9mm for a post-novice handgunner.

[Thundercleese]

Ok. I own a 1911 and a Colt Python (yeah, when I buy, I -buy-). Both guns can still shoot better than I can (especially the snake) but I've got > 6000 rounds between them (WAY more if you consider the 22 conversion on the 1911). I'd call myself solidly "not really a novice any more. Sort of. Pretty much".

And now I'm casually (stress : casually) thinking about a 9mm. If I were to get one, I'd buy something quality. Not a custom job, but not a $400 gun either. Primary use is something a little cheaper for target shooting. That, and a little "rounding out" of my caliber capabilities.

My priorities are pretty much as follows:

- TRIGGER. Can't stress this one enough. I've gotten so used to the SA trigger on my 1911 that I'm totally utterly spoiled on DA or SA/DA triggers. My friend has both a Beretta and a USP and I find their triggers pretty hard to work with (yes, I'm a bigot). It's not even necessarily the lightness of the single action so much as it is the fact that I don't have to have my finger curled ALL the way over when the thing finally locks up. All the SA/DA's I've ever shot feel crooked in my hand when the trigger is finally ready to break. More finger curl == more Thundercleese innacuracy. Anyway, trigger trigger trigger.

- Grip. I'm not a huge fan of the wide-a$$ grips you have on a standard double stack pistol. My hands are average sized and having to grip a wide double stack makes shooting all the more harder. The grips on my Python are just barely tolerable.

- Construction/reliability/safety. I don't really like the feel of the plastic/polymer guns. Anything that creaks or squeaks (or feels like it should) when I pick it up feels weird. I'd like a gun that I can pick up and not have to worry about standard malfunctions, factory QC issues, sights whizzing off, ammo temperability, unsupported chamber hilarity, or other annoyances that come up the first 2-3 range trips.

- Sights. The thinner the better. Especially the front sight. Adjustability would be nice, but not critical.

So - I know I'm one picky SOB. Basically, I'm looking for you guys to give me an excuse to drive the 2.5 hours one-way to the nearest serious gun shop to me and try everything out. What're your recommendations?

Edit : I'm pretty much thinking auto here. A stupendously cool revolver might do the trick, but I don't think that's really gonna happen.

[Skunkabilly]

If you have money to spend, a P7M8.

[sm]

Check out the Sig's, for something different perhaps.

I personally prefer Single action guns, both JMB designs.

BHP is my next favorite gun.

Since my favorite is 1911 style in 45 ACP, make that drive to your gunsmith and run a custom gun idea by him.

If you do decide to go custom, Caspian frame and slide, single stack 9x23. 1911 style. The grip/platform is what your already used to, and the balllistics...sweet! In a commander size-the perfect carry gun perhaps. I've been shooting one. I will have one someday of my own.
---

http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=X923W&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU9YZ3lNeUJYYVc1amFHVnpkR1Z5K0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1icmFuZGxpc3QrQUQwLTIrQUNZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGUrQUQwLW5vbmU=

125 gr STHP

yds) Muzzle 50 100
Velocity (fps) 1450 1249 1103
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100
Energy (ft. lbs.) 583 433 338
Distance (yds) 50 100

http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhproductsheet.aspx?symbol=Q4304&qrystr=Y2FydGxpc3QrQUQwLU9YZ3lNeUJYYVc1amFHVnpkR1Z5K0FDWS11c2VsaXN0K0FEMC1ub25lK0FDWS1icmFuZGxpc3QrQUQwLTUrQUNZLWJ1bGxldHR5cGUrQUQwLUpTUA==

124 gr JSP

Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100
Velocity (fps) 1460 1308 -
Distance (yds) Muzzle 50 100
Energy (ft. lbs.) 587 471 -
Distance (yds) 50 100

Edited:left out part of my cut and paste

[Shweboner]

You might want to check out the Sprongfield XD. I absolutely love mine, Trust my life to it everyday. Ive never had one problem in nearly 1000rnds. The trigger is absolutely amazing. After getting one and shooting the hell out of it... I am obsessed with it. its great.

Go out and handle one.... look it over, feel the trigger pull (or lack thereof) You'll love it. An all around great pistol.


~Brian

[Rich357]

I think you would enjoy the S&W Performance Center 952. I have a PC 952-1. It is the most enjoyable to shoot semi autos I have. It is also beautifully made. It is easy to shoot very small groups. (I also have Colt Python and Colt Gold Cup.)

The S&W PC 952 may not be on your gun store's shelf. I had to call S&W and find out which distributor had them and then convince my local gun shop to get it. My local shop had first said they couldn't get the PC 952. It takes some work to get them. but IMHO, it is well worth the effort.

I know you don't like plastic guns but the Glock 17 is surprisingly accurate when you get used to the trigger.

