be forced to watch Brady Bunch re-runs (in particular, the one where the Bradys sing and make a record, even though Peter's voice is cracking), subsist on store-brand fish sticks (without ketchup) and macaroni-and-cheese (not Kraft, but the revolting elbow version with watery cheese), and listen to Perry Como records played backwards (played backwards, Perry Como records say, "Mlurp, mlurp, walump, you too will become one with the Fed, mlurp, wallomp, none shall pass, wallump, mwurp, all shall kneel before the Fed, wallump, lurp, all shall love the Fed and despair, lollump, lorp...")

[Sir Galahad]

Oh, and I almost forgot. The ringleaders of the revolution will get the "special treatment" at the camp. They will be forced to watch re-runs of the Partridge Family and the old Mazola, Oscar Mayer, and Miracle Whip commercials. How can they force you to watch it? Seen Clockwork Orange? Also, they will be reduced to subsisting on Linda McCartney frozen vegetarian dinners and pimento loaf and sweet pickle sandwiches made with 7 grain bread and Miracle Whip and have to listen to "New Kids On The Block" 24 hours a day on overhead speakers. So, mark you well the things you speak here, for the All-Seeing Eye of Fedus is watching.

[brownie0486]

Don Gwinn: I waited to hear from someone on the subsonic statement. You are correct, of course.

The mp5sd some of the boys [ not all ] were issued at troop F recently is old news. The latest subguns were just issued more of the initial shipment to the troopers which were months ago.

The trooprs need to be trained in basic tactics as well as the correct operation of the subguns before they are issued them while on duty. That takes time and money, logistics on shifts being covered, etc.

Sir Galahad: The mp5sd is not a downgrade from their pistols [ their standard issued equipment ].
On the contrary, they are a serious upgrade and what is needed where large groups of people gather.

Precise controlled fire is paramount where herds of people are intertwined with targets appearing randomly amoungst innocent civilans. As they are shoulder fired, and have the capability to be more accurate this is a good thing for us who travel. European countries have had these weapons in place at their airports a long time. They have been there for over a decade, maybe two. 9-11 changed that for us as well.

Fly320s: I think a more likely scenario he was talking about would be something along the lines of jet fuel all over the area including fumes. Then having a dogfight at the tarmac near or under the plane while it is boarding passengers into the plane. If the fuel ignites under the plane would you want to be in it as a passenger?
How about one of the ground crew caught in the middle of something. I think it was an afterthought on his part and not the main reason they are using the sd's.

CZ-75: Scenario: A few terrorists are caught inside the terminal. They have knives [ again ].
They immediately take hostages as shields. Those in the immediate vacinity hear dunshots and rush to cover or exits creating major confusion, noise, distractions and grave danger. A trooper properly trained with an mp-5sd will be able to shoot the terrorist in the head from 20 yrds, anything closer is cake.

Because the weapon was suppressed, they had no guns [ your scenario ]most would not hear, if they were 10 feet out, the mp5sd doing it's job. Less panic, less stampeding, less danger of another getting into crossfires.

As their previously issued duty weapons are pistols and most people I know won't attempt a head shot at 20 yrds or 3 yds with pistols for fearing of killing the hostage and they are not suppressed.
One can stop efficiently accurately and quietly.
One can not do these things[ their duty pistols ]
let me ask you,
Is there a need/benefit for them at the terminals?

TheeBadOne: Very astute.

Blain: Somethings wrong? What doesn't add up? Please explain these comments about the troopers carrying suppressed mp5's. AR's are not as reliable. When the miltypes were watching the gates they had .223 rounds. That is a danger to civilians in tight quarters due to over penetration. The mp5sd shoots 9mm and can put the first two in one hole and a thrid 1 inch high and a tad off center. And it's relatively easy. AR's are not superior in that venue.

c_yeager: see above. It's a great weapons platform that has been used succesfully against terrorists all over the world. Yes, it's used offensively by elite mil types suppressed and by swat types in hostage rescue for many reasons. I find it hard to believe you can't see a defensive role for this weapon as well. I can assure you they know how to use their radios. I won't explain the system they use here.

FPrice: It's a mag clamp, holds two mags side by side just far enough apart to allow it's use in the weapon. A good time on mag changes with these is 1 second on that platform. I've seen some who are subsecond and you can't really tell if they changed mags if they are doing three round bursts.

Standing Wolf: Hence the ten feet in my posting above. Thats correct. You hear the bolt moving back and forth. In a hotel room with an sd shooting phone books no one would hear you in the next room even if it was a cheap motel and the walls were paper thin.

TarpleyG: The H+K roller lock gas system incorporated in that series of weapons was not around during Capones days. It's as high tech as you get right now and they've been around fro awhile. It's a superior subgun chosen by professionals who do the kinds of things others talk about with no knowledge of the weapon. Thats why GW is protected by them.

Devonai: Don't put a vest on and try your theory sir. We'll never see another post from you.

Any other questions about why the tropers carry what they have now?

Brownie

[No4Mk1*]

$2500 seems a lot for a 9mm with two shot burst. Maybe it is a bit more complex than a sten, but $2500??? Sounds like a fine gun though.
Sometimes panic is a very good thing. As has been eluded to, a shootout with a gang of AKM toting terrorists seems less likely than police engaging one walking suicide bomber. If the police begin to shoot a suicide bomber who is standing 20 feet behind you, would you prefer them to be using a silenced weapon so you would just stand there or something nice and loud that might envoke panic? Besides as has already been said, if the bad guys are using firearms, panic will ensue anyways.

[cordex]

brownie0486,
I hope you'll excuse our jealousy.

Personally, I don't think it's necessary, but it doesn't bother me in the least. I think suppressed weapons should be available to an airport security team. Just not sure they need all of their long-arms to be suppressed. But they've got to spend all that neat Fed funding, right? Might as well get all the cool features you can on the guns.
Scenario: A few terrorists are caught inside the terminal. They have knives [ again ].
They immediately take hostages as shields. Those in the immediate vacinity hear dunshots and rush to cover or exits creating major confusion, noise, distractions and grave danger. A trooper properly trained with an mp-5sd will be able to shoot the terrorist in the head from 20 yrds, anything closer is cake.
Are gas masks, flashbangs, tear gas, bomb disposal gear, and door breaching charges issued along with the MP5SDs? Seems like they could also have potential uses. All about risk management, I guess. If your airport is more likely to be stormed by a team of Renaissance Fair Commandos than having some loner try use a bleach and ammonia mix to give you trouble then I think you are appropriately prepared. *grin*

If only I could go out and buy one. Even for the inflated price of $2,500. Yummy. (I assume that $2,500 included some serious service agreements, right?)
When the miltypes were watching the gates they had .223 rounds. That is a danger to civilians in tight quarters due to over penetration. The mp5sd shoots 9mm and can put the first two in one hole and a thrid 1 inch high and a tad off center.
Well now, there's some contention as to the issue of overpenetration between .223 and 9mm. Haven't done the tests myself, but I've heard both ways. Nice that you can get quick follow up shots, though.

[CZ-75]

Is there a need/benefit for them at the terminals?

Yeah. It makes people FEEL safe. In my gun-less scenario, the terrorists have no need to take hostages, as they just detonate/disperse their bombs or agents in place of maximum opportunity and crowd density. Their operations are about stealth, not being as overt as possible.

Were they cornered, they would detonate immediately. A dead man's switch isn't out of the question, either, based on the technological proficiency demonstrated by these terrorist groups in the past with coordinated attacks in multiple locations and such bits as altimeter/barometric activated detonators. Just about the time your officer takes his headshot, he's being cut apart by ball bearings (or glass marbles to fool the metal detectors) traveling 2 1/2 miles per second.

[c_yeager]

Brownie, i never questioned their right or necessesity to carry more fire power. I personally would carry as much as i could get away with. But dont you think that a supressed 9mm firing subsonic (doesnt make much sense to use supersonic ammo from an SD weapon) ammunition defeat a lot of the benefits of carrying a long arm in the first place?

[243_shooter]

It's good to see that they are prepared for the terrorist hordes.. You know the guys that waked right buy them before, and they'll walk right buy them again..

<sigh>

I feel safer already.

</sigh>

Leo

[brownie0486]

c_yeager:

I don't know they are using sunsonic ammo. Was that reported somewhere?

243_shooter: If they walk by them they won't need them. If they get caught attempting to board then the sd's will come into their own. Of course not all scenarios are cured by having a subgun, but the subgun has proven it's worth as a counter-terrorist weapon whe the SHTF comes along. Certainly much better at precision aimed fire under hostage situations.

CZ-75: See above, you don't think any piece of hardware will be effective 100% of the time do you? In your scenario, they wouldn't need their pistols either, does that mean they should not be carrying them at the airport, come on now, think.

cordex: I'm not sure why anyone would be jealous of anything, but not all their long arms are suppressed, I take long arms as meaning rifles, subguns aren't considered long arms usually.

Not sure that they carry the flashbangs and other gear on them, nor think they would need immediacy with much of it as most of the equipment is for assaultive, offensive work and they are in a defensive role for the most part. They would of course have all that available to the spec ops response teams and I'm sure the bomb unit isn't that far [ time wise ] from making an appearance when called.

The 223 is certainly under all conditions more penetrative than the 9mm. Both do well at penetration in ball but one less so due to rifle vs. pistol velocities.

No4Mk1*: Apparently you are unfamiliar with the pricing structure of smg's and autos in the last decade. They are getting pretty steep for a lot of different reasons, but the question may be better posed as this? What is the cost of safety and superior fire control vs. handguns.

As to price, you can spend that much on a race gun the boys use in IPSC easily, and thats a pistol. 900.00 for a sig handgun isn't unheard of, I don't think the 2500. is that much for the amount of security it can provide when needed.

Brownie

[Devonai]

Devonai: Don't put a vest on and try your theory sir. We'll never see another post from you.

So you're saying that level IIA isn't rated to stop 147-grain subsonic 9mm JHP? I admit I may have been thinking of level II, but even still my point is valid. Your comment is sardonic.

[brownie0486]

Level 11a standard is: 9 mm FMJ at ~1,090 fps

It would be close out of a subgun, not something I would bet my life on. Handguns are a different story.

BTW--Sardonic, great word, and thanks for the word power. I enjoy others who have a command of the english language.

The troopers will mostly be doing headshots with the sd's, body shots allow one to live long enough to do more damage.

