AP: U.S. gun laws draw heat after massacre


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nwilliams
April 18, 2007, 02:29 AM
Sorry if this article has been posted already, so much news out there its hard to keep up.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_re_eu/virginia_tech_world_view

Some real gems this article, how about

"Only the names change — And the numbers," read a headline in the Times of London. "Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"


"I think if this does prompt a serious and reflective debate on gun issues and gun law in the States, then some good may come from this woeful tragedy," said British Home Office Minister Tony McNulty, who graduated in 1982.

"If the guns are harder to get a hold of, fewer people will do it," said Michael Dent, a 65-year-old construction worker in London. "You can't walk up to a supermarket or shop and buy a gun like in the States."

Oh there are so many more, its reading things like this that make me want to buy a new gun tomorrow. Oh wait there's a gunshow this weekend, guess I can wait.

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Ratzinger_p38
April 18, 2007, 02:34 AM
The UK is becoming like France and the mainland Europe. They get all their knowledge of the US from their own MSM, which hates America, so they spread the propaganda.

Funny, I had to go through a background check to get my M1, which, unless modified to only fire 1 shot at a time, would get me ten years in a UK 'prison'. No super market instant gun buy. I am a regular at my local shop, so they have no reason to think im a straw purchaser or the like.

Its funny to me what outright lies the euros will believe. Since their emerging overlords (the EU) hate the US, it will only grow worse.

mordechaianiliewicz
April 18, 2007, 02:40 AM
To me, the EUroniks have no right to talk about us. In 25 years, when the "moderate" Muslims in their countries outnumber them, and totally change their society through the ballot box to reflect Muslim values, they will wish they had guns.

And, as everyone said, the Europeans believe anything that they are told about the U.S. gun culture. Whatever.... screw 'em.

LAR-15
April 18, 2007, 10:09 AM
Folks from Europe are allowed to vote for members of congress from Puerto Rico.

So their opinions DO matter. :rolleyes:

22-rimfire
April 18, 2007, 10:26 AM
The article is really quite good in presenting views around the world. I don't know if the author has an agenda, but frankly I don't care. But, my impression is that the World in general views US gun laws as being too lax. What does the world know?

"Only the names change And the numbers," read a headline in the Times of London. "Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"

The French daily Le Monde said the regularity of mass shootings across the Atlantic was a blotch on America's image.

"It would be unjust and especially false to reduce the United States to the image created, in a recurrent way, from the bursts of murderous fury that some isolated individuals succumb to. But acts like this are rare elsewhere, and tend to often disfigure the 'American dream.'"

"I think if this does prompt a serious and reflective debate on gun issues and gun law in the States, then some good may come from this woeful tragedy," said British Home Office Minister Tony McNulty, who graduated in 1982.

Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year.

But even in Germany, where gun-control laws are strict, a teenager in 2002 shot and killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two students and a police officer at a high school. The shooter was a gun club member licensed to own weapons. The attack led Germany to raise the age for owning recreational firearms from 18 to 21.

The Swedish daily Goteborgs-Posten said without access to weapons, the killings at Virginia Tech may have been prevented.

"The latest attack on a U.S. campus will shake up America, maybe it will provoke more vigorous reactions than in the past, but it won't change the culture of a country that has the notion of self-defense imprinted on its DNA and which considers the right of having guns inalienable," Corriere wrote in its front-page story.


Underlined statements added for emphasis. All of the countries mentioned do not grant the common man the freedoms that are alienable in the US. The Germany reaction was interesting to the school shootings; they raised the age requirement for the entire country because of one incident. Australia's strict gun laws all happend following a incident in Tasmania. They restricted the rights of all Australian citizens because of one incident.

Yes, if all guns were illegal in the US, eventually, there may be fewer gun related deaths. But in my opinion, the price in loss of liberty is too high for a hypothical gain. Freedom is not free.

