Improving Accuracy of .223 Loads?


PDA






Grump
April 18, 2007, 03:58 PM
I was ready to say the barrel was CRAP when I test-fired some factory loads with [Sierra? Nosler?] 69-gr HPBT Match bullets. Group size went down by half at 200 yds!

Okay, so I'm thinking maybe it's harder to find an *accurate* load in .223 than it was with .30-06 or .308. With those, almost anything with a match bullet would do 2 MOA guaranteed, and 1 MOA or under with 5 or fewer test loads.

It's NOT working for .223. I'm seeing no difference other than $1-$3/100 in price between various hunting bullets and Nosler, Hornady and Sierra match bullets, 52-gr match OR hunting, 53-gr match OR hunting, 55-gr SPBTs, 69-gr HPBT Match, and 77-gr HPBT Match. All but one are all shooting between 2-3 MOA!:cuss: The best I've had was a recent 1.5 MOA pair of 5-round groups with 24.5 of Varget under the Nosler 77-gr., which may or may not repeat on the next shooting session.

CCI, Winchester and Federal Primers don't seem to make a difference. All brass is sorted by headstamp, usually using LC NATO brass (as opposed to my older LC M193 brass), which was more uniform in weight than S&B import or WCC M193 stuff.

I'm wondering if the Dillon spray lube should be scrupulously kept out of the case necks. That's the only variable I can think of now, other than firing 100 test rounds per bullet/powder combo to try to hit some elusive sweet spot.

I'm wondering if my shooting ability has declined, then I shoot the .308 and I shoot the factory 69-gr loads and group sizes get back to what I'm expecting.

The offending rifle is a Colt HBAR 1:7, chromoly bore, less than 3,000 rounds of all sorts downrange. Shooting technique is good, other rifles shot the same way do better.

If you enjoyed reading about "Improving Accuracy of .223 Loads?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
April 18, 2007, 05:04 PM
Yes, keep the spray lube out of the case necks.
Trim length is very important.
Only expect best results from fireformed brass.

Pull one bullet from that factory lot that are shooting better then yours. Verify the bullet. Verify the case dimensions and set your die accordingly.

Only neck size if you can.
Experament with OAL and set headspace correctly.
Experament with a different powder/s /charge weights.
Just choose a primer and stick with it.

Every barrel has a load it likes best. And some like certain loads a lot less. Other barrels are more forgiving.

-You've got some reloadin & shootin to do.

-Steve

Clark
April 18, 2007, 07:03 PM
In .223 and 257RAI, I seem to get better accuracy with lighter bullets.

Jim Watson
April 18, 2007, 07:10 PM
Shooting technique is good, other rifles shot the same way do better.

Are those other rifles of AR design? It is not easy to bench an AR without free-float tube. I have tried resting them on the handguard at the very rear and shooting single shot with them supported on the magazine well.

RecoilRob
April 19, 2007, 07:01 AM
The 1in7 twist barrels sometimes don't like the light bullets at all. I'd stick to the 69 Sierra at first to eliminate that variable. It is a great bullet and the rifle should shoot it. It is not the problem.

I have friends that use Varget with modest success. All did better with H-335 for reasons I don't understand. But, I use 335 for my .223's and they shoot well.

Before you go off the deep end, please try a short ladder with some 335 and I'll bet the rifle starts to behave.

redneck2
April 19, 2007, 07:19 AM
One of my friends does real well at Perry in High Power. His "go to" load is 26.0 Varget, WW cases, 55 grain bullet.

My accuracy load is 26.0 Varget, 50 Nosler BT, Federal match primers, WW cases, set out to mag length. Shoots way under an inch in my Bushie Varminter. The .223 actually seems to be way easy to load for in most rifles.

I have friends that use Varget with modest success. All did better with H-335 for reasons I don't understand. But, I use 335 for my .223's and they shoot well.
Varget actually should be a little slow for light bullets in the .223, but it works for me so I see no need to change. H-335 should be better.

dmftoy1
April 19, 2007, 08:33 AM
What COL are you using?

I've had really good luck with those bullets with 23 -23.5 grains of H335 loaded until the tips of the bullets will barely fit inside a standard GI 20 round magazine. No special prep on the LC brass I'm using other than trim/chamfer and sorted by headstamp. FWIW

Grump
April 20, 2007, 01:40 AM
Following up:

COL for just about everything except the 55-gr FMJBTs has been between 2.24 and 2.26, not much difference but out as far as I can mag-feed them, on the theory that closer to the throat is better. Yes, I have confirmed that NONE of the loads jammed ogives into the lands.

