After spending the afternoon tinkering with my RCBS turret press and doing dry runs with the primer feeding system, about 5:15 yesterday afternoon I made my first 10mm rounds. The hardest part was getting the Uniflow powder measure to throw just the right charge...I'd throw a charge, weigh it, adjust the measuring screw, throw another charge, weigh it, adjust as necessary. It was a bit of a pain in the back end at first, but I eventually got just the right charge. Same deal with the seater die...seat the bullet, measure OAL, adjust die, seat bullet a little deeper, a few more times. My finished product:
155-grain Hornady XTP
14.3 grains of AA#9
CCI large pistol primer
I started out with the minimum load as recommended, with one deviation from the Accurate data -- a CCI primer instead of Winchester. A chrony will be here later this week, and I should be seeing the results of my handiwork next weekend. More to come. :D :D :D :D
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April 17, 2007, 10:11 AM
Congratulations! You will feel proud once you shoot your home made ammo and see how accurate it is! Go slowly, carefully, and ensure that your processes are consistent and that you are undistracted, and you will enjoy your new hobby immensely!
April 17, 2007, 02:00 PM
Good for you. I think that you will find that you have started a great pastime which will enhance your shooting pleasure. take care.
April 17, 2007, 02:30 PM
While just pick load, why not work up the load looking for accuracy, reliability, and safety.
I would load 10 rds of several charge wts working from the max load backwards, less ten percent of the max charge wt. This way your time on the range is minimized when developing a load.:rolleyes:
Max charge with your combo is 15.9 so as you have started with the low end, why not take it in bumps of 0.3gr working towards the max powder charge. I would hand weigh the load work up charges, to avoid the frustration of tuning the powder measure...... Just a few thoughts.
I would not chrono till you have developed a safe and accurate load.....
Just sort of is self defeating.....and potentially frustrating......
April 17, 2007, 03:03 PM
Good start pistolero! I chrono most everything since I got a chrono. Just more data to research and go by. Reloading is a lot of fun. Working up a load for a new gun is much of the fun of that new gun, something non-reloaders don't get to enjoy. :)
April 17, 2007, 07:04 PM
I never had a chronograph until just recently and never really saw the need for one. However, now that I have one it is quite interesting to see how slight variation in loads affect velocity and thus repeatability. I now understand why the true reloaders who load for accuracy use a chrono, you can validate your load and find out where you load maxs out on velocity for your barrel length. If you truly want to build up accurate loads then you need a chrono to quantify your loads.
April 17, 2007, 07:14 PM
Way to go, pistolero. Excellent choice of powder. Maybe the best choice for higher velocity loads in 10mm. How did you make it? I can only think of a few guys that would have recommended it and 2 of them are on this thread! #9 meters very well and you'll get a feel for your Uniflow adjustments in fairly short order. You can always add the micrometer adjustment which will make it easier to change back and forth with different charges and calibers. For future reference, #7 is also an excellent choice for slightly less velocity than what #9 will achieve.
As far as working up loads, increasing .3 grains at a time will mean that you don't get to look at two loads in-between. You can load 10 rounds, or more at .1 grain increases. You could go to the middle of the load range by increasing .2 grains until you get to 15.1, but you'll still miss 4 loads in the process. I don't know what pistol you're using, but all things considered, you may get everything you want with a midrange load with #9, as far as accuracy, velocity and recoil.;)
April 17, 2007, 09:11 PM
Way to go, pistolero. Excellent choice of powder. Maybe the best choice for higher velocity loads in 10mm. How did you make it? I can only think of a few guys that would have recommended it and 2 of them are on this thread!
I recall reading somewhere -- I think it was on 10mmtalk.com -- that AA#9 as one of the finer powders metered well, and that was what I wanted at first. High muzzle velocity was a bonus. :D I'll probably get some 800X before it's all said and done. As for the chrony, I wanted to drive other things across it as well, so I figured I'd go ahead and get it for that too. I suppose I could have tried starting out with a hotter load, but since I am still a noob I figured I'd play it safe. Don't wanna blow up my pistol, y' know.
