Shootings that armed citizens HAVE stopped


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Bartholomew Roberts
April 16, 2007, 09:45 PM
I just thought it might be handy to create a thread where we can posts links to news stories of armed citizens intervening to stop mass shootings (or perhaps the Killeen case where prohibition by law prevented an intervention)

1. Luby's Killeen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby's_massacre) - Suzanna Gratia Hupp had a handgun; but had left it in the glovebox of her car in order to obey state laws prohibiting the carry of concealed weapons at the time. Both her parents were killed and this tragedy led to a change in the law.

2. Pearl, MI (http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm) - High school principal stops school shooting with a .45

Anybody else have more?

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AndyC
April 16, 2007, 09:49 PM
St James Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_James_Church_Massacre) - Kenilworth, Cape Town, South Africa

During the Sunday evening service on 25 July 1993, a group of APLA cadres attacked the St James Church in Kenilworth. Using grenades and AK-47s, they killed 11 members of the congregation and wounded 58. A single churchgoer, Charl van Wyk, managed to return fire, wounding one of the attackers, and the attackers fled.

MDHunter
April 16, 2007, 10:29 PM
Was that the name of the guy in Texas 2-3 years back who heard the shooting at the courthouse across the street, ran out of his apartment and engaged the shooter, died in the process, but was able to drive off the shooter?

Michael

gyp_c2
April 16, 2007, 10:33 PM
...I dunno', take a look @ this link and see if this is helpful or not...
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

DRZinn
April 17, 2007, 12:11 AM
I don't remember details, but there was one at a college (law school?)where two students ran to their cars and got their weapons, which they should have had on them but werent allowed.

cloudedice
April 17, 2007, 12:26 AM
It was the Appalachain Law School. John Lott bashed the MSM about this as it is a classic example of their bias against guns. Most news articles say the students "confronted" or "tackled" the gunman. They neglect to mention that these students were armed.

http://www.uwire.com/content/topops012402002.html

DRZinn
April 17, 2007, 12:34 AM
That's the one. I was even going to say it was "in the mountains somewhere.

Guntalk
April 17, 2007, 12:38 AM
A few weeks after the Luby's shooting, there was a similar incident at a Shoney's, in Alabama, I think.

One patron had a gun, and as the diners were being led to the walk-in cooler, he shot one of the two gunmen. The other ran away.

No masacre.

Elza
April 17, 2007, 02:46 AM
Guntalk: A few weeks after the Luby's shooting, there was a similar incident at a Shoney's, in Alabama, I think.That happened in Anniston, AL.

http://www.albertlowe.com/wordpress/

What Columbine SHOULD have been
October 24th, 2005
IMAGINE!
(What Columbine COULD have been!!)

By Ann Coulter
08/13/1999

Remember this name: Thomas Glenn Terry. It won’t be bandied
quite as much as “Mark O. Barton” over the next few weeks,
but it should be. Two armed men burst into Shoney’s restaurant
in Anniston, Alabama and herded the patrons and employees into
a walk-in refrigerator, at gun point. The robbers kept the
manager behind for his assistance as they looted the
restaurant. One patron, however, also remained behind.
Thomas Glenn Terry had opted against being locked in a
refrigerator, and hid from the attackers under a table.

As one of the armed robbers ransacked the cash register,
another patroled the restaurant. When he came across
Mr. Terry, he pulled his gun.

But unlike the recent victims in Atlanta, this victim
was armed. Using his own legally concealed handgun,
Terry shot and killed the robber. The other armed robber,
who had had his gun trained on the manager, then opened
fire on Terry. Terry shot back, mortally wounding the
second robber. The two dozen hostages were released
unharmed. Only the criminals — who had been armed
with stolen guns by the way — didn’t make it out alive.

You probably hadn’t heard of the Shoney’s restaurant
incident. In the media’s boundless capacity to stultify
the public with sensational news stories, they have made
places like Littleton, Colorado household names. But
“Anniston, Alabama” doesn’t ring a bell.

