Ballistic gelatin test results : 10mm Auto


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Brass Fetcher
April 13, 2007, 12:17 AM
Special thanks to JohnKSa for supplying the ammunition

Cartridge : Remington 180gr JHP (part # R10MM4)

Firearm : Colt Delta Elite with 5" barrel length

Block calibration : All depths corrected (From 12.5cm @ 581 ft/sec)

Shot 1 - Impacted at 1065 ft/sec, expanded to 0.669" average diameter and penetrated to 14.1" plus. The 'plus' is because the bullet exited the back of the block and penetrated ~ 4" into the polyester bullet arresting box. The bullets actual penetration should be well over 15".

Shot 2 - Impacted at 1124 ft/sec, expanded to 0.647" average diameter and penetrated to 12.7".

Shot 3 - Impacted at unknown velocity (chronograph malfunction), expanded to 0.664" average diameter and penetrated to 13.1".
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56495&stc=1&d=1176437717

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=56496&stc=1&d=1176437717

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ArchAngelCD
April 13, 2007, 01:38 AM
It seems like the 10mm is a nasty round....

Thanks for the photo and teat results.

hexidismal
April 13, 2007, 01:41 AM
Neat ! Thanks for posting.

The Law
April 13, 2007, 01:43 AM
Thanks for the results!! :cool:

I gotta get me a Glock 20!!! :evil:

atblis
April 13, 2007, 01:57 AM
Was this what everybody was voting for. I'd be curious to see some of the lighter 10mm stuff, 155gr XTP and the 135 (loaded hot).

daysleeprx
April 13, 2007, 02:03 AM
Nice stuff.

Any idea why the first shot penetrated so much? (Even though it entered the block at a lower velocity than shot #2?)

Tezcatlipoca
April 13, 2007, 02:32 AM
The scary part.


that sounds like a slow load.


We gotta get you some DT stuff.

Plink
April 13, 2007, 02:36 AM
Lower velocity will often result in greater penetration, even though the final diameter is similar. That's because the bullet doesn't expand as early during it's path. The expanded bullet acts like a parachute, slowing it down. The later expansion lets it penetrate further.

That's a trick that some of the bullet makers use to make us think a round expands great AND penetrates great, when often it does most of it's expanding later in it's travel and misses the opportunity to damage more tissue on the way through.

The opposite is also true. Loading the same bullet up faster can cause it to open larger and sooner, thus limiting it's penetration. Something the velocity addicts need to consider when picking ammo. Actual results are what matters, not paper numbers.

Brass Fetcher
April 13, 2007, 02:37 AM
I think that it has a lot to do with the method used to measure the 'average diameter' of an expanded bullet. This is done by measuring one or more of the furthest points of the jacket/core and averaging it with one or more measurements of the smallest distance across the face - that of the space between the 'petals' of the jacket. A jagged piece of lead (and some fell off when I was washing the bullets) can slightly skew the results.

I'm looking at the general performance of the three rounds to get an idea of what a light 10mm looks like (and I like what I see - go 10mm! :D )

Iggy
April 13, 2007, 08:19 AM
Thanks for the test and information.
It bears out what I have been saying for years.

I have to use it on occasion to dispatch injured wildlife and livestock.

The 10mm is what I carry everyday and the 180 JHP provides deep penetrating and effective clean one shot kills when they are needed.

corey006
April 13, 2007, 09:01 AM
Here are official gelatin results for all of the DoubleTap loads!
All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.

DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty:what:
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

Brass Fetcher
April 13, 2007, 10:59 AM
+1 on the Double Tap in 10mm. Those look like some nice numbers.

Tezcatlipoca
April 13, 2007, 05:33 PM
Look at those sexy 357 SIG and 10mm numbers.



and people wonder why those rounds are around?

atblis
April 13, 2007, 06:09 PM
I think I might be purchasing a 9mm barrel for the Witness and reaming it out to 9x25.

corey006
April 13, 2007, 08:36 PM
Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I might be purchasing a 9mm barrel for the Witness and reaming it out to 9x25.atblis


1800 fps is pretty impressive isn't it I am surprised the jacket doesn't seperate...WOW

Soybomb
April 13, 2007, 09:05 PM
I thought you were about out of the gelatin testing business?

If you do some 10mm again I'd like to see the doubletap stuff, especially the 180gr golden saber. Past that the remington jhp's are known for being a little slow, the winchester silvertips are pretty decent for factory ammo though.

pinotguy
April 13, 2007, 09:11 PM
DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

9x25 Dillon is one hell of a round. It would be cool to have one but I think it's strictly a custom proposition these days. It kind of reminds me of the .38 Casull - except (slightly) slower.