FYI, I am shooting a Kimber Stainless Target II. I've put mostly Federal AE through it, followed by Blazer, Remington and a couple boxes of Silvertips for good measure. It'll be nice to work up at least Silvertip-level loads and not have to pay a buck a round. :cool:I don't know what they chrono out of a 5-inch gun exactly, but I saw 1,239 fps for a Delta Elite; I figure it's about that for the Kimber too, but I dunno.
April 17, 2007, 09:45 PM
You started with AA's recommended start charge at 14.3 grains, exactly as it should be done. Before you stock up on 800-X, look at PUBLISHED load data. Some of the stuff I've seen circulating around is considerably over max and is not pressure tested, but rather, recommended by guys that were only interested in how fast they could drive a 10mm bullet. They rarely extol the virtues of the accuracy they're getting, or tell you what kind of muzzle blast they actually get. On top of that, 800-X is one of the largest flaked handgun propellants in existence. It doesn't meter well, which exacerbates the problem of hot 10mm data even more. I bet you'll find something very nice with AA#9!;)
Editing to add that I've seen some pics posted at several forums where guys had problems with the hot 800-X 10mm loads. Definite signs of overpressure were present.
April 17, 2007, 10:37 PM
I've never loaded my own 10mm Auto handloads with anything lighter than 180-gr bullets, so I cannot comment on your particular choices.
But I want to commend you for joining the brotherhood of handloaders. It sounds like you are being very cautious and that you have studied well. I got a chronograph last year and it definitely adds some greater understanding to what I am doing.
It's a great endeavor, and if you are careful you will certainly enjoy the process and the end result!!!
10mm Auto is a terrific cartridge with which to load your own.
April 17, 2007, 11:22 PM
YOUR HOOKED NOW. WAIT UNTIL YOU GO FIRE YOUR FIRST ROUNDS.
HAHHAHAH YOUR GOING TO BE HOOKED.
BEST HOBBY AROUND.
ALMOST BETTER THAN SHOOTING ITSELF. YOU WILL WANT TO GO TO THE RANGE TO SHOOT THE BULLETS YOU MAKE SO YOU CAN GO MAKE SOME MORE.
BEEN THERE DONE THAT
April 18, 2007, 08:55 AM
Before you stock up on 800-X, look at PUBLISHED load data.
The IMR site was the first place I went after I saw the reports here and elsewhere on how hot some people were loading their 10mm ammo with it. Crazy fast, as you well know. :D I know people cite it as a low pressure powder that's very forgiving -- but the data for my projectile shows a maximum load pressure of 32,700 psi compared to the max pressure of 30,000 with the max load of 800X. Which is still a good bit below the SAAMI max pressure. No matter what, I'll be keeping a good eye out for signs of overpressure and case weakening.
But I want to commend you for joining the brotherhood of handloaders. It sounds like you are being very cautious and that you have studied well.
Thanks. I am as careful as I can be...I'd like to be doing this for a long time. :D
April 18, 2007, 09:37 PM
The published data in load manuals will run higher than IMR's which is fairly conservative. I'm glad to see you check these things out! Some of the 800-X loads I mentioned are well over what you'll see in load manuals. I think some of the low pressure and forgiveness statements are misleading. Some consider 800-X to be erratic at high end pressures and the difficulty in metering is part of the issues. No doubt you've already seen some of these guys saying that they weigh individual powder charges of 800-X. Your #9 load is rated a little higher pressure wise, but if you chronograph it in comparison to the 30,000 PSI 800-X load, don't be surprised to see a significant velocity advantage with the #9 load.
Not that I intend to throw this in your particular direction. I have never seen any of this questionable data floating around at THR, I hope you don't mind me bringing the topic up to everyone reading that may see the data elsewhere.
I am pleased to see you get off to a great start and I have to admit that the fact that you're a fellow Texan only adds to the sentiment!;)
April 19, 2007, 12:06 AM
No doubt you've already seen some of these guys saying that they weigh individual powder charges of 800-X.