Brownie

[voilsb]

brownie, you question whether they will really be using subsonic ammo (which makes sense out of a suppressed weapon) because it was not explicitly stated somewhere, yet you assume they are going to be making headshots, even though it is not explicitly stated anywhere?

and regarding overpenetration, 62gr SS109 fragments explosively when it hits a body under 75 yards out of a 14.5" barrel. there is no such thing as overpenetration if it hits a body.

if it misses the body, wall overpenetration doesn't really matter in an airport setting because of the large rooms and general lack of interior walls like in urban settings. if you miss your target, there's a good chance you'll hit someone else without it ever hiting a wall, so wall overpenetration is a moot point

[brownie0486]

voilsb :

I didn't question whether they would be using subsonic, I asked if anyone had seen them state they were using subsonics or whether it was someones assumption.

I'll assume they were trained in defensive tactics on the mp5sd like I was at HK in 94, where hostages are concerned, which was what the topic was [ hostages ].

I see no reason to believe they would not use them accordingly. It does no good to shoot the terrorist in the body and have him kill others while he is writhing around and dying on the floor. Add to that the fact that hostage takers are usually presenting a very small body target [ they are usually using hostages as shields ] and you are left with the headshot which the mp5sd can make quite accurately in a heartbeat.

I know the tactics of swat through first hand experience and training on these weapons. Any other questions?

Brownie

[dav]

This thread disturbs me. Brownie's position especially.

The people at Logan admit they have not fired a shot in their 23 year existence. What prompts the need for "superior firepower" now? It would not have stopped 9/11. They were undetected, there was no firefight then, and there won't be one next time.

And most important... the government should not control points of travel with better firearms than I am permitted to have in their presence.

The state should not be better armed than the populace. This is the simple definition of a police state, which this article simply confirms now exists in the U.S.

David Row
San Diego

[TheeBadOne]

The people at Logan admit they have not fired a shot in their 23 year existence. What prompts the need for "superior firepower" now?
Why do you wear a seatbelt when you drive? Are you planning on having a crash? No, you wear it "just in case". Same here. There is a good chance that you'll never need it........but if you do, you'll need it quite badly.

[seeker_two]

The use of silencers in airports is understandable. Unsupressed gunfire in a large crowd of people never has a happy ending...:what:

What I've got a problem with is giving full-auto subguns costing $2K+ to a police force w/ minimal training devoted to the school of "spray & pray." Now THAT'S an unhappy ending waiting to happen!!! :what: :what:

Why not use a silenced semi-auto pistol-caliber carbine w/ low-penetration (i.e. Glaser, PowRBall, etc) ammo? Easier to shoot. Easier to hit a target (esp. w/ low-power glass). Cheaper to buy. Leaves more money to train for accuracy. Ruger & Colt make excellent versions in 9mm, .40S&W, & .45ACP (there's even a semi-auto .44 Mag for the "more power" crowd.) And, for the price of 1 MP5, you can buy three Rugers!

Show a little fiscal & firearm responsibility, please...:cool:

[Erik]

If I were a terrorist looking to make a big impact on America I'd get a few cohorts, waltz into one of the bigger international airports, introduce a few AKs and Uzis on scene, and strike a severe economic and psychic blow to the evil infidels.

If I were in charge of curbing the violence, I'd want my men to be armed with more than their pistols. (I chose the word "curb" with care. You cannot currently stop such an attack from initiating.)

[TheeBadOne]

seeker_two - if you'll notice in the article the MP5's are not fully automatic. They can operate as a semi-automatic, or 2 shot burst. Very few fully automatic guns are used by Law Enforcement nation wide. Most are semi-auto and some have 2 or 3 shot burst capability. The MP5 is a damned accurate firearm, and being short and handy just adds to it.

[CZ-75]

come on now, think.

Apparently, I'm doing more than you, since I realize that no firearm on earth can stop a bomb or biological agent. You must think the terrorists are idiots who want to fail. I say otherwise and realize that area weapons are far more effective than firearms when indiscriminately killing people. To have firearms would actually hinder them, which is why the 9/11 terrorists slipped by with box cutters the last time they succeeded.

So, this reduces the threat to troopers to the occasional unstable individual, such as the goof who shot up the El Al counter at LAX, for whom a pistol is adequate. Consider that the Israelis rely heavily on undercover security to successfully deal with their threats and these men are mostly armed with pistols. The only value of SMGs is intimidation to some and false security to the rest. The first people I'd kill as a terrorist would be the heavily armed BDU clad state troopers, probably with silenced .22s to reverse the scenario and not allow the shots to alert other officers.

Please come up with another patronizing response.

Erik,

If I were a terrorist, I'd be doing what John Mohammed and Lee Malvo did, only with about 50 two-man teams, well trained, roaming randomly around the country. Far more effective than what you suggest and far less likely to encounter resistance. The OK Corral scenario is foolish and a waste of assets for only a localized effect that may have a residual for a few weeks, until every airport in the country has SMG toting BDU clad officers around to make everyone feel safe. Oh, I'd also randomly homicide-bomb a few shopping malls with C-4 satchel charges and ball-bearing laden vests, starting with around a half dozen at one time in the Mall of the Americas in MN.

[brownie0486]

Erik: A good obsservation and very well stated sir.

seeker_two: I take it you have been involved with their training with these over the last year personally to make such a statement of fact ,

[ "a police force w/ minimal training devoted to the school of "spray & pray" ]

because if you haven't been directly involved with their training and doctrines with the mp5's you have just made yourself look uneducated at best and perhaps a little anti establishmental to boot.

Silenced pistols are easier to shoot than shoulder fired weapons?
You must have some training I am not aware of. Please explain where you learned to fire anything unsupported [ hand held ] with more accuracy and ease of operation. This should get interesting. Hope you can clarify your training that allowed that statement. I want to take the next class from this person and will contact immediately when you give us the source of such skills.

I would assure you they troopers aren't about spray and pray with the mp5sd's but I will wait to hear that you have some inside information gleened by being involved in their actual training.

dav states "The state should not be better armed than the populace. This is the simple definition of a police state, which this article simply confirms now exists in the U.S."

It may confirm itself in your mind, but it doesn't make it factual. Are you putting yourself in a position daily to stand between acts of terrorism and the general publics safety concerns? If not I suggest you join them to understand their position and dangers they potentially face daily. Until you walk in their shoes you are educated to the risks involved.

You have a problem with my position? Your anti-establishmentary rant lends itself to questioning yours sir. You don't know what they know, you don't do what they do, you don't face the threat of being targeted by wearing a uniform like they do, nor do you apparently care to learn from those who have the knowledge and share it.

BTW--thats not the simple defintion of police state [ where police have better weapons than the general populace ]. Here's the definition and source which you could have looked up as well in lieu of making another guess to fit your thinking and apparent attitude.

Random House College Dictionary defines a police state as "a nation in which the police, esp. a secret police, suppresses any act that conflicts with government policy."

Got it?

Hey Dav, your prohesizing this --"there was no firefight then, and there won't be one next time." is very interesting. My question is now why the Ma. State Police didn't consult with you first and save them time and money as you know there will not be a firefight next time the terrorists attempt a criminal act against us.

Where did you buy that crystal ball of yours, I need to run out and get one myself. Don't make me wait any longer than necessary please, the lottery is up to 140 million this week.

Brownie

[brownie0486]

CZ-75:
Apparently the scenario I gave where they would use them in a hostage taking situation escaped you somehow. They don't need a gun to need to be shot with a precision highly reliable shoulder fired weapon. If you don't see the reasoning behind being prepared with the best counter-terrorist weapon designed to date for CQB than nothing I or others say will matter to you.

Lets see, every major airport in Europe has had miltypes or police forces carrying subguns for over a decade. The Isrealis included.
They surely must not know what you know as they are in error and you are correct? They don't have the background and actual attacks to build a working defense around real world situations that have already ocurred and you do, I see now, they are all wrong for carrying them at the airports and you have the right answers here. My mistake I guess.

BTW--The Israelis carry subguns in the airports, you are talking about Massad agents who use pistols for the most part. Have you ever been to that country, in their airports, worked with their military units, trained with them side by side? Apparently not by your misguided information which apparently was guessed and not anything of substance.

Thank god you are not a terrorist there sir. With your lack of knowledge of tactics, procedures, weapons systems and penchant for stating facts that have no basis in reality but instead are based on supposition, you may make that mistake and believe I'm some jack booted thug who doesn't know how to get out of my own way.

Your position that you would roam the country as a terrorist has no bearing on the thread here which is about static locations security. Apples to oranges whic is certainly irrelevant and not germain to the subject being discussed here.

Have any military service with any country, have any police training? Ever worked the streets armed standing between innocents and the yahoos who wish to harm innocents, ever stood a post on a lonely stretch of soil oversees protecting others freedoms, ever protected dignitaries or VIP's under threats of death? Ever handled an mp5sd, shot it, been trained in it's use?

Maybe thats why your posts don't make any sense, its from the armchair you speak and not the real world experiences of a trained professional.

Any other suppositional facts you care to draw from thin air?

Brownie

[cordex]

I'm not sure why anyone would be jealous of anything,
Because of greatly inflated prices (due to the NFA '34 as amended by the GCA '68, the prohibition of new manufacture or registration of machine guns for mere civilians made in '86 and, I suppose, the import ban on non-sporting weapons of '89) and tedious gov't paperwork involved (see NFA '34/GCA '68), these weapons are beyond my ability to own or even use on a regular basis. That law enforcement officers can have these weapons purchased for them is something that inspires a wee bit of jealousy in me. Not that I wish they don't have them, mind you. Just that I would like to be able to purchase them as well.
I take long arms as meaning rifles, subguns aren't considered long arms usually.
*shrug* Mid-arms? Longish arms? Whatever. Would "primary shoulder fired weapon" be better?
Not sure that they carry the flashbangs and other gear on them, nor think they would need immediacy with much of it as most of the equipment is for assaultive, offensive work and they are in a defensive role for the most part.
Gas masks are certainly not assaultive, especially in the event of a chemical attack on an airport. They might also be useful in the event of a fire (say, in the aftermath of an explosion) or against some biological attacks. Plus, I can see greater potential for far more realistic uses of a gas mask than a suppressed subgun in an airport setting.
They would of course have all that available to the spec ops response teams and I'm sure the bomb unit isn't that far [ time wise ] from making an appearance when called.
The point I was unsuccessfully attempting to make was that while it isn't hard to dream up a scenario wherein suppressed 9mm submachine guns would be useful. Nor is it difficult to think up a scenario in which a ceramic knife would be useful for an airport security guard. The fact that there is a possibility that it could see use doesn't strike me as sufficient reason to justify the expense. As I said before, it's all about risk management.
Why, praytell, shouldn't the MP5SDs be relegated to the same response teams that bring in the flashbangs? Especially at that price.
Is it a huge amount in the grand scheme of things? No. But it's far more than buying a comparable unsuppressed version, is it not?
The 223 is certainly under all conditions more penetrative than the 9mm. Both do well at penetration in ball but one less so due to rifle vs. pistol velocities.
Sir, I respectfully disagree. I would say that it is entirely possible to find some commercial and military loads in each caliber that would outpenetrate another specific load in the other caliber. I know for a fact that there are conditions that .223 will penetrate less than 9mm. Physics isn't as easy as "this is faster, so it makes a deeper hole", but I'm sure you're well aware of that.
In response to this comment, not addressed to me:
It may confirm itself in your mind, but it doesn't make it factual. Are you putting yourself in a position daily to stand between acts of terrorism and the general publics safety concerns? If not I suggest you join them to understand their position and dangers they potentially face daily. Until you walk in their shoes you are educated to the risks involved.
Hey now ... I don't think he was saying that these airport guards shouldn't have top-of-the-line equpment ... just that he should not be denied that same ability, or have major governmental interference with said ability to buy and own them.

