[fnforme]

I went to my favorite local dealer today to price AR15's. He asked me why I didn't just buy a Beretta CX-4 Storm and save a lot of money that way. I told him i would but i didn't want to wait months. Then he shocked me by saying he already had some!

He says he has several 9mm's and .45's already, I'm not sure about the .40's, but i will find out. The guns weren't in his store, he has them in his warehouse. This is a very large, reputable dealer who has the largest percentage of law enforcement sales of any dealer in South Florida. The owner is a police officer and very honest, I highly recommend him.

The best part is the price. The dealer wasn't sure on price, but he said he's almost sure it will be between $450 and $465. I will post more info and comments once I actually handle the guns this week. He said he will have them in the shop by friday. If anyone is interested in buying one of these let me know.

my e-mail is mtroc001@fiu.edu

Thanks,
Matt

[BB93YJ]

http://www.berettaweb.com/Beretta%20CX4_Storm/CX4_3.gif

Cool looking gun.

[gun-fucious]

using the diction of the new vernacular, i say:

w00t!!!!!

:cool:

[Longbow]

$465?!!! :eek: Dang! Time to call my dealer again. :)

[nextjoe]

They'll only pay you $465 to let one of those into your house? No thanks.:D

Wait, do you mean *you* have to give *them* money to get one of those? :confused: :D

Best,
Joe

[Extremist]

He says he has several 9mm's and .45's already, I'm not sure about the .40's, but i will find out. The guns weren't in his store, he has them in his warehouse. This is a very large, reputable dealer who has the largest percentage of law enforcement sales of any dealer in South Florida. The owner is a police officer and very honest, I highly recommend him.
That is very interesting!
The best part is the price. The dealer wasn't sure on price, but he said he's almost sure it will be between $450 and $465.
RSR Wholesale (Distributer) does NOT have them in stock yet, and their COST is MORE than what you are saying your dealer quoted. I bet that is LE price only, not civilian price ($685 retail).

There is a dealer on the internet that is taking preorders for $575.

I would be very interested in getting 2 if he actually has the 92F version in stock.

Please contact me offline.

Regards,
James

[Rocko]

Dunno guys, this sounds a bit funny to me. How many "local dealers" do you know with an off-site warehouse - apparently far enough away to require nearly a week for product to arrive at their storefront?

More likely the "warehouse" is the dealer's supplier/distributor and we're dealing with some crossed wires here. The supplier probably started offering these up for sale without having any in stock yet, and the dealer is going on that information. The price seems a bit off as well - while I wouldn't expect we'd be paying retail, at least when supply catches up to the (apparently) high demand, 2/3 of retails seems much to cheap for a realistic street price...

Rocko

[Redlg155]

Hmmm...hate to be a skeptic here, but It will be good when you post that you've actually seen it in stock and either purchased or put money on one.

Good Shooting
Red

[Sandman]

Hi fnforme. Which dealer in South Florida were you referring to? Was it Ace's in northwest miami-dade? Thanks.

Sandman

[gun-fucious]

i just found a new Beretta website:
http://www.cx4storm.com

[George Hill]

OH BABY! YOUR BEAUTIFUL!




:banghead:
Why did I choose to go back to school?
Hmmm... I need 500 bucks... How did the guys in Way of the Gun make cash? Sperm Banks? How much to they give you for a sample?

[agony]

I wish these were available in .357SIG. :(

[cool45auto]

I don't want that, I need that! In 9mm of course.:p

[George Hill]

I don't want that, I need that! In 9mm of course.
That is just what I was trying to tell my wiffy.

[nemesis]

fnforme went to his gun dealer to look at an AR but came away planning to buy one of those carbines. The AR, although just .22 caliber, is a rifle and has good effect over distance. The Beretta is a carbine and shoots a pistol cartridge which is effective only at short to medium ranges. I think we have an "apples and oranges" comparison going here.

Secondly, we have yet to see if the price is actually what the dealer feels it will be but we are already doing cartwheels at the "reasonable" price quoted.

Third. Anyone dumb enough to buy a first issue, untried and unproven weapon..........please raise your hand.

[George Hill]

"Anyone dumb enough to buy a first issue, untried and unproven weapon..........please raise your hand."

*raises hand*

First, That's how weapons become Tried and Proven.
Second, Beretta is a pretty safe bet. It's not like it's a Hi-Point or a Kel-Tec.

Or would you rather read the reviews from Glossy paper written by unbiased gunwriters who were just given the guns?
:rolleyes:

[Andrew Wyatt]

*handraise*

[Snaps]

I'll stick with my AR. Besides I like my .223s and PREBAN mags:)

Damn nice looking gun though. If they start making 30 rd mags I may pick one up.

[George Hill]

I have been sitting on a couple 20 rounders just for this very reason.:D

[fnforme]

For all of you who are interested I hope to go to the dealer tomorrow to find out more and try to get a concrete price. With any luck he will already have them in his store.

I specifically asked the dealer if the price was only for LEO's and he told me that it will be the same price to everyone, LEO and civvie alike. He also said the 9mm's are the models that accept the M92 mags.

To the person who was skeptical about the dealer having a warehouse.....yes, he does have his own warehouse. This dealer is able to offer his insanely low prices because he orders in such large quantities, he doesnt want to have these guns sitting in his store where they can be robbed so he keeps them in a very secure warehouse. He told me they were in his warehouse, not the distributor's. If he says so I believe him, he also ordered 500 SIG Pro's and is able to offer them for $399 NIB with 3 mags, that's why he needs the warehouse. Not many stores are big enough to stock 500 of one gun, let alone all the others he has.


I will get back to you all as soon as possible.

