[WonderNine]

What's the best stuff LIIIa or L4 or whatever. Will a 30-30 defeat this? I assume a FMJ would do better than a typical soft point hunting round. Only Winchester used to make FMJ 30-30, but apparently they don't anymore and I don't believe anybody does. I was thinking of using the Power Point Plus as a home defense load, but that is also softpoint I believe. Anybody have any suggestions? Maybe somebody here could load me some flat nosed FMJ 30-30's?

[Ian]

Level IV will stop .30-06 AP, so no, .30-30 will not defeat it. 'Course, not many people wear Level IV armor with rifle plates around much of the time, or even on burglaries.

For home defense, I think any rifle cartridge would be more than sufficient to deal with invaders, unless you expect to be raided by a SWAT team...:uhoh:

[Kaylee]

Before anyone starts wondering about which JBTs wear what and so forth and so on....

I'm certain WonderNine means his question to refer to potential Freelance Home Invaders and other cretins in cases of legal defense of self, family, and home.

Ain't that right, Nine? ;)



-K

[WonderNine]

Before anyone starts wondering about which JBTs wear what and so forth and so on....

I'm certain WonderNine means his question to refer to potential Freelance Home Invaders and other cretins in cases of legal defense of self, family, and home.

Ain't that right, Nine?

Yes, exactly right.

[only1asterisk]

30/30 will probably punch everything up to level III. Level IIA is what most people wear. Level III is too heavy, bulky and expensive.

Dave

[Art Eatman]

Seems to me this is once again an issue of probabilities. It is improbable that one's home actually be "invaded" by Bad Guys wearing any sort of body armor, unless you are a very, very attractive high-dollar target. It is improbable that the "typical" burglar would wear body armor that is bulky--and rifle-stopping gear is bulky.

I have read that a basic problem for the average person who is unused to violence is that after one punch or strike, the person stops to see the effect of the blow. This can be a Big Mistake.

Within this psychology, then, it is reasonable that the average homeowner might shoot, and then stop to assess the result. (Too many movies.) Again, possibly a big mistake. All that counts is whether the threat has stopped or not stopped; if the threat is still upright--still a threat--after a hit from a rifle, don't stop shooting. (Skunk, that's true "tactical".:D)

Again, one does not shoot to wound or to kill. That is purely incidental to the shooting to STOP the threat.

Art

[Steve Smith]

Amazing how Art posted exactly what I was thinking. If you are enough of a target for your aggressors to USE that level of body armor, you know it. In fact, you are in one of the mig mafia families or your last name is "Calderone" or something similar.


Keep your nose clean and you won't need to worry about punching though.

[seeker_two]

I'm certain WonderNine means his question to refer to potential Freelance Home Invaders and other cretins in cases of legal defense of self, family, and home.

Although you may want to be prepared for the occasional Rogue Mall Ninja w/ Trauma Plates Duct-Taped To His Vest...;)

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Shoot for the head-----then you don't have to worry about it----lol.

[willyjixx]

mall ninjas????

i must have missed the joke.


i think even wearing body armor gettin punched by a 30-30 slug comin outa rifle would put somebody down for the count just for the sheer blunt trauma. no penetration thats great but a center mass shot in the chest area sure would take the fight outta most folks!

[Cosmoline]

The mall ninja would be waiting for you --- on the ceiling! You would be dead before you realized you were dead, and then your body would smply fall to pieces. But your eye would still twitch a little.

"Oh, I thought you said you were a Ninja!" Donald Rumsfeld.

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

This should give a little insight on the whole mall ninja thing.

www.mallninja.com

[Gewehr98]

You could probably afford a perimeter defense and drive an armored Navigator, but if you're looking for penetration in a .30-30, perhaps the Remington Accelerator sabot rounds. Also, handloaded spitzers like the Nosler Ballistic Tip or Partition, in lighter weights, may hold some merit. I have loaded some surplus military .30-06 black tip bullets in .30-30 for my old Savage 340 bolt action, but you're limited to single-loading, and not a lot of velocity with that heavy bullet.

[ElAlumno]

Level IIA is what most people wear. Level III is too heavy, bulky and expensive.

Actually, most wear/use the II or IIIA since that is generally considered "concealable" body armor. The III and IV are considered "tactical" and worn external vests over the uniform.

Class IIIA will stop most all handgun rounds but not rifle rounds. to get protection from rifles you need to move up to a III.

[WonderNine]

i think even wearing body armor gettin punched by a 30-30 slug comin outa rifle would put somebody down for the count just for the sheer blunt trauma. no penetration thats great but a center mass shot in the chest area sure would take the fight outta most folks!

I agree. Even if they were wearing heavy plates (highly unlikely), a 30/30 centermass chest shot at close range is probably going to send them through the wall anyways. Without plates, it will likely penetrate and even if it doesn't they'll have a broken ribcage. Of course a headshot is always the safest on home invasion goblins.

[Al Thompson]

I've seen photo's of a guy taking a .308 round on heavy BA. No massive disruption. If the recoil won't throw you through a wall, the bullet sure won't throw a target either.

No major blount trauma is reported from the current fighting either. Lots of 7.62x39 is getting stopped.

[WonderNine]

:(

[Sir Galahad]

All I got to say is I hope your walls are thick enought to stop these .30 cals that'll be lying around your domicle if someone breaks in. Errant rounds hitting innocent third parties provides lots of propaganda for the antis. Especially when some with knowledge of firearms research the bad shoot and find posts like this. Excuse my vehemance here, but, THINK about where EVERY round is going to go. The percentage of thugs that will be wearing armor is less than 10%, but the percentage of .30 cal rounds that will go right through the average house wall made of drywall, stucco, and 2x4s is 100%. Boy, what's with all the .30 cals advocated for home defense these days??? No one has a bulletproof head and shoot a few honeydew melons from house range and you'll see how easy it is to score on a target that size with a shotgun. I'm sure someone will be here to "prove me wrong", but I can rest knowing I've warned them.

[Cosmoline]

Is a possibility with all cartridges, including the .22 LR. Every time you miss, you overpenetrate. There isn't much to the average house these days besides drywall and some 2x4's. It's far, far, far, far FAR better to shoot once and kill dead with a .30'06 or .308 than to shoot fifteen times and miss half your shots with a pistole, like the COPS do all the time.

It's spray and pray that kills innocent bystanders, not any particular kind of cartridge.

[Sir Galahad]

No, it's people using the WRONG TOOL for the job that cause overpenetration. Not many people take a hit from a 12 gauge and get back up. But PLENTY get back up after a hit from FMJ .30 cal. Except the 4 year old next door hit by the "just passing thru" .30 FMJ.

[WonderNine]

Well I'm sorry sir, but the criminal is the one who is ultimately responsible for making someone have to shoot a rifle at them. And I don't have money right now to pick up a Winchester Defender 12 gauge.

[AZRickD]

It is improbable that the "typical" burglar would wear body armor that is bulky--and rifle-stopping gear is bulky.

We often have stories in the press here in Phoenix about home invasions with the perps not only wearing body armor of all types, but shouting "Police," "FBI," or "ATF."

One of these was about two miles from my home in a typical neighborhood.

Rick

[Cosmoline]

Really, who gets up after taking a point-blank hit from even a FMJ round from a .30'06 or .308? Obviously, a HP is better. But come on.

I suspect the myth of "overpenetration" was invented to boost handgun sales.

[Sir Galahad]

Cosmoline, surely you've seen the threads where .223 is lauded over 7.62x39 for it's ability to produce more tissue-disrupting wounds? Yes, people have gotten back up after FMJ hits. This has been discussed before under different topics. Overpenetration is a myth? So, then, I was just imagining that I saw a .308 FMJ go right through almost 1/4" of plate steel and keep going the other day? Must have been an illusion.:rolleyes: Of course, a bullet that goes through plate steel won't penetrate drywall. Silly me.:rolleyes: Nothing needs to "boost handgun sales". They sell themselves. If I have to explain THAT, well, I doubt it'll take anyway. That remark alone leads me to believe you really don't know a whole lot about handguns anyway, so I'll leave it at that. Hey, go right ahead and use the rifle. But it'll be you that has to live with an innocent life on your conscience if worse comes to worse. You can say "so what" now, but I'll guaruntee you won't be saying it if, Gods forbid, it happens.

