[quatin]

Well, I knew it would happen sooner or later, but it happened sooner due to some unforseen circumstances. I am looking for a ccw weapon, not rambo's sidearm, but a very easily concealed handgun. My priority is:

1) concealement
2) power
3) price

The weapon I have in my mind right now is the CZ-82, but only because I saw Leonardio DiCaprio use it in "The Departed". (It looks cool...) Plus it is VERY slim and nicely compact that I think I can easily hide it. I will be going to a good school in a bad city and I'd like to have the option when off campus. So...

How well suited is the 9x18mm for ccw?
How well suited is the .380 auto for ccw?
Any suggestions on more weapons similar?
What is the policy pertaining to a Texas CCW in Georgia (you can probably guess what city)?
Any other insight appreciated.

[Morglan]

My answer to your question would be a Browning (FN) Hi Power.

But I like the classics.

I pack a full sized Government Model every day. I don't feel that it is a compromise on size, power or concealability at all.

[Zundfolge]

I'd say .380 is the absolute bare minimum (if not below minimum) for CCW ... 9x18Mak is slightly better. Biggest problem with either is that they tend to be in blowback pistols so they are going to out recoil a 9x19 and tend to be in bulkier older designed pistols.

Based on the size of the CZ you could easliy be in a Kahr MK or PM or a Glock 26 or 27 (or one of several other quality subcompact pistols).

I guess you'll need to define "cost" a little more ... you should be able to find a Kahr or Glock for under $500.

[ZeSpectre]

Ignore the myth of the one shot stop. Assume that any stop will take multiple rounds of whatever ammo you choose.

If such is the case, anything .380 Auto and up -should- be able to do the trick.

Tiny - Kel-Tec P-3AT (.380 Auto)
Not so tiny - Taurus Millennium Pro series (personally I like the .40 S&W but you get whatever you like).

[quatin]

Well here's the thing. I like the feel of the SiG p226 and glock 22, but they're quite pricey in the $500+ range (I'm thinking mostly, because of hype). I was looking for something around $300, because at that range I can get a decent revolver in .357 like a Taurus 617 7 shot. I was hoping to find a lighter alternative in an auto-loader, because they tend to be slimmer and less bulky. However if there is an autoloader that's $500ish that has very important qualities then I may bump my price ceiling.

[R127]

The only thing that is going to stop a badguy is if your gun fires, you strike a vital target and your bullet penetrates deep enough to dammage that target. Nothing else.

.380 will get the job done if you can get your job done. 9x18 is better, I can have anything I want and I carry a Makarov. I used to have an MK9 for work, it was a good gun as long as you didn't have more than 500rds on the expensive recoil spring. Something I appreciate about the Makarov is I can shoot it as much as I like with no real worry about wear affecting reliability like with the Kahr. I know what the 9x18 rounds I carry are capable of and I am not worried about the slightly reduced power. The attributes of the weapon ensure that I will put my shots where they count and I even get a couple extra bullets over the Kahr.

I carry a fullsize sometimes and I love the mighty .357mag. A gun that you feel comfortable wearing that fires a cartridge you're comfortable with will get carried. A gun that is too large firing a cartridge that is too powerful or too wimpy for you to feel confident with will tend not to get carried. You'd be well served doing some practical research into the capabilities of the various cartridges you're interested in, some excellent tests have been posted here by JE223, check out The Box Of Truth, too. If possible you should do your own backyard tests as well. At any rate don't make your choice on hype or hearsay.

Depending on your style of dress, size and daily routine you may want to look into some of the larger small guns like the Glock 26, CZ RAMI or P-01. Otherwise Bersas, Kahrs and Makarovs are all good on the smaller end.

[Gunz]

I have waited and shopped carefully to find a K40 and a K9 within $360.

They are the smallest, accruate, solid frames which handle a hihg-pressure cartridge like the 9mm and 40S&W.

I think if the technology were there, James Bond would have been written in with a Kahr.