[gun-fucious]

i'm sitting on a pair of 9mm 30 rounders
;)
compared to buying an HK USC and getting it modified to take 30 round mags,
or buying a 9mm AR15 upper

the CX Storm is a deal.

i'm hoping the reports of a barrel & bolt swap to chamber 45 is true

[Snaps]

so ummm which 30 rd mags would be fitting in that?:cool:

[355sigfan]

Don't waste your money on a oversized underpowed handgun rifle. Buy the AR15 in 223.
PAT

[firestar]

That Storm is the only new rifle I have seen in a long time that I really got excited about. They were smart to make it take 92 mags. It looks sweet too!

[iamkris]

Thanks for that informative contribution to the discussion Pat.

<sarcasm alert off>

[gun-fucious]

some of us already have an ARFifteen and desire a pistol caliber carbine

http://store3.yimg.com/I/cdnn_1744_42764948
http://www.cdnninvestments.com/ber92eur9mm3.html

[T.Stahl]

I'd like to buy one...

...as soon as they make one that's compatible with Glock mags. :D

[Andrew Wyatt]

Don't waste your money on a oversized underpowed handgun rifle. Buy the AR15 in 223.


Wow. you must have a really interesting carry pistol if your ar-15 truck gun uses the same magazines as it.

[George Hill]

Don't waste your money on a oversized underpowed handgun rifle. Buy the AR15 in 223.

I'm sure he says the same thing about the MP-5. :rolleyes:

My new wallpaper:
http://www.cx4storm.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=43

[SodaPop]

Beretta is a pretty safe bet.


Today's date is June 17th, 2003. Beretta has been around since the year 1526AD.

That's a pretty safe company if you ask me.:)

[gun-fucious]

hello!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=329977
so how cool will these be with a threaded barrel and a vortex?

[George Hill]

You mean, how cool would those be with a nice suppressor on it...

Answer:
Very.

[natedog]

On the cover of a gun rag I saw at the book store it said that it could shoot 2" groups at 50 yards.

[355sigfan]

Wow. you must have a really interesting carry pistol if your ar-15 truck gun uses the same magazines as it.
END

In reality this is not such an advantage. My CAR15 has one 20 round mag loaded with 18 in a but stock mag pouch and another 20 round mag loaded with 18 in the well. That’s the way I have it for patrol. Plus its in a bag with 4 30 round mags loaded with 28 rounds apiece. Even if I just brab the rifle I have 36 rounds of ammo at my disposal. If I have time to dawn my raid gear I will place a 30 round mag in the gun and have 3 more on my vest. The rounds in my pistol will be of little importance. Now if I were armed with a pistol caliber carbine I would have a 15 round mag or a 20 round mag in the gun and 2 (15 round mags) on my duty belt that were there for my pistol. I would rather have the Ar15 with a just 36 rounds in its lightest load than a pistol caliber carbine with 51 rounds.

SNIP
I'm sure he says the same thing about the MP-5.
END

Not trying to offend here. The MP5 is a fun gun to shoot and one of the best sub guns made. I have had my share of trigger time on them. However I would take a M4 carbine or a G36 over an MP5 any day of the weak. Subgun are slowly moving out of tactical teams and 223 compact assault rifles are moving in to replace them. The 223 gives you better range and stopping power with less risk of over penetration. Its an all around winner. While the pistol caliber carbine leaves you with a weapon that simply increases an officers accuracy at handgun range. Thats good but it does nothing in the way of greater stopping power or greater than pistol range.
PAT

[Tamara]

I don't think anybody here is buying their rifle/carbine for a "tactical team".

[firestar]

The 223 gives you better range and stopping power with less risk of over penetration.

Are you saying that a .223 doesn't penetrate as much as 9mm or a .40 or a .45?

Where do you come by that info? Why don't you put a stack of phone books in a box and shoot it with a AR carbine chambered in .223 and then shoot a MP5 with 9mm and see which penetrates more? I have my guess.

Also, why don't you keep the 30 round mags in the carbine in case you need them? They don't stick out that much more than the 20 round mags.

[Norwegian]

Oh I`ve never seen this rifle before...I like the look of it , wonder if we can get it in Norway .


( Oh btw Tamara about your sig..the " Hurt " cover RULES..very nice GO GO Johnny )

[iamkris]

<edited to remove personal attack even though it was couched in "smilies">

A good many people buy a pistol caliber carbine because it's 1) fun to shoot, 2) like the idea of having 1 caliber between pistol and carbine, 3) itsanewgunandIwantit, 4) 3-gun carbine events 5) because I can

Not everyone is looking for the uber-tactical goblin-stopper.

[gun-fucious]

IMHO a CX Storm would make a nice carry piece for us Wookie sized folke

mayhaps a Gemtech Raptor and Bi-lock, George?:
http://www.gem-tech.com/raptor.html

[craigz]

On the cover of a gun rag I saw at the book store it said that it could shoot 2" groups at 50 yards.

And is that supposed to be good?

[SodaPop]

Where do you come by that info? Why don't you put a stack of phone books in a box and shoot it with a AR carbine chambered in .223 and then shoot a MP5 with 9mm and see which penetrates more? I have my guess.


I thought the same thing until a few months ago.

There was a thread here or on TFL (in Dec. or January) that talked about this.


The faster/higher velocity 5.56FMJ penetrates less than a 124gr 9mm because it usually fragments. Sometimes certain rounds will penetrate more at slower velocities than at higher velocities.

The 5.56 will also create a larger wound cavity but still won't penetrate as far into something.

[natedog]

No, just reporting what it said. Watch the personal atttaks, Iamkris.

[Andrew Wyatt]

In reality this is not such an advantage. My CAR15 has one 20 round mag loaded with 18 in a but stock mag pouch and another 20 round mag loaded with 18 in the well. That’s the way I have it for patrol.


For us mere mortals who cannot carry a loaded rifle in their car, it IS an advantage.

[Combat-wombat]

Do they accept M92 mags?

[cool45auto]

The 9mm version does take 92fs mags.:cool:

[starfuryzeta]

Looks like the auctions are starting to show up now.