I do think that the VA Tech events may well spur discussions on gun issues throughout the US. It really is time. The gun control debate has not been news for a long time. Even Rush Linbaugh was discussing the topic on his show and that is a rare thing. The results may be positive to 2A supporters. Like everything else, this debate is like a double-edged sword. Everybody gets cut in a fight. Let the games begin!!!!

Tim James
April 18, 2007, 11:02 AM
"Only the names change And the numbers," read a headline in the Times of London. "Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?""If the guns are harder to get a hold of, fewer people will do it," said Michael Dent, a 65-year-old construction worker in London. "You can't walk up to a supermarket or shop and buy a gun like in the States." Take a moment to absorb this and understand what they are saying. There is no concept of a moral right to defend one's life with the best tool available; there is only an assertion that banning all guns will at least reduce the number of deaths or number of crimes by 7.3532% or wahtever.

Here in America (at least the right-thinkers), we would rather let 10 guilty people go free than convict 1 innocent man. In the same way, we'd rather let 10 people get gunned down in a gang conflict, massacre, or domestic dispute than let one little old lady get knifed thinking as her last thought, "I could have stopped this if I hadn't been disarmed."

obxned
April 18, 2007, 12:05 PM
"The latest attack on a U.S. campus will shake up America, maybe it will provoke more vigorous reactions than in the past, but it won't change the culture of Corriere wrote in its front-page story.

As far as "self-defense imprinted on its DNA", I actually DO have a right to not sit quitely while a madman kills me. Maybe in Europe, this style of suicide by stupidity is the fashion, but not here.

And YES, we are "a country that has the notion of and which considers the right of having guns inalienable," because we are! Our Constitution says so. For more than 200 years we have defended that Constitution. During that time we have seem numerous governments disarm and then murder their own citizens by the millions.

Thanks for your comments, but I think I'll keep my firearms!

xd9fan
April 18, 2007, 12:15 PM
To me, the EUroniks have no right to talk about us. In 25 years, when the "moderate" Muslims in their countries outnumber them, and totally change their society through the ballot box to reflect Muslim values, they will wish they had guns.

This is so true. They will learn the hard way (like us) that Govt-based equality will never work. They should be (we as well) running toward our Bill of Rights.

The euros being peaceful...I love it!! Its just really hard for them to remember that we did not start the two world wars...we stopped them!!

22-rimfire
April 18, 2007, 12:27 PM
The same thing could happen here with immigration and high birth rates in what are now minority groups in the US.

Speer
April 18, 2007, 12:49 PM
To me, the EUroniks have no right to talk about us. In 25 years, when the "moderate" Muslims in their countries outnumber them, and totally change their society through the ballot box to reflect Muslim values, they will wish they had guns.

No way in Hell would I want to live in Europe.

Zundfolge
April 18, 2007, 12:52 PM
"Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year

Blaming the American "gun culture" for mass shootings is as intellectually honest as blaming all black people for gang violence.

Deanimator
April 18, 2007, 02:18 PM
The serfs are posting this tripe in usenet. It's not going well for them...

Colt
April 18, 2007, 02:29 PM
All those who give a rat's patoot what europeans think about our 2A rights, say "Aye!"

<crickets>

Why don't we go ahead and get the UK opinion on the Declaration of Indepedence while we're at it. I'll value that opinion just as highly.

Checkman
April 18, 2007, 03:06 PM
England. The country that recently announced it will no longer teach about the Holocaust in it's schools because Muslims find it offensive. Oh yeah I really care what England (and the rest of Europe) thinks.:rolleyes:

cbsbyte
April 18, 2007, 03:10 PM
I worry less about what people in the rest of the world think about about our gun laws, and more about what people here believe. It seems that in some parts of this country many people want more gun control similar to Europe.

Katigroszek
May 25, 2007, 04:12 AM
I'm from EU (Polad) and I'm a lawyer. I generally have a bad opinion on US laws (those I know of) but it does not apply to gun laws. I wish my country had gun laws like that so I could get my dream rifle without the need to write tons of papers, taking examinations and having (expensive) conversation with a psychiatry doctor. It is humiliating. I was astonished (pisitively) that after the college shooting general US citizens reaction was to allow more US citizens for a concealed carry. That is exactly a right thing to do!!! I was afraid that the reaction be to forbid it at all, as more anti-gun people will yell to do so.