A massacre is a story. Thwarting a massacre isn’t.
once you know about Anniston, and similar averted tragedies,
something will start to leap out at you as you read news
accounts of gunmen shooting scores of innocents. Massacre
stories always include a terrifying account of how the killers
proceeded from victim to victim, pausing to reload, and
shooting again. Mass murder requires that the victims be
unarmed.

Thomas Glenn Terry, though heroic, is not altogether
unique. Two years ago in Pearl, Mississippi a deranged
student shot and killed two of his classmates. Fortunately,
Joel Myrick, the assistant principal had a gun in his car.
He prevented the shooting from becoming a Littleton level
massacre by holding the student at gunpoint until the police
arrived.

A year later, in Edinboro, Pennsylvania, a 14-year-old boy
opened fire at an eighth-grade graduation dance, killing a
teacher and wounding three others. A single murder did not
become a mass murder only because a near-by restaurant owner,
James Strand, happened to be armed. As the shooter stopped
to reload, Strand immobilized the shooter, holding him for
over ten minutes, until the police appeared. A lot of killing
can be accomplished in ten minutes when none of your victims
is armed.

How long did it take the police to arrive in Atlanta?
Barton walked into one office building in Atlanta shot four
people dead, then left the building, ambled across the street,
entered another building, and killed at least five more people.
As in Littleton there are film clips of policemen scaling the
building’s walls to rescue terrified and completely defenseless
people inside.

Most striking in the news reports of Barton’s shooting
spree was this: Fully three hours after the shooting, some
people were still hiding in the building. Hiding. Waiting
like pigs before the slaughter. Because none of them was
armed. None but the madman.

But for some reason, the government’s response is always to
disarm more citizens. Not to disarm itself, by the way, but
to disarm people other than the police who show up 15 minutes
after the shooting has begun. This isn’t a complaint about the
police, they simply can’t be everywhere at once. It’s a plea
for more citizen guards. There may be bad citizens, but, let
me remind you, there are also bad police. Why are they the
only ones don’t have to hide in their offices when madmen
with guns show up?

More guns will not create more Mark Bartons. Guns can do a
lot of things, like protect you from lunatics, but they don’t
make you criminally insane. Consider Mr. Barton. The initial
reports have been that he killed his children because his stock
porfolio had declined. Well, that’s a rational response. Whether
it was his stocks or his wife or the weather — he killed his
children.

This is a madman. In the absence of a gun, he could
have used an axe, a bomb, or a machette. One of the most
efficient murder sprees this century was accomplished not with
guns, but with machettes. Madmen in Rwanda murdered almost
one million people in under four months, with machettes.

If only Thomas Glenn Terry had been there.

Rumpled
April 17, 2007, 04:01 AM
Not CHL, but wasn't the 1966 UT shooter in the tower engaged by other students who grabbed deer rifles out of trucks/cars as well as police?

sacp81170a
April 17, 2007, 05:55 AM
Don't forget the recent shootings at the mall in SLC. The individual in that incident was far more heavily armed than this one, yet was stopped mid-rampage by an off-duty police officer with a snubby revolver.

1 old 0311
April 17, 2007, 06:10 AM
Do a Google on Israel. This happens there ALL the time. Teachers, bus drivers, soccer moms, all carry UZI's.

Shovelhead
April 17, 2007, 07:07 AM
It's difficult for a law-abiding citizen to use a firearm for defense when these criminals keep attacking victims by bringing guns into a "Gun-Free Zone".
(Schools, shopping malls, workplaces)

cloudedice
April 17, 2007, 08:11 AM
The people featured in this blog may not prevent mass killings, but they do stop crime: http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

News Shooter
April 17, 2007, 08:22 AM
From the New Hampshire Union Leader:

MANCHESTER – Bullets flew outside the Uptown Tavern early yesterday when a peeved patron began shooting at a doorman after being thrown out of the club. The shooter himself was shot twice by an armed customer who rushed to the bouncer's defense, a club owner and police said.