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=9459891

[Mannlicher]

Yawn. Just another European plastic gun, and a pistol caliber carbine at that. I think I'll stick with useful guns; Make mine a Springfield M1A.

[George Hill]

A carbine that uses the same mags and ammo as your pistol IS an advantage. This is why Winchester made that famous rifle in .44-40 to go with the .44-40 revolvers. Why Cowboy shooters get 5-shooters in .45 Colt and Lever Action Rifles. Why the Army adopted the Thompson to go with the 1911. Why FN made a shouldered gun and a pistol based on the same round.
Using similar ammo makes a lot of sense. Handloaders have an easier time. Your wallet even has an easier time.
If your talking about the pistol round is at a balistic disadvantage at long range - sure your right. It is. But considering most gunfights are under 100 meters - I pistol caliber round will do just fine. And at short ranges with weapons of similar barrel lengths, I would rather have the pistol caliber.
I see this weapon as a huge advantage. And a gym bag full of mags stuffed with cheap value packed 9mm rounds from Wal-Mart... Means I can do a lot more shooting for the same amount than you can with your real he-man rifle spitting out wee little .22 pills. Hmmm... 55 grains or 147 grains? The arguements over terminal effect are a whole other subject.
With the different loads available... there are a lot of good things you can do. Including deer hunting which is something you can't legally do with your .223 rifle. But I can image a .45 Storm loaded with Hornady Custom loads would be great on white tails. Especially if you stalk the deer instead of sitting up in a stand drinking beer waiting for it to lie down in the back of your pick up.
A Storm in .357SIG would be righteous... I would love to play with one and a good chrony...
But I would still be most happy with one in 9mm... +P+ loads would be glorious... topped with a nice red dot sight... fast handling... beautiful. This type of gun might not be your ticket... but it's mine.

[Redlg155]

Looks like the auctions are starting to show up now.

Well, not actually. This is just an auction for a pre order. I think it's crazy to have an auction for a pre order when you could probably do the same at virtually any dealer.

The 9mm is a great caliber in a smaller carbine. The biggest benefit I've seen is that I can shoot it anywhere, both indoor and outdoor ranges with minimal expense. You can't do that with a .223 gun.

Good Shooting
Red

[slh02]

I agree. The biggest benefit of a pistol caliber carbine is that it can be used in an indoor range. For someone like me who gets most of his shooting done at an indoor range, they are great!

[USGuns]

Looks like a phaser... :barf:

[Combat-wombat]

Are they PRK legal?

[Dr.Rob]

It's starting to grow on me.

Do I need one? No.

Would it be cool to have one? Sure. (even cooler if BHP mags were used.. that would match my competition gun)

Not as powerful as an M-1 Carbine, spacey looking, but the full sized stock is a good thing...

I'm torn.

[Robert inOregon]

Are they PRK legal? Unfortunately, no. Gun is too dangerous for California residents. May poke someone in the eye.


Sorry to rain on everyone's parade, but the post is bogus. Due to issues with BATFE, rifle production was delayed. New projected release date is mid to late July. Price is bogus too. That is unless dealer likes to lose money. Dealer cost is going to be about $498. Dealers that pay their bills on time gets 2 points off and if purchased preseason another couple of points for anticipation. Distributors only work on seven points on firearms sales. No dealer will purchase this product direct from Beretta because its a distributor only item. Which means that the product is not a stocking dealer only item and any dealer can participate. No one gets better pricing! Beretta gives Reps twenty points off their samples. Want cheaper? Make a rep your best friend!

[Tamara]

I'm lost at high finance... :uhoh:

[iamkris]

Sure sounded too good to be true. And as momma said, if it sounds so, it probably is...

Robert -- do "point" = "percentage points"?

[gun-fucious]

for all the RKBA testimony and street theater i have expensed over the last few years, i think Beretta owes me a few points off
:)
me wonders what issues the BATF has with the gun

i hope its not the ability to use olde magazines...

[Robert inOregon]

Robert -- do "point" = "percentage points"?

Yes.

Not much money in guns. Average retailer only marks new guns ten percent. Can't think of many businesses that can make it with those small margins.

Money in this business is in ammunition, accessories and above all, used guns (trades!).

[Handy]

Is this thing made in the US? I ask because similar guns, like the SL8, had to be made so the wouldn't take preban mags.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.willsgunshop.com/
SPECIAL NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT

We have just received word that the new Beretta CX4 Storm Carbine will be available before the end of summer!

The Beretta CX4 Storm Carbine is one of the most highly anticipated firearm products of 2003. Designed to meet the needs of law enforcement, the new CX4 Storm is also excellent for sport and home defense.

It's features include:

- Fixed barrel design

- Long sight radius

- Cold hammer forged 16.6" chrome lined barrel

- Light and Compact (5-3/4 LBS, 29.7 IN overall)

- Simple, rugged and reliable semi-automatic blowback design

- Capable of tool-less field stripping

- Easily reversible cross-bolt safety, magazine button and bolt-handle

- Switchable ejection from right to left and back without tools

- Available in 3 different calibers: 9MM, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP

Due to the high demand of this firearm, we will be accepting pre-orders at our special price for a limited time only! At just $575.00, you'll be saving $100.00 off of the regular sale price.

MODELS AVAILABLE

The CX4 Storm is available in 5 configurations with 3 different calibers. The configurations vary by the type of magazine it can accept, the caliber, and thus cartridge capacity.

Configuration 1:
The first configuration is available in 9MM and accepts Beretta 92 series magazines, with a capacity of 10+1.

Configuration 2:
The second configuration is also available in 9MM, but accepts Beretta 8000 Cougar series magazines instead, with a capacity of 10+1.


Configuration 3:
This configuration uses the 40 S&W caliber and accepts Beretta 96 series magazines, also in 10+1 capacity.