Yep. And the max load for AA#9 does produce a higher velocity than the max load for 800X, with both 180- and 155-grainers, so good ole No. 9 wins in at least two categories -- meters better and produces higher velocity with published load data at only slightly higher pressures. Also, I remember a discussion either here or at 10mmtalk in which somebody who seemed to know what he was talking about said that neither Buffalo Bore nor Double Tap could produce the muzzle velocities they do without going over max SAAMI spec. Maybe you could increase the room for error there with new brass, but for me that's putting the cart before the horse. I think I better get comfortable with actually shooting my reloads before I go any further than that. :D And I've gone searching for 10mm loads here and have seen some data with 800X that, from the numbers, is really riding the razor's edge....ain't ready for that yet.
Heart of Texas, would that be Waco?
April 19, 2007, 12:23 AM
Buddy, if anyone ever actually finds the heart of Texas, outside of people that live here, I think I'll be as close as anyone that claims the same thing. I'm in Brownwood. NE of San Angelo, SE of Abilene. Solid black on the US deer density map!;)
You have a long ways to go with #9. I bet you'll find something you really like a good ways before you get near max. Enjoy that 10mm, it is a great cartridge! If you're ever lucky enough to run across a used Smith 610 revolver, don't hesitate if Ben Franklin and friends are with you!;)
I have never seen any indication than Double-Tap is pressure testing it's ammo.
April 19, 2007, 09:06 AM
If you're ever lucky enough to run across a used Smith 610 revolver, don't hesitate if Ben Franklin and friends are with you!
Absolutely. I know that doesn't happen often -- at least Mr. Franklin and his friends being with me, that is. :D I am going to try to make a Dan Wesson Razorback my next 10mm; when that will be I am unsure, but we'll see. My chrono should be here sometime today; this morning I checked and my order had made it to Houston. I am in the Golden Triangle area, about 90-some-odd miles east of H-town. I know where Brownwood is but have never been there; in fact, the furthest west I've been in Texas is probably Ft. Worth, Austin and San Antonio. I'd love to change that one of these days, though right now I spend all my fun money on gun stuff. :D And I'll be off probably Sunday and Monday, so the time's drawing nearer. I was looking at Accurate's load data for .357 mag and it looks like No. 9 would be a good fit for that too, at least if you're looking to replicate factory velocities of 1400-1450 fps with the 125-grain bullet. That'll come in time too, as well as .45acp, though it'll probably be time for checking out another powder for that because there's no data for .45 with No. 9. I keep hearing that it's a better powder for magnum-type cartridges anyway, though.
April 19, 2007, 07:18 PM
I hear you on the DW. I'm lookin' I kind of like the idea of having the BoMars on the PM7, but I haven't ever used a better set of fixed sights than Novak's, so either pistol would be great. I grew up in H-Town, BTW. Been in the Golden Triangle a number of times.
You have #9 figured out pretty well and it will be too slow for .45 ACP, but your dealer probably has a number of great choices when that day arrives. #9 is my favorite powder for full power loads in .357 Magnum, the .41 Magnum as well. One thing about Accurate data. It's realistic. Many other powders that look impressive in powder manufacturers load guides will look a little different in reloading manuals and more so from your chronograph.;)
April 19, 2007, 11:11 PM
your dealer probably has a number of great choices when that day arrives.
I suppose I really should ask him what he uses for .45acp. I am pretty sure he loads that and 9mm. How is it the Accurate data is, well, more accurate -- do they test their loads in real firearms instead of just test barrels or what-not? Speaking of that, it would be interesting to see what the results of Buffalo Bore and Double Tap pressure testing would be. I've seen on 10mm Talk, it seems a few of the 1911 owners there shoot a lot of DT through their pistols as well and swear by it. I'd love to check some of that out after I get my pistol properly set up for it.
April 20, 2007, 09:44 PM
They do some testing in actual firearms, but a lot of the time they are using minimum dimension chambered ballistic test barrels. Sometimes their velocities may be slower than what you chronograph. The same guy that develops and tests data for Accurate is doing the same for Ramshot.