Good luck,
Rich

[denfoote]

Got what you need right here!! :D

http://www.stiguns.com/

[Rich357]

Hi denfoote,

Have you ever tried an STI 9mm? Do you have first hand knowledge of the STI 9mm?

Why do you continue to knock the Glock 36 in your postscript when you admitted nearly 6 months ago that your G36 worked fine before you modified it? Why blame Glock for something you did?

Rich

[CWatson]

All of my 9mm are wide body plastic except for my P38.Very good SA trigger pull and easy to thumb cock for the first shot instead of DA/SA.Very ergo grip shape.The alloy framed P1s are selling for less than $300.The Star Super Bs are 1911 style except no grip safety,all metal and well made.If you go the Star make sure you get a 9mm parabellum and not 9mm largo,or try and track down a 1911 9mm.

[only1asterisk]

You can get good deals on SIG 220 right now. Single stack mags, but it is DA/SA. Good SA pull though. Springfield and STI make various 9mm 1911's. Browning HiPowers make nice pistols for people with small-average hands, but I don't know of any I'd be happy with without at least a little work. My favorite 9mm was a HK USP, but you probably would have trouble with the grip. I'm not a real Beretta fan, but the 92 Compact L Type M might interest you. I think CDNN has the parts needed to convert 92's to single action for $40, but don't trust my memory. If you want to go top of the line, there is the SIG 210. Good luck finding that one gun that works for you.


Dave

[denfoote]

Rich,
No, I do not have any direct experience with STI pistols. Not that I do not think the are a fine product, I just am not into 1911 pattern pistols!! :D I suggested it because I knew that this company makes a 1911 chambered for 9mm Parabellum.

As touching the Glock 36 question, check your e-mail!!!
I have a Glock 26 and MK9. The Khar MK9 is a better pistol!!!

[Majic]

Since you ruled out the DA/SA pistols, I recommend the Browning High Power. They have a good trigger that can be tuned, relative small grip considering a double stack magazine, and balances well for most shooters. Custom service and parts rival that of the 1911s so they can be personalized.
They have been in service since 1935 world wide so it is a proven design.

[firestar]

It sounds like a Hi Power is what you are looking for. With a trigger job, they should work just fine for you. Also, the grip is the smallest I have seen on a double stack pistol so it should work for you.

[grenadier]

I will also echo the agreement that a Browning Hi Power may be the right gun for you. Do things right the first time, though, and get a genuine Browning.

The Eastern European knockoffs are either hit or miss, in terms of quality. Some of the Eastern Block BHP clones are great, some are terrible, some need fluff and buff.

[natedog]

I second the XD.

[MJRW]

What about the Beretta Billenium?

[Handy]

How about a Danish refinish Sig 210? SA, suuuuper accurate, cat's pajamas, etc.

Can be found between $1100 and $1500.


The old HK P9S is also incredibly accurate. It has a DA trigger, but also features a thumb cocking lever to go right to SA. $600 to $1000. Single stack, right handers only.


Also love the P7 - M8 or PSP.


Never heard anything bad about the STIs - the BLS is an interesting departure.

Revolver - the short lived S&W 547 chambers and ejects 9mm without moon clips. Groovy design.

The original Beretta 92 had a cocked and locked thumb safety and a neat looking round trigger guard. That would be a neat one, but the grip is huge. Nevermind.

Otherwise, the Hipower and CZ-75 SA are old standbys. Lot of cheap BHP mags around right now. Slim grips for double stacks. All steel.

[Mr. Black]

BHP :D

[Berg01]

BHP or CZ 75B with a 4 lb action job & afermarket sights (Novak Lo Mounts or Heinie Slant Pros); it is probably easier to get quality pistolsmith work done on the BHP, but this work can be done to the CZ, and the results are awesome!

[valnar]

I fail to see the issue with SA/DA triggers. Just cock the first round then.

I like the SIG's myself. If you could afford the SIG P210, you'd be in heaven.

-Robert

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. Based on your parameters and since you already have a 1911 and are more than familar with it, I'd suggest a long hard look at the STI Trojan 6" Longslide. In 9mm, recoil is nil, accuracy is superb and reliability remains perfect at least in my limited experience. The front sight is nice and thin.

I prefer it to the P210.

Second choice would be the Browning Hi Power Mk III, but the trigger might very well need a trigger job. The STI will not and is single-stack althought he Browning's grip is extremely small for a double-stack pistol.

Best.

[Thundercleese]

I've seen one recommendation for the C75B. Anyone have any thoughts on the C75 B SA? Seems pretty BHP-esque.

[Shmackey]

Regular Sigs and XDs are fine, but if you're looking for a great trigger along the lines of your 1911, forget it.

If you don't want a 9mm 1911, look into that Browning HP, or an HK P7 for something interesting. If you can afford that Sig 210, go for it.

