Virginia Gun Laws(or lack of)


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greenscape
April 17, 2007, 10:30 PM
I don't know how up to date this site is, but it sounds like you can just about order a 9mm with your coffee in the morning at convenience stores in Virginia according to this.

While I am in full support of a citizens right to bear arms, I looks like this states policies(based on this anyways) may be a tad irresponsible. I have a CT. permit to carry. And while I feel it was a pain in the A$$ to acquire, I do get some comfort out of the screening policy. Not to say this idiot would not have found a way to buy a gun anyhow or found some other way to commit this violence. But this will certainly bring out the Monday morning Q-backs and the "woulda, coulda, shoulda's..


http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/state/viewstate.php?st=va

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6_gunner
April 17, 2007, 10:40 PM
That's the way it should be. Unless a guy's still wearing the uniform of the looney bin or prison he escaped from, he should be able to order a 9mm with his coffee. :neener:

What we need is the ability to defend ourselves, not gun regulations!

Having said that, I can definitely see your point that selling a gun to a lunatic is irresponsible. However, all the regulations in the world won't keep a weapon out of said lunatic's hand.

bluto
April 17, 2007, 10:59 PM
What are you talking about? And why are you citing the Brady Campaign?

They have background checks in Virginia. Their laws are reasonable.

Do you want consumer safety standards? That means that the legislature can slap any type of restriction on any gun that they want: guns that stamp a serial number on the bullet before it fires; guns that can only be fired by the owner using quirky electronic devices that render the gun completely unreliable; guns that have multiple safeties like magazine disconnects, loaded chamber indicators, plus built in key locks not to mention 10 round magazines etc. (All of the aforementioned restrictions have been introduced in the California legislature. The last one is now law and getting new guns into our state may be a thing of the past).

The Brady bunch, like HCI has only one thing on its agenda - and it isn't gun control. It's gun elimination.

Please be specific about what you think Virgina lacks in its gun laws and why.

greenscape
April 17, 2007, 11:27 PM
Nor am I anadvocate of the Brady campaign at any level. I just happen to do a search on Virginia Gun Law and thats what I found. Dispute it if you want with facts if you have them, otherwise please share your logic on the subject. Otherwise you come across pretty ignorant. Did you read the site ??
Apparently not. As a permit holder, I have absolutely no problem with the process that I went through to acquire it. It was lengthy and it cost me a few bucks, but in the name of being a responsible citizen, I think its OK.

SECONDARY SALES
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? No

No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.


WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? No

No state requirement that there be a waiting period for gun sales beyond the "instant check" in federal law. Police are not given any additional time to run a criminal background check to make sure the gun buyer is not prohibited from acquiring firearms. There is no "cooling off" period to help prevent crimes of passion.

usp9
April 17, 2007, 11:39 PM
SECONDARY SALES
Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? No

No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check.

Sales through an FFL at gun shows are no different than from a gun store. Private sales are not regulated. How do other states regulate private sales?


WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? No

Correct, there is no need due to the computer age.

No state requirement that there be a waiting period for gun sales beyond the "instant check" in federal law. Police are not given any additional time to run a criminal background check to make sure the gun buyer is not prohibited from acquiring firearms. There is no "cooling off" period to help prevent crimes of passion.

State Police do in fact run a background check and turn people down routinely. I've also witnessed a shop owner refuse to sell to an "agitated" person.

Virginia gun laws didn't kill those kids...a wack job did.

alucard0822
April 17, 2007, 11:51 PM
In VA all of the federal background checks, paperwork and laws apply, with a 1 gun per 30 day in addition and the additional checks that apply to all non-citizen permanent legal immigrants. In fact there are probably few or no states that wouldn't have sold him either pistol, he had no criminal convictions, was of legal age and a permanent resident alien with a greencard. Gun control cost more lives than it saves, criminals of all types will always be able to buy/steal/smuggle guns from somewhere, only law abiding people who will not carry illegally or buy an illegal gun are affected just look at the murder capital of America, Washington DC. Virginia's lack of obstacles to gun ownership by private law abiding citizens, and ability for people to carry for personal protection are indeed socially and morally responsible. Iresponsible would be the laws of DC, NY, CA, and MD that place an irrational fear exploited for political gain ahead of public and personal safety.