Configuration 4:
Configuration 4 is the same as the above in caliber (40 S&W) and capacity (10+1), but accepts Beretta 8040 Cougar series magazines instead.


Configuration 5:
As the only configuration to use 45 Auto ammunition, it accepts 8045 series magazines with only an 8+1 capacity.

[gun-fucious]

Lord Vader your carbine awaits:
http://www.berettaworld.com/Moduli/ContentManager/publicimg/Cx4storm_IMG1.jpg

get the big picture:
http://dealer.berettausa.com/view/gp.cfm?photoid=101110&type=3

[Redlg155]

Not much money in guns. Average retailer only marks new guns ten percent.

Tell that to the dealers in my area!

They tell me they get Glocks for $390 (last I checked), but sell them for $600. I'd say that was a bit over 10%

Good Shooting
Red

[iamkris]

So the "dealer with CX4s at less than $500" is bogus. OK, I can accept that (dangit)

From the info above, it appears that the 45 version will only accept magazines with an 8 round capacity? What kind of crap is that? That doesn't even allow you to compete in 3-gun carbine events where 10 shots are required.

Anyone make higher cap 8045 mags of greater than 8 rounds?

[gun-fucious]

it would seem that there are LEO mags for the 8045

maybe in September of 2004...

anyone else get the July issue of American rifleman today?

:D

[Billy Sparks]

Okay with all of that said does this mean it does or does not accept 92FS 15 rounders?

Is this thing made in the US? I ask because similar guns, like the SL8, had to be made so the wouldn't take preban mags.

As I remember the Ruger carbine's accepted high cap mags and they were made in the US.

[Master Blaster]

An Mp5 for us poor civies, i want one!!!!!


f it can take a 10 round 92FS mag it should be able to take any other hi cap that would fit a 92FS, But it may come with a big warning stamped on the reciever that says :

"It is a Violation of Federal Law to use a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds in this rifle"

:barf: :fire: :barf:

[gun-fucious]

its a double seamer:
http://www.defensa.com/revistas/2003/marzo/images/carabina-4.jpg
hopefully this is a pre-production fit and finish


but it has been designed to use full cap magazines:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.hermumarket.es/legion/articulos/berettacx4.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3DCX4%2BStorm%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN

With a clear commercial vision, to facilitate the introduction in the police and military markets, this carbine feeds, since already there are saying, with the shippers standard on the Beretta pistols on range Full Size, facilitating with it the logistics of the buying potential.
The carbine Cx4 Storm

[Tamara]

With a clear commercial vision, to facilitate the introduction in the police and military markets, this carbine feeds, since already there are saying, with the shippers standard on the Beretta pistols on range Full Size, facilitating with it the logistics of the buying potential.

You know, I was just thinking the same thing...

It'd be a big help, as I often sit around facilitating the logistics of the buying potential. Or something. :D

[Billy Sparks]

With a clear commercial vision, to facilitate the introduction in the police and military markets, this carbine feeds, since already there are saying, with the shippers standard on the Beretta pistols on range Full Size, facilitating with it the logistics of the buying potential.

I know the words are in English but for the life of me I cannot follow that sentence. :confused:

[iamkris]

Italian to English translation problems, compounded by a technical subject (my guess)

[Tamara]

It's the same translation program that Japanese electronics firms use to print stereo instructions. ;)

[tommytrauma]

Are you saying that a .223 doesn't penetrate as much as 9mm or a .40 or a .45?

Where do you come by that info? Why don't you put a stack of phone books in a box and shoot it with a AR carbine chambered in .223 and then shoot a MP5 with 9mm and see which penetrates more? I have my guess.

Also, why don't you keep the 30 round mags in the carbine in case you need them? They don't stick out that much more than the 20 round mags.

http://www.olyarms.com/223pen.html Yup, .223 is less of a overpenetration concern than 9mm. fackler, the FBI and a bunch of others have confirmed this.

A lot of folk prefer a 20 round mag because it's easier to shoot prone with one rather than the longer 30 rounder.

[gun-fucious]

better yet

its castillian Spanish translated into English from Italian press releases!

Shipper = magazine:
The result is a universal weapon, very functional and operative.
It is so the bet of this Italian company/signature in her who already has predicted a military tactical version with selector of shot extended - with burst limited of three firings and equipped with a butt by telescope, in addition to a greater capacity of shipper.


can you say 3 round burst and telescoping stock?

[355sigfan]

Are you saying that a .223 doesn't penetrate as much as 9mm or a .40 or a .45?

Where do you come by that info? Why don't you put a stack of phone books in a box and shoot it with a AR carbine chambered in .223 and then shoot a MP5 with 9mm and see which penetrates more? I have my guess.

Also, why don't you keep the 30 round mags in the carbine in case you need them? They don't stick out that much more than the 20 round mags.
END

The 9mm bullet travels farther as the data I am about to post will show. As for the 20 round mags they fit in soft case I carry my M$ in without snagging. The 30 round mags snag. I tried using a 30 in the case but it was a no go.
PAT

Here is the info.