My attitude: Sure! Buy 'em and carry 'em! My blessing upon you!
Now why make it so hard for me to do so if I wish to?
Silenced pistols are easier to shoot than shoulder fired weapons?
You must have some training I am not aware of. Please explain where you learned to fire anything unsupported [ hand held ] with more accuracy and ease of operation. This should get interesting. Hope you can clarify your training that allowed that statement. I want to take the next class from this person and will contact immediately when you give us the source of such skills.
No, but if a terrorist is going to shoot at a security guard, he has the option of walking up behind him and screwing the pistol into the guard's ear and firing. It has nothing to do with shooting it out across the concourse.

[243_shooter]

Ever handled an mp5sd, shot it, been trained in it's use?

SMG? HA! I can't even get a full capacity magazine for my pistol.

We've all seen how effective the SMG's have been against terrorism overseas :barf: :barf: I suppose they'll work SO much better here.

<sigh>

Like I said, I feel SO much safer already.

Leo

[seeker_two]

seeker_two: I take it you have been involved with their training with these over the last year personally to make such a statement of fact

Nope. Just read the FBI stats involving officer-involved shootings. Lots of shots fired---few hits made. That and the trend for city councils to spend more on equipment & legal protection than training its officers to shoot well. THAT would protect the citizenry more than having the latest chattergun at its disposal.

Ever handled an mp5sd, shot it, been trained in it's use?

Yes. While it's a great weapon, I don't see anything it does better than an M-1 Carbine or Ruger PC-9 couldn't do--esp. with a good set of optics. In fact, I think the carbines would be a little easier for the "average" LEO who doesn't shoot more than just semi-annual qualification.

Money well spent is money well spent. Money wasted is money wasted. MP5's are a waste. Spend the money on something better (semi-auto carbines, more training, etc.)

YYMV...

[brownie0486]

You don't waste money when you buy mp5's, you get what you pay for. It's not my opinion, it's the opinion of every major counter anything unit for a reason. Your something better is in the minority with those who do it for a living.

FBI stats? exactly, the pistols used by officers on the streets aren't as accurate of as easy to shoot rapidly under fire than an mp5, made my case for me on that one sir.

Of course you can match rounds to suit the needs, but that was not the case with the NG mil boys who were using standard issue nato ball at the airport so the smg is safer to the general public in 9mm.

The need for suppression has already been established. It's more but not that much more. For it's benefits certainly not much more at all.

They are not airport guards, they are Mass SP's.
We are not talking screeners at the terminals who check your bags through the machines here. They have had these same subguns [ not all suppressed ] for their reactioanary "stop" teams for over 15 years. This isn't big news or even new news about their having them. They have just been in the spotlight of late as the second group of troopers and weapons were matched up.

Though admittedly some of the troopers are new to the weapons system, after training for a week, they are proficient enough to acquire and hit very small targets rapidly [on single fire ]. Shooting across the concourse is much easier with a suppressed mp5sd than a pistol, no matter whose holding it.

The boys in blue and grey wish to thank you, through you generous federal tax dollars, for their new equipment, training, and overtime pay due to the events of 9-11 as part of the homeland security act.

Do any of you people have an issue with money spent on homeland security, to buy the considered very best available? It sounds it here by some of your views stated. You did realize these were purchased with your tax dollars didn't you?

Brownie

[cordex]

The need for suppression has already been established.
Right. Because it isn't hard to come up with a semi-plausible potential confrontation that could be resolved better with a suppressed weapon.

Has not the need for full chemical gear also been established, because I can think up a very plausible situation where that would come in handy?

Or ceramic knives?
Do any of you people have an issue with money spent on homeland security, to buy the considered very best available? It sounds it here by some of your views stated.
Very thin argument for spending my money. Could also be used to justify spending just about any amount for any item as long as you can put the label of "homeland security" on it.
Just because they're the "considered very best available" - or so says "every major counter anything unit" - doesn't mean they fit every situation.

But as I said, I'm all for allowing public servants to carry them if their equipment budget can fit it. Just peturbed that these same public servants are all too happy to deny me the same tools.
You did realize these were purchased with your tax dollars didn't you?
Oh yes. We are well aware of that.
For that very reason, I ... and others ... have brought up the cost several times.

I am exponentially more likely to be involved in a fatal car accident than be the victim of a terrorist assault at any airport. yet I don't have 360 degree airbags. Why?
One last time ... RISK MANAGEMENT.

[seeker_two]

Though admittedly some of the troopers are new to the weapons system, after training for a week...

A whole week. THAT makes me feel more secure...:scrutiny:

You did realize these were purchased with your tax dollars didn't you?

Yep. And so are the $100 hammers, $200 toilet seats, and the Congressional "fact-finding" trips to Paris & the Bahamas...:cuss:

A person can drive a nail w/ a $5 hammer just as well as with a $100 hammer. Does this slight the quality of the $100 hammer? No. But, if hammering nails is your goal, it makes the $95 cost difference a little harder to justify.

(Shall we continue the discussion to the $200 toilet seats?..:what: )

I agree that we should give the LEO's the best equipment & training. But sometimes the best doesn't have to cost an outrageous fortune. And just being the most expensive doesn't mean it's the best for the job.

P.S. I LIKE THE SILENCER IDEA! The full-auto/burst-fire SMG's are my point of contention.

[brownie0486]

seeker_two:
I am glad it makes you feel secure they get a week of subgun, it should.

A week on the subguns wil put you in good standing as to their operation, maintenance and fire control. Tactics would not necessarily be included but some are of course. They are very easy to operate effectively, one of the reasons they are considered one of the best, if not the best as well as their inherent accuracy and dependability.

If you had a week on the subguns you would also be good to go unless you couldn't handle a weapon to begin with. I don't think that is the case with the Ma SP's however.

Your hammer and toilet analogy isn't valid in this instance as you would have to claim that another subgun with the same ergonomics and accuracy could be bought for less [ which is not the case with the mp5's ]. Poor argument and analogy. Sometimes the best doesn't have to cost more, agreed, but in the case of these weapons you pay their price or use something less effective and dependable.

Now knowing that, if you were in their shoes and had to carry a subgun as a mandate to perform your job would you want the best at any cost to potentially save your bacon ads well as others or would you be happy to settle for something less? Please don't say you would settle for less than the best if it was available and your life and others hung in the balance. Anyone want to come forward with that process? If not, why all the chatter about pricepoint?

Walk a mile in their shoes and educate yourselves in current events [ say the last 20 years worldwide ] so that you can make an objective opinion about what and why people, who go in harms way daily, want the best they can have. It's not a big leap to put yourself in their shoes and understand the admins reluctance to give their troops something less than optimum for such a potentially serious scenario.

It's not a thin argument, it's my money also that pays for safety concerns and implemented procedures since 9-11. It was a wakeup call, do we not answer the phone?

seeker_two, you stated "Spend the money on something better (semi-auto carbines, more training, etc.)"-- They are spending the money on training and will continue to do so for some time. Are you aware that training eats up big chinks of the budgets allocated as well?

MP5SD's--coming to a city near you next. What ya gonna do, call ghost busters?

Brownie

[seeker_two]

Your hammer and toilet analogy isn't valid in this instance as you would have to claim that another subgun with the same ergonomics and accuracy could be bought for less [ which is not the case with the mp5's ].

1. SMG'S AREN'T NECESSARY IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE!
2. Colt, Ruger, and a few other companies can match or exceed the MP5's accuracy & handling for far less money.

Now knowing that, if you were in their shoes and had to carry a subgun as a mandate to perform your job would you want the best at any cost to potentially save your bacon ads well as others or would you be happy to settle for something less?

1. SMG'S AREN'T NECESSARY IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE!
2. You don't have to pay 2.5K in order for it to be "the best." In fact, someone else agrees too...

Sometimes the best doesn't have to cost more, agreed...

3. Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?

They are spending the money on training and will continue to do so for some time. Are you aware that training eats up big chinks of the budgets allocated as well?

Yep. And EVERYONE (LEO's included) benefits a lot more when said monies go toward TRAINING than bigger, cooler TOYS.

brownie: I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to go out & buy yourself the latest, greatest, uber-tactical, full-auto combat tupperware; but don't force the taxpayers to buy it for you. LEO's are paid to PROTECT & SERVE; and training is the best way to make them better at both. Leave the "tactical equipment modeling" to the mall ninjas...:rolleyes:

[TheeBadOne]

2. Colt, Ruger, and a few other companies can match or exceed the MP5's accuracy & handling for far less money.
Sorry, while fine arms in their own rights, they don't match the MP5 for said mission.

Also, the difference in money may not be as much as you think.

[brownie0486]

seeker_two: Of course you are entitled to your views and opinions but your determining their needs without walking in their shoes really isa stretch there.

Do you have time on these weapons? Any time at all? It doesn't sound like you do, but I will reserve until I hear it from the horses mouth. If you don't, do you think perhaps you are speaking from a lack of knowledge about what they can do vs one of the other arms you have suggested?

If you are familiar with an mp5 in any configuration as well as the arms you purport to be every bit as good and costing less money, and that would be as efficient for their tasks, you have a basis to make the statements you have. If you don't how are you able to determine anything about their choices.

