[seeker_two]

After watching the History Channel's show on Wake Island & also the events involving PFC Lynch, I was left with a few questions about surrender & if I could do so in similar circumstances. I hope those who have been in the armed services (active, reserve, & retired) could help answer these questions...

1. In the face of an enemy (i.e. Imperial Japanese, Viet Cong, Iraquis) whose treatment of prisoners are known to be brutal, would you consider surrender if overwhelmed by their forces?

2. If ordered to surrender, would you follow that order?

3. If you refused to surrender, what action would you take (guerrilla warfare, escape the area, etc.)?

4. What would be the ramifications (military law, Geneva Convention, etc) for a soldier who refused an order to surrender?

If you're on active duty, don't answer if it will result in negative consequences. If you can answer (no matter what your status), I'd be grateful...

[ojibweindian]

I would not surrender.

[stevelyn]

Death is preferable to being taken prisoner.

[Al Thompson]

What we were told was that surrender is the only command you do not have to obey (other than a clearly unlawful one).

[Leatherneck]

Death is preferable to being taken prisoner.
Completely OK for your personal attitude. But among those responsible for leading others, many have come to believe that they didn't have the moral authority to order others' deaths in vain. Generally, surrender is deemed appropriate only when further resistance is seen to be futile or impossible (i.e., the means to resist gives out).

TC
TFL Survivor

[Pilgrim]

When the Japanese surrounded Corregidor in the Philippines, I believe the Japanese commander insisted General Wainwright surrender all U.S. forces in the Philippines and not just those on the island fortress under his immediate command. I suppose the Japanese thinking was that any U.S. soldiers and Marines who refused the order and continued to resist could be considered bandits and not protected by the Geneva Convention. Such legality seems trivial because the Japanese didn't treat lawful prisoners of war any differently than they treated bandits in my opinion.

I remember reading some interviews of North Vietnamese soldiers who said they thought U.S. troops were fanatics since the only Americans they took prisoner were rendered incapable of fighting because of wounds. The rest of the Americans fought to the death. Maybe the U.S. soldiers feared capture more than death. Maybe it was the phenomenon Grossman talks about in his book, "On Killing." Grossman said the closer the combat became, the less likely prisoners were taken.

On the other hand, in the early days of the Korean War a number of U.S. soldiers surrendered to the North Koreans. They were found later shot in the back of their heads, their hands bound behind them with commo wire.

For aircrews surrender or death was a different matter. Merely ejecting from a disabled aircraft was an example of a strong need to survive. To throw away that life shortly thereafter in a futile attempt to escape deep in enemy territory was contradictory. Besides, the aviator shot down rarely had anything more lethal than a pistol. Facing troops and militia armed with rifles and submachine guns while only armed with a pistol is psychologically defeating.

I know Vietnam era combat pilots who said they vowed beforehand they wouldn't be taken prisoners, but after being shot down threw away their pistol so they wouldn't piss off their captors. I guess they realized in the end that if they surrendered they might live. Resistance meant certain death, something they just avoided by pulling the face curtain of their ejection seat.

I guess the decision to fight or surrender will ultimately end up being a group or individual decision depending on the circumstances.

Pilgrim

[HBK]

Well said, Pilgrim. I can't say what I would to until the situation arose, but I'd like to think that I would escape.:D

[MJRW]

Oh I love it. This is such an easy question to armchair. "Of course I wouldn't surrender!" I'm doubting that the people that have answered this question haven't been faced with the choices since they are here to answer the question. I have a hard time believing that the brave marines of Wake Island were cowards compared to the brave forum posters of THR. Personally, gentlemen, I find your unqualified and short answer to be an affront to the courage of those marines.

I would like to think that I have a portion of that courage. And that if there were such a NEED for my death over my surrender, I would hope I would choose death. If my death would save others whereas my surrender would ensure great harm or death on others, I hope I would make the right choice there. If my surrender did not cost anyone their lives or put them in great harm, then I most likely would surrender. This is what I would hope to do.

[Baba Louie]

Somehow I favor Frank Luke to, oh... say... John McCain.