The Call-Out Bag
by Gunsite Training Center Staff
A Comparison of .223 Penetration vs. Handgun CalibersThe .223 shoulder-fired weapon systems (e.g., AUG, CAR) have received some recent interest as indoor tactical weapons for special operations teams. increased power, longer effective distances, and greater tactical flexibility have been cited as positive factors of the .223 systems over 9me SMG-type weapon systems. Other authors (Fackler, et all) have postulated greater capa-bility for tissue damage and incapacitation of the .223 rifle cartridge over the 9mm projectile fired from handguns or SMGs. Negative considerations for the indoor use of the .223 weapon systems focus on over-penetration of projectiles and possible subsequent liability. Our effort was made to compare the penetration characteristics of various .223 bullets to various handgun bullets fired into test barriers representing indoor and outdoor building walls. We felt that the following test might mimic shots fired from inside a building, through the internal rooms, out the exterior wall, and into another similar building nearby. A comparison of wall penetration effects by a variety of handgun calibers versus the effects of .223 FMJ ball, .223 SP, and .223 HP, under these same conditions, was expected to substantiate other findings reported or provide new information to those interested in this area of ballistics. Two interior test walls were constructed using a wood 2x4 frame with standard drywall board attached to both sides. Two exterior test walls were made using wooden frames with drywall board attached to one side and exterior grade T1-11 wooden siding attached on the other (exterior) side. R-19 fiberglass insulation batting (Dow Coming) was stapled inside the two exterior test wails. To maintain test medium consistency, no wooden cross beams, electrical fixtures, conduits, or electrical wiring were placed in any of the test walls. The test walls were placed in the following sequence to mimic shots fired from. inside a building, through two internal rooms, out the building, and into another similarly constructed building: A. Interior wall #1 was placed 8 feet from the shooting position. B. Interior wail #2 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wall #1. C. Exterior wall #1 was placed 8 feet beyond interior wail #2. (Exteri-or side facing away from the shooter.) D. Exterior wall #2 was placed 15 feet beyond exterior wall #1. (Exterior side facing toward the shooter.) All calibers tested were fired from a position 8 feet in front of interior wall #l, so the bullet trajectory would travel in sequence through each of the succeeding test walls. Each caliber tested was chronographed and all firing results were videotaped for archive files. The following results were obtained: 1. All handgun calibers exited exterior wall #1. This means they exited the "house" after passing through two interior "rooms," then entered another "house" to impact into the berm. The handgun caliber which demonstrated the least penetration was .22 LR Lightning. 2. The only calibers which did NOT exit the "house" were .223 (5.56) soft point and hollow point loaded bullets. 3. All projectiles demonstrated directional changes in their trajectory after passing through the first interior wall. The greatest directional changes (10 inches+ yaw) were shown by 9mm and .40 S&W projectiles. 4. Directional changes in bullet trajectory appeared to increase in magnitude with each test wall the projectile passed through. The penetration characteristics of projectiles have long been believed to be primarily determined by a relationship of bullet mass, bullet shape, bullet velocity, and bullet construction. The penetration differences of .223 soft point and hollow point projectiles versus the effects from .223 full metal jacket may be due to differences in bullet construction. The differential effects on penetration due to bullet construction shown with the .223 are different and appear greater in magnitude than those encountered when handgun bullet construction is modified. Since .223 projectile velocities are threefold greater than those of handgun projectiles, the increased magnitude of bullet velocity might account for the differences in bullet trajectory and penetration distance. The deviated trajectory of hollow point handgun projectiles was also greater than the deviation found with full metal jacketed handgun bullets; again, possibly due to contact point deformation. The preceding study more than ever identifies the need for a personal emphasis of marksmanship and tactical fundamentals. The shooter is responsible for the bullets that go downrange. Practice, be aware, manage your trigger, and watch your front sight! Many thanks to Jack Furr, Ron Benson, Pete Wright, and Seth NadeI, U.S. Customs, for conducting and reporting this test.
.22 LR 40 gr Lightning 899 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147gr Win JHP 948 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
9mm 147 gr Win JHP 1004 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr FMJ 941 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.40 S&W 180 gr Black Talon JHP 981 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr Win FMJ ball 867 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.45 ACP 230 gr HydraShok JHP 851 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed FMJ ball 2956 fps Exited exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Rem SP 3019 fps Captured in exterior wall #2
.223 (5.56) 55 gr Fed JHP 3012 fps Captured in exterior wall #2





ALL OF THE INFORMATION IN THIS ARTICLE IS BASED UPON THE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE OF INDIVIDUALS WHO MAY BE USING SPECIAL TOOLS, PRODUCTS, EQUIPMENT AND COMPONENTS UNDER PARTICULAR CONDITIONS AND CIRCUMSTANCES, SOME OR ALL OF WHICH MAY NOT BE REPORTED, NOR OTHERWISE VERIFIED IN THIS ARTICLE. NOTHING HEREIN IS INTENDED TO CONSTITUTE A MANUAL FOR THE USE OF ANY PRODUCT OR THE CARRYING OUT OF ANY PROCEDURE OR PROCESS. THE WRITERS, EDITORS, AND PUBLISHERS OF THIS ARTICLE ACCEPT NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR ANY LIABILITY, INJURIES OR DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF ANY PERSON’S ATTEMPT TO RELY UPON ANY INFORMATION CONTAINED HEREIN.
.223/5.56 Penetration Tests vs.
.40 S&W and 12 ga. Slug
Overview The research on the penetration of .223 ammunition has been completed. In an effort to make research more meaningful, testing consisted of handgun and shotgun ammunition in the same testing medium. The final results were that the .223 demonstrated less penetration capability than the 12 gauge slug and the .40S&W [handgun round]. Testing Medium Type 250A Ordnance Gelatin was cast into blocks, 6"x6"x16". The process used is that which is recommended by Col. M. Fackler, Director of the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. This is a 10% mixture, 1Kg of gelatin to 9000ml of H2O. This type of gelatin accurately simulates human body tissue in terms of bullet penetration. A small piece of wall was constructed to duplicate the standard exterior walls found in [the Pacific Northwest] area. This piece of wall was sheeted with ½" wafer board, covered with a 2nd piece of ½" wafer board to simulate siding. This wall was built using a 2x4 frame and finished on the inside with ½" sheet rock. The interior [of the wall] was lined with fiberglass insulation. Weapons Used CAR-15, cal .223 Rem./5.56x45mm with a 16" barrel. Glock M22, cal .40S&W. Remington 870, 12 ga. Ammunition Used Federal .223 Remington, 55 grain HP. Winchester .40S&W, 180 grain HP. Federal 12 ga., 2 ¾", rifled slug. Procedure All rounds were fired from a distance of 12 feet. After each round was fired, its penetration was recorded and bullet performance noted. After a bullet was fired into the [bare] gelatin, another bullet of the same type was fired through the section of wall and into the gelatin. This was done in order to determine its penetration potential in the event a stray round were to hit the wall of a building. Results Caliber Testing medium Penetration Condition of bullet
.223 Rem. gelatin only 9.5" two pieces
.223 Rem. wall & gelatin 5.5" * fragmented
.40S&W gelatin only 13.5" mushroomed
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&W wall & gelatin 22" * no deformation
.40S&Wâ€* wall & gelatin 19.5" * slight deformation
12 ga. wall & gelatin 27.5" mushroomed
* these measurements do not include penetration of the 6" wall. â€* CCI Gold Dot. Summary The 55 grain HP .223 has less penetration than any of the other ammunition tested. Based on the results of this testing, there appears to be no basis for concern regarding the overpenetration of the .223 [HP] round. In fact, it seems even safer in this regard than .40 S&W handgun ammunition. The hollow point cavity in the .40S&W round filled with material when shot through the wall. This caused [these bullets] to fail to expand when they entered the gelatin. As a result, they penetrated 8.5" farther than when shot directly into the gelatin. When the .223 [HP] was shot through he wall it began to fragment and as a result penetrated the gelatin only 5.5". Because the .223 [HP] begins to break up on impact, it has less potential for damage or injury than the 12 ga. in the event of a ricochet. The .223 [HP] is obviously safer in an urban environment than the 12 ga. with slugs or buckshot. Additional testing conducted proved that the .223 would penetrate a car door or glass. The .223 rounds fired into windshields began to break up after entering the glass and did not retain much energy. In most cases these rounds split in two.