[quatin]

Thx for response guys. I did get the opportunity to shoot a fellow THR's makarov and it was a nice weapon, which is also a reason that I am leaning on the CZ-83. I will be in Georgia so the weather will be humid and hot. I don't think I will get baggy clothes the majority of the year which is why I am hard line on having something small and compact. This will probably not be the only handgun I get for ccw, since my wife is wanting to get one as well. I figured a compact, but light caliber weapon would be a good compromise so that it would fit at least one of us. If I get a full sized handgun, it will most likely be a 4'' revolver in .357 (since I've always wanted one). Does anyone CCW a 4''? Is it difficult?

[1 LT MPC]

4 inch revolvers are too bulky for me. I prefer six shot snubbies for CCW (or my Glock 23 on occasion). Packing around 30 ounces all day long is uncomfortable, plus its harder to conceal. My Kel-tec p-11 is about the right size and weight but I don't 100% trust it. Just my 2 bits worth--based on experience.

[quatin]

How is the ruger p90 in .45?

[cosermann]

Given some of the small pistols now available in 9mm there's no reason to go with a .380ACP (unless local law limits you to this) for anything unless it's a really tiny gun you're after) like the Kel-Tec P3AT (although the Kahr PM9 compares favorably even in that size). The 9x18 Mak round might be difficult to come by when you need it most (like in a disaster scenario). The Kahr CW9 is as small as the Walther and SIG P232, but fires 9mm. I find the recoil about the same.

The P90 is a sweet gun and can be carried concealed, but it's a much larger pistol and I thought we were considering something smaller in this thread.

Keep in mind, given the current technology, size and power somewhat size related. It might be helpful to determine what size and weight are within your constraints as both are elements of concealability.

As far as Texas - Georgia CCW reciprocity is concerned see this site:
http://www.packing.org/state/georgia/#thisstatehonors

[md7]

l ccw'd a glock 23 for a while, but found it a little bit bulky for me. i switched to a smith and wesson model 642. it is small enough to fit into your front pants pocket, and light enough for you to forget its there. i got mine new in the upper $300 range. I think $369.00 plus tax. if you are sold on the .380 autos, then cz makes very good stuff, also check out Bersa's .380's. they also make some quality stuff at reasonable prices.

[Mat, not doormat]