All cases have been FL resized. During the first few years, I was getting 3%broken cases at about reload #3, usually with cases that had also been fired in another .223 with a wider but not really longer chamber, but with VIOLENT extraction. Wilson gage sez all those "crush the bottom of the sizer die" loads were truly at min headspace. I tried some with the shoulder set back at max headspace (a few even over max and an interference fit in that chamber).

No change in accuracy.

All cases have been trimmed for the past year.

No change in accuracy.

I've tried up to four different charge weights with a few of the bullets. The changes in accuracy have been from the worst at 4 MOA to the best at 2.5 MOA. This range has included 55-gr FMJBTs from Winchester and Hornady, and the hunting and match bullets mentioned in my first post.

Powders have been H335, W-748, AA-2230C, WC844, 4064, and Varget. NOT all of them with every bullet, but every one except 4064 has been tried with the hunting bullets. Match bullets have been over H335, AA-2230C, 4064 and Varget.

My first disappointment with this rifle was with 69-gr Sierras and 748. The load was fairly light and never got below the magic inch at 100 yards. I don't like paying that much Moolah$$ for 2 MOA.

Yes, its the only AR I've shot for accuracy. The better performance with those factory 69-gr bullets, for EVERY 5-round group, tells me there is hope for the rifle, and perhaps problems with the ammo that I've NEVER had in any other caliber. Heck, I can get 2 MOA out of a box-stock M1 CARBINE shooting my own cast lead gascheck bullets with homemade half ALOX/half moly grease bullets, all without wandering zeros!

After I get done with the large primer stuff, I will try some follow-up loads, 77-gr and 24.5 Varget, degreased case necks and keeping my bullet hand clean from caselube, and see if that helps. Years ago, I actually tried to get a uniform coat of spray lube inside one half of the necks (the stuff seemed to migrate all the way around), and that seemed to have no effect on the .308s I was loading at the time. My cheap bullets loaded that way shot better than the match bullets are shooting out of this AR.

DWARREN123
April 20, 2007, 05:01 AM
Go with a heavier bullet with the 1 in 7 twist, maybe 77 gr.

Grump
April 20, 2007, 02:33 PM
Go with a heavier bullet with the 1 in 7 twist, maybe 77 gr.


Been there, still doing that. See end of 3rd paragraph, original post.

Local supply finally stocked Federal GMM, will try the 69-gr loads tomorrow if I'm lucky.

dmftoy1
April 20, 2007, 08:15 PM
I wish you were closer . .I'd bring over one of my rifles and we'd shoot some of your ammo . . .it sounds to me like you're doing everything ok. I've been using Hornady One-Shot and I don't even bother cleaning it off and I've had no problems. All of my loading has been with H335 though. I did have crap accuracy with the cheap Winchester 55 FMJ (2-3 MOA) but the minute I swapped to Hornady 68's or Sierra 69's things got drastically better. I can easily shoot under 1 inch at 100 yards off the bench. (outside to outside)

redneck2
April 20, 2007, 08:21 PM
Before I spent a lot of time checking other stuff, I'd try the loads in another .223. Try to figure out whether it's the rifle or ammo.

As above....If you were in my area, I'd give you 10 rounds of mine. If they don't go into less than 3/4" at 100, your rifle is bad. If they do, it's your ammo.

snuffy
April 20, 2007, 09:51 PM
What sights are you using?? Scope? Where is it/how is it mounted? My bushy H-BAR has the removable handle with the pic. rail on top of the upper. Mounted directly to the top, a scope is too low, the front sight is in the way. With a one inch rizer, it clears the front sight. Now, with an after market gas block, I can again get the scope all-the-way-down. But it's too low, my old neck won't bend that far, so I'm back to a 1" rizer.

I can get under 1" @/100 with most handloads. An ocasional 3/4 or 5/8 inch group with carefully assembled 69 gr. match bullets. When I kick the dillon into gear with bulk WW-55 sp and WC-844 powder, I can still stay at 1 inch/100. 60 grain V-max and 60 hornady HP will also go into an inch. Mines a 1-9 twist, 20" BBL.

Bullet
April 21, 2007, 12:40 AM
I was ready to say the barrel was CRAP when I test-fired some factory loads with [Sierra? Nosler?] 69-gr HPBT Match bullets. Group size went down by half at 200 yds!

The best I've had was a recent 1.5

The offending rifle is a Colt HBAR 1:7, chromoly bore, less than 3,000 rounds of all sorts downrange.

With the rifle your shooting this might be as good as it gets. I donít think the Coltís were made to be target rifles. I believe these are for combat, 2MOA is plenty good for this. Their triggers sure arenít match grade.

Grump
April 21, 2007, 12:55 AM
Well, it's a Colt HBAR Match Sporter, Sporter Match, whatever.

Marketed as an out-of-the-box target gun. No bayonet lug. No chrome bore. Was made back when "they" all said that putting chrome in a good sub-MOA bore would make it into a 2 MOA gun.

mc223
April 21, 2007, 02:58 AM
My tried and true load for the 69 is 25.3g Varget in a LC case with a Rem 7-1/2 or Fed 205 with a 1 in 9 twist.
The 69s did not perform very well in my long throated 1 in 7.
For my 1 in 7, I use the 75 Berger or 75 A-Max loaded .010 off the lands and single fed. The 77 did not perform as well as I wanted to see and the 80s, well I guess I just didnt take the time to develop a good load.
Realisticaly A 60 or 62 should shoot good from the 1 in 7 and I have had pretty good result with the 60 V-Max. I Moly coat all my bullets so my charges may not make the load manuals. I have used most of the common ball powders and N-140, N540 and N-550, Varget is still my go to powder.

Bullet
April 21, 2007, 02:59 AM
I’ve had a couple of Colt Match Target Competition HBAR’s (still have one) and I didn’t get any better results than your getting. I sold my first one (2MOA, 20 inch 1/7 twist barrel) and kept one with a 16 inch 1/9 twist barrel. I really haven’t tried to see how accurate this one will shoot. Have it around for when the SHTF. If you want a Colt that should shoot better you might check out the Colt Accurized rifle -

http://www.coltsmfg.com/cmci/Accurized.asp

http://www.colt.com/law/car.asp

Or for the price check out the RRA Varminters. Mine (20 inch 1/8 twist barrel) will shoot 2 inch groups at 330 yards (300 Meters).

http://www.rbprecision.com/

If you want one of the best shooting AR rifles look here –

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/

mc223

My tried and true load for the 69 is 25.3g Varget in a LC case with a Rem 7-1/2 or Fed 205 with a 1 in 9 twist.

What velocity are you getting with this load?

Zeke Menuar
April 21, 2007, 05:57 AM
I think I'd try a cut and target crown

Then a FF handguard.

My CMMG 20" govt profile barrel has the 11 degree recessed target crown and FF handguard and I can shoot pennies and aspirin at 100 yards with 55gr UMC ammo( most of the time).

From what I've read, this sounds like something other then ammo.

ZM

Urbana John
April 21, 2007, 07:49 AM
My AR is a Colt HBAR with a 24" SS barrel and I can "consently" hit golf balls at 150 yards with it off a bench rest.

My "loads" are Sierra 52 gr. HPBT on top of 24 grs. of IMR 3031 with a CCI 400 primer.

Nothing fancy, but works well for me!

mc223
April 21, 2007, 01:19 PM
Quote:
mc223

My tried and true load for the 69 is 25.3g Varget in a LC case with a Rem 7-1/2 or Fed 205 with a 1 in 9 twist.

What velocity are you getting with this load?

Bullet
Right around 2800.

Steel Talon
April 21, 2007, 01:38 PM
Have you shot any Black Hills HPBT Match 69 grain through it. If so, how does that group w/your HBAR? If it does group well then their is probably something up w/your handloads, if its the opposite then I would guess that 69grainers are not your rifles "cup o tea"

FWIW

Peace ST~

Zippy06
April 21, 2007, 07:43 PM
Grump.
Last year, did some playing around. Just getting into it so to speak. But, 20 yrs reloading. What's MOA???
I got a Colt HBAR Sporter. 1988. As soon as they came out. Barrel indicates "CMP 5.56 NATO 1/7 HBAR". Receiver indicates .223. And just put a scope on it. It would shoot 1" groups. Iron sights too.
I have Lee dies. 20 yrs old. More playing.
I got the Factory Crimp Die. 100 rounds. 50 Crimp. 50 Taper crimp/seating die crimp.
Saw no difference. But, if the brass is not all the same. The Factory crimp is nice.
Used H-322 & H-335(couldn't find AA2230). 100 yds.
Some old guy, told me, FMJ lead is made back wards. Vice Varmint/match bullets.
Bought Savage 10FP. 168 gn SMK and Varget. 1/2" groups. No Crimp.
I say, go with the last couple suggestions. Maybe, go with one bullet. Same brass. Too many apples and oranges.
What is tearing up your brass? I have brass, been loaded 5-10 times. Some got, some short necks.:D
It's all fun. :D

Zippy06
April 21, 2007, 08:01 PM
Go with Lee lube or Imperial sizing die wax.
One shot gave me 3 stuck cases. And felt sticky when dry.
The other 2 wipe off with a terry towel.

Bullet
April 21, 2007, 08:02 PM
Zippy06

What's MOA???


MINUTE OF ANGLE (M.O.A.)
An angular measurement method used to describe accuracy capability. A minute of angle is one sixtieth of a degree, and subtends 1.047 inches at 100 yards, which for practical shooting purposes is considered to be one inch. A minute of angle group, therefore, equals one inch at 100 yards, two inches at 200 yards, etc.

Zippy06
April 21, 2007, 08:37 PM
Bullet, thanks.

matt33
April 23, 2007, 01:13 AM
Quote:
mc223

My tried and true load for the 69 is 25.3g Varget in a LC case with a Rem 7-1/2 or Fed 205 with a 1 in 9 twist.


+1, although I use CCI BR4 primers
I have a Colt MT6721 (1:9" HBAR) and consistently get under an inch with this load. It was the most accurate load I had tried until Saturday when I shot my first .5" group ever. This load was 27.0 grains of Varget w/ a 60 gr Hornady V-max.

As a side note, Black Hills 52 gr HP's have shot close to or under an inch in every AR I've tried. I've never shot them through a 1:7" though.

Bullet
April 23, 2007, 01:38 AM
Grump

Please let us know how this turns out. You might try some of the suggestions given here. Hope you get your rifle to shoot as good as you would like.

ocabj
April 23, 2007, 12:40 PM
My current loads in a 1 in 7" 20" White Oak are:

[200/300]
Nosler Custom Competition 77gr
Alliant RL15 24.0gr
CCI BR4
LC Brass

[200/300]
Sierra Match King 77gr
Alliant RL15 24.2/24.3gr
CCI BR4
LC Brass

[600]
Sierra Match King 80gr
Alliant RL15 24.0gr
CCI BR4
Lapua Match Brass

Grump
May 14, 2007, 08:22 PM
Looks like it's the barrel. Fired some Fed GMM at 100 yards, and the dispersion was about 4 inches. Even taking out what *might* have been the flyer caused by my son's leaving a bit too much oil in the bore, it's still 3 inches.

The .308 fired just beforehand had one flyer low and right, first shot, and the next 4 in about 3/4-inch.

Both iron sight guns, both fired off of bags (front and rear), both with consistent cheek pressure and no fore-end pull like with a tight sling, and both with identical atmospherics at play--a 6:00 tailwind.

Khornet
May 16, 2007, 01:01 PM
just for grins was to uniform the primer pockets, ream the flash holes, and turn the necks on some LC (XM193) once-fired brass--fired the first time in my rifle.

I used 2230, 20.9 gr, a Hornady 68 gr match bullet, and Remington small rifle primers. Charges were weighed, because I was only making 20 rds.

Using iron sights, and my eyes are getting quite weak so that I have trouble seeing the bull at 100 yds, I got the attached group for 10 rds, and then the same with the next ten. This is a 50% group size reduction from my usual handloads. Rifle is a DPMS CMP rifle wit a 20" 1:8 stainless barrel.

snuffy
May 16, 2007, 02:13 PM
Both iron sight guns, both fired off of bags (front and rear), both with consistent cheek pressure and no fore-end pull like with a tight sling, and both with identical atmospherics at play--a 6:00 tailwind.

It's been years since I tried iron sights. My vision is so bad that I can't see both sights AND the target! If I were to try irons on my AR, I'd expect to see groups over 4" @100 yds. I KNOW for a fact that rifle is capable of sub 1" groups, with an 18 power scope.

If you can shoot better than that, then cudos to you, you're probably much younger than me, with good vision. That damn astigmatism,(or however it's spelled), is the culprit. :mad:

GPWEAPON
May 16, 2007, 02:32 PM
I'd have to agree with you grump I have a hbar with a float tube
and it sucks for accuracy even with a scope. I shot High power and I
know what a good ar can do. I went thru the same crap. A good
upper with an acuwedge will change alot.

If you have an accurate colt your a lucky one indeed.

dcloco
May 16, 2007, 11:31 PM
I am sure that I am in the minority, but I do not like Varget. Chronograph shows it is not consistent as other powders as well.

Try H4895 and work the load up. I use Nosler or Sierra 69 gr HPBT, Fed 205M primers, 25.0 grains of H4895, just about any case, and get AWESOME groups, at 3000 fps out of a 26" barrel.

Yes, I am using a bolt gun, but this load works in AR's as well.

GooseGestapo
May 17, 2007, 07:33 AM
Before you trash the barrel ($200+), try another set of loading dies. (<$25.00)

You may be getting a bit of run-out on your loaded ammo... This will cause the problems you're having.

To check for run-out without about a $100 set up....
place the loaded ammo on a flat smooth surface and see if the tip of the bullet "wobbles" or wiggles in a circle as the rounds are rolled.

I've had several dies through the years that were "bad". The manufactures always readily replaced them.
Either the sizer die is not true, or you're seating the bullet out of line.

The Bench Rest dies cost a lot more because they receive a lot more attention to detail in manufacturing. You really probably don't need a set of bench rest dies, but you DO need a GOOD set.

wcwhitey
May 17, 2007, 07:54 PM
I have a 1:9 twist barrel and use lighter bullets than you but I did learn a neat trick for shooting shorter distances, 100 yds or less. I was told then tried and proved it that traditional flat based bullets work best. The Boat Tails are superior at longer distances but take more distance to settle than flat based. My specific test was Sierra 52 Grain Matchingking HPBT vs the 53 Grain HP. This change alone was worth almost 1/2" at 100 yards. It was extremely evident at a 50 yd range I visit on occassion. This knowledge and a free float tube turned my little 16" DPMS Low Pro Classic into a tack driver.

30Cal
May 18, 2007, 11:56 AM
Looks like it's the barrel.

I'm thinking you are correct. You might get better results with a float tube, but I doubt it'll get you where you want to go.

Ty

DBR
May 20, 2007, 12:43 AM
Grump:
Have you checked to make sure the barrel nut is correctly torqued?

BoomerTG1
August 12, 2007, 10:12 PM
I'm the other shooter with that rifle. We just checked the throat, and a Nosler 77-gr HPBT Match bullet hits the rifling/leade at 2.5" OAL.

How bad for our accuracy is it for the bullets to be .25" off the lands?

dcloco
August 13, 2007, 12:02 AM
I only read your thread, but I can just about guarantee that your barrel is copper fouled.

Look in the muzzle (unloaded please) and if there is ANY copper coloring on the lands, you need to clean that barrel. If copper is present, it will be TOUGH to get out.

Take the two seconds and look...your frustrations might be right there.

Sunray
August 13, 2007, 01:19 AM
Change powders. Your rifle doesn't like the Varget.

NuJudge
August 13, 2007, 03:25 AM
I have not shot any Colt barrels, but I have a lot of experience with different twist AR barrels. I have two loads that have worked in 1:8, and 1:7 twist barrels (the 52gr load also works in a 1:9 barrel that refuses to shoot anything else):

52gr bullet (any make, but I usually use Sierra), 26.5 gr 748, CCI primer, and LC or Winchester case.

69gr SMK, 24.3gr IMR 4895, Winchester primer, Winchester case

The problems I had with groups from the AR were largely related to head positioning. I had great trouble with groups when transitioning to the AR from the Garand. Consistent head positioning is much more difficult on the AR. Being blessed with long arms and a long neck, I use the left lobe of the charging handle placed in my right nostril. If you can't reach that, get a shorter A1 stock and try that.

CDD

Grump
August 13, 2007, 10:04 AM
Will report on the next, and probably final, round of testing with this rifle.

Head position and cheek pressure are consistent. I used to shoot collegiate level smallbore, so this is not new to me.

Bore is unlikely to be heavily fouled. Sweet's patches are coming through with hardly any green by the end of cleaning sessions.

Checked the barrel nut just for looseness. No wobbles there.

Checked FS tower and RS and anything else that could be loose or wiggly. Nothing is loose.

Put in an accu-wedge, too.

Nothing is working, not even GMM.

DBR
August 13, 2007, 06:48 PM
The barrel nut can cause accuracy problem way before it wobbles. The only way to know for sure is to remove the gas tube and re-torque the nut. Min torque is 35 ft lb max is 85 ft lb. You should be able align the nut with the gas tube hole in the receiver within this range.

If you can find a gunsmith or hobbyist who has the tools it only takes about 20 min to do this.

byf43
August 14, 2007, 08:15 AM
Grump,

Before giving up, please try this load.

23.0 gr. H-335
Winchester or Federal Brass, trimmed to 1.750" (LIGHTLY de-burr casemouth!)
Federal 205 or 205M primer
Sierra 69 gr. BTHP MatchKing bullet

Seat the bullet so that it JUST fits your magazine(s).


This load consistently shoots 3 shots (@ 100 yds.) into a group that can be covered by a dime, off of sandbags, in my Colt AR-HBAR w/1:7 twist barrel.
It also shoots really well in a friend's POST-ban AR Colt Sporter Match (HBAR).

My AR also likes the American Eagle 55 gr. FMJBT loads, too, at 100 yds. I don't shoot many of these, though.


Give the barrel a good cleaning with Kano-Kroil and then follow up with Hoppe's #9 or Hoppe's Copper Solvent.

Push some Kroil into the barrel on a patch and get the barrel really wet, inside.
Let it sit for about 15 to 30 minutes before starting to clean.
You'll be surprised how much gunk comes out with Kroil.








Keith

dcloco
August 14, 2007, 08:34 PM
Let your favorite copper remover sit in the barrel for an hour...then see if the patch is green.

FM12
August 15, 2007, 10:26 AM
Try the lighter, flat base bullet for ranges up to 200 yards. In shorter ranges, the heavier bullets do not stabilize. Ilove H335 in the .223 caliber, and have shot small groups with a bushmaster I had using H335 and 50-55 grain bullets. Dont shoot 55 gr FMJ with cannelure for group size. Try Sierra 52 or 53 to eliminate the bullet factor.

For ALL AR shooters, get a a copy of Glen Zediker's book "the Competetive AR, The Mouse that Roared" or some such title. About 100 pages on reloading alone. If you shoot an AR, you NEED this book.

Ken C
August 15, 2007, 11:17 AM
Have you tried a different set of dies ? If the rifle shoots OK with various flavors of factory ammo and, with all you have tried, not with handloads, it may not be the rifle. Seems to me, logically, something is amiss with the dies or the die setup. Sounds like you know what you are doing regarding setup, so, by elimination, something is probably wrong with the die(s).

Grump
August 15, 2007, 02:27 PM
If the rifle shoots OK with various flavors of factory ammo and, with all you have tried, not with handloads, it may not be the rifle.
No. Read the thread. See Posts no. 29 and 42.

This, by the way, has been a problem with loads using not just Varget, but 4064, H335, and AA2230, and match bullets of 52 gr (flatbase and BT), 55-gr (NOT just FMJBT, but Sierra SPBTs), 53 gr, 69 gr and 77 gr. Makers have been Sierra, Hornady, Nosler and Speer.

Current question is whether this dismal performance with ALL ammos, including Federal Gold Medal Match ("GMM") and [not named until now] HSM 69-gr match out of Montana, is likely to be purely caused by .24 inch bullet jump to the lands.

Anyone??

Beuhler??

Bullet
August 15, 2007, 04:32 PM
I doubt the jump to the lands is the problem, but you could try seating longer and single feed and find out.

I still believe that the Colts just aren’t match grade. While this is not to say that some might shoot real good while others don’t. Kind of like the luck of the draw. A better trigger might help.

Steel Talon
August 15, 2007, 09:19 PM
Hello Grump,,

Sounds like its time to try some Blue Wonder bore cleaner. It'll will take the copper fouling out like their is no tomorrow Easy to use, cheap. Also is your crown of the barrel nicked/marred etc. And, have you scoped the bore yet?

Peace
ST~:cool:

243winxb
August 16, 2007, 02:01 PM
When workiing up loads and testing, i would think 100 yards would work better. Even with wind flags, if you miss a condition, wind change,the groups can grow fast.

Grump
August 25, 2007, 10:33 PM
Two different loads with 80-grain bullets did no better than 3 MOA.

My vote is the barrel is truly shot.

If you enjoyed reading about "Improving Accuracy of .223 Loads?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!