[Oleg Volk]

Stopped by "Reloader's Bench" on my way from work today. Was going to buy a gun for a friend. Window shopping revealed somewhat high prices and few used guns, but I loitered for a bit anyway.

Noticed a number of signs, one of which stuck in my mind: "My government paid me to kill Communist! (forget one category), illegals and Muslims. I'd do it for free!" The rest of the signs were in as good a taste.

I asked if they lose business thanks to the posters.

"I don't give a fk!"

When I mentioned that some Muslims fight for their rights, including RKBA, and that such posters offend them and their friends, I was told that there will be no debate on this. "There may be a few good trees in a forest, but we'd have to burn it down anyway!"

My suggestions to THR:

Watch what you say or write -- do not offend people needlessly, especially when you speak for the RKBA movement. That means "Kill all Democrats, Mexicans and Muslims" isn't the best way to get along with others.

Do not patronize Reloader's Bench.

[Thain]

I'm afraid that these types of gun-owners have done more harm to RKBA than a thousand Sarah Brady's... and unlike Brady, they don't have any clue that they are doing it.

9/11 and Islamic terrorists have given these types a "socially tolerable" scapegoat to vent on. Twenty years ago, they would have been posters about "The Jew."

Forty years ago, they would have been about "The Negro."

[Mannlicher]

we have reached the point where it is not in your best interest, to say anything in public that reflects your value judgements or a points of view.

oh, and thain I'm afraid that these types of gun-owners have done more harm to RKBA than a thousand Sarah Brady's... and unlike Brady, they don't have any clue that they are doing it.



That might be just a tad over the top.............

[Oleg Volk]

Last month, I introduced a Muslim family of four to small arms. I will tell them to do their gun shopping elsewhere...Guns And Leather in Greensbrier, maybe.

[Gordon Fink]

Unfortunately, Oleg, you are all too right, and quite frankly I think this is why we will eventually lose the struggle for our right to arms.

~G. Fink :(

[MikePGS]

Its unfortunate that in spite of the fact that the majority of gun owners are responsible and really just good people in general, that a small minority of people are the ones generally responsible for the impression non gun owners get of all of us.

[SpookyPistolero]

That's a pretty sad state to be in. I'm fortunate to have a shop near me that has some class. There are, sadly, other shops in town that would be worthy of the same reputation as 'Reloader's Bench'.

For my part, I don't patronize such stores, and I avidly encourage other stores to stay away as well (or rather to head towards the good places).

Acting with class in general towardes all, especially those who know that you're a shooter, is an excellent rule to follow.

[hso]

http://incommunion.org/img/pogo.png
There is no need to sally forth, for it remains true that those things which make us human are, curiously enough, always close at hand. Resolve then, that on this very ground, with small flags waving and tinny blast on tiny trumpets, we shall meet the enemy, and not only may he be ours, he may be us.

Forward!

In a diverse group you'll find folks on each end of the spectrum. On the one hand folks like Oleg and Pax and a few others that have faith in the individual's innate ability to do the right thing. On the other, those that make us all turn away in embarrassment of their association with us. The great hump in the middle is the often silent majority who by their silence allow the endpoints to represent them for good or ill. We have nothing more important than to let the rest of the world know how we want to be viewed by raising our voices and declaring clearly which side we stand on any issue.

[Henry Bowman]

I find it interesting that a gun shop would go to the trouble to post such signs (expressing their opinion on a subject) yet will not post pro-RKBA, pro-CCW, pro-women shooters, etc. posters (like yours). Do they really have no clue what's going on in the world around them? Do they really not care to increase their business? Are they really not pro-RKBA? Sadly, I believe so. :(

[Thain]

Over the top? Hardly.

Sarah Brady has swelled the ranks of the Anti-Self Defense political campaigns with millions of everyday Americans who have no direct expereince -- good or ill -- with firearms.

They don't know if the like guns or not...

They do know that they don't like ignorant, rascist, sexist, rednecks.

They think that the only people with guns are criminals and Klansmen.... and they are only to happy to send Sarah Brady another $20 to keep these yahoos from owning "dangerous assault weapons."

[Oleg Volk]

Henry Bowman,

These people aren't very bright. They just about ran me off today, and the play tends to be full of BS and smoke generally. They are close to my home, so I stopped by a few times, mainly because a friend spoke well of them. I certainly won't go back and would advise friend to avoid it (same as I advise them to avoid Gun City store).