I enjoy your opinions for the most part, they make me smile and reaffirm the ideas that there are those amoung us who have stated opinions that are brought forth with conviction but have no basis in reality.

Once again, good going there sir.

Brownie

[bfason]

Each MD5SD weighs 7 pounds and has a long, built-in silencer that the manufacturer says is designed to be so effective that the sound of the bullet firing will make less noise than the clicking of the firing mechanism.

I always wanted an MD5, but decided to save up for either a AR-16 or an M-15. Maybe an AK-3.14159.



-------------
Illiterate? Write for free helpful brochure.

[seeker_two]

brownie:

1. Reread my earlier posts. You already asked if I've used an MP5 before. I've already answered it. Keep up w/ the discussion...:banghead:

2. I still haven't gotten an answer to a question I've posted earlier...

3. Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?

(...but I'm pretty sure of THAT answer. :rolleyes: )

3. If you want an SMG to complement your armament, BUY IT WITH YOUR OWN MONEY! Leave the taxpayers out of accumulating your Christmas list. And make sure I'm not in the same airport when you decide to "rock & roll" on some tangos instead of going for accurate shots (which a semi-auto pistol-caliber carbine can do quite well, thank you very much.)

I have questions, brownie. Do you have answers?...:scrutiny:

[CZ-75]

Apparently the scenario I gave where they would use them in a hostage taking situation escaped you somehow. They don't need a gun to need to be shot with a precision highly reliable shoulder fired weapon. If you don't see the reasoning behind being prepared with the best counter-terrorist weapon designed to date for CQB than nothing I or others say will matter to you.


No, just irrelevant. You're addressing tactics that no smart terrorist would utilize anymore.

BTW--The Israelis carry subguns in the airports, you are talking about Massad agents who use pistols for the most part. Have you ever been to that country, in their airports, worked with their military units, trained with them side by side? Apparently not by your misguided information which apparently was guessed and not anything of substance.

I know they carry subguns, it is just that they don't feel the need to stand around looking intimidating with them. They carry them under jackets, when they carry them at all. Israel relies on undercover security, which is smart, since terrorists will be gunning for uniformed personnel.

I wonder, though, if a SEEL operator such as yourself knows about their security procedures and tactics, or if you just read it in Jane's Defence Weekly. Surely an expert such as yourself would be able to spell "Mossad" correctly, having worked with them and all. :rolleyes:

Your position that you would roam the country as a terrorist has no bearing on the thread here which is about static locations security. Apples to oranges whic is certainly irrelevant and not germain [sic] to the subject being discussed here.


No, we're talking about effective tactics. Incredibly stupid to waste resources on targets that aren't worth attacking head-on because of the low probability of success and minimal terror value. That is where random killings come in. After all, why waste resources attacking a target being guarded by SMG toting JBTs when you can kill people where they live? Mass destruction and mass terror are the tactics that produce best results for terrorists. Shooting up an airport isn't it. Terrorists might kill a hundred or so that way. Blowing themselves up in a terminal would increase that many-fold and sure as hell couldn't be stopped with SMGs.



Have any military service with any country, have any police training? Ever worked the streets armed standing between innocents and the yahoos who wish to harm innocents, ever stood a post on a lonely stretch of soil oversees protecting others freedoms, ever protected dignitaries or VIP's under threats of death? Ever handled an mp5sd, shot it, been trained in it's use?

No, I wanted to get an education. :neener:

I'm sure you did, though, as a "Massad" agent, before joining the SEELs. :rolleyes:

[TheeBadOne]

No, just irrelevant. You're addressing tactics that no smart terrorist would utilize anymore.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
We all know there are no dumb criminals, or crazy people, or drug abusers anymore. They are all very very bright, all MENSA members and more.....

brilliant terrorists...:rolleyes:

[CZ-75]

We all know there are no dumb criminals, or crazy people, or drug abusers anymore. They are all very very bright, all MENSA members and more.....

Well, they sure figured out how to get on three airliners, take them over with box cutters, and fly them into buildings.

It doesn't matter how smart the soldier is, it's the battleplan that matters most. Surely Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama, et al. can draw up some pretty good ones. This kind of limited thinking will only get us JBTs standing around with SMGs in a target that will either be bypassed entirely, or destroyed in a mass event that no SMG-toting JBT can prevent. Like I said before, bombs and biologicals aren't defeated by SMGs and the top terrorists know that and are planning accordingly.


Oh, and each $2500 spent on SMGs means $2500 less to spend elsewhere, like on better bomb detection, surveillance and face recognition systems, etc. for these very same airports I just had to mention that to the folks who depend on the seemingly inexhaustable govt. largesse extorted from taxpayers for their paychecks. :rolleyes:

[TheeBadOne]

Which of you experts are currently working in this feild? Opinions are fine, but stating things as facts is more than a stretch. I accept that each of you have opinions. Do you?

[brownie0486]

CZ-75 : You missed the point completely sir. They are carrying the mp5sd as a deterrent and show of force as well.

There are many avenues the terrorists may persue to destroy us, one of them is the airports. Thats one of thereasons why they are there and at every major airport in Europe as well. They are all wrong and you are right. I got it now.

Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.

Your statement of "After all, why waste resources attacking a target being guarded by SMG toting JBTs when you can kill people where they live?"

makes sense and answers the quetion you pose yourself. They may just decide the airport is not a place to try another 9-11. That would certainly curtail some of the avenues of threats they pose to us wouldn't it? The answer was in your question, you just don't understand how to logically process the information apparently and need a little help, no problem, you are welcome.

Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive in lieu of that education you chose to get. I'm not sure where you went to school for your hgher educational needs but I would ask for a refund if I was you. Apparently they taught you nothing but how to be anti-establishment early on and to question at every turn others motives for their actions. It's all a big conspiracy to take something from you and be able to have it themselves. They lay awake at night thinking of ways to "F##k you, right? Tell me, do your nightmares ever go away?

Tell me, did they not offer logic 101 at the school or did you purposely avoid that semester all together? I have figured out where you went to school, not the name but the location anyways. It's to the far left of my "six".

I went to the school of hard knocks where kids like you were not tolerated and were summarily removed from amoung our ranks. Where I got my eductation, you would not have survived. How do I know you wouldn't? Based on your intelligent statements of misinformation and attitude projected here. Saw a few of that type last a day or two maybe a month. They would have been fine in the land of "milk and honey" though.

seeker_two: yiour question--"Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?"

If it has to be explained you would not undestand. Look at it this way and perhaps you can extrapolate to something in your life.
You want a glock or a jennings to protect yourself with?

Please don't say the Jennings, please don't. You see the Jennings is a firearm, but not real reliable. The Glock is just the opposite ans is ultra reliable but still a firearm. Both the same but different in how they handle the same scenarios. The only way to explain it would be to show you on a line one day. If you don't know now, it may not ever be known by you until you pick up the hardware in question and experience it for yourself.

Brownie

[CZ-75]

They are carrying the mp5sd as a deterrent and show of force as well.

That may be so, but for whom? I say so that citizens FEEL safe.

There are many avenues the terrorists may persue to destroy us, one of them is the airports. Thats one of thereasons why they are there and at every major airport in Europe as well. They are all wrong and you are right. I got it now.

Look up "Frankfurt" and "Rome" to see how effective the issue of SMGs to eurocops has been.

Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.

No, because they are wasted, often on feel-good nonsense like this.

They may just decide the airport is not a place to try another 9-11. That would certainly curtail some of the avenues of threats they pose to us wouldn't it? The answer was in your question, you just don't understand how to logically process the information apparently and need a little help, no problem, you are welcome.

From such a devotee of logic as yourself, I take this as a compliment. :rolleyes:

Tell me why the terrorists didn't try to take hostages in the terminal at Logan on 9/11 rather than slip by security and just board the planes to crash them into the WTC as they obviously did? Tell me how SMGs are going to help some JBT find terrorists slipping through security? Tell me why a SMG is needed against a terrorist armed with a boxcutter?

All it seems to me that you've done is reached a false conclusion by reasoning ad hoc, ergo propter hoc .

Tell me who needs a refresher in classical logic? :rolleyes:

Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive in lieu of that education you chose to get. I'm not sure where you went to school for your hgher educational needs but I would ask for a refund if I was you. Apparently they taught you nothing but how to be anti-establishment early on and to question at every turn others motives for their actions. It's all a big conspiracy to take something from you and be able to have it themselves. They lay awake at night thinking of ways to "F##k you, right? Tell me, do your nightmares ever go away?

:rolleyes:

This sounds like you haven't been given your medication yet today.

No need to ask for my money back, since I got my education for free.

Ramble on. :rolleyes:


I went to the school of hard knocks where kids like you were not tolerated and were summarily removed from amoung our ranks. Where I got my eductation, you would not have survived. How do I know you wouldn't? Based on your intelligent statements of misinformation and attitude projected here. Saw a few of that type last a day or two maybe a month. They would have been fine in the land of "milk and honey" though.

Sounds like you need some more "eductation." :D

Starting with "logic 101." :neener:

[brownie0486]

I can't speak for terrorists and answer for their actions. It would appear they had bigger ideas from what was carried out. That would be the "logical" conclusion, which you obviously can't grasp.


I don't come to any conclusions as to why they are carrying subguns in Logan. I also do not need to know why all of the major airports in Europe feel they need them either. That they have the percieved need based on intel I'm not privy to constantly, I prefer to defer to the people who go in harms way to protect us. Though with the experience I have their actions are prudent in my opinion and so I take no issues with their expense or carrying them thusly.

Cops are JBT's in your opinion? Is this from first hand knowledge or things you read at that "far to the left learning center" you went to. School for free? I'm appalled and very upset at that. Why should you get free education and I had to pay for mine [ in blood and sweat ]. You must be one of the privledged few you rant about constantly taking advantage of their position in life. Please turn yourself around from the armchair and give yourself a big spanking.

Again, when was the last time at BenGurion ariport? You never did answer that and I'd like to know so that I can make a logical deduction as to your statement being made from the armchair or actual knowledge. Never mind, I'm sure I can figure it out for myself.

The picture gets clearer as the posts go forward.

Brownie

[CZ-75]

Cops are JBT's in your opinion?

No, but MA state troopers sure fit the bill. So do any BDU clad, SMG-toting "officers" with little understanding of posse comitatus.

I can't speak for terrorists and answer for their actions. It would appear they had bigger ideas from what was carried out. That would be the "logical" conclusion, which you obviously can't grasp.