But that's just me. YMMV

Adios

[Lancel]

I considered this question while I was active Army. Lessons learned from those who had been captured or surrendered especially since WWII gave me the following conclusions which were confirmed and emphasized when I was up against hostile forces:
Surrender is worse than death.
If my commander has surrendered, he/she is no longer my commander.
"No one can take away your right to never surrender."
Although I would inform my troops of the surrender of a higher command, I would do it in such a way that the troops were not ordered to do the same. It would have to be an individual decision.

Note that at the various U. S. Army training centers (NTC, JRTC, CMTC, etc.) units train to fight against overwhelming odds.

Larry

[Feanaro]

If I faced capture by an enemy like the Nazis or North Vietnamese I would attempt to fight to the death. It's easy to sit here and tell you that but in a battle you never know. However given the treatment of prisoners(by such people) I'd rather take my chances on the field.

[Boats]

As in all things, one must look at the circumstances and keep them in context.

The Japanese invasion of Wake took place three weeks after Pearl Harbor and before the Japanese heartily earned their reputation for barbarity against everyone and not "just" the Chinese.

Wake is an island only in the loosest sense. It is really three atolls with scarcely any significant vegetation, free flowing water, wildlife, size or other resources to sustain a guerilla action post surrender of the "less committed."

There was no prospect for relief or resupply. The relief forces which were dispatched from Hawaii were recalled for the fear of losing a capital ship or two so closely following Pearl Harbor.

Everyone can play Monday morning quarterback, but surrendering at Wake was not an insane choice at the time, only in retrospect of what we know of Japanese abuses of Allied POWs does it look questionable.

[Al in Md]

I have never been in the service and never been in harms way. That being said I have no reason to dispute a persons or officers decision to surrender. If one was to look back in history there are many examples of commanders just wasting the lives of their soldiers for fighting on after a tactical situation becomes hopeless. I work with a Nam Vet that carried a 1911 with him that he swore He would eat rather than be captured. Al

[T.Stahl]

Where are all the Patton fans?
"Your job is not to die for your country - Your job is to make some poor dumb bastard die for his!"
How does that go together with commiting suicide just to evade captivity? :confused:

Is your life worth less than your pride?

I'd rather surrender with just a little hope of escape or survival than throw away my life.

Look at it this way, as a dead soldier you're binding zero enemies, as a POW you're keeping some guards from fighting your comrades. ;)

[Jim March]

Odd historical note: the Nazis actually treated most British and American captured enemy quite reasonably. Note "most". G-d help you if they found out you were Jewish. I don't know know how blacks or Mexican-Americans or ??? were treated, but man, I wouldn't want to find out. The US military units staffed by Japanese-Americans and serving in the European theater didn't get captured, I don't think. As Japan was nominally a German ally, I would assume they'd have come out OK.

[jsalcedo]

My favorite stories are the ones where the solider goes down fighting taking down as many of the enemy as possible.

These actions I understand are not for everyone. Front line combat soliders who face the enemy daily may not see surrender as a viable option.

Support personnel taken by surprise and outnumbered may have a different reaction

After surrender tragedies like Malmedy, Baton, and the POW MIA
debaucle in North Vietnam it would seem that surrender might not be such a great idea when facing a godless, fanatical enemy.

My dad told me a story yesterday (fathers day) about American servicemen who had been captured when he was in Vietnam.

If the NVA were forced to retreat the American soliders who overran the enemy position he would find Americans tied to stakes gutted alive, castrated, skinned, tortured, used for target practice. etc...


At that point he decided he would never be captured or surrender. Infantymen were worthless to the enemy and were often disposed of in the worst ways or used as slave labor and subsequently starved or tortured.

I tend to agree with him. It took him over 30 years to be able to talk about some of the horrific and gruesome things he saw the enemy do to captured Americans.

[George Dickel]

I have read the same as Jim March stated about treatment of American and British soldiers by the Germans. The Nazis did not treat the Russians well though. While touring the Dacau concentration camp we went through as area at the rear of the compound where there was what looked like a drainage ditch for rain water. There was a sign that said the ditch was for draining blood from Russian prisoners who were tied to a stake and used for target practice. I can't imagine of how many people you would have to kill to necessitate a ditch to drain the blood away.