I'll make a recommendation for your .45 ACP loads when you get to that: Ramshot ZIP. It was the most accurate powder used by SIERRA with their 200 gr. FP Tournament Master bullet. A bullet that already has a pretty solid rep for accuracy. I talked to them a while back and asked about ZIP, and this particular load. Praise was pretty high. It has a burn rate similar to W231 and IMR 700-X. Great for target loads and still has enough performance potential to do a number of things well in .45 ACP. 230 gr. JHPs to 900 FPS as an example. It is supposed to be one of the cleanest ball powders currently available. I haven't tried it yet, but it will be the next new powder I do try.
I have had very good results with True Blue in my Ruger P-345. Most of the loads were JHPs that were faster than typical, but the cast loads have been very accurate as well.;)
April 21, 2007, 06:43 AM
Touching off the first round of your first reloads is exciting.
Seeing you hand still at the end of your arm properly functioning is just awesome. :D
April 22, 2007, 07:57 AM
It is supposed to be one of the cleanest ball powders currently available.
Very good! Speaking of that, how's AA#9 in that department? Maybe it doesn't matter much, as I usually spend 40 minutes at least cleaning and oiling after a range session, but just call it curiosity. :)
April 22, 2007, 08:19 AM
AA# 9 has been very clean for me in the .44 Mag. That's all I've shot it in. ( AA# 2, 5, & 9 all burn clean for me, have not shot any #7 ) In limited testing with Zip in the .45 it shows promise. With a light load and Berry's 230 Gr. RN the first time out they would shoot through the same hole at 7 yards. Have not tested further. Only shot 1 group. :)
April 22, 2007, 07:34 PM
I think the fair comparison would be to judge it with other powders in its burn rate group, by that standard, it's probably the cleanest. #7 is clean also. It will take 10mm velocity close to, but not quite equal to #9. I mention this because as you build warmer loads, you may find best accuracy at a more tolerable recoil level before you get to max loads and #7 will probably get you the same velocity at that point. The first handload data I saw in the late 80s pretty much established two powders as ideal for 10mm. Blue Dot and AA#7, #9 hadn't seen much use at that time and was a relatively new powder. AA#7 has maintained the excellent reputation over the years. I'm not a fan of Power Pistol. As far as I've seen, which includes night testing, the most impressive aspect of PP that I've seen is muzzle flash. Long and Bright at high pressure and that includes 9mm and .40 S&W also.
If you have #9 and #7 on the bench, you've pretty well covered 10mm loads unless you get into lighter than typical loadings where you would need a powder that isn't sensitive to powder positioning in the case because of low load density. #2 is good for that.
Ramshot Silhouette is a good 10mm powder also, but its performance range based on Ramshot data which is a carryover from Winchester's from when it was sold as WAP, is about what you'll see in factory loaded 10mm. Very low flash and good load density. I use it in .40 S&W and it performs very well. A much better alternative to Power Pistol anyway. Better data will be found in Lyman P&R III, SPEER & Sierra reloading manuals, probably Hornady's as well.;)
April 22, 2007, 07:54 PM
The first handload data I saw in the late 80s pretty much established two powders as ideal for 10mm. Blue Dot and AA#7
As of yet, the only reloading manual I have is the Speer; I think it's the 13th edition, and No. 7 and Blue Dot were both listed but No. 9 wasn't. In any event, I got my data from the the AA website, and it worked very well. Another thing I like about No. 9: it seems to be pretty big for the 10mm case — which means, in my experience, that if you throw two of those 14.3-grain charges, the case will overflow. And a single charge takes up a lot of room in it, too. I'll still be careful, don't get me wrong, but I like that little bit of a safeguard.
April 22, 2007, 08:04 PM
The same thing happens with the #7 at 9.2 grains, if you put in 2 it will definitely overflow as it is about 3/4 full with one dump with what I am doing.
I got the Richard lee modern reloading second edition book, manily because he doesn't make anything on it and it can be found pretty cheap for a hardcover.
The 10 is a great one to reload, eh?
April 22, 2007, 08:25 PM
The 10 is a great one to reload, eh?