BigO01
April 17, 2007, 11:59 PM
greenscape you really should think about what you are saying here in addition to educating yourself on a few facts on gun laws .

First off any and all internet purchases from an FFL will only be shipped to another FFL if it is not the FFL seller is breaking a Federal law .

Your waiting period as a "Cooling off period" is a joke at best here in MO I have to get a Permit to purchase all handguns or I am breaking the law , fact is if I apply for a permit on Monday morning chances are I will have my permit on Friday or perhaps the middle of the next week at the longest .

If I am of a mind to kill you on a Monday do you really think a 1 week wait will change my mind ?

Also owning a firearm is a Constitutional Right not privilege it doesn't matter what YOU or anyone else thinks is reasonable .

One of these days this whole matter will be decided by the Supreme Court and if they are honest about it most of these stupid gun laws that people like you think are reasonable will be washed away .

BTW the killer in VA had apparently been planning this for several weeks , which is far longer than any "Cooling Off Period" takes and he had no criminal record that would have stopped the sale of the guns .

bakert
April 18, 2007, 12:09 AM
As a responsible citizen you're worried about no "reasonable" restrictions on things like private gun sales with no background check, cooling off periods etc.?? Are you a gun owner?? My BS meter is clicking:scrutiny:

Black Knight
April 18, 2007, 12:40 AM
Greenscape:
As a native born Virginian please allow me to comment. Virginia laws are very reasonable. You go to a FFL dealer, then fill out two forms, the dealer calls the Virginia State Police for a background check. If the check comes back clean You got a gun, if not no gun. As far as private sales go, did you know that according to federal statistics automobile accidents kill twice as many as guns? If you sell your car should you do a license check on the buyer? Should you do a criminal background to see if the buyer is a habitual offender or drunk driver? Should you have a waiting period so the checks can come back or the will to drive subsides? I am tired of people telling Virginians that we have live by their rules, especially when they don't have the slightest idea what they are talking about and have created a cess pool of there own homes. If you want to learn Virginia guns check the Virginia State Police web site or FindLaw to check the Code of Virginia. Don't go to some baffoon who hates guns to begin with.

Folks I'm sorry I got abit emotional but over the last several years I have come accross many from out of state that have moved here and then complained that it is not like where they came from and love. Then they set out to recreate what they left. Instead of adapting to us they try to force us to adapt to them. I love my home state Virginia and do not want to see it changed into something it is not. Virginia has a proud history and tradition. Remember Yorktown, Jamestown, George Washington, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, James Monroe, and Woodrow Wilson (born in Staunton, VA)?

RNB65
April 18, 2007, 02:09 AM
There's nothing wrong with Virginia's gun laws. Every gun bought from a gun dealer requires a background check by the State Police that involves checking both state and NICS/NCIC records.

I could care less if VA decided to mandate background checks on private sales. I rarely buy guns in private sales and using an FFL to handle a transfer would be no big deal.

Waiting periods are silly. Nothing but feel-good legislation that lawmakers can gloat over. Don't need 'em.

nemoaz
April 18, 2007, 04:07 AM
I am not a TrollOK.
Nor am I anadvocate of the Brady campaign at any level. I just happen to do a search on Virginia Gun Law and thats what I found.
Well, you should have known better.
Dispute it if you want with facts if you have them, otherwise please share your logic on the subject. Otherwise you come across pretty ignorant. What is your point? What is it you want proven?
Apparently not. As a permit holder, I have absolutely no problem with the process that I went through to acquire it. It was lengthy and it cost me a few bucks, but in the name of being a responsible citizen, I think its OK.You paid too much. What does that have to do with Virginians being smarter than Connecticutions? What does it have to do with the Ismael Ax shooter?
SECONDARY SALES Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? No. No state requirement that criminal background checks be done on people buying firearms at gun shows, swap meets or through newspaper or internet advertisements. Criminal background checks are only required if the buyer goes to a federally-licensed gun store - all other sales are not subject to the background check. The Ismael Ax shooter bought his gun from a dealer. This wouldn't have changed anything. He bought his gun from a dealer and passed a background check. And since he had no convictions and no records of mental illness, he would have passed in your state too.
WAITING PERIOD Is there a waiting period on gun sales? No No state requirement that there be a waiting period for gun sales beyond the "instant check" in federal law. Police are not given any additional time to run a criminal background check to make sure the gun buyer is not prohibited from acquiring firearms. There is no "cooling off" period to help prevent crimes of passion.
The Ismael's Ax shooter bought the guns a few months prior. This wouldn't have mattered.
I do agree with you. Virginia's laws are stupid. They should have mandated that their students could carry weapons to protect themselves, as happened when a gunman tried to become a mass murderer in a Virginian law school a few years prior.

Now my turn. Does your state also require background checks and big fines/fees for practiciing other constitutional rights? Do you pay to speak your mind? Assemble? Attend a religious service?

RUT
April 18, 2007, 09:08 AM
>>Folks I'm sorry I got abit emotional but over the last several years I have come accross many from out of state that have moved here and then complained that it is not like where they came from and love. Then they set out to recreate what they left<<

I feel your pain... this is exactly what we're experiencing in New Hampshire!! :mad:

CajunBass
April 18, 2007, 09:31 AM
Personally, I'm all for repealing the ones we've got. The "good guys" are the only ones who obey them, and they're the ones you don't have to worry about. The "bad guys" just ignore all of them, not just the gun control ones, anyway.

hkenvy91
April 18, 2007, 10:54 AM
well he could have killed those people with a baseball bat. do u wanna ban baseball bats now?

30 cal slob
April 18, 2007, 11:43 AM
WAITING PERIOD
Is there a waiting period on gun sales? No

well, i think greenscape is a troll or a truely clueless CT resident.

in CT, if you have a valid pistol permit ... THERE IS NO WAITING PERIOD FOR ANYTHING. It's an INSTANT CHECK. (exception: NFA toys, which are governed largely by a federal process).

Greenscape, nice try.

Ed Meinel
April 18, 2007, 12:47 PM
Like Black Knight said, if you want to know what the law is, check the actual law, not some dubious interpretation.

For example:with a 1 gun per 30 dayNope, it's one handgun per 30 days; you can buy as many rifles as you like.

October
April 18, 2007, 01:15 PM
well he could have killed those people with a baseball bat. do u wanna ban baseball bats now?
Do you honestly believe he could have killed 32 people with a baseball bat without someone stopping him?

Arguments like these only help the antis demonstrate that pro-gun types are not rooted in reality.

Outlaw Man
April 18, 2007, 01:25 PM
The waiting (or "cooling off") period argument is moot in this case. He bought the gun a couple of weeks prior - at least from the news reports I read. He certainly didn't get it with his 9:00 coffee that morning.

Virginia's gun sales laws are more restrictive than several states - and he didn't skirt any of them by using "loopholes" like private sales.

EricTheBarbarian
April 18, 2007, 01:56 PM
Do you honestly believe he could have killed 32 people with a baseball bat without someone stopping him?

only if it was a hi capacity assault baseball bat. thats why they need to be banned. they serve no sporting purpose, except baseball ofcourse. dont get too worked up about someone saying baseball bats or something, this is a troll thread afterall:)

JimmyN
April 18, 2007, 02:01 PM
There is a lot of bad information about gun show sales because of the anti's misrepresentation of the laws in their efforts to stop gun shows.

Almost all of the people selling at gun shows are normal gun dealers that have a brick and mortar store somewhere. Dealers perform the same background checks they would if you were purchasing in their store. I go to most of the gun shows in the area and have found you will likely only find a few private individuals selling, which requires no background check. Private face to face sales to other state residents are not required to perform a background check in Virginia.