This kind of bigotry was worse than what I saw at a Klan rally in Pulaski, back in 2003. Klansmen, at least, were very image-conscious and tried their best to look like they are "pro European culture" and not against anybody. These mental midgets actively set back the cause that we advance with so much effort.

[Thain]

I've always been tempted to round up as many woman shooters, gay shooters, lesbian shooters, transgender shooters, parapalegic shooters, black shooters, muslim shooters, sikh shooters, hispanic shooters, and asian shooters as I could find...

Dressing `em all up in Pink Pistols t-shirts, JPFO t-shirts, "Black Man With A Gun" hats... y'know, all that sort of stuff...

...and then decending on stores like these in a whirlwind of shopping madness.

And Anti-Boycott, if you will, these stores don't want folks like me to patronize them, so what better way to get back at them by forcing them to tolerate me and thirty of my closest freinds dropping by to spend some money.


Edit: It occurs to me that "Sikh Shooter," would make an excellent screen-name. Too bad I'm Catholic...

[Warren]

Thain,

Would it not be better if your whirlwind descended, collected up a bunch of product and then someone "notices" the offensive sign and then the whirlwind en masse walks out leaving 1000's of $ worth of stuff on the counter?

[obxned]

Don't forget the 1st Amendment in your enthusiasm to protect the 2nd.

[budney]

I definitely advocate voting with our feet. One of the freedom's of the free market is to spend our money where we please, and that can include where it will do the most good. Clean, reputable stores with helpful, respectful employees do us all credit. Shops with rude, bigoted employees selling "Blast the Towelhead!" targets do us all a disservice.

--Len.

[phreeq]

Thain: I love that idea!

Warren: That's just evil...brilliant! :evil:

obxned: They have the right to display anything they want...and Oleg (and others) have the right to spend their money elsewhere. :)

[Daniel T]

The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with a private citizen deciding to not give his money to racist pieces of garbage.

The 1st Amendment has nothing to do with said citizen telling everyone he knows about why he isn't giving those racist pieces of garbage his money.

[alan]

Re our own worst enemies, how many times have readers seen or heard something along the following lines.

Let's give "them" something. Let's be "reasonable". Who needs "those things", fill in the blank. I shoot skeet or trap or National Match Course Rifle, or Cowboy actiion, complete or add to the list as you like, and I see no reason for anyone to have any of those things, the ones that my chosen activity doesn't require, yours might but this is ME. The really sad thing about the foregoing is that we hear this sort of rubbish from our fellow gun owners.

What puzzles me is the following. Given that we all share a dangerous world, how did such dummies survive to adulthood?

[MD_Willington]

YES...

I have one co-worker who is a shooter, she shoots .22LR match. She asked if I was into the same thing, I'm pretty diverse about what I'll shoot and I told her anything, I like them all. I even explained that I shot pistols as well, she then went on about how pistols were dangerous and she was afraid they would just go off :scrutiny:

Not an extreme example, but even the small examples hurt us all.

[gcerbone]

Bigots are bigots. Doesn't matter whether they are bigoted against muslims, or against gunnies. That guy has more in common with the antis then with us. And yes, it does make us look bad.

[dadman]

This thread reminds me of some of the hats, shirts, mugs you see at gun shoots, gun shows and firearms shops with "kill" themes, undocumented qoutes repeated as truth, Nazi images, etc.

[dadman]

Happy face with bullet hole in forehead, exit hole back of shirt.
"Kill 'em all..."
WWII SS Divisions World Tour shirts, made to look like band tour shirts.
Blah, blah, blah,

Keep it neat, simple, intellegent, polite.

[Shadan7]

And there's another aspect to this "we're our own worst enemy" stuff, which has caused me to just give up on some gun forums: hatin' on the 'liberals'.

I just spent much of the last 24 hours arguing at considerable length with anti's over on Daily Kos. Yeah, *that* evil site. Why? Because I am a liberal - and a gun owner of 40 years. The way I (and a lot of other liberals/progressives - there's a substantial number of us over there) see it, supporting the 2nd Amendment is right up there with supporting all the others, and that is part and parcel of my understanding of my politics.

Yet I show up here, and the first thing I see on the queue is a thread about how all 'liberals' are evil. Thanks, guys, makes me really feel at home here with the other gunnies.

I've said it before, and I'll undoubtably have to say it again: being pro-RKBA isn't about being a Dem, a Repub, a Libertarian, or whatever - it's about being pro-RKBA. We make alliances on this issue across all party lines, and we win. We keep demonizing someone who disagrees about other policies, and we lose. It's that simple. Sure, I'll be happy to argue about other political issues until I am blue(r) in the face. But let's win this, OK?