I can grasp that SMGs didn't and won't make a bit of difference, which is where this thread started. Intelligence, which you seem to know little about, is the key to preventing terrorism, not having a JBT w/ SMG shoot it out after the fact. Hopefully, you can grasp THAT.

Is this from first hand knowledge or things you read at that "far to the left learning center" you went to. School for free? I'm appalled and very upset at that. Why should you get free education and I had to pay for mine [ in blood and sweat ]. You must be one of the privledged few you rant about constantly taking advantage of their position in life.

Tell me what major university isn't "far to the left"? You have a gift for stating the obvious.

As to "free" school, I guess grades and test scores don't count toward "earning" that education, huh? You paid for your education b/c, I assume, you had none of the above. You should ask for your money, blood, and sweat back, then. :neener:

BTW, privilege had little to do with it.

[atk]

Um... Guys, this thread's been pretty interesting to read, but the name calling really detracts...



Where I got my eductation, you would not have survived. How do I know you wouldn't? Based on your intelligent statements of misinformation and attitude projected here. Saw a few of that type last a day or two maybe a month. They would have been fine in the land of "milk and honey" though.



Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive in lieu of that education you chose to get. I'm not sure where you went to school for your hgher educational needs but I would ask for a refund if I was you.



If it has to be explained you would not undestand.



I'm sure you did, though, as a "Massad" agent, before joining the SEELs

[brownie0486]

CZ-75:

You have been right all along, I defer to your higher education

Standing tall and listing neither to the far right or left.

Brownie

[CZ-75]

I KNEW you'd come around. :D

[Sergeant Bob]

It really doesn't matter how much money we spend on weapons, training, detectors, blah, blah, blah, at airports. We cannot make them terror proof. Even if we could, what good would it do in the fight against terror? Do terrorists have an "airport/airplane gene" or something that prevents them from attacking anything else?
What if next they attack a busy mall? Sporting event? Times square? Can we harden every possible target?
What if they started going into small town grocery stores, schools, post offices, etc, and blowing themselves up/shooting people? It's not just about numbers, it's about terror. Right now most of America feels pretty safe. That could be easily changed. Look at Isreal. Ben Gurion airport is probably the most secure airport in the world. Look at how many people die in terrorist acts in spite of the security at the airport. Most people in the U.S. are not at the airport. I don't think expending so much of our limited resources on airports is going to solve the problem.

[Erik]

Terrorists like to stick with what they know. They know that a simple assault on an airline industry such as I described before would directly effect the airline industry to the tune of hundreds of milllions of dollars, that the riple effect likely climb into the billions of dollars nationally, and that the psychological effect would be, from their point of view, priceless. They also know, or should know if they are half the threat we believe them to be, they could pull it off with ease.

As for allocation of resources, depending on the airport, a handful of suicide pact shooters targeting TSA security personel and targets of opportunity would all but crash the industry. The cost? A handful of "soldiers" and their arms. Peanuts, from their point of view.

Now, pitted against that potential threat we have well intended LEOs toting pistols and batons from a variety of municiple, state, and to a limited extent federal entities. Are their shotguns and rifles locked away somewhere? Most likely. Do they do much good there? Debatably, no. Which is why we are debating.

Me, I'd like to see M4s or something similar on the shoulders of strategically placed officers. I imagine more than a few folks in Boston argued the same. But others argued against the idea, and a compromise was struck. So handy, not too terribly ominous looking, somewhat expensive but very well crafter SMGs were selected. A good compromise? Debatably, yes. Debatably, no. Which is why the debate will undoubtably continue...

---

Not to suggest that any other imaginable scenarious are less likely, just that one will be hard pressed to attach the dollar figure associated with an airline industry related attack. (It isn't like nation wide attacks on bowling alleys would have the same impact.)

[seeker_two]

brownie:

If it has to be explained you would not undestand.

The classic rebuttal of a person who CAN'T explain it (& can't spell the word "understand".)

You want a glock or a jennings to protect yourself with?

Neither. That's why I own Colts, Rugers, S&W's, a Stoeger shotgun, & a SMLE sporter THAT I DIDN'T HAVE TO SPEND $2.5K EACH ON! Heck, I probably don't have THAT much in all my shooting equipment. And it's all reliable & accurate--which must be shocking to the "tactical tupperware" types buying for LE organizations...

You see the Jennings is a firearm, but not real reliable.

I won't argue that. But I wouldn't want to be shot w/ one that just happened to work at the time, either...

You missed the point completely sir. They are carrying the mp5sd as a deterrent and show of force as well.

If show is all that matters, give them Airsoft MP5's. I'd rather they have something that shoots more than plastic BB's, but I don't see that they need $2.5K chatterguns to take a target down, either. (Unless the "show" is for the next issue of "Mall Ninja Illustrated"...)

Perhaps you should have come over to the "dark" side and learned something about logic, tactics and staying alive...

Didn't realize the bulbs were so dim over there...

P.S. You still owe me an answer...

3. Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?

[TheeBadOne]

3. Will someone explain to me what a $2.5K SMG will do better than a $500-800 carbine won't (besides looking cool & wasting ammo)?
Ok, here's one real simple thing. Sight both an AR-15 and an MP5 in at 15 yards (for critical headshots).
Now move to 3-5 yards and shoot again. The MP5 will still be smack on. The AR-15 will be 2-3 inches LOW. Why? Look at the sight system. With the high sight that's what you get. You can train for that, but it's much easier to use a platform where that's not needed. I'll never get rid of my AR, but for some situations there are better tools.

[Mark D]

By way of adding a bit of info on MP5SD's that I didn't see addressed yet...

These guns MUST use high-velocity 9mm ammo, as the SD barrel has several holes drilled in it to "bleed-off" propellant gasses so that the bullet will exit the gun at a subsonic velocity.

If you put sub-sonic cartrifges in an SD, you will have the worlds most expensive .380 carbine.

[seeker_two]

TBO: THANK YOU for a straight answer!:cool:

Now, in response, I'll remind you that we're talking about pistol-caliber semi-auto carbines. The AR-15 is .223. And I wouldn't recommend that for airports (esp. in FMJ).

Colt makes a 9mm carbine that addresses that problem. So does Ruger.

Thanks again for the response...

[brownie0486]

seeker_two: What TheeBadOne said should have answered your question, I didn't respond [again ] as I had explained it several times and nobody that kept asking would understand if they didn't already. Care to ask again?

I also own all the weapons paltforms you named and then some more, I would still take the mp5 over all of them for that detail. Course, I have the training and field experience to know the difference between them where mission statements are concerned. Right tool for the right job, not that others could not do the same thing but not as easily or as proficiently.

I wouldn't want to be shot with one as it "just happened to work" at rhe right time as well. Answered your own question in the sentence sir, the mp5's don't just "happen to work" that would be relying on luck, something I'm not prone to do when the RIGHT equipment is available.

Did I say presence was all that mattered? Not hardly, you sure do like sticking words in others mouths and stating their case to fit your needs don't you?

The dark side, ah yes, lights are dimmed, the fun begins with all the idiots in the room who want to dance? May I have the next waltz?

What makes you think I owe you anything? Is that an attitude poking through there sir?

I trained with some atf swat types one year using the m4's while at HK during entry work. The m4's slowed us down on the line with problems. The mp5's ran all day everyday for a week of continuous abuse/use. That may be one reason the others were chosen, ultra reliability.

You can't be terror proofed but you can a best effort. I have the answer to make the world terror proof but it doesn't fit in with the political correct crowd. We'll get hit again soon enough for sure, the way to stop that is to make the sand a glass parking lot, then we know we got everyone and send the message quite clearly not be bothering us again on this soil.

Brownie

[CZ-75]

Seeker,

don't push him for answers, because then he'd have to kill you, probably with a midnight raid by SEEL team 6 or using the ancient mall ninja death hold.

:D

[TheeBadOne]

Colt makes a 9mm carbine that addresses that problem.
Seeker, you still run into the 15 yard/3-5 yard sight in problem with them. (they are quite good too and have many uses).

[brownie0486]

CZ-75:

What is SEEL team 6? Do you mean the USNavy seals?
Thats the second time in this thread you have used the wrong acronym for an elite fighting unit within the navy.

Armchairs are getting a good workout lately hey boys?

Brownie

[brownie0486]

We used the 16 platform in 70 when I was younger, got a lot of boys killed as they didn't work worth crap.

That was all supposed to be solved long ago, yet in 1994 the m4's were still problem children on the line. The mp5's have no such issues and never needed to be reengineered so that they still are not reliable enough for up close and personal matters.

Ya, I know we still use them in the military, bad mistakes keep being made by them as they loathe to change.

Brownie

[CZ-75]

Brownie:

:rolleyes:

If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand - but if you did understand, I'd have to kill you. :D

At least you didn't ask about mall ninjas. ;)

[TheeBadOne]

The main problem with 15/16/m4 type long guns is fouling. When they are clean they run well. When they get dirty they are problematic. Try ones with the stainless bolt assemblies (like mine), they are even more picky (clean and lube well and often). Like I said, when cleaned and lubed properly they work well. The H&K's seem to tolerate feild conditions and neglect better. (much like a stock Glock compaired to a stock 1911).

[Boats]

Robbins said he didn't think it would be that quiet, but said the silencer feature was a key component sought by the State Police to help mute the alarm caused if the guns have to be fired inside the airport's buildings. ''If it was shot in a terminal, the report would be very soft ... and that would create less panic,'' he said.

The sound suppressor also reduces the amount of fire emitted by the barrel, Robbins said, which is important if the gun had to be fired outside on the ramps or tarmac, where a flame could set off highly flammable jet fuel.


SHHHHHH!!! Be berry, berry, qwiiet, I'm huntin' twerrowists.
http://www.hortonhqtrs.com/Clipart/Cartoons/Elmer%20Fudd/elmer_cave.gif

[seeker_two]

I wouldn't want to be shot with one as it "just happened to work" at rhe right time as well. Answered your own question in the sentence sir, the mp5's don't just "happen to work" that would be relying on luck, something I'm not prone to do when the RIGHT equipment is available.

I don't doubt the MP5's legendary reliability. But that doesn't make other brands junk, either. And the "RIGHT equipment" in this case isn't a $2.5K chattergun...:banghead:

I also own all the weapons paltforms you named and then some more...

Hope no taxpayer money went toward your collection...

Did I say presence was all that mattered?...