Yes, the CZ SA is BHP-esque and a very nice gun. A perfectly good option, but you said you didn't want to spend only $400. :)

[Thundercleese]

Well, I was more used to the "standard" range for a 45 being in the $800 range. Seems like $400-$500 seems to be "standard" for a solid 9mm. No complaints if I have to pay less :)

[Shmackey]

Well, I don't know if I'd go that far. That's CZ pricing, which is a pretty good value. BHPs, on the other hand, are like 1911s, in that you can't resist tweaking them (i.e., throwing money at them). Besides, apart from CZs, getting an SA-only 9mm actually jacks up the price often enough.

If I were going to break my bullseye-calibers-only rule, and go back to 9mm, there's no doubt that I'd get either (1) an HK P7 or (2) a 1911 with 9x23 and 9x19 barrels. 9x23 is the cat's ???.

[Marko Kloos]

Based on your criteria, I'd recommend a 1911 in 9mm, or a Browning HP. Both of those guns have very manageable grip sizes and great ergonomics.

The SIG P210 is another option, but the price tag on those things is coronary-inducing.

As a huge CZ fan, I'd throw the CZ-75 SA into the mix, but I haven't tried one of those, so I'd be speaking from a position of ignorance. However, my two CZ-75 DA variants are my favorite 9mm handguns, beating out all the Glocks and SIGs I've ever owned. The ergos on the CZ are superior to even the 1911, at least for my hand.

[litework]

I would recommend the Springfield XD9, too.

[Thundercleese]

From left field : how about the Baby Eagle 9mm? It's SA/DA, but looks nice and compact-ish.

[CWatson]

It is basicly the CZ with cosmetic changes.CW

[Mikel]

I'm a pretty big fan of the SIG lineup, about the sample a XD.

[9mmepiphany]

if you can appreciate a python, you owe it to yourself to get a HK P7...either the M8 or PSP... it takes that big step beyond the run of the mill

[only1asterisk]

Just got an email for Mike, the head gunsmith for CZUSA regarding a full length guide rod for my CZ97B among other things, among them, converting CZ's to single action only. I was really surprised that they let him do this, but it seems to be quite commom. The cost is $120 plus shipping. It would appear cheaper to but the factory SA model, but it that is only available one configuration. iEvolution Gun Works has a good reputation for CZ work on www.czfourm.com. Is this gun to carry/home use, or just for the range?


Dave

[cleve land]

BHP-BHP-BHP:D

[Tamara]

The ergos on the CZ are superior to even the 1911, at least for my hand.

Your hand could be reported to the HUAC. ;)

[Dr.Rob]

BHP

FEG clone or Argentine copy... both of which could use better sights, but a good way to get a budget pistol.

CZ 75 SA.

[modifiedbrowning]

Thundercleese, checkout the Walther P99. It is a polymer frame pistol, but it is the best of the polymers. The SA reset is very short and you can carry it in DA or SA if you wish.

[JeepDriver]

Three suggestions:


1. Browning Hi-Power It's a classic. They are slightly more then your $400 specification but worth the price. The grip isn't as wide as some of the other double stacked 9mm and it's a single action. And there are so many gun smiths that have really tricked out packages for them.

2. Beretta 92 FS Currently my favorite out of the guns I own

3. Sig 228 My next handgun. I love to shoot Sigs.

[tomthel]

First two that come to mind are the Sig 210 and the H&K P7M8 or PSP. They have consistent light triggers. The Hi Power after a trigger job should be in the 4 lb. range or a bit lighter. If the BHP fits your hand then so should the CZ. CZ offers some single action only variants. I think sights are easier to find for the BHP, though although they can be had for the CZ. There also is the S&W 52 which looks interesting. Bernadelli when they were in business had some interesting all steel autos that were single action based upon the P. One. They were double stack mags though. Then there was the Benelli P76 which was single stack.

As a side note the Python has the longest trigger reach of any revolver so some double stack mag guns may fit you such as the BHP. I would try them and see.

[Ky Larry]

The CZ 75B gets my vote. It's all steel,reliable,super-accurate, and has a great trigger. You can spend more money but you won't get more gun.

[makarov]

Everyone saying CZ is right, but I would vote for the CZ-85 Combat. Why? They do not have the firing pin block safety so the trigger is a little better. I also think they are finished a little nicer than most 75's I have seen. For range work they come with nice adjustable sights. Mine is in the glossy blue finish and has been great. Put in a reduced power hammer spring and a slightly heavier recoil spring. About 1000 rounds with no failures of any kind and is very accurate.

I also like BHP's and own a real nice FEG PJK-9HP. Of the two I shoot the 85 Combat better.

[10-Ring]

Well, my recommendation would be a HK P7M8.

[CZ-100]

I've got a CZ-85 Combat, fits Perfect!!!:evil: