[Higgins]

I know that with the Browning tilt-to-lock barrel method of operation, aka 1911, the barrel angles donward at the chamber when the slides unlocks - hence the upward tilt of the muzzle of the barrel when the slide is back. On 1911's this tilt if fairly pronounced.

I've noticed that on other semi-autos with a modified form of Browning's tilt-to-lock method of operation, the tilt seems much less pronounced and even non-existent. E.g. the CZ 75 barrel seems to hardly tilt at all or appear angled upward when the slide is back.

This got me to wondering if in fact the barrel tilt is much less on a CZ or other forms of semi-autos that use a modified form of the basic Browning method of operation. And, if so, if this is because of the modified nature of the lugs under the barrel, i.e. no swinging link like in the 1911, but a kidney-shaped cutout (CZ) or angled prongs (Glock, BHP, USP, etc...). On these guns, does the barrel barrel tilt less or tilt not at all? And does this add to the accuracy of these pistols by getting rid of the 1911 barrel link?

Just something I noticed and was curious about. Thanks for any responses.

[bokchoi]

I've found that my USP, Sig P226, and Glock all tilt more noticeably than the 1911 style locking mechanism, the P226 showing a particularly steep tilt with the slide locked back. The CZ doesn't seem to tilt as much, just slightly like I see on a 1911.

This said, however, the Sig and USP are two of the most accurate duty guns I own, so I don't think the tilt has much to do with accuracy as much as it has to do with function and design; the P226 does have a much higher bore axis than my other guns and its barrel rests much higher above the frame when in full lockup.

[Jim Watson]

It was an engineering decision.
The Colt and Sig-Sauer lock up with the barrel approximately horizontal to the rails and unlock with the breech lowered/muzzle angled up.
The CZ locks up in battery with the barrel elevated at the breech end and unlocks with the barrel about horizontal. The actual movement has to be close, the depth of locking lug engagement is similar. Look at the sights. The front is low, the rear is high, so as to bring the POI of that downhill barrel up.

[Handy]

It is a function of the amount of locking lug engagement AND the length of the barrel.

The most pronounced tilt will come from a deep lug surface and a short barrel.

The link, kidney shape or ramps all do the same thing and can be located to simulate each other. A Ruger P89 uses a Sig lug system with a 1911 swinging link, for instance.

[Higgins]

Thanks for the responses. Interesting that some pistols' barrels sit at an angle to their rails in full lockup. I hadn't realized that.

I guess my question arose out of my looking at the CZ 75, recognizing that its barrel didn't appear to be angled or tilted when the slide is back, and knowing that it uses a "kidney" shaped lug under the barrel instead of a link.

I thought perhaps CZ had designed it so that the barrel didn't tilt so much as just retract(recoil) and lower, or drop down without angling - a la Browning's original 1911 design which used two links, one at the front and one at the back of the barrel. But, based on other posts, it would appear that's not the case and the barrel still tilts, or angles, however slightly.

Thanks.

[1911Tuner]

Higgins asked:

And does this add to the accuracy of these pistols by getting rid of the 1911 barrel link?

The falling link on the 1911 doesn't have anything to do with
vertical lockup. That's determined by the aggregate dimensions
of the slide stop pin, lower lug, locking lugs and their depth
of engagement in the slide's recesses.

Some people will install a longer link in order to "fix"
a pistol that has a barrel with vertical play, but it's not
the right way to get a tight lockup at the rear of the barrel.
This transfers the load to the link and its pin, which will cause the
pin to wallow out the hole and bring on more problems than it solves, and the sloppy lockup will return fairly quickly with use.

The link serves to anchor the barrel to the frame, and isn't
really necessary for the pistol to function until it gets dirty,
or is fired upside down. The link can be removed, and the pistol will function unless there is a mechanical timing problem.

Cheers!
Tuner

[Handy]

Higgins,

If you stick a pencil lead in the link and trace out the arc it describes, you'll find it's exactly the same shape as the kidney shape under the CZ barrel. Two ways of doing the same thing. Neither one is "better", but the CZ/Sig 210 method has fewer parts.
The link serves to anchor the barrel to the frame, and isn't really necessary for the pistol to function until it gets dirty, or is fired upside down.

This is something that Tuner and I disagree on. I say that the extractor and slide speed is going to hold the barrel in the locked position (gravity won't do it) and the link is necessary to pull the barrel out of slide lug engagement.

[Cthulhu]

What happened to the rest of this thread?

[Sean Smith]

Last I saw, it was turning into a flame war. I think Handy got banned, based on an e-mail he sent me. Presumably all the flames got deleted. :confused:

[Cthulhu]

Ahh...thanks for the heads up, Sean.

At least it deleted Handy's messed up physics example. It was as shockingly condescending as it was fundamentally wrong.

Hopefully 1911Tuner wasn't banned as well.

[1911Tuner]

I'm here...For now at least....Why'd they boot Handy?
This was just startin' to be a hoot.

Cheers! ( I think)
Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Okay...here's the skinny.

I just got a formal warning from the mods. I guess it
did get a little off the scale, but honestly it was gettin'
to be fun...and I never meant to hijack the thread.
Just a stab at correcting a misunderstood part of the
pistol's function.

Apologies to all who were offended, and an appeal to
commute Handy's sentence to a 24-hour ban. Although
he can be a little crass in his approach, he does tend to force
detailed explanations, and that helps to give everybody
the chance to evaluate the information and come to a
logical conclusion.

Tuner