The Brady site lists two different categories, but they are related.
"Are background checks required on 'private' gun sales? No"

That is true, but the other category,

"Are background checks required at gun shows? No"
is misleading. The same background checks are still required, except for the first item "Are background checks required on 'private' sales."

In all my years of going to gun shows I have never purchased a firearm from an individual. There are not that many of them selling there, and I have never seen an individual with anything I really wanted.

So in reality there is no "gun show loophole". What they really want to do is restrict private sales between individuals. But in an effort to end gun shows they call it the "gun show loophole".

steveracer
April 18, 2007, 02:34 PM
I love CT. Seriously.
I was making a point about your incorrect and irresponsible musings about VA, and trying to show you that a blanket misrepresentation is not useful here.
Steve

mkonops
April 18, 2007, 02:37 PM
I agree with you there. Every state has its own diverse array of people. I certainly can't speak for all of them.

Lonestar49
April 18, 2007, 02:47 PM
...

Double Post.. my bad

Lonestar49
April 18, 2007, 03:00 PM
...

The "facts" that show that the legal, required, performed, background check, showed nothing on this nut, and he legally bought the 9mm 30days prior to his planned attack, giving him plenty of time to become quite accurate at close range, COM, or shooting, frozen people either lying down, hoping to be out of the line of fire, or just standing frozen, along with reloading another clip and continuing shooting into the masses (hard to miss) and take out 32, before doing the world the one good favor of killing himself and saving the taxpayers money, along with any lawyers job to get him off anyway possible, in this case, insanity plea.

But the real heart of the breakdown, besides the fact that laws that prohibit law abiding, fully trained CCW, adults/teachers, etc., to carry on any School campus's, ALONG with the fact that many students new he was one pissed of troubled person/angry at the world, along with several teachers (the smart ones, supposedly) reported his rage written papers, to the heads of faculty, along with one Professor's threat of quitting, unless the "educated members in charge of that college, did something, like maybe contact the police well in advance of the day of reckoning.

Nope, they have all the answers, no guns allowed on campus by anyone, and all obeyed, except the sick animal/criminals, that don't obey any laws they don't agree with, along with, rather than contact the Police, they rather keep this disturbing news quiet, not to make the college look rather unattractive to its supporters, and handle it themselves.

They get an big F.. for failure to act sensibly, and do the right thing well in advance of the 30 days when this nut started his final chapter in his, well known, well read, road to destruction.

So, to anyone with half a brain, I say, backup, smell the roses, it's not lack of gun purchase restrictions, or passing more laws until you finally have disarmed all the good citizens that now, and in the future, do, and will take this responsibility second to none.

And if you still think more gun restrictions will work, ask yourself, why not have the new, elected, Government of Iraq to ban ALL, and ANY, possession of weapons on it's citizens, and see if that will stop and win the war there.

If it has worked, and can work, here, then it should surely work there.. :cool: and we can bring are troops home very soon... :rolleyes:


There's my extra 2 cents for our country's needed tax programs to work even better.


LS

pax
April 18, 2007, 03:34 PM
Name calling is NOT allowed on THR.

I've deleted a few posts. If yours was one of them, you were over the line. Please review the THR Code of Conduct (http://www.thehighroad.org/code-of-conduct.html) before you post again.

Answer the other person's arguments without calling him names, and without insulting his mamma, his place of birth, his body odor, or his choice of friends.

Thanks.

pax

bclark1
April 18, 2007, 05:24 PM
Secondary sales never require a background check, as far as I know - they don't in Illinois, home of some of the most ridiculous gun laws in the country.

Waiting period wouldn't have made a bit of difference either. He bought the guns well outside of any waiting period that's ever been. Three days, five days, a week? If there had been one, would you have then realized that it did nothing?

Should we restrict sales of gas and fertelizer so people can't make bombs? Put a waiting period on lighters to prevent arson? License people to go in a pool as they might drown another?

Utterly silly. I don't think gun laws are irresponsible, but I do think it's irresponsible for someone that carries to have invested so little thought into the right they exercise.

Bad things happen in free societies. We are in a time of unparalleled naivete in terms of people expecting that someone else is taking care of them. So long as we are free, we must provide for our own care. Things will only get worse until then.

I still have to call troll on this, everyone watch what you say. I'm sure plenty of people fish here for comments to take out of context.

brickeyee
April 18, 2007, 06:01 PM
We like our laws down here just fine.
After a lot of work we have state pre-emption of the county-by-county patchwork we had previously.
Some of the liberal counties are not thrilled with the shall issue rules, but they grudgingly are forced to obey.

As for limits, if you have a permit you can purchase as many handguns as you can afford.

MechAg94
April 18, 2007, 06:32 PM
Thanks Pax!

greenscape
April 18, 2007, 07:07 PM
Some of your response were respectful and informative. The others ?? Well !

I will plead ignorance on the particulars of gun laws in all states. I wasn't trolling nor was I trying to sound anti-gun. I've had guns and enjoyed countless hours of hunting since I was a kid. I fully respect a law abiding citizens rights to own them. I was simply citing what I had read and tried to open an educated dialogue. Apparently, its a touchy subject. One that some are more sensitive about than others. Did not mean to hit a nerve. It was merely a point of discussion based on current events. We should all be careful, being close minded can sometimes be misinterpreted.

I know that the guns used to commit this tragedy may just as well have been an explosive, bus or in the case of 9/11 where 100's of lives were lost with a box cutter to hijack a plane. Its not the gun and I realize that. In fact, we had discussion today at work and you wonder if this had happened in a state with a higher per capita handgun ratio(don't know how Virginia fits in there) if lives may have been saved as a result of an armed citizen.

As the day unfolded today, its starting to look like in hindsight the handwriting was on the wall with this character. Its a tragedy for our youth, learning institutions and most importantly the families.

chemist308
April 18, 2007, 07:30 PM
Let me try help here:
As a permit holder, I have absolutely no problem with the process that I went through to acquire it.
Well if you take the wording of the 2nd Amendment literally and stand behind all 10 in the Bill of Rights, ie: are proud to be an American, where at least you know you're free, then you shouldn't have a process to get a carry (bear), let alone a permit to buy. "...shall not be infringed."
I don't know about the laws in your state, but here in Pennsylvania our state constitution reads "The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the State shall not be questioned." This wording is propably a little more clear and direct in terms of today's spoken english. However I believe it accurately depicts the intent of the founding fathers, especially when you consider that this nation's capitol used to be in Philadelphia, PA.

Apparently, its a touchy subject. One that some are more sensitive about than others. Did not mean to hit a nerve.
Oh it's touchy alright. Here's why: In order of importance the founding fathers thought it 2'nd only to freedom of speech. Trust me it'd be worse if you talked about permits to speak openly--infringing on our 1'rst Amendment but it would certainly wake the rest of the country up to their rights under the 2'nd Amendment, as it was in large part intented to ensure the rest of the Bill of Rights remained and that we never fell to a dictatorship, internal or otherwise, without one hell of a fight--remember some folks wanted to make Washington king and that mentallity was understood by our founding fathers as evil. Washington himself turned down the offer.

The concept here is simple. Generally we believe in all 10 in the Bill of Rights. We believe that those who exchange a little freedom for a sense of security deserve neither. Sound radical? It shouldn't. It's a 300 year old paraphrase from one our nation's founding fathers.

Anyone who wants a gun can get one, even if it's not legal--there is a black market for criminals and criminally insane folks. Study after study shows us gun control laws increase crime and actually decrease the security of law abiding people, which should come as no surprise as it goes in accordance with what our founding fathers tried to tell us 300 years ago.

ACP
April 18, 2007, 07:38 PM
Secondary sales of a handgun (but NOT a long gun,for some reason) in CT require a background check by state police (they give you a confirmation number), paperwork on the private seller's part, and you can ONLY sell to someone who has a CT FFL, which requires a personal interview in the first place with your local police chief, personal references, an FBI background check, fingerprints, and a photograph.