But, as I wrote earlier, my general opinion on US laws is negative and I have very good reason for it (becouse of my occupation).

That difference betwen me and americans is, in my opinion, not enough to "screw me" as Ratzinger_p38 and mordechaianielewicz would like to do. And if You two think it is - screw You! At least I know who Mordechaj Anielewicz realy was.

the pistolero
May 25, 2007, 11:07 AM
That difference betwen me and americans is, in my opinion, not enough to "screw me" as Ratzinger_p38 and mordechaianielewicz would like to do.
With all due respect, Katigrozsek, I don't think they were talking about you and those who share your opinion. No doubt if more Europeans shared your opinions on guns, American gun owners would think more highly of them. As it is now, it seems so many of them think we should be fending off robbers & other miscreants with pointy sticks instead of boomsticks.

selector67
May 25, 2007, 11:42 AM
I remember not to long ago watching a German news segment on American gun culture, and what they showed was the Knob Creek machine gun shoot in Kentucky, and the perception you got watching it was that all Americans own machine guns and artillery pieces, flame throwers, shooting everything in sight.:fire: No wonder the europeans think were all a bunch a gun nuts, because that is how we are portrayed by there media. Gullible europeans, they believe anything there media feeds them. :cuss::cuss::cuss::fire::fire:

atomd
May 25, 2007, 11:53 AM
They seem to all have this notion that in the US you can just walk into any store and walk out with a machine gun, there's shootouts on every street corner, and everyone is armed to the teeth with their finger on the trigger. I think they watch too many movies or spend too much time in front of their fictional news programs.

MD_Willington
May 25, 2007, 01:07 PM
well ignorance exists on both sides of the pond, they figure we have guns everywhere, we figure they have no guns at all...

PILMAN
May 25, 2007, 02:21 PM
I highly doubt if all guns were banned in America that crime would be curbed. Honestly I don't think guns have anything to do with rising crime, some citys with lax gun laws have high crime, others don't just like some areas with gun control have high gun crimes and others don't.

Europe while they tend to have low gun crime and murder rates never really appeared to have issues with murder even before guns were banned.

Yet we look at areas like Mexico, South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, India and others with strict gun laws and the murder rates are very high.

We do have crimes of passion yes but that doesn't make up the majority of our murders in this country, with open borders and illegal aliens flooding in from all directions take into considering the gangs, racist minoritys coming in from Mexico, the wealth (crime appears to be higher in poor areas) etc.

Drugs are big money, criminals want to protect their investments.

America is probably organized crimes place to flourish considering how many get into politics, it's no surprise they want the law abiding citizens disarmed so they have power over us.

Even if we get to the point guns are banned for public sale, it would only be a matter of time before people start constructing their own guns like in Pakistan (where in cases they are making them by hand) or how the Israelis made casings out of metal lipstick tubes and built sten guns. There are guides all over the internet to make shotguns and bolt action rifles. I hate to compare us to a 3rd world country but that's what we are turning into with the borders open, disarming us will only make it worse.

jlbraun
May 25, 2007, 02:41 PM
@Katigroszek

I was astonished (pisitively) that after the college shooting general US citizens reaction was to allow more US citizens for a concealed carry. That is exactly a right thing to do!!!

Na zdrowie!!

James T Thomas
May 25, 2007, 02:49 PM
This thread reminds me of the comment by one or two of our Supreme Court Justices, when they said our laws should be modeled after those in Europe!

And that was from those who had sworn to obey, enforce and uphold the United State Constitution!

Onmilo
May 25, 2007, 03:01 PM
I fought some big fights for God and country.
I am too damned old to willingly give up any hard earned rights at this point.
They can kill me but I doubt they are going to eat me.
Screw the EU, they can subject their loyal followers to anything they wish to tolerate.
They can just keep their socialist noses out of the affairs of a real country IMHO

Henry Bowman
May 25, 2007, 03:05 PM
"Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, [removing] restrictions, such as [they have done in Utah], could at least reduce the number?" There. Fixed it to make sense.

Deanimator
May 25, 2007, 03:06 PM
I'm from EU (Polad) and I'm a lawyer.
You're Novy Europa!

Everybody LIKES you... and the Czech Republic and Hungary, etc. :D

benEzra
May 25, 2007, 03:14 PM
You mean, give up our freedoms and become like the UK?

This UK?

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e396/OGEWU/cctv2.jpg

No, thanks...

BTW, last time I checked, the U.S. homicide rate was only 1.5 times that of Germany, not a huge difference.

joab
May 25, 2007, 03:23 PM
if all guns were illegal in the US, eventually, there may be fewer gun related deaths.To quote one of the great thinkers of my time
"Would it make you feel better if they was all pushed out of windows"

CypherNinja
May 25, 2007, 03:36 PM
LOL. Wasn't there a UN report a while ago that said the UK is now the most violent developed country?

Johannes_Paulsen
May 25, 2007, 04:26 PM
God, I'd love to hear how they think we're supposed to round up 200 million + firearms without turning into a fascist state worse than Cuba or North Korea.

As for me, I'm perfectly willing to give up a little security to gain a little liberty. In fact, people in almost every other country in the world expect that. I see no reason to emulate them.

HiroProX
May 25, 2007, 04:39 PM
I'd love for them to articulate how you'd go about infringing a guaranteed right wholesale, and confiscate 200,000,000+ firearms without provoking a violent resistance that would make the IRA and ETA combined look like amature hour.

Crunker1337
May 25, 2007, 04:41 PM
Two things - it's not that easy to buy guns, you still need to go through NICS checks (which is a very good idea), and what do non-Americans know about America. I don't know a thing about Europe and I don't claim to, so I have no idea what course of action another country should take.

Turkey Creek
May 25, 2007, 05:41 PM
Is this the same bunch of yoyo's that we decided some 231 years ago that we didn't want ruling us?- Seems to me that we kicked butt and sent them packing- We didn't give a hoot what they thought then, so why should we be concerned now?- Those clowns are even more screwed up today than they were over 200 years ago- I can't believe we bailed them out twice- In retrospect maybe we should have minded our own business?-

In their minds they are still living in the past history of their long defunct empire- Head to head they would have a tough time with the French, and we all know how inept that outfit is-

Zundfolge
May 25, 2007, 07:47 PM
God, I'd love to hear how they think we're supposed to round up 200 million + firearms without turning into a fascist state worse than Cuba or North Korea.
They don't expect us to round up 200 million + firearms without turning into a fascist state worse than Cuba or North Korea.

selector67
May 25, 2007, 08:03 PM
Here is a good article on the subject. http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

Ratzinger_p38
May 25, 2007, 08:47 PM
That difference betwen me and americans is, in my opinion, not enough to "screw me" as Ratzinger_p38 and mordechaianielewicz would like to do. And if You two think it is - screw You! At least I know who Mordechaj Anielewicz realy was.

Hey Poland and most of the other post-communist bloc states are a different ball game. I have more respect for most of them than I do western Europe. I understand Poland is very religious, Catholic mostly as am I.

But you have to understand, everytime there is a gun crime widely reported on, I see too many Euro medias types using it for anti-american propaganda.

Things I like better about the US than the entire world.

1. Our 1st amendment. Yes, I see people getting prosecuted in (mostly western) Europe for 'crimes' like holocaust denial, or 'hate speech'. (makes me wonder if in a few years the bible will be banned in western Europe for being labeled 'hateful' toward gays) That kind of thing, short of 'imminent law breaking' is not criminal. Unpopular, but not criminal.
2. Yes, and of course our 2A. Sure there are other countries with wide and realitivly high levels of gun ownership (Canada and New Zealand come to mind) but it is never guaranteed. Not a right. When I bought my M1 Garand I held it and thought, "wow America really is the best country in the world".

