Seems Like Many Are Pro-Gun


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Air,Land&Sea
April 18, 2007, 02:15 AM
In light of the tragedy I seem to be hearing more support of the RKBA than opposition. Also, whenever it comes up I say that it could have possibly been greatly minimized if a student or teacher with a concealed carry permit was armed and so far no one really gets into a debate with me (which seems like a new phenomenon). Even my wife has pubicly supported my position which very well might be a first.
Anyone else notice this or is it just me? I wonder if the (successful) Republican candidates for President are going to be no-compromise pro-2nd Amendmenters.

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Ratzinger_p38
April 18, 2007, 02:23 AM
Most attacks are coming from the usual suspects: Europeons, the Chinese goverment (who dont understand why there are no re-education camps here...), Brady, and McCarthy. Being that this happened in VA, you arent going to hear as many anti opinions - Virginians are pretty bright people, blame the shooter - not the inanimate objects he used.

TexasRifleman
April 18, 2007, 02:23 AM
Anyone with a clear mind can look at the facts:

1) Humans are animals
2) The animal kingdom has predator and prey and there are more prey than predators
3) Therefore humans can be predator or prey but most will be prey by default
4) Humans use tools and make decisions
5) Humans can use tools to become predator or prey
6) Humans can decide not to become prey by using the proper tools and changing their mindset
7) Human predators then become the prey when they are outnumbered
8) Human predator makes a decision to stop trying to be a predator after learning that his kind are being killed by their prey who are using the same tools. That or they are all eventually killed off as they continue to try to be predators.


Before guns it was swords, before swords it was pointy sticks, before pointy sticks it was rocks and before that empty hairy caveman hands.

I'm having a really hard time grasping why this concept is so hard for anyone with a third grade or higher education to grasp.

tmajors
April 18, 2007, 02:31 AM
I noticed an initial shift towards gun owners rights last night on the news. One network, can't remember which, had some "expert" from some college or other on. He started into the usual thing of availability of guns and how they aren't banned or some crap like that. The talking head news guy cut him off and went on to something else saying something like "gun control already existed and it obviously didn't help"

However today I've been noticing the usual suspects getting their legs back and crying about high capacity magazines, semi-automatic, and the fact that the guns were purchased legally.

On the streets and offices though I think it is more turning to gun owners. Even people that I know to be anti-gun are starting to say "maybe we should look at law abiding citizens being allowed to carry their weapons". People on the banning side or in the middle aren't flat out changing their minds, but I think a good portion of them are willing to take a second look at the issue now.

Jamie C.
April 18, 2007, 02:40 AM
Could it be that people are starting to notice that all those crazy CCW permit people aren't the kill-happy lunatics they feared?
Could it possibly be that because all of the gun-totin' "cowboys" haven't had daily shoot-outs, or made the streets run red with blood.... that maybe... just maybe... they were telling the truth and the guns ( and honest, law-abiding gun owners ) really aren't the problem?
And that *gasp* they might even be a solution to certain...social ills?


Would be a refreshing change of pace, wouldn't it? :D

Logan5
April 18, 2007, 02:46 AM
Clearly there is no question of deterence through gun laws. I heard some chattering about that on the news, and I thought, "Hell, go arrest him. You know right where the shooter is. In the morgue." It seems to me that they do that purposefully to deny our society any kind of closure, and keep it all on their terms.
Someone on MSNBC was yammering about "Assault Rifles" as well... About how their only purpose was to kill people. The whole situation was a gun control advocate's beautiful dream in that respect; no Assault Rifles were involved except in the hands of the police.
A lot of the media talking heads seem to be calling BS on the knee jerk gun control agenda. With months to prep, any reasonably bright maniac could build all sorts of terrible things. I'm not sure how this guy could have been stopped, but there's no question of him being a stellar individual who was ruined by Glock ownership. This guy put some time into this, and in a crazy way. He had a pretty stupid plan, but it worked.

cbsbyte
April 18, 2007, 02:47 AM
I am also suprised. I was reading a few computer related discussion boards, and the majority of posters seem to fully understand that gun laws did not help in this case, and that maybe CCW is not a bad idea. The ones who posted arguments about restricting firearms, where by and large not even from America.

Though here in Mass most people who I do discuss this topic with seem to want more gun control, not an all out ban, but stricter laws. Then again this is Mass where many people have excepted and want a nanny state.

If the Washington Post editorial fairly points out a rational for CCW on a campus then we have one A battle.

DDrake
April 18, 2007, 03:06 AM
Keep in mind, what you see on this site (and other gun forums) is MUCH different than other non-gun-issues forums. Its important to get the message out to every community we are involved in.