The shooter had missed doorman Chad Ryan after firing about four shots at him in the 1301 Elm St. club's parking lot when the alleged gunman was himself hit twice by the unidentified patron who returned fire about 12:45 a.m., said club co-owner Dave Somers.

An armed citizen does more in the span of ten seconds to get a violent criminal off the streets than all of Boston Mayor Tom Menino's gun buybacks, task forces, and bigoted gun licensing policies, combined.

I'm shocked.

The wounded suspect, identified by police as Eliezer Encarnacion, 26, and his companion -- both of whom were thrown out of the club moments earlier -- ran from the parking lot up Myrtle Street with an angry group of club patrons in pursuit.

Well, I'll be damned. Wearing running shoes might just be a good idea, after all.

Encarnacion was about six to eight feet from Ryan when he fired the first shot, hitting the door frame, Willard said. When the second shot rang out, a male customer inside the bar realized what was happening and intervened, he continued.

"He feels the bouncer's life is in danger and he produces his own firearm and proceeds to return fire," said [Det. Lt. Nick] Willard, who credited the patron with saving the doorman and possibly even Brown from being shot.

Or, he could have ducked behind a table and called 911, as called out in Chapter 1 of the "Self Defense for Liberals Handbook". Sure, innocent people would be killed before he hit the "9", but at least the coroner's office could get a headstart on sending a clean-up crew to the scene.

Police withheld the patron's name while they continue their investigation, which will include an inquiry into whether his use of deadly force was justified.

Club employees were not aware the customer -- described as a regular patron -- was carrying a concealed weapon, Somers said.

That's pretty much the whole point of it. Hence, the phrase "concealed weapon".

"I'm not okaying it. But if he didn't, probably my doorman would be dead," Somers said.

A small price to pay, in the eyes of the Ted Kennedy's of the world, to realize their dream of transforming the greatest nation on earth into a totalitarian police state, where only those in high positions of power will enjoy the right to have their lives defended by the use of firearms.

rhubarb
April 17, 2007, 08:25 AM
Mark Wilson
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2005/02/concealed-handgum-permit-holders.html

A 52-year-old manufacturing plant employee, credited with saving another man's life by jumping into the middle of a fierce firefight on a Texas downtown square, was known for taking life "head-on." Friends weren't surprised to hear that Mark Wilson sacrificed his own life by confronting a gunman firing an AK-47 assault-style rifle Thursday in Tyler, Texas.

"He is the type of person who would grab his gun and go," said Lewis George of Dallas, Wilson's former brother-in-law and best friend for 30 years. "If it was me, I would have been running the other way.

"Mark, he took life head-on."

TexasRifleman
April 17, 2007, 08:41 AM
I just thought it might be handy to create a thread where we can posts links to news stories of armed citizens intervening to stop mass shootings (or perhaps the Killeen case where prohibition by law prevented an intervention)

The problem is a lot of things were stopped early on, before they ever became "mass shootings" so they don't garner much attention.

TexasRifleman
April 17, 2007, 08:43 AM
I just thought it might be handy to create a thread where we can posts links to news stories of armed citizens intervening to stop mass shootings (or perhaps the Killeen case where prohibition by law prevented an intervention)

The problem is a lot of things were stopped early on, before they ever became "mass shootings" so they don't garner much attention.

As mentioned in the Ann Coulter article above on the incident in Alabama:

A massacre is a story. Thwarting a massacre isn’t.

zahc
April 17, 2007, 03:21 PM
I have heard mention in several threads that there have been school shootings, and a recent mall shooting that were stopped my armed citizens or off duty police officers. Could we make a quick compilation of them? I think it's important to have information showing that it CAN be done, and has been done.