You missed the point completely sir. They are carrying the mp5sd as a deterrent and show of force as well.

Sounds like the "show" is pretty important...

The dark side, ah yes, lights are dimmed, the fun begins with all the idiots in the room who want to dance? May I have the next waltz?

Why not? It's your dancefloor...

What makes you think I owe you anything?

Not me, but you do owe the principal of honest discussion an answer...

You can't be terror proofed but you can a best effort. I have the answer to make the world terror proof but it doesn't fit in with the political correct crowd. We'll get hit again soon enough for sure, the way to stop that is to make the sand a glass parking lot, then we know we got everyone and send the message quite clearly not be bothering us again on this soil.

!!!FINALLY!!! Something a thinking person can agree upon...

don't push him for answers, because then he'd have to kill you, probably with a midnight raid by SEEL team 6 or using the ancient mall ninja death hold.

You're right, CZ. I don't want to have to defend the homestead against Assault Force Guppy tonight...

[brownie0486]

seeker_two:

Do yourself a favor and check out the www.folders-r-us.org site tonight. Look to the index to the left of the homepage. Then click the link "about our expert". You'll find a small bio on me with a picture of the family.

Let me know when you are ready to dance, I'd be more than happy to accomodate you, you can even lead if you like.

I'm a guppy and an old guppy at that, I still expect it will be a short dance though.

Brownie

[cordex]

It's not a thin argument, it's my money also that pays for safety concerns and implemented procedures since 9-11.
It is no concern of mine how you spend your money. It is my concern how you spend my money.
It was a wakeup call, do we not answer the phone?
A wake-up call that terrorists can hurt us even if they follow the rules we make? Which will, of course, be prevented by a few more still-in-training officers carrying mean looking subguns? Hrm.
Hey, don't like paying taxes in the US or how they are used to defend YOU? move, and quickly, please.
So, basically "Shut up and pay up or get out ... we know what is best for you. Live with it or leave."?
Cute, but no thanks.

The main problem with 15/16/m4 type long guns is fouling. When they are clean they run well. When they get dirty they are problematic.
*grin* Which is a BIG problem when you're carrying them around the airport, right Thee?

[seeker_two]

brownie:

You have a lovely family, there. And a great dog. What breed is it?

I don't think you want to dance w/ me. I don't leave a lot of toes unscathed... :D

Now, would you answer another question for me? Why do you think that the H&K MP5 is the ONLY weapon that should be considered for this duty? In a live combat zone, I'd agree (but suggest something w/ an actual rifle cartridge). But for security in Logan, I think other, less-costly, more easily deployed shoulder-fired arm would be a better choice.

Here's another question: What makes a Ruger PC-9 or Colt semi-auto 9mm carbine a poor choice for this duty?

I don't doubt YOUR personal abilities or experience. I DO doubt the wisdom of Mass. SP's spending large amounts of money on a weapon system when a less expensive version can be procured & the rest of the money spent on training. Or, as another poster stated...

Oh, and each $2500 spent on SMGs means $2500 less to spend elsewhere, like on better bomb detection, surveillance and face recognition systems, etc. for these very same airports I just had to mention that to the folks who depend on the seemingly inexhaustable govt. largesse extorted from taxpayers for their paychecks.

Waltz is over. Wanna samba now?...:evil:

[TheeBadOne]

seeker_two, you've been given quite a few answers/reasons. For the scenario the MP5 is one of the best weapons for it. I listed some reasons previously, but include 1st round hit probability, reliability (again), controlability, ACCURACY (from point blank to 100 yards).

The problem is not with the question you are asking, but the answer you are looking for. There is not one thing (as in single) that makes "it" the best weapon for that particular job, it's all the little things added up.

For a different scenario (there are lots) the AR-15 rules the roost. For others the scout bolt action scoped rifle.

For those who dispute dollars and cents, why aren't you questioning the semi-auto handguns all the LEO agencies went to? All those revolvers cost a lot of money to replace and train peope on.

When peoples lives are at risk you want good (as in the best) equipment.

[brownie0486]

seeker_two: Thanks for the words about the family. The dog is a long coated Akita, she was 10 there and 12 now. An old girl who'll be going to the happy hunting grounds soon unfortunately.

I'm sure it was not the only weapon considered for that duty, though I'm unsure what options they were actually considering. One of the main reasons I would think was because their stop teams already use them for entry/hostage rescue in this state and they have commonality by stayig with the same weapons platform. That would be a major consideration as tactical officers here are already familiar with it and have trained on it for years.

The state spent the federal money sent to support homeland security. If looked at strictly with monies needed to ramp up in training and logistics, it would probably be cheaper than having two different platforms amoungst the troops which would be a logistical nightmare in and of itself. Training costs would be extraordinary by having to duplicate training times on each weapon. I'm sure there were other reasons as well, and can guess some of it was the officers wanted the mp5's by reputation of dependability alone. Many troopers are my age and were in country as well where they were turned off by the 16 platform getting buddies killed.

A person must feel confident in their gear, I know I would not be confident with anything but the mp5 were I assigned their tasks. I can only guess many of them felt the same way.

cordex: No one person deciding how to spend your money, the gov't did that by allocating each state some of your tax dollars which you had already paid, for homeland defense.

Brownie

[Sir Galahad]

I've verbally tangled with Brownie on the knife forum and you know what? I was wrong. And I admit that. I respect Brownie a lot. He's a man of integrity and honesty and anyone who thinks he's a "wanna-be" or a mall ninja are quite mistaken. The man has BEEN and DONE and unless YOU have, too, and were there with him don't be throwing allegations that he hasn't. You don't have to believe IN what he says, but you can darn well believe WHAT he says. And you can take that to the bank.

[seeker_two]

TBO: Don't get me started on the auto-vs.-revolver debate...:rolleyes:

SG: I'm not challenging brownie's bona fides. My question is toward the need for expensive SMG's in this situation.

brownie: I'm sorry to hear about your Akita. I've lost a few dogs, and I've been close to every one.

As for this issue. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree (not as if MSP is making any decisions from this dialogue anyway.) While I have no complaint against the MP5's pedigree, I don't think it's the "$100 hammer" for this particular job. And I think that the other options are worth more consideration than have been given.

My ideal choice would have been a silenced carbine in .45ACP. There are a few AR-based versions of this that are highly accurate & powerful. 9mm & .40S&W would also be acceptable. And a lot less expensive than the MP5. There's even a company that makes a silenced .44SPL carbine based on the Deerfield design--worth checking out.

A distinguished firearms instructor once said, "Any gun will do if YOU can do." I believe the shooter (esp. w/ good training) is FAR more important than any gun you give him.

[Devonai]

With so much focus on the weapons, I sense a bit of a lack of discussion about the combat training these fine troopers have received. Specifically, how much is it? What kind of training?

As a soldier, I have a good grasp of squad-level tactics. I can command my men with a reasonable amount of skill, because that's where the majority of my training has been. We have our SOPs worked out, including hand signals and marching order. We come out on top during combat training if we are so well coordinated. The greatest flaw of the soldiers I see is communication. So often the most basic tactics of movement and fire are neglected because the leaders fail to lead. If you get one good commander who knows his job, his soldiers will follow and complete the objective. Otherwise chaos reigns and people get tagged.

This being said, what can one expect of the troopers over at Logan? A week's worth of weapons training is all well and good, but what about when the SHTF? I don't feel any safer seeing the subguns at Logan without knowing that commo, coordination, and SOP has been well worked out and practiced.

So, what kind of training have these troopers received? Are they members of a quick reaction force, or simply troopers who have been assigned to airport duty and have no specific training?

The majority of my training involves outdoor terrain, over at Devens or down at Camp Edwards. I have only had one weekend of MOUT in my three years so far so I can't claim to know the task very well. But I do know that a facility as complex as Logan requires some serious consideration.

[Boats]

This thread has made me glad of one thing--not living in the authoritarian Northeast. Local agencies here would be flayed mercilessly by the taxpayers for going on such a wacked spending spree no matter whose taxes were tapped for the doodads.

That these guys can buy subguns and sell it with straight faces to the people and the press in Massachusetts speaks volumes about the sheeple there.

Let's see, the MassPort authorities let Islamofascist terrorists aboard one of the planes at Logan. The response? Hmmm. MP5SDs will do the trick.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Erik]

Devonai,
I would be surprised if the officers receive anything beyond SMG basic and intermediate familiarization and marksmanship training. Unless, of course, the officers were already members of an established special responce team, which doesn't seem to be the case. (The headlines would have read "SWAT members to be deployed at Logan.")

[brownie0486]

They could have taken off from any airport and had the same results, no?

Whats this, pick on Mass. week?

Brownie

[Boats]

Whats this, pick on Mass. week?

Why not? Target rich environment and all that.

Picking on MassPort is justified by such freespending BS that really only serves as yet another indicator of how disdainful the authorities there are of how public money is properly spent.

Questions:

When was the last running gun battle at Logan? Howabout the last shooting period?

If the silencers are to avoid panic, are the envisioned terrorist attackers guaranteed to play along too with their own silencers?

For $2500 per copy with US taxpayer funds, why not buy something domestic? The chances that the MP5SDs will ever be fired in anger is only just north of zero percent.

What's in the water out there that makes everyone with a publicly funded budget such a freespending bozo? (See The Big Dig, Harbor Clean-up, The Federal Courthouse, and now the People's Airport Arsenal.)

[Sir Galahad]

My solution: Cops all grow long, droopy mustaches. All dress like Kurt Russell's Wyatt Earp in "Tombstone". Carry two S&W Schofields beefed up to chamber .45ACP and .44 Magnum Winchesters. In front of the airport is a gallows with noose. Filled on occasion with bad boys. Offer lucrative contract to roasted corn and other snack vendors for booths adjacent to gallows and tax-free cigar stand in airport to pay for police. Charge tourists $5.00 for photos of "real American cowboy cops" at souvineer stand (where you can also get miniature gallows paperweights and T-shirts that say "My Parents Saw the Hanging of A Terrorist And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt, Pard!" Have parking lot patrols on horseback.


"All of you Amereecan infidels will die! I will shoot you all like dogs!!"

"I'm your huckleberry..."

[brownie0486]

I guess 2500.00 is a lot of money to some, not to me, but then I'm from Mass and make the kind of money others in less fortuitist states just think about.

We have the best hospitals in the world, the best higher education in the world, and a few others things that others can't access but here in this state.

There is good and bad to every states position within the union.