748
May 25, 2007, 11:03 PM
This is the kind of crap that makes me own guns.
Now I feel like adding a 22LR suppressor and a .45 cal pistol-sub machine gun suppressor to my collection.

CypherNinja
May 26, 2007, 05:22 AM
Deanimator: Please excuse my ignorance, but Google has failed me. I'm interested in knowing what "Novy Europa" means.

Thanks. :D

the pistolero
May 26, 2007, 08:14 AM
"Novy Europa"
New Europe?

Waitone
May 26, 2007, 08:15 AM
Ever wonder why anti-gun types kept quiet after Virginia Tech? One theory is they figured popular sentiment would not support more ineffective legislation when previous ineffective legislation demonstrably failed.

A way of getting broad gun control in this country is to bypass the legislature and introduce it though the courts (previously mentioned) or via treaties with countries or organizations like the UN or NAFTA, or LOST or Agenda 21, ad nauseum. Watch the fireworks over the SPP this summer. We are in the process of unwinding our sovereignty and gun control is merely another item on the punchlist.

Deanimator
May 26, 2007, 09:02 AM
Quote:
"Novy Europa"
New Europe?
Correct!

You win a date with Basia! :D

Katigroszek
May 26, 2007, 09:04 AM
Actually there are some people in the world (EU too) that have SOME idea of the US so why not hear them and than express Your feelings about their opinions and argument them rather than turning Your back on them.

Problem is not that EU people hate US or US citizens but that the opinions that reach the media come from politicians who always try to make some points in future elections.

And the press which is always hungry of shocking news. That is why when I first heard of college shooting I thought that it will be shortly followed by gun restrictions as all anti-gun people will start to shout the same old thing they ever do.

Another problem is that europeans are not used to treating firearms as a tool, that is incapable of making any harm by itself. They treat it as a "bad thing" becouse it is capable of causing death or injury. Most people here never see a real gun all their life and in TV they do not see sport shooters, only some crap movies when people shoot each other.

Actually EU gun laws are less restrictive than it were in Poland till now and becoming part of EU will benefit polish shooters or wanna-be-shooters as gun law is said to be about to change.

And about America - is it really the greatest country in the world? First thing it would take someone that have been to all the countries to judge that. And the second - it probably is ... for americans. Please remember, that it was a time some of You remember, when Germany was said to be the greatest country of the world and there were people who tried to make it the only one available. It took a lot of shooting to prove it wrong. And than was ZSRR (USSR, CCCP)... I doubt any American would like it to happen with the US.

the pistolero
May 26, 2007, 09:04 AM
You win a date with Basia!
Suh-weeeet. Does she like Texas accents and 1911s? :D :D

Katigroszek
May 26, 2007, 09:07 AM
I think everybody does!

Bob M.
May 26, 2007, 09:10 AM
....of All In The Family. It was Archie Bunker to
Gloria debating gun control. I LMAO when he said that. I think he also said that arming all airline passengers with .38s would stop hijackings too.

"Would it make you feel better if they was all pushed out of windows"

Katigroszek
May 26, 2007, 09:10 AM
Oh - one more thing! I think polish people will have chance for easier access to automatic weapons as situation in Ukraine is graviting towards civil war and Russia gets very interrested in it. It's enough to join the army;)

No official news on that, but I think part of our army is already relocated to the east of the country... Just in case.

jselvy
May 26, 2007, 11:56 AM
It is readily apparent that these people are unable to learn from their own history.
The US had to supply weapons to the French resistance because they didn't have any of their own.
If they keep this up, we'll have to do it again during the next go-'round

Jefferson

Deanimator
May 26, 2007, 12:01 PM
No official news on that, but I think part of our army is already relocated to the east of the country... Just in case.
And this time, you've got nothing but friends to the west!

If the Russians can't beat the Chechens, they sure can't beat Poland AND Ukraine!

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