A-yep, especially with the cost of factory ammo that's loaded down to .40S&W levels. Just yesterday I was at Gander Mountain and saw Federal American Eagle for $30 a box and I thought, "I'm glad I don't have to buy that anymore, except to get some good once-fired brass." Lol...it's what I used today. Reloading is just fun, period. I was thinking earlier that I'm gonna have to get dies for the .357 and .45ACP real soon. :D I got the Speer manual with my press; I just went ahead and sprung for the whole kit instead of buying everything separately. Won't be long till I get some more manuals, though.
April 22, 2007, 09:12 PM
Around here the only 10mm I can get is blazer aluminum at about 12.+ a box of 50 from academy. There's no 10mm brass to be had anywhere without ordering it in.
I've sold everythig except 10mm, it's all I am going to reload (or need). I'm selling the last of my .45 ammo in the for sale forum now,nothing left to shoot it with.
April 22, 2007, 09:33 PM
The hardest part was getting the Uniflow powder measure to throw just the right charge...I'd throw a charge, weigh it, adjust the measuring screw, throw another charge, weigh it, adjust as necessary.
and i thought it was just me!
April 22, 2007, 09:52 PM
yep reloading is a ball!! the part you calling a pain in the a$$ is actually my favorite part.... i like adjusting the measure and weighing the powder and then later adjusting the bullet seater and crimper just right to make great looking and shooting ammo.. welcome to a new fun hobby..... soon you won't know whether you are reloading to shoot or shooting to reload!!
April 22, 2007, 09:57 PM
soon you won't know whether you are reloading to shoot or shooting to reload!!
And Blazer is a fun way to kill time, especially for those who don't load their own, but for us handloaders that's a moot point, idn'tit?
April 22, 2007, 10:45 PM
Another thing I like about No. 9: it seems to be pretty big for the 10mm case — which means, in my experience, that if you throw two of those 14.3-grain charges, the case will overflow. And a single charge takes up a lot of room in it, too. I'll still be careful, don't get me wrong, but I like that little bit of a safeguard.
High Load Density! Definitely sound logic in high pressure rounds. I don't believe there is any reason SPEER would want to address on why #9 was omitted. Look at 9mm data and I believe that you'll find a load with #9, I know they tried it anyway, because their ballistician mentioned it once when we were discussing various powders. We had a common favorite that was discontinued because of inadequate distribution: Vectan SP-2. Silhouette data may not be in the SPEER #13 either, because the #13 manual came out when there was a transitional period after Winchester discontinued WAP and Ramshot picked it up and began selling it as Silhouette. Data may be listed as WAP.
salty squid already mentioned the density issue with #7, and AA data shows a minimum charge of 11.4 grains for the 155 gr. Hornady. I do not load any High Pressure round with any powder that will not overflow with a double charge. That includes Magnum Revolver rounds. If I want light loads, I'll shoot them in Special cases, not in magnum.
Some people don't believe there are many relative issues between rifle loading and handgun loading. I can't say I understand this logic. If you want a light rifle load you can use a fast burning powder that is not sensitive to powder positioning, like IMR SR 4759. Same thing applies to handgun cartridges with powders like TiteGroup and AA#2. For high performance Rifle hunting loads, more often than not, best performance comes with powders that give 100% load density or better while giving the accuracy and velocity required. This is often the case with handgun loads if you've selected the best available powder. Getting 100% load density is a bit tougher, but you can get close as is the case with #9 in 10mm. Maybe you have a midrange load that's very accurate in your rifle, the same thing will happen in handgun cartridges, but in either case, they're not likely to be in the top high performance range for the cartridge. I load both and after a number of years at it, I found many issues to be relative. Load density one of the best examples.;)
April 23, 2007, 06:50 AM
I do not load any High Pressure round with any powder that will not overflow with a double charge.
Sound advice indeed. It might have been discussed here at some point, but I remember a story of a guy blowing up his Colt Anaconda with a double charge of Titegroup, which apparently has a pretty low load density. As for loading for a rifle, I'll be getting into that game before long. My stepdad wants me to load him some 7mm Remington Magnum. That's ok, though...I was thinking more last night that hey, this is another reason to get more guns in different calibers, so I can load for them, tooo!! Lord help me, I think I am in real trouble now... :D
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