7

[Eleven Mike]

Oleg, why do you hate America? You must be one of them illegal Muslim commie immigrants. :neener:

[travis87]

"Bigots are bigots. Doesn't matter whether they are bigoted against muslims, or against gunnies. That guy has more in common with the antis then with us. And yes, it does make us look bad."

The first sentence captures it all. It doesn't just make gun owners look bad, it makes Americans look bad, it simply makes the human race look bad. I don't see the need for pointless hate and bigotry like that.

[helpless]

Oleg, Why do you hate America?

:rolleyes:

Kidding of course.

You are so right. Everytime I hear a gun store guy/girl, range guy/girl, gun show guy/girl, talk like this, I get sick. :barf:

[beaucoup ammo]

The intensity of the on going debate makes it all the more important cool heads prevail. If just 1 of us loses it during a discussion, that casts other Pro RKBA's in the same light: irrational hot heads unable to state their case.

When I get to the boiling point with an anti, I either make myself calm down or change the subject.

Shadan7 is right on the money. Pigeon holing and false assumptions can make you look the fool. Not all Liberals are Anti's. Paint with too broad a brush and you totally defeat the purpose.

The argument is simple, IMO, you are either Pro or Anti gun. Drag politics in and you've hurt yourself by fighting two fronts. It dilutes your efforts. Political persuasion does not dictate someone's postion in This fight. To believe so puts you at a disadvantage.

[budney]

Shadan7, you're certainly welcome here--in fact, pro-RKBA liberals are doubly welcome, because they're as rare as hens' teeth. ;)

I try not to bash liberals, but as an ex-right-winger it's easy to backslide. Being a libertarian during the War on Terror(tm) helps, because I take my share of bashing from "conservatives" calling me "liberaltarian." These days I'm equally fed up with righties and lefties.

On the subject of the thread, it would help if we worked harder to shake off our stereotype as a bunch of redneck republicans. Most everyone in every party supported RKBA at least until the 20th century. Exactly as you say, it ISN'T about Demublicans or Republicrats. It's about preserving a basic right.

--Len.

[ezypikns]

I've been reading some of the comments regarding the Virginia Tech shooting on some other threads and was a little heartsick. Nice to see there are many folks here who still think before engaging their mouths...or keyboards.

[cold dead hands]

If there has been one very true factor about the anti commie, negro, muslim, democrat, gay and you name your ailment crowd it is this...

They hate you but they LOVE your money.
You are supposed to come in, buy what they say (verbally and physically) and go. No need to argue because most of them feel that you are not needed and neither are the people that you associate with.

I think a good protest on the sidewalk, corner, or wherever by the outcasts would be excellent for their buisness. Signs like,"Only racists, homophobes and religious biggots shop here" would do wonders for their image.

[Lurper]

The shooting community as a whole (including the NRA) is usually either too busy preaching to the choir or fighting with their enemies to pay attention to the people who really matter: the fence sitters. What reasonable person (pro or anti- gun, liberal or conservative) would look at said signs and not think the purveyors were not a bunch of backwoods, illiterate, in-bred, redneck, hick, Bubbas? That is how we lose the unconverted - by living up to the stereotypes of the anti-gun crowd. In spite of facts that show the opposite like gun owners being better educated, more enlightened, etc.. If you really want to make a difference, be well spoken, eloquent and calm. Talk to friends, coworkers and acquaintances who are neither pro or anti, educate them about guns (with facts, not rhetoric). Offer to take them shooting. Tell them how theraputic shooting is: when you shoot, you have to concentrate on what you are doing. So it is very easy to leave the rest of the world behind for the amount of time you are on the range. Sort of "shooting therapy". Take them to a real range, not out in the woods. A place that is professional, personable and friendly. Don't take them to "Bubba's Gun Emporium" unless you want to make them think all gun owners are Bubbas. If every one of us would just show one person the road to enlightenment, we wouldn't be constantly battling the oppostion.

[junyo]

I've said it before, and I'll undoubtably have to say it again: being pro-RKBA isn't about being a Dem, a Repub, a Libertarian, or whatever - it's about being pro-RKBA.It's about being free.

[Eleven Mike]

I think a good protest on the sidewalk, corner, or wherever by the outcasts would be excellent for their buisness. Signs like,"Only racists, homophobes and religious biggots shop here" would do wonders for their image.

Actually, that would just do more damage to the RKBA, unless it was extremely well-done. "Protesters picket racist gun store." An ugly headline.