PILMAN
April 17, 2007, 03:22 PM
the Appalachian School of Law shooting, which occured in Virginia in 2002. In that case, a shooter was stopped by two students using their personal firearms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

SDC
April 17, 2007, 03:40 PM
Here's a more in-depth analysis of the 2002 Appalachian Law School shootings: http://johnrlott.tripod.com/apla2.html
I also seem to remember a school shooting where the principal (using a CCWed 1911) stopped it in progress, but I can't find it now.

El Tejon
April 17, 2007, 03:51 PM
Pearl, Mississippi.

Correia
April 17, 2007, 04:00 PM
Joel Myrick, Pearl Mississippi.

Off duty Officer Hammond, Trolley Square, Salt Lake City

And there are a slew of shootings, where the badguy was shot in the first few minutes, that very may well have turned into high body count media freakfests, but since the badguy got shot before the body count grew, no media coverage.

Jorg Nysgerrig
April 17, 2007, 04:02 PM
Might be worth combining these threads: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=270151

Correia
April 17, 2007, 04:04 PM
Threads merged.

Robert Hairless
April 17, 2007, 06:22 PM
Another problem with public health and gun control is the way the subject of guns and violence is reported by the media ‹ with bias and sensationalism. Let us, for example, take a look at how the media reports mass shootings in America. Three illustrative cases will help us draw inferences as to the nature of these incidents and their reporting by the media.

In Pearl, Mississippi, in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham used a hunting rifle to kill his ex-girlfriend and her close friend and wound 7 other students. It was Assistant Principal Joel Myrick who retrieved his handgun from his automobile and halted Woodham¹s shooting spree. Myrick held the young delinquent at bay until the police arrived. Later it was discovered that Woodham had also used a knife to stab his mother to death earlier that morning. While the shooting was widely reported, the fact that Mr. Myrick, an armed citizen, prevented a larger massacre with his gun was ignored by the media.

In Edinboro, Pennsylvania, in 1998, a deadly scenario took place when 14-year-old Andrew Wurst killed one teacher and wounded another as well as two other classmates. The shooting rampage here was halted by merchant James Strand who used his shotgun to force the young criminal to halt his firing, drop his gun, and surrender to police.

But yet, in another unreported incident in Santa Clara, California, Richard Gable Stevens, rented a rifle for target practice at the National Shooting Club on July 5, 1999 and then began a shooting rampage, herding three store employees into a nearby alley, and stating he intended to kill them. When Stevens became momentarily distracted, a shooting club employee, who had a .45-caliber handgun concealed under his shirt, drew his weapon and fired. Stevens was hit in the chest and critically wounded. He was then held at bay until the police arrived. A massacre in the making was prevented. The unknown employee was an unsung hero ignored by the major media. Why are these and other similar incidents, where the tables are turned and citizens use guns to protect themselves and others, not reported by the mainstream media?

The above is from a fascinating and important two-part series entitled "Public Health and Gun Control: A Review" on the web site of the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons by the editor of AAPSOnline.

The quotation is from Part II, "Gun Violence and Constitutional Issues." (http://www.aapsonline.org/press/medsentgun2.htm)Search for "Pearl" to get to the quotation.

Useful and interesting too is Part I, "The Benefits of Firearms." (http://www.aapsonline.org/press/medsentgun1.htm)

Both parts are worth saving for future reference and for distribution to friends.

Double Naught Spy
April 17, 2007, 07:22 PM
A lot has been made of the Appalatian School of Law incident. One of those two citizens who stopped that event was actually a sheriff's deputy who was off duty.

It's difficult for a law-abiding citizen to use a firearm for defense when these criminals keep attacking victims by bringing guns into a "Gun-Free Zone".
(Schools, shopping malls, workplaces)

Maybe so, but most such events do not occur in gun-free zones.

Whether in gun-free zones or not, it is amazing to see how many folks are unwilling to actively try to stop attacks even when they have numerous resources available. Cowering/hiding and flight seem to be some of the most common responses. Some will attempt to stop incoming harm. Few will try to counter attack the threat. Hupp's own description of the Luby's event was that of folks mostly cowering, a couple who tried to tackle the shooter and were shot in the process, but in a room of knives, forks, ceramic plates, glass drinking glasses, salt and pepper shakers (glass), fire extinguishers, etc., most did little or nothing.