That's the way it should be with deadly weapons. (flame away).

This guy had been involuntarily committed to a mental institution in the months/years leading up to his massacre (just reported this evening in the media). That's a definte red flag in CT and likely grounds for a denial of permit and/or purchase.

There are a lot of good arguments being made in this thread and other threads about the coming hysteria over gun crimes, and how more federal gun laws won't so anything to stop criminals, etc. I agree.

But I also submit that FFL applications and gun sale laws should be EXACTLY THE SAME across the country, and that in exchange for that we get a national FFL carry permit that is good for all 50 states, D.C. and Puerto Rico.

Partisan Ranger
April 18, 2007, 08:44 PM
The fact is that VA gets better ratings from the Brady bunch than many other states, such as my home state of Ohio. Not that I think an 'A' from Brady is a good thing! I'd prefer VA had an 'F' from Brady than a C-.

Waiting period would have been useless here. The jerkoff bought the Glock more than a month eariler. Are you proposing a 6 month waiting period?!

One gun a month also useless in this case. He bought 2 guns over a couple months I believe.

I guess you could look at improving the background check system. But then you are getting into issues of lengthy checks that make people wait days or weeks. And issues of medical privacy if you want to have mental health issues searched in a background check.

I am of the opinion that VA and other states should loosen restrictions on concealed carry. Allow the few people who bother to get permits (less than 1% in VA) the chance to shoot back.

chemist308
April 18, 2007, 08:47 PM
That's the way it should be with deadly weapons. (flame away). Okay...so only special people can sell one of their guns? Hold that to "...shall not be infringed" and see how it compares. Here in PA you go to the FFL, he does the transfer paperwork just as he did when you transfered to you, but it's just a phone call to be sure the person getting the gun is not a registered felon or fugitive.
This guy had been involuntarily committed to a mental institution in the months/years leading up to his massacre (just reported this evening in the media). That right there is grounds not to buy the weapon here in PA. I'm starting to think the gun was obtained illegally in VT massacre, because if you check yes to that question or it gets flagged in the phone call I'm pretty sure you don't get the gun.

ACP
April 18, 2007, 09:38 PM
No Chemist, anyone can sell one of their guns. It's who they sell them to that's the problem.

"Shall not be infringed" is no more holy than the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" or "peaceful assembly " -- except you can't rape that pretty girl if it makes you happy, and people often need permits to hold rallies. Firearms ownership comes with a lot of resposnibility -- NOT JUST THE RIGHT -- and part of that responsibility is to ensure that sane, law-abiding people are the ones who own firearms. Or would you have 7-year-olds buying and driving sports cars?? After all, it is their "right," guaranteed in the Constitution.

The gun was obtained legally. If there is a question about mental stability on the VA form, the murderer could have just lied. Happens all the time, I'm sure. My point is that I'm sure some states applications and subsequent background checks (upon each new purchase) vary widely. And they shouldn't.

I believe the best defense for reponsible gun owners when situaitons like this arise is to express the obvious: did someone game the system, if so how, and how can we prevent it from happening again?

wjustinen
April 18, 2007, 09:48 PM
Greenscape,
I'm a college student, father, grandfather and concealed firearm license holder. Unfortunately that license isn't valid in Canada where I live. You would likely consider our laws reasonable, unless of course you think your life and that of your loved ones is important.

The fact is that they are unreasonably restrictive given that they do no more to prevent school shootings - by disarming the bad guys - than Virginia's or any others do.

The right to keep and bear arms was recognized by the framers of your constitution as being so important - they even gave one reason - that the government was forbidden to infringe upon that right. Your laws are full of infringements, and each one exists only because someone was willing to stick it to someone else in the name of ---.:banghead:

'nuff said.

cassandrasdaddy
April 18, 2007, 10:28 PM
could anyone substantiate the allegation he was involuntrily committed? i believe it not to be true. i know its just a fact but i'm persnickety about facts and reality

bluto
April 18, 2007, 10:37 PM
greenscape -

You might want to follow your own advice about being respectful. Name calling and personal attacks like calling me "ignorant" don't reflect well on the author [that would be you] - especially a brand new forum member.