Scottmkiv
April 13, 2007, 09:13 PM
9x25 is 10mm necked down to 9mm, not just a super long 9mm like 9x23 is.

nitesite
April 13, 2007, 09:17 PM
Thank you very much for all your hard work. I'm always fascinated with this kind of information. Great job!

Shooting into water is usually a pretty harsh test on a hollow point, and certainly doesn't mirror calibrated gelatin. Water usually causes more havoc on a bullet than gelatin and is not a definitive assertion of a bullet's performance in flesh and bone, or gelatin for that matter. I would trust good gelatin tests far more than water. But I don't have the knowledge nor the ability to perform certified gelatin testing.

That being said, here is what a 10mm 180-gr Gold Dot does when fired into water @ 1185-fps from a 3.8" Glock 29.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/10mm-gold-dot-180.jpg

That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is over 1.00" of expansion and near 100% weight retention.

Damn, I love this little gun!

Brass Fetcher
April 13, 2007, 09:32 PM
You're welcome... it is my pleasure. Water is quite a good medium, like you said though, more harsh than gelatin on expanding bullets (by a small margin due to the difference in density IIUnderstandC). Down to a certain velocity, it even mimics gelatin in terms of resisting penetration. But, of course, the downside is that it is not like gelatin in the 'non-cavitating' flow regime (low bullet velocities at end of penetration).

I would like to explore the 'Real 10mm Auto' ammo more.

Plink
April 14, 2007, 03:49 PM
1800 fps is pretty impressive isn't it I am surprised the jacket doesn't seperate...WOW

The jacket on a Gold Dot is essentially just think electroplating. It's bonded to the core and can't seperate. That's a big part of why I prefer those bullets to any other that I've worked with. Not only are they usually very reliable expanders, but they hold together very well too.

Double Tap's loads have impressed me enough that I switched to them in .45ACP for concealed carry. I get more velocity from their 230 grain loads from my 3.5 inch barrel at standard pressure levels, than the other companies are getting from 5 inch barrels at +P levels! Mike McNett knows what he's doing. He has raised the bar for the entire ammo industry. It still amazes me that people will pay such high prices for Cor-Bon ammo that doesn't perform nearly as well, and operates at much higher pressure levels.

atblis
April 14, 2007, 07:30 PM
I have a 10mm Witness so as far as I can tell it is basically a matter of reaming out a 9x19 barrel. I can get a 6" polygonal barrel for it from the factory.

I figure Hornady XTPs will help with the jacket seperation issue.

possum
April 14, 2007, 09:24 PM
thanks for sharing, i like these test!

JohnKSa
April 27, 2007, 01:07 AM
Kinda disappointed in the ammo. I expected a little higher velocity from that barrel length.

Not exactly high-tech bullets either...

It should be very instructive to see the results from some better 10mm ammo for comparison.

For reference, the R10MM4 was Remington's hottest ever 10mm loading. They discontinued it not long after I bought my supply. I can't remember the exact specs, but it was supposed to be around 1200fps. Looks like that was an overly optimistic advertising claim.

Neat test and useful. I'll admit that my motives were somewhat selfish--that's what's in my nightstand gun. ;)

CPshooter
April 27, 2007, 01:31 AM
I love seeing these performance tests.... thank you to everyone who is responsible for these awesome gelatin tests!

With that being said, i realize after seeing all these ballistic tests that there really isn't much of a difference between calibers these days.

The tests done w/ the 9mm 124g +P gold dots impressed me the most. They were easily the most consistent and I loved how they looked after expansion... like perfect little razor blades. Considering the 9mm is much easier to handle in terms of recoil than the others AND the guns are usually lighter and smaller while holding more ammo, I see no reason to shoot any other caliber for self defense. I'm definitely switching to a 9mm for carry purposes. The numbers for all the bigger calibers are definitely impressive though. I'd be scared of any of the DT stuff in larger calibers...the 10mm would go right through you and make a big mess... the .45 would just straight up blow a hole in you! Scary stuff!

Soybomb
April 27, 2007, 04:28 AM
I realize after seeing all these ballistic tests that there really isn't much of a difference between calibers these days.
I'm with you there.

They were easily the most consistent and I loved how they looked after expansion.
You don't get bonus points for aesthetics, I would personally pay closer attention to crush depth, see if it reaches what you believe to be an adequate minimum, and then consider expansion.