SWMAN
April 18, 2007, 09:02 AM
If all the gun banners want to ban assault rifles and high cap mags, tell them to go see the Department of Defense. Only selective autos are assault weapons.:)

helpless
April 18, 2007, 09:11 AM
We could just get rid of all guns and go back to swords and battle axes! that would be pretty sweet. Every one carried a sword, or a dagger. and then the cops could ride around on armored horses.

Then if someone tried this crap walking into a school to kill a bunch of people, it would be like a scene from robin hood.

--------------Back on topic-------------

Everyone I have talked to, seems to at the very least believe that the teachers and principles should have been armed.

My mother included, who is a teacher.

Lobotomy Boy
April 18, 2007, 09:58 AM
I've noticed the exact same thing. I have a co-worker who's a knee-jerk anti but he is a bright fellow and an asset to our company, and we've become friends in spite of our political differences. Yesterday when we were discussing this I pointed out that if I had been in that room and hadn't been the first person shot, the shooter would have ended his rampage about 56 victims earlier, with five rounds of Speer .38 +p hollow points in his center of mass. Instead of the usual debate, we ended up having a thoughtful conversation about the 6-hour course I took to be able to legally carry a handgun. His comments were all of the, "That makes sense," and, "I'm glad they teach that" variety.

Then last night my wife and I had to go to a department store in a mall that has become completely deserted because it has become a hangout for gang bangers (Brookdale in Brooklyn Center, MN). We only live a few miles from the mall but never go there because it has become a genuinely dangerous place. On the way we noticed that the old government center has been replaced by an elaborate new library. My wife suggested we check it out and I said I wouldn't go there because they probably ban guns. She responded with her knee-jerk anti gun answer: "Well, that's good." I asked her if she really wanted to go to a library across the street from the most dangerous shopping mall west of Chicago without a weapon? I explained the concept of victim disarmament zone to her, and again pointed out that if I had been in that classroom and hadn't been the first person shot I would have ended the rampage about 55 victims earlier. She didn't say much, then asked me, "The class [she has been kicking around the idea of taking a beginner's handgun class as a possible prerequisite to taking a CCW class] is over in just one session, right?"

I've also noticed a shift in media coverage. Yesterday on Minnesota Public Radio's (People's Republic Radio) Mid-Morning program host Keri Miller, a low-rent Terry Gross wannabe who thinks if she can affect an Ivy League accent people won't notice how incredibly obtuse she really is, tried to shift the topic to the gun culture. The guest, a sociologist specializing in violent crime, said the problem wasn't the gun culture, but our culture itself. He said callers who chastized the police and college administration exemplified the problem--they thought that institutions should solve these problems when in reality the parents of these violent young people were responsible for solving the problem. He argued this so well that even a thick-headed dolt like Ms. Miller couldn't return to the topic of "gun culture" without looking like a complete a-hole.

Edited to add: I forwarded a copy of this to MPR.

PILMAN
April 18, 2007, 10:11 AM
Would like to know what forums you guys are posting on. I posted on a webhosting forum, a wrestling forum, a paintball forum, and a few others and most of the responses were "more gun control!" a lot from europeans but from some americans too.

answerguy
April 18, 2007, 10:19 AM
Even Katie Couric made a comment that had me thinking she understood the issue. Last night she said (something like) "It wasn't the gun that caused this tragedy...". I almost fell off my chair until she continued; "...it was the high capacity clips(magazines) that allowed this to happen".

coyote_jr
April 18, 2007, 10:33 AM
What we need more than anything right now is a competent, knowledgeable gun owner as a spokesperson. I cannot stand when these antis on tv and radio say "clips" it is killing me, we nedd someone to sit there and say "it's called a magazine.'

Anyone catch this moron Shrum(?) on Hardball last night? Oh lord was this guy butchering the terms and who do we have defending us? Oh man as I'm writing this I can't remember his name..unreal...anyway the guy couldn't counter with correct terminology, it is just so hard to watch when the avg HighRoader would hand the anti his a#$ within 30 seconds....someone please get on TV

Tarwater
April 18, 2007, 10:48 AM
I don't suppose we could get Oleg or someone similar on. I don't think an actual, articulate person would get much airtime on these networks.

I saw McCarthy on a channel yesterday "debating" with a senator from my state, and the senator was getting shouted down by her AND the host whenever he tried to make a point.

VanEasten
April 18, 2007, 11:05 AM
I agree that the reaction to this shooting is a bit different than in the past. Sure there are lots of people screaming for gun control. Same people as always. The difference is, now our side is getting told too. I also noticed even McCain and Giuliani chose not to jump on the gun control bandwagon for political gain.

It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

ozwyn
April 18, 2007, 11:49 AM
I think there may be some kind of post-katrina holdover effect with the police response delay and what may be a growing feeling that in the end people have to try and take care of themselves.

I think that's a good thing for gun rights advocates. The shooter could have done the same massacre with a revolver just as effectively, and the message that the old AWB did nothing might (maybe) have sunk in.