I gave specifics about the problems attendant when you approach crime by focusing on the citizens who obey the laws rather than those who break them. I used examples from my own state.

Asking for specifics to back up your assertion is reasonable. If you really want an educated dialogue you'll probably want to keep it civil as well.

alucard0822
April 18, 2007, 10:37 PM
The concept here is simple. Generally we believe in all 10 in the Bill of Rights. We believe that those who exchange a little freedom for a sense of security deserve neither. Sound radical? It shouldn't. It's a 300 year old paraphrase from one our nation's founding fathers.


The right to keep and bear arms was recognized by the framers of your constitution as being so important - they even gave one reason - that the government was forbidden to infringe upon that right. Your laws are full of infringements, and each one exists only because someone was willing to stick it to someone else in the name of ---.

fantastic arguments that put in perspective many modern events and their impact on our way of life. I spend quite a bit of time writing letters, attending hearings in both Annapolis and Washington, and doing my part to stop reactionary people, mostly using junk science and emotional pleas to erode on the freedoms that this country was founded on, my family has fought and died for over 6 generations to protect, and that are taken for granted by millions.

The logic that a law against carrying a gun without a permit, purchasing a gun that was either illegally imported, or illegally sold will deter a criminal of any type when the penalties for murder and robbery don't is the basis of the whole gun control issue. I firmly believe that laws that strip the rights, or add fees and unecesary hassle to law abiding citizens who want to buy a gun for any reason, hunting, CC, HD, or just for plinking are unconstitutional, and deny millions the ability to effectively defend themselves.

With todays technology there is absolutely no reason for waiting periods of any length, buisnesses routinely rely on near instant credit transactions to be sufficient to hand over billions worth of merchandise each year, a simple and basic background check at gun shops should be more than sufficent. Private sales and out of state sales should also be as simple as possible. It has been proven time and time again that gun control has no positive impact on crime, but in instances where states have partially restored peoples rights to self defense and to carry do have a positive impact.

RNB65
April 18, 2007, 10:40 PM
could anyone substantiate the allegation he was involuntrily committed?

There was no commitment of any type. In 2005 he was temporarily detained overnight until he was given a psych test the next day. The judge ruled that he was dangerous to himself and others, but released him and ordered that he receive outpatient counseling. It's not clear if he ever received the counseling.

motorheadjohn
April 18, 2007, 10:57 PM
As noted above, statements on that page of the Brady site are very misleading. I would not doubt they are intentionally misleading.

Also, in their ratings, "Carrying Concealed Weapons Law F No police discretion, no training required, reciprocity" is inaccurate. My Concealed Handgun Permit (CHP) required taking a class including a shooting proficiency test. So, again, Brady is inaccurate and at best spreading misinformation.

IIRC Virginia was the first state to set up instant background checks, in response to the legal requirements to check background. They hit multiple databases in the background check. Why should they take more time, as you suggest, when computers can do it instantly? Shouldn't we all be using technology to make things more efficient?

kcmarine
April 18, 2007, 11:07 PM
I don't think he was trying to support the Bradys. Maybe we should look at that site more often. Make us angrier and realize what we're up against.

alucard0822
April 18, 2007, 11:32 PM
Funny thing about the brady's grading system is that the "worse" the score=the lower per capita instances of gun crime.

greenscape
April 18, 2007, 11:37 PM
As I saw an onslaught of responses that seemed to mis-interpret my post, I used a bad choice of words. I am simply trying to understand the current issues and process the events. I do not claim to be an expert on these issues. As the father of a college student, I guess I am struggling a bit for answers here. Unfortunately, none of them are simple. This ***** gives me a pit in my stomach.

Regards...

Sage of Seattle
April 19, 2007, 01:16 AM
As I saw an onslaught of responses that seemed to mis-interpret my post, I used a bad choice of words.