In the price range you're looking at, I don't think you can beat the various kel tec offerings. they've got the P-11, ten shot 9mm. then the new single stack 9 that's about half the width of the p-11, but about the same dimensions, otherwise. also the p-3at, in .380. tiny little bugger. if you want to spend a little more, then the kahrs are supposed to be good guns. don't under rate the carryability of a full sized gun, though, as long as it's still fairly slim. 1911s, Hi-Powers, and the other browning designs get high marks in that area. I carry a 1911, owb in a pancake style holster, and it conceals under an untucked t-shirt. it's not really light, though, so a good belt is a must for comfort.

~~~Mat

[R127]

Given some of the small pistols now available in 9mm there's no reason to go with a .380ACP (unless local law limits you to this) for anything unless it's a really tiny gun you're after) like the Kel-Tec P3AT (although the Kahr PM9 compares favorably even in that size). The 9x18 Mak round might be difficult to come by when you need it most (like in a disaster scenario). The Kahr CW9 is as small as the Walther and SIG P232, but fires 9mm. I find the recoil about the same.


Actually that isn't accurate on either count.

The pint-sized 9x19's are good options but you just don't have the parts life and in some cases even the working life of similarly sized .380's. Recoil springs are usually the first to go, after only a few hundred rounds and then reliability problems can set in. Easy enough to replace, but it can get pricey if you like to shoot your carry piece a lot.

As far as 9x18 availability, buy what you need now because there's no telling what supply will be like in the future. I bought my 7.62x39 for around 7 or 8 cents a round a few years ago when it was on sale, now look where it is, or .308 or 5.56 for that matter. More to the point you can swap your Makarov's 9x18 barrel for a .380 or have the chamber reamed out for 9.2x19 and keep on rocking.

[Exmasonite]

Well, I knew it would happen sooner or later, but it happened sooner due to some unforseen circumstances. I am looking for a ccw weapon, not rambo's sidearm, but a very easily concealed handgun. My priority is:

1) concealement
2) power
3) price


i'd throw in a number 4:

CAPACITY

sort of a trade off w/ number 1 and 2 but still something to consider.

i have a bersa .380 that i trust my life with a lot. it's a great little gun, never had a FTF/jam in 1100 rounds. personally, i go w/ federal hydrashok JHPs. i've heard some people say that expansion isn't so good, etc and to go w/ FMJ. I'll take my chances w/ the JHPs. i've got 7+1 in the gun and 9 extra in the other mag.

I do like carrying my springfield XD SC 9mm for capacity... 10+1 in the gun and backup mag of 15. gets a little thick for real casual summer carry but still manageable.

go with something you like, trust, and shoot well. for me, that's the bersa or XD.

[strat81]

Glock 26 if you can swing $500 or a Taurus Millenium Pro if you want something a little cheaper. If you want a steel gun, then a CZ 2075 RAMI.

[lee n. field]

but only because I saw Leonardio DiCaprio use it in "The Departed"

Not a good reason to get one model or another. "Looks cool" is better, a little. How well does it work?

That said, what I'm reading about the CZ-82|83 makes me think it's a not bad thing to get.

How is the ruger p90 in .45?

Big, bulky, reliable.

[cosermann]

Replacing parts that wear is part and parcel of owning any semiauto, but any of the well-designed locked breech 9 mm subcompacts is going to give the average person a service life that exceeds their lifetime and probably that of their children. Normal maintenance and service life are 2 different things.

Yes, semiautos require maintance if you're going to put thousands of rounds down range with one. That's a valid point comparing semi-autos and revolvers. I would also point out, however, that most people can easily do the maintenance of replacing springs, trigger bars and pins and such. Retiming a revolver is something most folks just can't look at a book and do in 10 minutes. If you're talking about thousands and thousands of rounds, you're going to want to replace a shotout barrel at some point. Replacing a shotout barrel on a revolver isn't a trivial task, but is fairly easy on most semi-autos.

Since the concensus on the small Kahr's is good, I'm guessing R127's experience with the MK9 was probably related to the recoil spring/assembly recall Kahr had. Maybe? The subject of that recall was a transient quality control issue that has been fixed. Mine (and a CW9) have had zero problems after thousands of rounds. If you're having problems after 3-5 HUNDRED rounds you probably have a defective gun or a poorly designed one. Don't bash all small 9 mm subcompacts because of it. It really doesn't wash.

An illustrative data point: The recoil spring on the Kahr CW9 should be replaced after 3,000 rnds. Most full-size SIGs have a suggested replacement interval of 5,000 rounds.