[AirPower]

if the 30/30 wont' defeat armor, what kind of damage will 12GA do? it'll be a blow to the chest, but no penetrations whatsoever

[Sir Galahad]

Again, who has a bulletproof head? The whole armor thing is hysteria. "Oh, no! They might be wearing armor!" First, the assumption is made that the armor is 90% to 100% effective in providing personal cover from all gunshots other than high-powered rifles. It is not. It only covers the chest/upper abdomen (with most vests). A hit to the femoral artery will bleed a man out pretty quick. A shotgun blast to the lower abdomen/groin not covered by the vest is not noted as painless. At the LEAST, if the guy even survives, he'll be shopping for shoes to match the bag from a wheelchair for the rest of his life. Seen a guy years back who lost a whole arm to a single blast from a 20 gauge at close range. Kind of hard for a guy to shoot at you when the hand holding the gun is lying on the floor. Kind of hard for him to see you, too, without a head. But, 90% of the time a hit to the chest is end of story, roll credits. Call Rug Doctor.

[matis]

What about a lance or crossbow?


quote:
_________________________________________________
Kind of hard for a guy to shoot at you when the hand holding the gun is lying on the floor. Kind of hard for him to see you, too, without a head. But, 90% of the time a hit to the chest is end of story, roll credits. Call Rug Doctor
_________________________________________________


:...end of story, roll credits. Call Rug Doctor."


Sir Galahad, you ARE FUNNT!


Do you write for a living (if not, you missed your calling)>





Matis

[ACP]

NIJ threat levels link:

http://www.pacsafety.com/armor/nij0101.04-standardsbrochure.pdf

My Second Chance SC229 series is Level II rated; 158-gr. JSP .357 Magnum at 1,395 fps and 124-gr. FMJ 9mm at 1,175 fps.
It also features a 5"X8" Spectra Shield front trauma plate.

[ElAlumno]

I’m not trying to be rude here, but too many opinions seem to be based on Hollywood and not reality.

a 30/30 centermass chest shot at close range is probably going to send them through the wall anyways.

Perhaps in a Rambo movie, but in reality it may not even knock the person down. Vests are designed to spread the impact over a large, flat area. Hence a lot of the energy is dissipated.

My partner took a hit from a 12ga at about 15 feet. The only reason he went down was he was trying to get out of the line of fire. He got a heck of a bruise but not broken ribs and no flying through the air and walls.

Really, who gets up after taking a point-blank hit from even a FMJ round from a .30'06 or .308?

Many, many people.

[Cosmoline]

You're 100% right about not getting knocked into the air.

But please tell me who has gotten up after a point-blank hit with a .308 or .30'06. I admit I might be wrong about this. Please give me examples, though. I just find it extremely hard to believe. At close range the muzzle blast and pressure wave alone is enough to knock you senseless or even kill.

[Sir Galahad]

Matis, I don't write for a living, but I bet I could write a better book than Hilary. I'd have a detachable coupon in my book good for $10 off at participating gun shops. Plus, the cover would be a beanbag so when you're done reading it, you can use it as a rest.

A crossbow is a weapon not to be trifled with. It only has one shot, but that one shot will do a LOT of damage. Lots of vests can be penetrated by broadheads, especially ones traveling at crossbow velocities. Now, I'm not here saying to run out and replace your firearm with a crossbow. But what I am saying is that were you to find yourself in a situation where you could not possess a firearm of any kind, then a crossbow backed up by some long-reaching edged weapons, would certainly work. Some of the broadheads that are on the market will open up a chest cavity like a pinata, except the prizes that fall out aren't as easy to clean up after.

[Sir Galahad]

IF the muzzle is pressed to the head, yes, the pressure can kill. As in Brandon Lee killing himself with a blank-loaded .44 mag he pressed to his temple and fired. But from, say, ten feet? No. Read around some reports of WW2 and you'll find stories, documented stories, of guys shot with 8mm Mauser, 7.62x54, .303, and .30'06 who did not drop and kept on fighting. That's the stuff Medals of Honor and Silver Stars are made of: Wounded, often seriously, and kept on fighting.

[ElAlumno]

Sir Ghalahad has it correct. You can go here to see that many, many people have taken such hits and have gone on to do spectacular things.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

[Freightman]

Go buy some watermellons shoot one(about the size of a human head) with a FMJ rifle, at ranges that will be in a house, then shoot one with a 12 with 00 buck.
The results will be evident.

[Cosmoline]

Well the accounts on that website are worth reading and re-reading for reasons well beyond our little debate. But so far I just don't see anyone on it who took a point-blank hit with a rifle round and kept on fighting. I see a lot of soldiers with arm or leg injuries from shrapnel or a bullet from some unspecified source. That's impressive, but it doesn't get to the core of the matter.