In addition, we had a few school shooting this year. the amish shooting might have served to prove to even the diehard liberals that doing nothing accomplishes nothing.

If this was pre 9/11, gun owners who value their rights would be in serious trouble. But its been a rough decade so far and things have changed. Not enough, but its starting.

Air,Land&Sea
April 18, 2007, 11:53 AM
I guess there'll always be those who lack courage that prefer the easy approval of others who also lack courage, but maybe things are swinging back into the correct direction a bit.

gunNoob
April 18, 2007, 11:59 AM
I did a poll on another forum (bimmerforums) and the results were nice.

Pro = 170
Anti = 30

coyote_jr
April 18, 2007, 12:53 PM
Wow great segment just now on msnbc with pat buchanan and another guest both trumpeting the ccw cause...on msnbc:what:

Outlaw Man
April 18, 2007, 01:09 PM
I think more people are finally starting to realize that disarming law-abiding citizens and relying on the police to be there the instant it hits the fan isn't working. It's probably almost unanimous across the country that something needs to change. I just hope more people (and at times it looks that way) are starting to realize that going further down the path we've been on for 20+ years with gun control isn't the right direction.

Helmke said yesterday that we needed some middle ground on the gun issue. We're already at a middle ground, Mr. Helmke. Automatics are legislated almost out of existance, concealed carry is only allowed in certain states in certain places, people can get sued and even thrown in jail for defending themselves instead of running away. I honestly don't want to see the "middle ground" between that and absolute slavery. And what happens when that "middle ground" doesn't work? We'll seek another "middle ground" between that and slavery.

Now is the time to make a stand. The federal court in DC ruled that individuals have a right to firearms for their protection. 32 people died in a manner proving said protection will not come from any other source. We've tried it your way for 20 years, Brady. How 'bout we try it our way.

I'm good and fired up, now. I need to write some letters. Sorry for the slightly OT rant.

Kaylee
April 18, 2007, 01:12 PM
Aside from the "well we tried that, and it didn't work" effect, I think a good deal of the change is that it's a side effect of the widening of the media outlets.. blogs, forums, more TV and radio stations - there's not the groupthink stranglehold of opinion in the national outlets that there was ten or fifteen years ago.

This time around we still hear "ban everything" crowd, but the "what about self defense" crowd actually gets a chance to talk as well on an equal footing - and people are listening.

Add in the fact that in state after state CCW hasn't resulted in daily "road rage shootouts, blood in the streets, yadda yadda" ... I'm cautiously optimistic that we at least won't see anything bad pass Congress and the President, and might actually see something productive in the sane states.

-K

JimmyN
April 18, 2007, 01:31 PM
I agree, it does appear that gun control is losing popularity, but the big cities are a tougher sell. The citizens are already disarmed, and therefore would prefer that nobody had guns, since they can't have them. They will fight gun rights for the rest of us, due to their own situation.

Plus the anti's have cried wolf for so long I think the citizens are getting tired of hearing it, as none of the nightmares forecast by the anti's ever came to pass. They said that the lapse of the 94 AWB would result in blood flowing in the streets as these bands of murderers, armed with now legal assault weapons, would be coming down your neighborhood street to shoot your children. But it didn't happen. Each state passing "shall issue" laws was predicted to become Dodge City. There would be shootouts on the road, in the malls, and at restaurants as the citizens would be settling their arguments with firearms. That hasn't happened either.

I think most citizens are starting to look at gun control like the war on drugs that was going to put a stop to illegal drug use. Even though common sense and history (prohibition) indicated it wouldn't work, none want to vote against "feel good" legislation. Banning something has never stopped it, but only made it more lucrative and desirable.

They can't even keep drugs and weapons out of the Federal prisons, how are they ever going to keep them off the streets. I think America is finally starting to wake up, legislation is not going to stop criminals, the only option is to protect yourself and family from those that would do you harm.

TamThompson
April 18, 2007, 01:38 PM
Fox News Austin had a very nice piece last night about it, featuring Suzanna Gratia Hupp, the woman who was in the Luby's Cafeteria with her parents when the idiot burst in and started shooting in 1991. Both of Hupp's parents were killed because she could not get to the pistol she had locked up outside in the trunk of her car, per current Texas law in 1991.

She went on to run for and get elected to the Texas Legislature and was instrumental in getting CHL passed.

It is heartwarming to see that the majority of the American public--and of course, the vast majority of the TEXAS public--are simply not buying what the anti's are trying to sell.

Our pattern here in Texas seems to be to RELAX gun laws in response to a massacre...which is as it should be.

So yes, I do see this backfiring horribly on them. The Virginia governor has already come out with a statement basically telling the anti's to shut up and leave them alone to grieve.