[355sigfan]

I don't think anybody here is buying their rifle/carbine for a "tactical team".

END

I understand that. But why buy a firearm with less stopping power, range and with more penetration risk. I just see little to no benefit from owning one. I had a Marlin Camp Carbine I got for a song but sold for the same. It was fun but in the end I could not justify it. I could not hunt with it. For defense it was a poor choice when a 12 gauge shotgun is avaiblable. Its is definately behind the power curve when compared to the 223. The funny thing is that you mentioned tactical team. It seems that I have seem all sorts of tactical black stuff hung from this carbine in the various gun rag articles.

George. While the stopping power debate will go on long after we are both dead. What is not usually argued is the supperior stopping power of rifles to handguns. Not many people would take up the position that a good pistol caliber is even in the same ball park as the 223. But were all entitled to our opinions and we all can spend our money how we chose. Have fun with your Storm. I still left with the lingering question of why?
PAT

[George Hill]

:rolleyes:

[KelBench400]

But why buy a firearm with less stopping power, range and with more penetration risk.


Same reason we buy alot of other guns on the market. Diversification. I have an AR in .223. Does that make me want a .45 caliber carbine any less...No! Some guns are just content to be range guns and safe queens. I'm not saying that I own any (yet), but when you already have a dozen 'serious' guns I think it's safe to purchase a 'fun' gun or two.

Kel

I just see little to no benefit from owning one.

Wow, that sounds half anti. (I'm pretty sure your not) How about just because we can.

[iamkris]

Some people are very set in their ways and if a mental model doesn't fit their own, they immediately discard it.

There is diversity amongst gun-owners (diversity = lots of reasons to own / use). Mine are -- not necessarily in this order:

1) It's fun to shoot
2) Appreciation of mechanical wonder / work of art
3) For competition
4) For hunting
5) For self-defense
6) Because I can

Any or all of these (and others) are completely valid.

Let's do less in-fighting (e.g., "don't waste your time with that crap" or "as a hunter/competitor/ninja I see no reason for a hunting/competitive/ninja weapon") and more "out-fighting" against those that would take our right away...for whatever reason we choose to enjoy firearms.

[Tamara]

Hrmmm...

I kinda figured that a short, compact, light carbine that can use the stacks of Beretta 92 mags that someone has already accumulated, is easily convertible for left-hand use, can be swapped between calibers with a minimum of fuss, and won't burst your eardrums when capped off in an HD situation would be a no-brainer.

Go figure... ;)

If I had a stack of 92FS reg-cap mags, I'd be all over this thing, but as it is, it's more in the "Interesting, but only if I find a deal on a used one" category.

[George Hill]

.223 is only barely a rifle caliber.

I dont see it as any better than 9MM out of carbine length barrels.

[Tamara]

Yeah, I mean what does .223 do that 9mm doesn't at CQB distances? (I mean, other than having four or five times the energy, tumbling, fragmenting, and leaving a much larger permanent wound cavity, that is... ;) )

George, your He-Man AR Hater's Bias is showing through. ;) :p



(Not that a 9mm round or four in the right place won't get the job done just fine. It's been killing folks by the boxcar lot since 1908.)

[USGuns]

If some of you want a poor-man's MP5 then take a look at the Feather:
http://www.featherusa.com/page3.html
And that thing can be accessorized!

[Shalako]

I like it.
Is it true, though, that us Californicans can't be trusted with it? Damn, I never really saw a use for a pistol caliber carbine until now. Hmmm...
I also appreciate the dissenting opinions on these different new products. As much as I think I like this thing, what if I bought it and it royally sucked? Dissent is good. I still like it though.

[rock jock]

PAT,

To answer your question, my range will not allow rifle caliber carbines for our monthly 3-gun match. I bought a 9mm upper for my AR for that reason. Speaking of which, if a new AWB is passed, you will be limited to at most a 17-rd 92fs magazine for the Storm. More likely you will be stuck with 10-rounders for life. That would take all the fun out of a pistol-caliber carbine. That alone is a good reason to either a) wait till Sept '04 comes and goes w/o a AWB, or b) buy a 9mm upper for your AR, which can use tons of modified 25- and 32-round Uzi mags for cheap.