Oh, we are target rich, thats why all the moneyed get to Bostons doctors when they have the choice.

When was the last time a swat team was needed in podunk, USA? They have the same equipment and have never been called out. They cost the taxpayers good money for their equipment and training, never been called to Marthas house with a hostage situation, but hey they might be one day and they best be prepared.

Actually Masport and the Mass state police have a very rich environment where potential is a consideration. I would think less so for other cities not on a coastline in the middle of the bible belt and corn fields.

Besides, I wasn't aware you were involved with their intelligence units and the hot line to the white house that been hooked up to the gov's office here. Several govs just got them, not all mind you but only a few, Mass. being one of those.

You don't suppose they may know something you don't do you? When the last time you were involved in coordinating their intel from other countries and privy to their needs?

I suggest without that unless you have that position you are not really in any position to determine what the states international airport needs. I don't think you could even guess what they have for intel. Or do you think you'll be reading their morning briefings in the next days paper keeping you up to speed with the latest potential threats to the ariport, Boston, and the state.

You see how you want to bash them for their actions without any understanding of their projected needs? Shows some real intelligence on your part to be second guessing something you know nothing about. Care to make another uneducated guess or unintelligent remark about something you know nothing about?

Since when do we hold our forces responsible for their actions. Who knows how they will come at us again, are you saying we should be able to control something they do before they do it.
We can control our actions, not theirs.
To state a question like that shows me what? Probably that you were trying to make your point about something you are in all liklihood unintelligent about.

Why don't the swat teams buy domestic all across the board in the US? After all, lets keep it domestic and save the money at the same time? Guess what there sir, they use the best tool for the job and I'm sure if you had the position they had you would want the best money could buy as well to save you bacon and that of civilians.

Unless you are telling me you arm yourself by price of the hardware alone, you do the same thing. Most buy the best they can afford, if they have any brains at all.

Perhaps we should have 007 carrying a jennings .25 in lieu of a walther ppk. I think "M" would be able to save a lot of money by not issuing James all those expensive gadgets he has when he could make due with less [ at the risk of his own life ]. After all, like you, he is not the one putting himself in harms way so who cares. Great attitude and thought process, gotta love the "good old boys"

Brownie

[Boats]

I guess 2500.00 is a lot of money to some, not to me, but then I'm from Mass and make the kind of money others in less fortuitist states just think about.

Well golly, when the per capita income of the rest of the United States is only some 1500 dollars a year we’ll just have to take your word for it. Wow, being a private dick affords the ability to be a public one too! Who knew?

We have the best hospitals in the world, the best higher education in the world, and a few others things that others can't access but here in this state.

Yep, ya got me der boss. Dares no institut–er–book lernin’ place outside o’ Mass dat rivals dat whats found dare.

There is good and bad to every states position within the union.

And when one is not one of the privileged few with a Massachusetts Class A firearms license, and finds himself in Massachusetts, undoubtedly one is in one of the worst positions within the union.

Oh, we are target rich, thats why all the moneyed get to Bostons doctors when they have the choice.

Yep, UCSF, University of Washington Medical Center, and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester Minnesota all have no appeal whatsoever.

When was the last time a swat team was needed in podunk, USA? They have the same equipment and have never been called out. They cost the taxpayers good money for their equipment and training, never been called to Marthas house with a hostage situation, but hey they might be one day and they best be prepared.

I don’t know exactly where Podunk is, but most of them bought their unused toys with asset forfeiture. Oregon, for one, has had the good sense to require actual criminal conviction prior to an asset forfeiture being launched, as it should be. However, all of this is a side issue. What is or is not going on in Podunk is tertiary, what the MassPort force requires suppressed German subguns for is the issue. One inescapable fact is that before the Iwannacoolgun virus struck hard and the paramilitarization of the police began in Los Angeles following the Watts riots, much simpler hardware carried the day even against the Tommy Gun equipped John Dillingers of the world.

Actually Masport and the Mass state police have a very rich environment where potential is a consideration. I would think less so for other cities not on a coastline in the middle of the bible belt and corn fields.

I happen to live on that “other” coast, with some of the busiest ports in the world, where potentialities are not met obliquely through the purchase of German subguns for the most tortured of reasons.

Besides, I wasn't aware you were involved with their intelligence units and the hot line to the white house that been hooked up to the gov's office here. Several govs just got them, not all mind you but only a few, Mass. being one of those.

Didn’t take long for the appeal to authority to appear. You wouldn’t happen to be talking about the “intelligence units” that missed only the most deadly terrorist attack ever mounted would you? I am also sure any politico with a life appointed troglodyte in the US Senate can get a hot line to a self-important governor in the name of homeland security these days.

You don't suppose they may know something you don't do you? When the last time you were involved in coordinating their intel from other countries and privy to their needs?

I must have missed the international consulting agreements that MassPort struck up with the rest of the Western intelligence community–sorry.

I suggest without that unless you have that position you are not really in any position to determine what the states international airport needs. I don't think you could even guess what they have for intel. Or do you think you'll be reading their morning briefings in the next days paper keeping you up to speed with the latest potential threats to the ariport, Boston, and the state.

Of course you would suggest that. Unless one were in a position to consult, “Hey you guys should get some silenced machineguns with that pot of federal money out there.” one would be ignored. I can guess what the CIA’s Massachusetts Field Office has for intel to give MassPort–SQUAT. Anyone can point to a historical record of machine gun wielding terrorists attacking airports in Europe over the past few decades and tell some doughnut eaters that it could happen to them.

You see how you want to bash them for their actions without any understanding of their projected needs? Shows some real intelligence on your part to be second guessing something you know nothing about. Care to make another uneducated guess or unintelligent remark about something you know nothing about?

Yep. I will bash them for their projected needs because those needs, as articulated by one of their own representatives in the press, are high smelling crapola. I can state in all confidence that I know as much about fighting terrorists in an airport with the fear of muzzle flashes setting off jet fuel fires as MassPort does–not one darn thing–their sole advantage over me is the ability to waste taxpayers’ money after having an executive level fantasy about their potential gun battles.

Since when do we hold our forces responsible for their actions. Who knows how they will come at us again, are you saying we should be able to control something they do before they do it.

No, I am only saying that if they want a silent gun battle, both sides would necessarily have to be using silencers to avoid panicking the sheeple.

We can control our actions, not theirs.

When you are only half the equation, you don’t control the situation at all at the outset.

To state a question like that shows me what? Probably that you were trying to make your point about something you are in all liklihood unintelligent about.

Just pointing out an obvious hole in their non-existent logic for buying silenced MGs. What I know is that the MassPort rationale for their toy purchase sounds unintelligent.

Why don't the swat teams buy domestic all across the board in the US? After all, lets keep it domestic and save the money at the same time? Guess what there sir, they use the best tool for the job and I'm sure if you had the position they had you would want the best money could buy as well to save you bacon and that of civilians.

Best tool? When it all boils down, it is a subjective choice as to what is the best tool. There was no T&E in the MP5SD choice, just at least two tailor-made tactical fantasies that the MP5SD fit the bill for.

Unless you are telling me you arm yourself by price of the hardware alone, you do the same thing. Most buy the best they can afford, if they have any brains at all.

If they were paying their own way you’d have a mighty fine point there. However, the money is not theirs, it’s ours. As it is public money being spent they should have cost effectiveness and domesticity in mind. By your logic, cop cruisers at MassPort should all be BMW 750il sedans, with a job effective re-upholstery of course. I smell some mighty strong BS in “let’s buy the most expensive tool capable of getting the job done” position you are advocating for public funds.

Perhaps we should have 007 carrying a jennings .25 in lieu of a walther ppk. I think "M" would be able to save a lot of money by not issuing James all those expensive gadgets he has when he could make due with less [ at the risk of his own life ]. After all, like you, he is not the one putting himself in harms way so who cares. Great attitude and thought process, gotta love the "good old boys"

Even if the choice in police small arms isn’t as stark as your contrast between Jennings and Walther, James Bond has as much CQB experience as the MassPort cops at Logan do I would wager. Since Bond is fictitious, that experience would of course be none at all. With all of the fiction surrounding the decision by MassPort to acquire their German toys I am forced to conclude that somehow Michael Moore got a consulting contract with them.

(MM to MassPort Officials: "You'll look really intimidating with these guns. I did Airsoft mock-ups with my staff and also ruled out getting the costumer from Robocop to make you look more sinister. We'll just go with the tried and true method of getting you submachineguns like they tote in Europe--they were very intimidating at Heathrow when I was there recently--if one ignores their silly hats.)

[Sir Galahad]

Speaking of hats, how about my idea? Black frock coats, gunbelts of black leather with silver trim...ya gotta love it! In adition to the gallows in the front of the airport, put Boot Hill along the runways so folks landing can see what happened to the last characters that pulled a shenanigan. Got to admit it'd have class.

"'Scuse me ma'am, I'm turrible sorry to have to do this. But we've got to check your bag and even might see your, well, ah, your squirrel covers as it were ma'am when we look into your bag. We're turrible sorry, but them's the rules."

[Boats]

Maybe they should just all be made over like this:

http://www.bruce-campbell.com/images/filmography/evil-dead-02-05.jpg

WHERE'S MY BOOMSTICK?

[brownie0486]

Why would you need T+E on mp5's? They have already become the weapon of choice by professionals all over the world.

Sounds like you are jealous about not having one yourself and they do. The again, they have a job to do which you don't. Want to put the suit on and stand a post against them [ terrorists ]? You'll get one also probably. Easy to sit and armchair when you don't have to worry about saving your butt.

And the atttitude toward LE's in general really shines through. If you have a better plan, I suggest you go to washington and state your case and plan to them. They'll surely take it seriously as you have all the qualifications and the answers.

How is one in the the worst of situations without a class a in Mass? There are states that you can't carry concealed at all, I would think they were the ones in the worse situation.

Your point about the PI work? Maybe you should try it some time, pays real good, the hours not so. Didn't you know? Everyone needs a private dick once in awhile.

Oh those are fine medical facilities you mention, not the best like I stated we have in Boston but real good. The people who can afford the best come to Boston for medical care, thats where it's at.

Most bought them with assett forfiture? Some perhaps but most come from the taxpayers. Citing one example really makes your point nationally.

No I wouldn't be talking about the “intelligence units” that missed anything. They were not in place prior to 9-11, but maybe you didn't know that. As well, it was not illegal to board a plane with a knife under four inches in blade length at that time so box cutter would have been allowed on the planes even if they had been found in the onboard luggage. They had committed no crimes in the airport to be noticed. That it happened in Boston was not Mass. or Boston or Massports fault, it could have easily been LAX or Miami or New York itself.