I'm going to keep looking through those accounts when I have time. Anyone with the interest please feel free to help. It's really got me curious. Can a man take a torso, head, hip, or gut hit at close range from a full-powered centerfire rifle firing FMJ rounds and still keep on coming?

[Sir Galahad]

The point is still overlooked. Maybe a .30 cal FMJ will stop, maybe it won't. But what it WILL do is exit BG, go through your walls, and then, where does it go? Neighbor's house. Point is, there are plenty of other things that will stop a BG with less overpenetration. Anyone who seriously believes in .30 FMJ for home defense with close-in neighbors better have himself a good lawyer. And even that might not help. Even if you get off, so? You have an innocent life on your conscience for the rest of your life. Can you live with that? Every couple years, someone has to re-invent the wheel in home defense. Body armor is a possibility, but not so great a possibility that it warrants obvious extreme danger to innocents, in my opinion. That's why you don't see too many people advocating things like .44 Magnum or .454 Casull for home defense, even though those rounds would more than settle someone's hash. You will be accountable for EVERY shot that leaves your weapon in a SD shoot.

The FMJ round is not designed to kill or even to stop. It's main purpose is to wound and tie up other personnel attending to the wounded. In the early days, it was also made to facilitate better feeding in semi-autos and automatic weapons. All I've got to say is if you use .30 FMJ in a home defense shoot, you better pray hard that the perp IS wearing armor because now you've entered the realm of a fail-to-stop and overpenetration killing an innocent third party.

[Steve Smith]

I completely agree with Sir Galahad. That's why I posted what I did earlier. The threat of body armor clad intruders is rediculously low.

[Skunkabilly]

Oleg on the .30-30 ballistics:

http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/s_30-30works.jpg

*disclaimer: Skunkabilly has no ill feelings towards JBTs, in fact he'd give up his guns and banjo to go and marry one 6,000 miles away :o


Al Thompson:
I've seen photo's of a guy taking a .308 round on heavy BA.
Who volunteered for that?? :eek:

[Cosmoline]

--First of all, is it preferable to shoot 15 rounds of 9mm at someone or one round of .30/30, assuming both are using good SP bullets? There's really no contest. Each round of 9mm that misses will "overpenetrate." The .30/30 is very unlikely to miss at close range. Moreover, the .30/30 is likely to take care of things with one shot, which is far better for liability reasons.

--Second, is it reasonable to use FMJ rounds for fear of body armor? If used on an intruder at close range, I really don't think they're going to be getting up again. But others strongly disagree. I'm going to withhold my judgment on this until we can gather some more real-world data.

--Bottom line--a HP or SP from a .30/30 on up will work against most vests. In the unlikely event that a goblin has extremely good armor on, you can just aim for an unarmored part.

[ElAlumno]

But so far I just don't see anyone on it who took a point-blank hit with a rifle round and kept on fighting.

Okay Cosmo, every person ever hit by a .30 FMJ instantly fell down and ceased any activity....

Needless to say, some people rely on hype and Hollywood to make their decisions on firearms and HD.

The .30/30 is very unlikely to miss at close range.

:rolleyes:

[ElAlumno]

Although painfully wounded in both legs and knocked to the ground during the initial moments of the fierce fire fight, L/Cpl. Anderson assumed a prone position and continued to deliver intense suppressive fire in an attempt to repulse the attackers. Moments later he was wounded a second time by an enemy soldier who had approached to within 8 feet of the team's position.

Although wounded by the initial burst of fire, L/Cpl. Barker boldly remained in the open, delivering a devastating volume of accurate fire on the numerically superior force.

When he reached the leader's body, Sergeant Benavidez was severely wounded by small arms fire in the abdomen and grenade fragments in his back…He was wounded again in his thigh by small arms fire while administering first aid to a wounded team member just before another extraction helicopter was able to land.

Within 50 yards of the enemy M/Sgt. Adams was knocked to the ground when pierced in the leg by an enemy bullet. He jumped to his feet and, ignoring his wound, continued on to close with the enemy when he was knocked down 4 times from the concussion of grenades which had bounced off his body.

The entire site is filled with like stories. Grievously wounded men continue to survive and fight.