[SkaerE]

i'd prefer something like this...:evil:

http://www.thehighroad.org./attachment.php?s=&postid=345887

too bad...

:rolleyes: :banghead:



ahhh, photoshop and 2 minutes free time ;) - maybe less time, so dont make fun of it
:D

[355sigfan]

I dont see it as any better than 9MM out of carbine length barrels.
END

Well not too many experts on any side of the stopping power debate will agree with you on that point. But to each their own. I have owned a 9mm AR15 before. I sold the upper and mags and changed it into a 223. Have fun and stay safe my intent was not to stir up discontent.
PAT

[George Hill]

A fancy .22 will still put .22 caliber holes in you.
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END

START
All the majic hypervelocity voodoo goes away when you gut the barrel down to carbine length. Out of a carbine length barrel 9MM at least improves. Especially with the hotter +P flavors.
END AGAIN

GEORGE

[nextjoe]

Here's a wild idea... how about the people who like it buy it, and the people who don't, don't?:rolleyes:

Best,
Joe

[gun-fucious]

purdy nifty SkaerE,

check out one of my posts a few back

Beretta's doing it in 3 round burst with a suppressor and a collapsable stock

i'm kinda thinking something like the HK PDW stock:
http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm

or the MP5:
http://www.hkpro.com/mp5sd.htm

[355sigfan]

A fancy .22 will still put .22 caliber holes in you.
A 9MM will at least put a 9MM hole in you.
END


This is simply not true. A carbine length barrel of 16 inches is still producing enough velocity to do some very nasty things. Only when you get to about 12 inches or so do you run into more problems. Then it’s only at ranges greater than 100 yards. That’s an approximate figure that depends on the barrel length and ammunition used. If you’re using soft points or hollow points, as you should be, the bullets do much better further out than ball ammo does.

The 223 has enough energy to rip tissue far away from any area the bullet actually touches. The 9mm even with a velocity boost up to 357 sig levels simply cannot compete with the 223 for destructive force. Inside 100 yards 223 wounds are the equals of 308 Winchester wounds. The bullets are not magic they simply have a lot of energy and the bullet fragments and makes a mess of things. The truth is the whole put in you from the worst 223 round is still worlds ahead of the whole put in you from the best pistol rounds. With the exception of long-range shootings with SS109 there have been no complaints as to the 223 stopping power. The 223 is steadily replacing both the patrol shotgun and the SWAT Sub gun. The thought that a 9mm is somehow better than a 223 is simply not an educated one.

I do not doubt you’re a very knowledgeable man. But this is an area you need to do some more research in.

That being said, buy the Storm. Its made by Beretta I am sure its a quality weapon. I am just opposed to the concept. I see no logical reason for their existence. But if you do that’s great.
PAT

[Cato]

George Hill wrote:
All the majic hypervelocity voodoo goes away when you gut the barrel down to carbine length.

Sorry, but you don't seem quite up to date on 5.56 ammo. With the new 75gr. TAP or 77gr. OTM out of a 1/7 twist barrel, you could even go with a 11.5" barrel and a silencer and STILL get superior fragmentation to FMJ .223 ammo, much better wound ballistics than ANY pistol carbine, less recoil & noise, plus penetration of almost all wearable bodyarmor. Moreover 5.56 ammo has the least overpenetration potential when compared to handgun & serious shotgun rounds. Hornady 75gr. TAP ammo is about as hard to get as premium hollowpoint ammo, which you would need for a pistol carbine to make it effective.
True, a short barrel rifle with a silencer setup may be quite expensive, but I guess not much more than the tricked out, super custom special 1911 which lies around in a many gunowners gunsafes. It really depends how serious you want to get- a pistol carbine is fine for plinking & adding one more unnecessary item to your gunsafe, but when it comes to serious use like self defense certainly no match for a proven Ar15 style 5.56 carbine. And no, I am not anti-gun or against the fun of owning plinking guns. I just believe that owning ONE serious gun plus getting some professional training to know how to really use it, could be as much fun as a whole safe full of "fun guns".

Don't take my word or Pats advice for it, just read for yourself- I guess these threads will change your opinion:

Quote#1
"Using a reflex type suppressor, a 14.5" bbl M4 Carbine will have the same OAL as a 10.5 using a muzzle mounted can - and using the 14.5 will give you added wpn effectiveness not only is range but also in bullet performance. "Link (http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000114.html)

Quote #2
"These rounds will fragment at MUCH lower velocities than standard M193 or M855 ammunition will, making them suitable for shorter barreled rifles, or for longer distance shots. Both faired very well, and are just about equals to each other, and definitely outperformed our previous M193 experiments and the M855 data that we've seen. "Link 2 (http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=153643)

Quote #3
"The switch to pistol caliber sub-machine guns driven by this baseless overpenetration claim and mostly chambered in 9mm or even more dangerously .40 S&W or 10mm has left many CQB teams undergunned from an anti-personnel view and with weapons that actually penetrate far worse than the .223 setups they replaced in CQB environments. Of course, the manufacturers of subguns were highly complicit, happily selling 9mm subguns designed for urban CQB and then happily selling the same agencies .40 and then 10mm replacements when stoppage problems developed.
Out of anything over 14.5" .223, even FMJ, simply penetrates less after striking light building materials than heavy (124 grain and +) 9mm from 4" barrels. Tests with drywall in particular bear this out. The exceptions start with FMJ rounds over 70 grains for .223 and with 9mm rounds too light and slow to be effective (SAAMI standard pressure 115 grain HP)."
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=160320

Regards

Cato

[Tamara]

The thought that a 9mm is somehow better than a 223 is simply not an educated one.

It really depends how serious you want to get- a pistol carbine is fine for plinking & adding one more unnecessary item to your gunsafe, but when it comes to serious use like self defense certainly no match for a proven Ar15 style 5.56 carbine.