I earn every penny I make the hard way, dealing with the lowlifes of the world. Care to join me or would you rather sit in the armchair there commando?

Brownie

[seeker_two]

OK, brownie. Now you're starting to get waaaay out there...

Sounds like you are jealous about not having one yourself and they do.

No. I don't have a large cache of ammo that I need to get rid of quickly. Neither do I have a large, intrusive, socialistic state government that doesn't mind spending taxpayer money willy-nilly instead of practicing fiscal responsibility like most working-class stiffs have to--esp. when it comes to firearm purchases. If I did, maybe I'd have a $2.5K chattergun in every room. But I have to protect myself w/ more humble guns. And I don't think I'm any less-effectively armed. And I don't think MSP would be, either...

And the atttitude toward LE's in general really shines through.

It's not an attitude (just 3 t's there, sir) toward LEO's that is being expressed. It's an attitude toward tax-&-spend-politicians-who-spend-our-money-for-show-instead-of-taking-actions-that-really-matter MORONS that is being expressed...

Everyone needs a private dick once in awhile.

O-Kaaaay....:scrutiny:

Most bought them with assett forfiture? Some perhaps but most come from the taxpayers.

1. ASSET!
2. Exactly correct. Taxpayers. Remember us? The ones who really don't like when the government takes our money and wastes it on stupid ideas like Bosnia, nuclear reactors in N. Korea, financial aid to France & Saudi Arabia, and equipping LEO's w/ $2.5K chatterguns FOR SHOW!

As well, it was not illegal to board a plane with a knife under four inches in blade length at that time so box cutter would have been allowed on the planes even if they had been found in the onboard luggage. They had committed no crimes in the airport to be noticed.

So now that boxcutters are illegal, we have to arm our airport security with $2.5K chatterguns to prevent even ONE boxcutter from coming through (not thinking that, if every pilot had a .38SPL revolver handy, that boxcutter would mean SQUAT). Maybe have some RPG's handy in case the terrorists try to smuggle large blunt objects aboard--like books, computers, or even SUITCASES!

Now I have a few reasons to thank God that I don't have to fly or travel to Massachusetts...

[brownie0486]

seeker_two:
Not way out there, I don't have one either. My humble guns probably look just like yours. I don't feel the need to own them. Certainly like playing with them with friends who have them though.

You don't have a large, intrusive, socialistic state government that doesn't mind spending taxpayer money willy-nilly instead of practicing fiscal responsibility? Perhaps

Yes, just like you, I pay taxes. But you have such a passion as to how it is spent. Once it is taxed from you and they have it [ you do obviously surrender monies earned on your wages ], everyone wants to have a say in how its spent. You may not like this expenditure or that expenditure as it's spent, sometimes I don't like the way my tax dollars are spent either.

So who do you blame? The dems or the repubs? It goes on today and it will go on tomorrow. It ebbs and flows as to it's prone to excess and waste depending on the policy of the times.

Can't blame them for spending it when you give it to them. If you think they have enough to waste in the first place then you should be petitioning the revenuers for regress and not the people it was given to to spend as they deemed fit.

I have the same problems as you in life, I want more, they want more, with lots of waste. I have found when I spend less time letting those things agitate me I have more time to learn the system I find myself in and consequently more productive. Thats a two way street though as they make more and so do I.

Be water, not ice

Brownie

[seeker_two]

Once it is taxed from you and they have it [ you do obviously surrender monies earned on your wages ], everyone wants to have a say in how its spent.

Isn't that how a tax system in a REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC is supposed to work? And the way one does that is to elect good representatives who don't waste the money.

So who do you blame? The dems or the repubs?

I blame the politician who votes for the waste & work to make sure he doesn't do so again. The person is the focus, not the party. For example, while I tend to vote Republican (b/c more conservatives are to be found there), I will be voting AGAINST Bush & Gov. Perry (TX) in the next primary b/c I don't think they're doing the overall job well enough. I want someone in there who DOES well, and I'll work for that goal.

Can't blame them for spending it when you give it to them.

I don't GIVE it to them. They take it from me w/o my consent. If you don't believe that, just tell your payroll person & the IRS that you don't want to pay taxes anymore...:banghead:

I have the same problems as you in life, I want more, they want more, with lots of waste.

I.E. Boston Logan Airport Cops Get SMG's...

I have found when I spend less time letting those things agitate me I have more time to learn the system I find myself in and consequently more productive.

Yes. Work more. Make more money. Pay more taxes. Don't question our authority. Let us do as we wish. That's what your government wants. And it seems that they have supporters of that philosophy in Mass.

Be water, not ice

Either way, you're all wet, brownie...:neener:

[brownie0486]

seeker_two: Such an educated response. I notice you use the emoticons quite often to express your emotions here. Usually the one where the dip is banging his head against the wall. Thats exactly one of the points made here. You can bang your head all you want, that action won't change anything.

Ya, vote for the dems instead. They are your friends where arms are concerned in the public hands. You beat yourself up real good now in 2004 ya here?

Myself, I'll take the lesser of the two evils to choose from.

By working within the system, you are giving them the money, they are not taking it from you. You voluntarily agree to work, ergo you voluntarily give them the money they take. You have a choice to not work within the system, but you choose to. Therby lending credence to the notion you agree to abide by the system.
Again, if you don't like it why do you work within it's structure?

Or is it better to whine and bang that head of yours up against a wall. Ya, thats it, maybe if I hurt myself somebody will take me seriously. Okay, now, I see in lieu of you beating a dead horse you prefer to beat yourself. Self blood letting at it's best right?

Oh, I see, all these problems arose after GW was elected. The dems have never done so or to a greater extent right? Or you could be one of those 2%ers' who go with a party that may stand a chance at representing the people in this country around the year 12,000.

They aren't Boston Logan airport cops. Logan doesn't have cops. You know any major airport that supplies their own police?

You either beat the system or it beats you, and until you learn that that is the way it has always been and will continue to be you are not going to be as comfortable as you could be.

Hey, I don't like paying for all the welfare recipients who are not citizens but thems the breaks pal. I work within the system, change by voting things that I might be able to change and know the difference between idealism and reality. Something others here like yourself just can't seem to grasp apparently.

Brownie

[seeker_two]

Ya, vote for the dems instead. They are your friends where arms are concerned in the public hands. You beat yourself up real good now in 2004 ya here?

Would someone explain to brownie what a PRIMARY is? I'm afraid I'm speaking above him...

Myself, I'll take the lesser of the two evils to choose from.

Either way, you still choose evil. I prefer to keep my hands clean & my conscience clear...

By working within the system, you are giving them the money, they are not taking it from you. You voluntarily agree to work, ergo you voluntarily give them the money they take.

Just the same "doublespeak" that let the Klintons call taxes "contributions." Are you suggesting that we disaffected taxpayers conspire to break the law? Great suggestion for someone in your position. I'm sure the IRS would agree...

Or is it better to whine and bang that head of yours up against a wall.

Are you actually READING my posts before you respond? I suggest a little remediaton--start at the top & work your way back here. THEN we can pick up on the intelligent discussion...

Oh, I see, all these problems arose after GW was elected.

Like the McCain/Feingold Bill? Like immunity for illegal aliens? Like the Patriot Act (I & II)? Like "tax cuts" for people who don't pay taxes? Like kow-towing to the UN & France? Like his statements on the AWB?

(If that isn't enough, I'll add more later...)

You either beat the system or it beats you, and until you learn that that is the way it has always been and will continue to be you are not going to be as comfortable as you could be.

I'm glad you weren't in Mass. circa 1776. We'd all still speak w/ an English accent (or, in my case, a Spanish one...)

Hey, I don't like paying for all the welfare recipients who are not citizens but thems the breaks pal. I work within the system, change by voting things that I might be able to change and know the difference between idealism and reality.

So, what have you not surrendered to? I'm still working to change things...

Something others here like yourself just can't seem to grasp apparently.

One reality that I CAN grasp, though, is that MSP doesn't need $2.5K chatterguns to protect the public.

But that's OK. I realize that Mass. has surrendered to the "Big Government Is Good and Never Wrong & Deserves All Our Money" position. But don't speak poorly of the states (& people within them) who still are willing to fight for a better society...

One last emoticon: Trying to use reason & logic in this dialogue w/ you--- :banghead:

[brownie0486]

seeker_two: Good post.

Does the primary have dems and repubs? You get to prepick the representative, but it's the vote in the election that determines which ideology is in power.

" I prefer to keep my hands clean & my conscience clear..."
So you don't vote?

"Just the same "doublespeak" that let the Klintons call taxes "contributions." Are you suggesting that we disaffected taxpayers conspire to break the law? Great suggestion for someone in your position. I'm sure the IRS would agree..."

Show me what was worded that you interpreted I was suggesting breaking the law.


"Like the McCain/Feingold Bill? Like immunity for illegal aliens? Like the Patriot Act (I & II)? Like "tax cuts" for people who don't pay taxes? Like kow-towing to the UN & France? Like his statements on the AWB?"

Take it up with your representatives. BTW-If it was a dem in office you would be citing issues with them as well. So which is it, you just don't like either party?

"So, what have you not surrendered to? I'm still working to change things..."

Pray tell us how you are "working" to change things? You surrender to things in your life like all of us. You already surrender a portion of your pay. You also surrender a portion of your life while working in the system. Must be a reason you do these things, or am I to believe the tax man is at your door to pick you up and make you work everyday? You choose to surrender time, money and energy to the system.

Ted Kuzinski chose not to to these things. You on the other hand do work within the system and by so doing voluntarily surrender at least part of your freedom to the work day where Uncle takes his cut and you readily provide him with it.

"One reality that I CAN grasp, though, is that MSP doesn't need $2.5K chatterguns to protect the public. "

Well there is hope for you afterall. I was beginning to wonder if you had a grasp on reality.

"Trying to use reason & logic in this dialogue w/ you--- "

That is your perception, which has become your reality.

I really want to hear what you are doing to not surrender to the big evil establishment as you have stated. Your comment "I'm still working to change things...", ya thats the one, some examples of your work to effect change please. Specifics would be nice.

Brownie

[Tamara]

There's been quite enough duelling challenges, chest-puffing, mud slinging, condescending and insulting remarks, and other rules violations here for one thread.

Lights out.