I'd be scared of any of the DT stuff in larger calibers...the 10mm would go right through you and make a big mess... the .45 would just straight up blow a hole in you!
DT makes some deep penetrating hunting loads but they also have some gel tests showing some excellent self defense loads that are in line with proper penetrating depths. I'm not sure that their .45 loads are really deserving of that sort of hyperbole either.

JohnKSa
April 27, 2007, 02:27 PM
You don't get bonus points for aesthetics...True, but that kind of consistency is very encouraging (and impressive) when you consider what a violent process that bullet just went through. You're right in that the penetration and expansion numbers are really the "meat" of the results, so to speak :o , but I think that the very consistent results do speak to the quality of the bullet design.

What say ye John?

Brass Fetcher
April 27, 2007, 03:09 PM
John,

Thank you for asking :D .

I like bullets that look consistently the same after being removed from the medium. Not necessarily the same expanded diameter, but I have noticed that the more consistent performances have come from bullets that looked very similar and didn't have any pieces of lead/jacket sticking out at random. This is another reason that I like heavy and slow bullets vs. faster and lighter ... the stresses on the bullet from the gelatin/medium are easier to plan for (by the bullet designers), so the slower the bullet is, the less pieces of lead/jacket are removed at random, producing more consistent results.

surjimmy
April 27, 2007, 03:50 PM
You gotta love the 10mm. Great pics, if you want to see some nice 10mm's for sale go to randgfirearms.com been doing business with him since the 80's. Great guy, very honest.

Tinmancr
April 27, 2007, 10:57 PM
that makes me love 10mm even more.
not enough guns come in 10mm and the ammo is spendy.
does anyone have any comparison of similar calibers?
I forget how resistant ballistic gel is, I usually us hard stuff steel, bowling balls, paper rolls whatever is at the range.
Ooh frozen water jugs are fun, even just water.
yeah I have noticed similar results with super high velocity ammo, as opposed to slightly slower.
too fast you get weird failures and less penetration, I always like when the bullets just disintegrate.
no good data can be gleaned from that.
what all can you get in 10mm?
glock 20 is the only one I've seen.

bicyclewrench
April 28, 2007, 12:52 AM
Kimber makes a couple.

Tinmancr
April 28, 2007, 08:38 AM
that is shiny a 10mm and probably match grade but I doubt if I will ever be able to afford a kimber.
God I held one at a gun store it was the entry level plain sights everything, and yet it was still way above any 1911 style I've seen.
I think they were selling it for $800, being poor sucks.. oh well.
thanks for the help

sciether
September 22, 2009, 09:52 PM
I have a EAA witness in 10mm, bought a compensator set up for the muzzle control, but the extra length of the barrel is nice, bought it basically for my big game back up when bowhunting in the rockies, after 2 yrs of shooting this weapon, THERE IS NOTHING I would rather have at my side to intervene in big game attack, there is no other caliber for hi power, hi capacity, mine has 2-20 rounders and 2-15, the accuracy is INCREDIBLE, like all day head shots at up 100 yards.

Prosser
September 23, 2009, 01:36 AM
Glock talk has a sticky in the 10MM forum for Double Taps results, taken out of Glocks.
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"
The 10mm, with full house loads, is well above the service class pistols, and an excellent SD choice in a Glock 29, etc.

McNetts' results result in considerably more expansion then these tests, without much more penetration, except for the XTP's.

KBintheSLC
September 23, 2009, 12:44 PM
The scary part.


that sounds like a slow load.


We gotta get you some DT stuff.

It was... DT loads their 180g rounds to 1350 fps. The Remmy load shown here is ballistically closer to a .40 S&W.

Prosser
September 23, 2009, 04:46 PM
When you slow the above bullets down to .40 S&W speeds you loose quite a bit of permanent and temporary wound channel. .40 has little benefit over 9mm at this level:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"
DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

CZF
September 23, 2009, 05:44 PM
I recently shot some Double Tap 165 Gold Dots.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/10MM-3.JPG
Was able to hot the target (15 yards) in the center a few times in the
20 rounds that I fired from a standing position.

Mostly 7 and 8 ring, but still in the torso are of a human or
more likely, a black bear.

Recoil recovery was difficult with rapid fire, but no too bad with slow fire.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/WFLAME.JPG
I've done much better with the slower 180s.

Vikingsoftpaw
September 24, 2009, 06:32 AM
:d:d:d:d:d

porterdog
September 24, 2009, 07:53 PM
G29- small car, biiig motor.

You'd think it'd be hard to handle, but it's really sweet- not at all punishing even with the faster DTs.

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