Would you care to try and re-state your thoughts for further clarification and dialogue?

I am simply trying to understand the current issues and process the events.

So are we all.

jmabbott888@aol.com
April 19, 2007, 02:07 AM
Unfortunatly I live in Kalifornistan, so our gun laws are just a wee bit crappier than Va from what I understand. Here in Cali, you go to the shop, pick your gun, fill out the paperwork, pay your $, then come back in 10 business days & take a handgun test & give proof of a safe or trigger guard, then get vyou gun. How does it work in VA? I saw mention of the checks being done over the phone, how long are the shops on hold for? Is there a "waiting/cooling off period"?

Last question, if the shop got the "background" done & it came back clear, if this guy was a mental case (obvious in hindsight), shouldn't the agency (eg state police, atf, feds etc) that does the check be held liable & not the shop if someone other than the triggerman is to blame?

Ed Meinel
April 19, 2007, 02:25 AM
greenscape sez:I was simply citing what I had read and tried to open an educated dialogue.If you wanted an educated dialog, you could have started by citing State law instead of the Brady interpretation of VA laws.

Partisan Ranger sez:One gun a month also useless in this case.Once again, in VA you can buy only one handgun per month if you do not hold a CCW. CCW holder can buy as many handguns as they please and anyone can buy as many rifles as they please.

And another thing, VA is an open carry state, no permit required. Ya just gotta love that!

jmabbott888@aol.com asks: How does it work in VA? I saw mention of the checks being done over the phone, how long are the shops on hold for?Fill out the paperwork, provide two forms of ID (one must have a picture) and you'll have your firearm in 10-15 minutes.

jmabbott888@aol.com
April 19, 2007, 02:29 AM
Ed, do you all accept transplants from Kalifornistan if they are progun? If so I'll talk to the wife about moving lol. Thanks for the info.

JohnBT
April 19, 2007, 08:48 AM
Good info at the VA State Police site.

www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm

John

Ed Meinel
April 19, 2007, 11:12 AM
Ed, do you all accept transplants from Kalifornistan if they are progun?Sure, I moved here from Redondo Beach. There are lots of job opportunities in NOVA -- I believe the unemployment rate is below 2%.

flashman70
April 19, 2007, 12:03 PM
Do you honestly believe he could have killed 32 people with a baseball bat without someone stopping him?

Arguments like these only help the antis demonstrate that pro-gun types are not rooted in reality.

Well, with advice like this, you have to wonder. From page 13 of Virginia Tech’s “Crisis Resolution Management” policy manual:

"What to Do When Violence Occurs

* Do not physically touch an outraged person, or try to force them to leave.

*Calmly ask the person to place any weapons in a neutral location while you continue to talk to them.

* Never attempt to disarm or accept a weapon from the person in question. Weapon retrieval should only be done by a police officer."

http://www.hr.vt.edu/downloads/CMRmanual.pdf

RNB65
April 19, 2007, 01:46 PM
How does it work in VA? I saw mention of the checks being done over the phone, how long are the shops on hold for?

A lot of bigger gunshops have a direct computer link to the state police background check system. They run the background check while you're filling out the required paperwork. Takes only a minute or two (computers are, after all, really fast). They only have to make a phone call to the state police if the background check gets assigned a delayed status instead of being approved.

JohnBT
April 19, 2007, 02:37 PM
I still can't get over somebody posting a question based on info off the Brady site. I just can't, the more I think about it the more bizarre it is. Was wikipedia off-line or something? Why not trust the government/state police to post the truth about the Commonwealth's gun laws?
___________

I think getting delayed has to do with impulse purchases and poor planning on my part.

The three times I've been delayed were 3:30 p.m. the day before Thanksgiving, noon last Saturday and a couple of minutes to 5 on a Saturday. They all came through in less than an hour, so I figure they were short-handed due to holidays or lunch schedules. I've had a carry permit for many years, so I knew they were going to approve me.

John

http://www.alumni.vt.edu/images/Hokie_Strong.gif

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