If for some reason the feds DO pass some horribly draconian new gun laws, then we in Texas need to do the right thing, which at that point will be to SECEDE!

jfh
April 18, 2007, 01:40 PM
And, there has been a change in MSM play on this, too.

Elsewhere, I reference the (Mpls.) StarTribune's poll on the current topic. Anyone who has used that newspaper knows that it historically has been the Liberal, nonthinking PC rag in Minnesota for a long time, and as antigun as possible.

For it to incorporate answers into a poll that included "arm teachers" and "nothing will help" is absolutely stunning to me. When our CCW law came into being four years ago, the antigunner last barricade relied on public fear of school shootings. That, and the "blood in the streets" mantra, of course. Poll questions at that time were really biased to 'how much more antigun law do we need?"

Over the last two days, I've made a point of checking the usual suspects' BBds--the NY Times, WA Post, etc., etc. There is much more input from progunners than ever before, and progrunners are not being silenced.

IF public outcry demands 'congressional action' it may be that we can get by with another thread the needle bill--you know, we've agreed to outlaw assault-weapon-magazines-over-15-rounds-from-being-sold-to-resident-aliens. And, I wouldn't even bet on this one; it appears the Democrats, as a group, do understand this topic is the third rail for them.

Jim

SoCalShooter
April 18, 2007, 02:01 PM
I am actually quite surprised myself with the MEDIA I have been able to actually watch the news other than getting upset and kicking my TV. I said it once and I will say it again, I think the anti's are going to take more of a beating on this than we will. Why?

1. They jumped on the anti-gun ban wagon immediately before the blood had been soaked up.
2. They do not have the media on their side.

Caimlas
April 18, 2007, 04:07 PM
Could it be that people are starting to notice that all those crazy CCW permit people aren't the kill-happy lunatics they feared?

Yep. Many more people are reasoning along the lines of, "Hey, I know Jim, and he's really into guns. He's a good guy - he helped me move a sofa last Summer and we had a couple beers after work last month. He'd have done something if he were there." or "Hey, Susan has a CCW - if she'd been there, I'd have wanted her to be able to defend herself."

richardschennberg
April 18, 2007, 04:16 PM
I think many people are catching on that most of these mass shootings are happening in so-called "gun free zones." Unfortuantely the campus security is very sparse, and their training probably gets them to take cover while unarmed but innocent victims are shot.
I wonder what the reaction would be if we played "Devil's Advocate," and said: "it's a shame that all of those people were killed, but we can't trust liberal Professors and their left-wing students with guns."
I understand that some states prohibit guns on campus while others (such as Kentucky) leave this decision to the school's President.
IMO the optimum choice would be to allow faculty and staff to have a gun in their vehicle, and to carry concealed if they have a permit.
Richard
Schennberg.com (http://www.schennberg.com)

TEDDY
April 18, 2007, 07:13 PM
I lived in mass when high schools had rifle clubs.I still am member hopedalepr club.and member goal.
Its the culture thats changed but may be its changing back.

xd9fan
April 18, 2007, 07:32 PM
Aside from the "well we tried that, and it didn't work" effect, I think a good deal of the change is that it's a side effect of the widening of the media outlets.. blogs, forums, more TV and radio stations - there's not the groupthink stranglehold of opinion in the national outlets that there was ten or fifteen years ago.

This time around we still hear "ban everything" crowd, but the "what about self defense" crowd actually gets a chance to talk as well on an equal footing - and people are listening.

Add in the fact that in state after state CCW hasn't resulted in daily "road rage shootouts, blood in the streets, yadda yadda" ... I'm cautiously optimistic that we at least won't see anything bad pass Congress and the President, and might actually see something productive in the sane states.



I agree.

The internet just made the media (and news for the matter) subject to the free market.


I still dont trust most politicans........look at their record....not their lips moving.

coyote_jr
April 18, 2007, 08:04 PM
Oh my good Lord Tucker Carlson just absolutely destroyed Carolyn McCarthy on his show...did anyone just see that???? :what:

ArfinGreebly
April 18, 2007, 08:42 PM
I'm going crazy here.

I see guys reporting that Hades is experiencing Global Cooling, I can't tune in, and there are no transcripts!

Aaarrrrgggghhhh!

. . . but we can't trust liberal Professors and their left-wing students with guns.
Hmmm. Interesting. However, once you put a gun in their hands, they move perceptibly away from the "pegged left" position.

So, guys, how 'bout it?

Can I get some transcripts?

Mortech
April 18, 2007, 08:54 PM
I think alot of this maybe due to the fact Cho was found incompetent by a magistrate in 2005 thus should not been able to purchase a firearm . Now the question is going to be why wasn't he in the NCIC database as per state regulations ????!!! I feel a tsunami wave of CYA coming on from the progovernment (read BIG brother ) advocates of gun control .

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