The thought that because .223 offers better wound ballistics at point-blank range, then somehow 9mm is just going to bounce off the guy is equally fallacious. From the Sten and the MP-40 to the latest MP5, it's been doing just fine out of shoulder weapons for plenty of years.

True, a short barrel rifle with a silencer setup may be quite expensive, but I guess not much more than the tricked out, super custom special 1911 which lies around in a many gunowners gunsafes.

I'm thinking that this ~$600 carbine will appeal more to owners of ~$500 Berettas than owners of multi-thousand-dollar 1911's. Not too many of them are real keen on $2,000+ aluminum rifles with an additional $400 in taxes piled on top of that, either, for that matter. ;)


Look, folks, in our breathless quest for "best", let's try and avoid tripping over "plenty good enough", okay?

[Art Eatman]

Folks oughta go back and read next joe's post.

And then read it again.

Y'all already know that with proper shot placement, a .22 rimfire is quick and permanent. Doubters can always ask the RFK family.

Art

[GooseGestapo]

I found the articles on penetration comparison interesting reads. However, the only .223 ammo tested was Mil-spec Ball, and 55gr Varmint hollow points, neither of which are designed to penetrate in SIMULATED tissue. Actually they performed quite as I would have expected from 24yrs of law enforcement experience of which 21.5 have been as a conservation officer and witnessing or inspecting gun shot wounds on various species to include Homo sapiens.

I don't have much "laboratory" testing experience, but I do know this.....
Except with FMJ-AP, the 9mm can't be expected to penetrate a L-III Kevlar vest, however the .223 will !!!
With ammunition such as 55gr or heavier soft point, the .223 is vastly a better stopper on human sized targets with fur coats on..... ie: Whitetail deer.
I have shot in excess of 20 deer with .223, make that over 50 to include the .22 Hornet.
I have shot in excess of 30 with .355-.358" diameter pistol cartridges, and that dosen't count the car-collision "put-downs", usually accomplished with .22rf or .38 semi or full wadcutters.

Conclusion: Penetration is much more dependant on bullet style and construction than caliber (diameter in tenths of an inch).
A 9mm or .357mag (or .35 Remington that that matter), loaded with a 90gr Hollow point (say the 90gr Sierra Hollow cavity) for instance, will penetrate FAR less than a 60gr Nosler Part. or 63gr Sierra, or 70gr Speer Soft point from a .223
Conversly, a Steel jacketed WWII surplus 9mm ball "SMG" round will FAR out penetrate a 35gr Hornady V-max from a .22 CF on "soft" targets such as ballistic gel.

Comparison of the two (9mm vs. .223) quickly becomes an Apples to Oranges comparison.

BTW: I still prefer the Marlin Camp Carbine to "Storm"
(to include thread content)

[Dr.Rob]

I wouldn't shoot a deer with either caliber, but there is no doubt in my mind that the 223 is more powerful than a 9mm.

If the mp5 was the best and baddest CQB shooter (and according to many it is) I don't see what all the fuss is about.

This thing, arguably a weapon of limited, err, specialized utility ends up in your collection, please let us know how it shoots.

Please. With a cherry on top.

[Coot]

Has anyone gotten one of these yet? What'd you pay for it? Range report?

Thanks!

Coot

[gun-fucious]

i kinda doubt anyone is gonna get one before this fall

The rumor mill is saying the BATF is requesting some alterations

[Schuey2002]

The rumor mill is saying the BATF is requesting some alterations.
Why? Could it have something to do with the fact that it will use "pre-bans"?

:confused:

[starfuryzeta]

Why? Could it have something to do with the fact that it will use "pre-bans"?

They probably want a 10 round fixed magazine that have to be loaded by stripper clips and a solid stock. That thumbhole stock could be cut and make it a pistol grip too easily. Can't have those things, can we. :p

[Extremist]

Well if they change it to not accept pre-ban mags, I won't buy one. Beretta would be better off if they just delayed the release until after the ban expires.

James

[George Hill]

Yup. Exactly. If it can't take my 92 mags... forget about it. Not interested.

[Larry Ashcraft]

I read somewhere the other day that Beretta will begin shipping the 9mm's this fall, with the .40 and .45 following shortly thereafter.

I think I need one in .45. ;)

[Starpower]

:confused: I would be very skeptical of this claim. Why are they in his warehouse? Rangemaster Inc just opened a new store in Chesterton Indiana, last week, and reps from Beretta USA Inc were there, stating that all the media hype was a marketing ploy, and we probably won't see any actual carbines in the stores until late August or early Sept. Rifleman magazine (NRA) article for the July issue list the MSRP at $687.00 w/o accessories. If your fav has em, I'd sure like to see one, along w/ dozens of others. Show us the green!

[fnforme]

I returned everyone's e-mails who contacted me privately about this. Sorry I didn't post a follow up.

It seems the dealer was a little overjoyed at the prospect of getting these in and turned a "possible" into a "sure thing", when in fact he didn't have anything. I wasn't trying to provoke anyone on here or start any trouble, I was just trying to pass along a good deal based on the best information I had. I cant help it if others were misleading me. At no point did I ever say that I held one in my hands.

Again, I apologize for getting anyone's hopes up. I too have talked to other dealers about this and they say expect to wait a few months, just as everyone else has posted they were told.

Sincerely,
FN

[Logistar]

9mm Storm vs. .223, huh?

Tough call.... make mine a 7.62x39! ;)

Bullet drop is between the two. Bullet diameter is between the two. Hi-caps.. NO problem! Price is likely LESS than either one. - So's the ammo!

Actually I was waiting for a Storm but got impatient and bought a SAR-1. I may still get the Storm later. I have a LOT of 9mm ammo. It would be nice to stock up on only ONE type of ammo. (9mm) YMMV.

Logistar