Sorry Cosmo, but your are ignoring too many factors of the desire to survive and fight that many men have. Read the stories and see how many of these men went on and on, never giving up.

[Cosmoline]

Impressive, YES! But still, I don't see any that fall within these parameters--FMJ at close range from a full-power centerfire rifle to the hips, gut, chest or head. Some may have survived such a hit, but to get up and keep going? You'd have to be super human.

[Cosmoline]

"Needless to say, some people rely on hype and Hollywood to make their decisions on firearms and HD. "

I agree completely. That's why I'm hoping we can get beyond the conventional wisdom and get to real-life accounts. I've lost count of the number of Sillywood characters who take hit after hit from rifles and keep going.

[uglygun]

Why so much emphasis on FMJ?


Really, at centerfire rifle velocities, it's not so much the construction of the bullet that defeats the armour but rather it is the sheer velocity of the round.


The kevlar/spectra doesn't have enough time to respond to the impact of the bullet because the velocity at time of impact is so great. It just can't "give" or "catch" a bullet that might be impacting at 2000+fps. But a sharp pointy bullet tip does help some, much similar to how a knife can usually slice and dice most Kevlar vests meant to stop handgun rounds because so much force is being concentrated onto such a small point.


But I'm betting between an ordinary 30-30 truncated cone hunting bullet and if a similar weight sharp pointy FMJ were to be fired at 30-30 velocities, the differences wouldn't mean a whole lot to the vests.

Velocity makes up a LOT if construction is sacrificed. It's with the handgun rounds where construction becomes all important due to the slower velocities involved.


My home defense carbine is a 223Remington, I don't use it because of fear from armoured home intruders but rather because the longer shots I can expect to face inside my home are to the order of 25 yards(not feet). My confidence levels are much higher with my light and handy carbine than with any handgun or shotgun. I don't much like the idea of limited capacity or compromised accuracy with handguns on the more distant ranges within my hand, especially considering if a shot was to be taken under pressure. I also don't much like the notion of throwing out a large spray from a scatter gun at those longer ranges if a precision shot is needed. Lots of shooting in action rifle matches though combined with lots of experience out varminting has resulted in me selecting a 223Rem carbine for home defense for my current living situation.

If I moved to an appartment where I was surrounded by people on all sides then I'd very likely choose something else, hell even rubber buckshot in a 12gauge might be given consideration depending on the circumstances.

[Sir Galahad]

Cosmo, who said anything about popping off 15 rounds of 9mm? With a good shotgun, loosing off more than one well-placed shot probably will not be necessary.

A .30-30 unlikely to miss? It'll miss more often than not in the hands of someone who doesn't shoot it often. I've seen all kinds of rifles miss. It's the violinist, not the violin. Rifles are more accurate at longer ranges, but that does not mean that within household distances, a rifle is always more accurate than a handgun. In fact, the lever action is not the more accurate manual rifle. The bolt action is. Many modern semis are more accurate than many lever actions. I'm being didactic, but there it is.

[Cosmoline]

This may be a "to each his own" thing. I can't hit a barn with a handgun at any range. I've heard of many instances, local and a few nationally-famous, where cops have emptied high caps at suspects at nearly point blank range and only hit with half their rounds. So it's not just me.

I can't argue with the shotgun, though. Nobody can :D

[Sir Galahad]

I once had a collection of American Riflemans that were dated between 1925 and 1940. One thing that stuck out in my mind about them was the amount of police tournament pistol shoots featured. And the amount of police practicing with .22LR training pistols. More cops should practice often with .22LR as well as their service pistols. I say give raises based on pistol scores. Give a monthly bonus to those with the highest.

The average joe can benefit greatly from regular practice with a .22 handgun. Your skill will increase. You also don't have to have a .45ACP or a .40 or a 10mm or an auto for that matter. The plain old low-recoiling .38 Special has put plenty of bad guys on to permanent retirement at the worm ranch. Out of a revolver, the .38 is very accurate. And the 9mm has racked up a number of bad guys who will never be repeat offenders. Lay hands on a S&W Model 66 with 6 inch barrel. Run .38s out of it. You'll see surprising results. Lay hands on a .22 pistol and practice often. You will be astounded. I no longer own .45ACP or .40 cal because .38 and 9 are so accurate out of my hands, my confidence in them is solid. For a first line of defense, you cannot go wrong with a shotgun. Been serving this country's citizens well for over a couple hundred years now.