We could bash just about anything if we took all the quality control issues it seems many manufacturers have had in recent years and generalized them to the population. No manufacturer is immune to this. Remember Glock's recall, I mean "upgrade", in 1992? New models and rapidly growing new companies exasterbate the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I have a snubbie or 2, and they have their place. It's all about tradeoffs.

[wqbang]

In my experience, the CZ83 is very comfortable, very accurate and very shootable. I don't own one, but I do own a CZ75 Compact 9mm. You won't go wrong with the CZ83 for your purposes, however I would seriously look at a 9mm for two reasons: ammo price and relative cartridge power. The is no doubt that 9x19 is not only more powerful, but also far cheaper to shoot.

I suggest looking at a good quality compact 9mm. CZ makes a couple (the all steel CZ75B Compact is fantastic), as well as Kahr, Sig, Glock, Springfield, etc. The Kahr P9 and CW9 is a fantastic compromise in cartridge, weight, concealability, and capacity. Some people knock Kahr's reliability, but mine has been 100%.

[scurtis_34471]

I bought a Bersa Thunder .380 CC to be my "always" gun. Its small enough for pocket carry in a pair of shorts and only weighs about 18oz. Its a lot more comfortable to shoot than a Kel-Tec P-3AT. Its been 100% reliable after break-in. I have not had a single failure since the 200 round mark and I've put somewhere between 700 and 800 rounds through it. It is accurate enough for its intended purpose, although the low-profile sights suck. I put most rounds through a 3-4 inch area at 7 yards and through a 4-6 inch area at 15 yards off hand. Some of that is due to the fact that I am a relatively new shooter and am improving over time. My best friend has one and makes jagged holes at 7 yards.

Having said all that, I'm still looking for something more powerful to carry when I can get away with it.

[cosermann]

Here's an interesting physical comparison of a couple of the pistols mentioned:

Bersa Thunder 380
Height: 4.92"
Length: 6.61"
Width: 1.34"
Weight: 20 oz.
Barrel: 3.5"
Caliber: .380 ACP
Capacity: 7+1
Price: $199

Kahr CW9
Height: 4.5"
Length: 5.9"
Width: 0.9"
Weight: 17.7 oz
Barrel: 3.5"
Caliber: 9 x 19
Capacity: 7+1
Price: $399

[orionengnr]

Another Kahr fan checking in here.
My PM9 is smaller and lighter than the CW9 above, and is my "always" pocket carry.

[pax]

Don't forget to factor in the cost of ammunition for practice. With ammunition prices so high right now, I really think that plain ol' 9mm Luger is the best choice for caliber if money is at all an issue. And you're going to need to burn a lot of ammunition in practice if you take the responsibility of being an armed citizen seriously at all.

Other than that, whatever you get, make sure it fits your hands. See www.corneredcat.com/FirstGun/tryongun.aspx for more about that.

pax

[-terry]

...and Pax chimes in with another shameless plug." :D





Just kidding, Pax, corneredcat.com is one of the best sites I've see.

[mkonops]

I carry an XD40 sub compact IWB and a Seecamp LWS32 in my pocket. Both are reasonably priced, high quality, and easy to conceal. If weather/clothing doesn't permit the XD, I am absolutely confident with just the Seecamp in my front pocket.

[ozwyn]

Find a range where you can rent a few of the guns people have listed.

find a handgun that is comfortable for you, easy to shoot and accurate. Then we can second guess you on caliber, reliability, cool factor, etc.

It has to be small enough to conceal, comtrols need to be comfortable/familiar enough to effectively use, and accurate enough to hit what you're aiming at. Shot placment matters.

If you manage that, then caliber, capacity and brand become secondary concerns.

[quatin]

I've shot .22lr,.22wmr,9mm makarov,9mm luger, .45acp, .38spl and .357mag. So I thought I have covered all my bases. The only thing I'm missing might be .380acp (which i heard is like a heavier .22wmr) and .40s&w. The problem is most of the guns I fired are full sized guns. I'm 6'2 and have long fingers (compartively to what most pistols are designed for). I would just go to the range and rent the guns, but I think I may just "bite the bullet" and just buy without shooting this time. The last time I went to a place that rents guns I had to shell $90 to try 2 handguns. From all the responses I've been convinced to lean towards the 9mm luger instead. It seems like a good compromise on power and capacity especially for a compact/subcompact handgun. The CZ-75 compact and CZ rami 2075 are looking to be a good candidates. I'll go handle some of the guns suggested and follow up. Thx for responses.

[Boats]

My personal CCW breakout of factors goes like this:

1. Adequate caliber
2. Must be stone dead reliable.
3. Must be concealable without considerable work put into it.
4. Must be useable under stress.
5. Capacity/Ease of reloading.

Once upon a time, I packed a double stack 9mm and a spare mag. That was a major PITA due to width issues on both weapon and mag.

Then I moved to a Colt's Officer's model. Slimmer weapon and slimmer magazines, but it was a heavy little beast and still a pain to hide all of the time, especially in the summer.