Yet I show up here, and the first thing I see on the queue is a thread about how all 'liberals' are evil. Thanks, guys, makes me really feel at home here with the other gunnies.

You know what? I don't like getting the same kind of grief from Libertarians around here. And us "homophobes" get hassled, too. And us Christians, and so on. And the Christians rail against secularism. And drug-warrior types get accosted by the legalization crowd. Deal with it.

[cold dead hands]

Actually I think that "protesters picket racist gun store" headlines would be wonderful. Those of the non caucasion, non straight, non racist, non hateful, non "you pick what they hate" types would know definately where they are not welcome and any other gunshop that provides equal treatment to all would see a large boom in their buisness as the bigot store goes out of buisness. That is provided that they do not have a large quantity of customers that like the way they think, but any serious loss of buisness hurts.

What if the owner had to let one or two bigots (employees) go because he could no longer pay them. Where you see damage, I see sucess.

[coelacanth]

has anyone actually spoken to the offending party re: the signage? maybe another point of view is all it would take to get a conversation going that might result in the questionable material being relegated to the back room.

[Oleg Volk]

Yes. They told me to fk off

[Eleven Mike]

cold dead hands,

You're cold dead wrong. Most "non caucasion, non straight, non racist, non hateful" people aren't customers of any gun store. If they are, they probably already know which store serves them best, anyway. They certainly are just as likely to see offensive signs.

Most likely, such picketing will appear to be an indictment of the gun community by non-gunnies. We're already perceived as being bigots. Drawing undue attention to racism in our ranks will further that. You may as well enlarge the sign in the window, photograph it, and publish it in the newspaper so everyone can see that gun people hate Muslims and Mexicans.

I'm not saying we shouldn't address the issue, we'll just have to do so a lot more carefully than what you're talking about. For instance, we can raise the issue on gun fora, as Oleg did, and through gun organizations and with friends. And we can try to reason with the bigots as Oleg tried to do.

[cold dead hands]

elevenmike... how come you do not see my point as to the fact that maybe some folks would ask why gun owners would refuse to do buisness with hateful people of said gunshops. Maybe we need a little push for the fence sitters into our side by making them see that gun owners are not always bigots. In fact some might be able to identify with gun owners and decide that they would like to be gun owners as well. Think of it as positive peer influence.

Oleg...it is a real shame that they very reason you do the things you do are actually helping to keep that kind of group going as well. What I mean is that RKBA is for all people regardless of the fact that they hate you for no good reason at all. Shame be on them and there houses. You are good man who has a good cause and unfortunately some are using your help to spit on you. It is this kind of human vermin that boils my blood.

[Groovski]

I've said it before, and I'll undoubtably have to say it again: being pro-RKBA isn't about being a Dem, a Repub, a Libertarian, or whatever - it's about being pro-RKBA.

It's about being free.

RKBA results in the freedom to be Dem, Repub, Libertarian, whatever.

[Thain]

IMHO, a lot of these ignorant tpyes are acting out of pure ignorance. They've never met a muslem, a sikh, a homosexual, or whatever [insert here] they are afraid of...

The best cure for a sickness is often a massive dose of anti-biotics. I see my "anti boycott" as just that... Shock treatment cultural immerison! :D

In a slightly more realistic mode, perhaps we could start a sort of Angie's List of gun shops?

[Eleven Mike]

elevenmike... how come you do not see my point as to the fact that maybe some folks would ask why gun owners would refuse to do buisness with hateful people of said gunshops. Maybe we need a little push for the fence sitters into our side by making them see that gun owners are not always bigots. In fact some might be able to identify with gun owners and decide that they would like to be gun owners as well. Think of it as positive peer influence.


I see your point, I just don't think it's realistic. Suppose John and Jane Fence-sitter are motoring along when they happen upon your demonstration. They see a diverse group of people holding signs that say "Only racists, homophobes and religious bigots shop here." They notice that the store in question is a gun store. It seems to me the conclusion most people will draw, based on the stereotypes they are fed, is that the protest is against the gun community, not within it. How do they know that the protestors are gun owners? More to the point, how do they know the protestors favor gun rights? The more "diverse" your protestors, the more likely it is that people will assume they are anti-gun.

I think it could be done in a way that people understand, but I'm not sure how. The signs would have to be written as "NRA members against bigotry," or something of the sort. Even so, the media will spin this event as a protest against the extremism of those crazy gun owners or as a call for gun control.

[kahr404life]

Oleg,
You hit the nail on the head.:)