At VT, the only active responses seemed to be blocking the door to prevent entry and re-entry of the shooter. Many were shot while trying to hide behind desks and ended up being stationary targets.

Guns or not, stopping these events in a timely manner is going to require active responses by those involved in the events. Waiting for help to arrive has proven to be quite costly time and time again.

Rumpled
April 17, 2007, 08:40 PM
The Santa Clara gun store employee is not totally unknown. But it probably didn't make the media much.
He's an internet poster and has posted his story of the events. I'ver read his account. He had some pretty memorable quotes he gave from a trial or deposition, sorry, I can't remember which.

The NRA magazines publish a dozen or so of these every month, all taken from the media. It's called the Armed Citizen.

Zen21Tao
April 17, 2007, 11:20 PM
May I suggest this thread be pinned for easy reference in the future. The storys presented in this thread could definitely be a great resource for use in debating or counter arguing anti-gun anacdotal accounts of gun violence. I can't count the number of times I have been able to use these types of anacdotal accounts or simply the the ability to present such accounts as a means to get anti-gunners to move away from premises based on their own anadotes to premises built on a foundation of logic and facts.

Robert Hairless
April 18, 2007, 12:06 AM
Zen21Tao:

Good idea. I hope the moderators agree. It would be good to have them in one place. And I think we're going to need them a lot.

Carl N. Brown
April 18, 2007, 12:13 PM
On the fifth anniversity, NET News Service carried an interview
with one of the survivors of the 2002 Appalachian School of Law
shooting in Grundy VA. Tracey McGuire Frisk, law student, and
Kim Boyd, librarian, barricaded themselves in the library office:
"Hearing a struggle outside, the pair fearfully crept to
the window. Peering out Frisk watched as two law students,
former policemen armed with handguns, confronted and
subdued Odighizuwa...."--11 Mar 07 Kingsport Times-News.

coyote_jr
April 18, 2007, 12:27 PM
Do a Google on Israel. This happens there ALL the time. Teachers, bus drivers, soccer moms, all carry UZI's.

Darn near pissed myself reading this....the Jews God Bless 'em :D

ZeSpectre
April 18, 2007, 01:06 PM
The NRA "Armed Citizen" collumn.

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

NM234
April 18, 2007, 01:33 PM
while these stories are good, in order to combat anti-gun legislation we need statistics, because anti-gun people will just counter with the story about the moron who left his gun on the kitchen table and his kid got.... you know how the rest goes. We need to show anti-gun legislators (mostly "liberals", I use qoutes because I'm opposed to gun legislation and would consider myself a liberal, a real liberal would not support gun legislation; I feel I'm the last real liberal around) that these events happen more often than the story about the kid.

shooting time
April 18, 2007, 01:39 PM
In every issue of the American Rifleman 2nd or 3rd page is the armed citizen true stories

Sistema1927
April 18, 2007, 02:04 PM
While we can attempt to list the instances where armed citizens intervened, it is very difficult to quantify the entire story. This is due to the fact that the knowledge that armed citizens are present serves to deter some crimes, and many others are never reported. It may also be a case where quick intervention defuses a situation that may have escalated into multiple fatalities.

For example, a guy entered the Wal-Mart where his ex-wife worked, and began to stab her. A New Mexico CCW holder intervened, and shot the attacker dead. The wife did not die from her injuries. Who is to say that this looney tune wouldn't have finished her off, then attacked her co-workers, managers, fellow customers, etc.?

Tim James
April 18, 2007, 04:33 PM
in order to combat anti-gun legislation we need statisticsI'm starting to disagree (http://www.fff.org/freedom/0694c.asp). (Of course, he quotes statistics in there too :rolleyes: so here's (http://www.capitalism.org/faq/guns.htm) another one from a quick Google search.)

Hacking at leaves and roots and all that.

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