Then a Colt's Detective Special in an ankle rig. Nice balance of size, concealability and adequate firepower. However, this option still required long pants or a belt carry, and the beautiful bluing doesn't hold up to sweat very well.

Then a Ruger SP-101. Lost a round, gained .357 power and rust resistance. Still has concealability issues.

Now, I am using a S&W 638. Still down to five shots but gained the pocket. Five shots on tap, and five more in a speed strip. Doesn't rust, and goes everywhere and hides just about anywhere I want to try it.

Of course the 638 is a compromise. It happens to be my optimal compromise at the moment. I don't have to think too hard to conceal it, so it always goes with me with no excuses. Since I am under no obligation to engage, I depend on situational awareness to make up for the lack of capacity. Five shots for multiple assailants means no double tappings. Everyone gets one sent their direction and then I run away at best speed.

If I find myself in the middle of a killing spree coming my way, I guess the tactic is to gain the best available cover and ambush the shooter(s) if gunfire comes my way. The ability to take an aimed single action shot is the reason I got the Bodyguard over the Centennial model. Firing options are nice when one can never pick the battlefield.

I have just never found a sawed off pistol that pocket carries, that I also trust as much as a good revolver in that role.

My only concern is relying on .38 Special rounds. If Smith made a Model 349 M&P tomorrow, I'd buy two of those scandium magnum J-Frames.

[cpaspr]

Since you haven't purchased yet, I'll chime in on the two calibers you haven't shot yet.

I have both of Sig's small pistols, the P232 in .380 and the P239 in .40S&W. Love em both, but the 232 is the one that gets carried most. Reason? Weight (and I don't have a decent holster for the 239 yet). They're both effectively the same size, but the 232 is light enough to just tuck and go.

The 239 is available in .40S&W, .357SIG and 9mm Luger. If you get either the .40S&W or the .357SIG, you can get an aftermarket barrel for around $200 (from Barstow and others, not from Sig) that allows you to convert it to 9x19. (The 9mm model can't go the other way though.)

Other makers' models in these calibers I can't comment on, but mine have been flawless from the start. I got the 232 used, and the 239 new. You should be able to find either used within your price range.

The 232's light weight (mine is around 25 oz fully loaded) makes it a bit snappy on the recoil, and given your size, you might suffer from slide bite, but it might be a good choice for your wife. For my particular hands, none of my other guns points so perfectly.

The 239 has plenty of power, weighs about 33 oz loaded (8 rounds of 180gr .40S&W), is small enough to conceal, and used, might be in your price range.

Both have a decocker, so can be carried with the hammer down. Should I ever really, really need it, I don't have to worry about "did I remember to take the safety off", I'll simply draw, and if necessary, pull the trigger. Just like a revolver.

My 3 cents worth.
__________

Oh, and regarding that Ruger P90 question. Nice gun, aluminum frame reduces the weight, but there are many less bulky options if you want to carry a .45ACP. And the safety (at least on mine) doubles as the decocker, so once decocked I have to remember to flip the safety back off to make it ready to fire upon drawing. In IDPA, sometimes I've forgotten. In real life, I wouldn't want to have to worry about it, so it will never be my carry gun. That, and at 5'8", I can't conceal it - too big. At 6'2", you might be able to swing it.

___________________

One other thing I just thought of. All three of the above guns (at least mine) are available in rust-resistant materials. The 232 in either stainless steel or anodized aluminum (frame) with a blued slide. The 239 is blackened stainless steel, and the P90 is aluminum framed.

[pax]

-terry,

I agree it's pathetic. :) Fact is, I hate typing. One day I noticed that 80% of everything I ever typed on any gun boards was simply repeating stuff I'd typed previously -- and most of it would be better said with pictures, anyway. Shameless plug, or more typing ... hmmmmm. Made my choice!

signed,

a lazy pax

[TonyB]

I ve a buddy who carries a P90 in the winter....it's aso the gun he shoots in idpa..never seen it malfunction.He uses an IWB holser.
He also has a Kahr(pm9 I think)that he pocket carries...it too is reliable,although I think he had some feeding issues in the beginning.
I never found carrying a full size gun to be comfortable.I prefer snubby revolvers...a smith 642 in my pocket mostly.You almost never see a used one,but new they're about $369......used revolvers for around $300 can be found j or k frames.
Taurus's Ihave fond to be good..and used ones are usually cheap.
I got a Rossi 461(2" 357) for $150....100%,but the trigger sucked in the beginning.
Small autos I'd use:Glock 26,27,Kahr pm9,40..I'd consider a Kel-tec,but I'd shoot it alot 1st and make sure it's reliable(of course we should do that w/ all carry guns)
good luck w/ the search...