I have read some horrific stories of brutality by the Japanese during WWII. I think I would rather die than to be a prisoner and suffer that kind of treatment which often ended in death anyway and a rather ignoble death to boot. I would like to think that I could take a few more of them with me before I was killed. Never put in that position so I can only speculate.

[Feanaro]

Where are all the Patton fans?
"Your job is not to die for your country - Your job is to make some poor dumb bastard die for his!"
How does that go together with commiting suicide just to evade captivity?

Is your life worth less than your pride?

I'd rather surrender with just a little hope of escape or survival than throw away my life.

Look at it this way, as a dead soldier you're binding zero enemies, as a POW you're keeping some guards from fighting your comrades.

In the face of the enemies mentioned death is much nicer than surrender. Because you not only stand a good chance of dying but dying in a slow, painful way. As an ex-sniper said on the History Channel "I had eight shots, seven were for the VC and the eighth was mine."

[geekWithA.45]

If captured to escape, and if escape wasn't possible, to cause the enemy to consume as many of the enemy's resources as possible?

Of course, that doesn't apply if they only resource they intend to consume is the time it takes to torture a guy to death.



As an ex-sniper said on the History Channel "I had eight shots, seven were for the VC and the eighth was mine."


Sounds to me like a grenade would be a better tactic, take some of the bastards with you.


---------------------------
You can never tell how brave ya are (or aren't) till you try.
---------------------------

[fallingblock]

I've just finished an interesting book on the subject of U.S. P.O.W.'s arising from the surrender of the Phillipines in WWII.

"Ghost Soldiers" by Hampton Sides.

Among the interesting statistics which give insight into the treatment of prisoners by the Japanese:
****************************************************
"Western armies fighting in WWII typically saw a ratio of four soldiers captured to each one killed."

"For the Japanese, the ratio was one soldier captured for every 120 killed"
****************************************************
To the average Japanese in the field, if you surrendered, you were some sort of dishonorable lowlife:uhoh:

More statistics:
****************************************************
"The death rate of all allied prisoners held in camps by the Germans and Italians in WWII was approximately 4%."

"The death rate of allied prisoners held in Japanese camps was 27%."
This rate of 27% excludes a significant percentage who never made it to the camps, but were executed after capture.
****************************************************
Certainly the nature of those you are fighting must influence the choice when the decision to surrender is pondered!

[MicroBalrog]

Sounds to me like a grenade would be a better tactic, take some of the bastards with you.

Russians did that a lot in Afganistan, there's lots of songs and memoirs about that.

[grampster]

My father was a combat decorated WW II infrantyman. He was captured in Belgium along with his squad. They were sent into a village to scout out the area so the company could move up. Military Intelligence said "No Nazi's in the area".
They wound up in furious firefight with German infantry supporting a tank unit. The fought till they had no ammunition left. A couple of men were wounded.

Now, my armchair warriors, what would you do now?

You have no ammo, you are confronted by a superior force that continues to shoot at you and yell at you and most of your squad is injured. You have also inflicted casualties on the enemy.

Again, what do you do now, my monday morning quarterbacks?

I know finally what my father and his men did that day because after about 50 years of silence about his days in combat he recorded his experiences on cassette from the day of his entry into the military to his discharge. His story filled both sides of two tapes.

I don't believe I ever heard such a moving experience told by a man who was humbled enough by his experience that he never again picked up a firearm the rest of his life. He remembered the names of the men he served with, the places they were and the duty they performed in our name. Trust me when I say he was along with millions of his peers, one of the "Greatest Generation". He died at age 92 in 1999. He, my friends, was confronted with the very decision you fantacize about. They grudgingly surrendered that day because, in the words of Edgar Rice Burroughs famed character, John Carter, "We are not dead yet!"

It's always fun to daydream about what one would do in a given circumstance. Best to understand it is only a dream. One never really knows what one will do till asked to stand and deliver.

grampster

[Oleg Volk]

One reason for carrying a projectile weapon is that it makes much more difficult to capture a person. A man armed with a gun can force the opposition to kill him by posing an immediate thread to would-be captors. A man with a knife can't do that as well. The Japanese, of all people, ought to appreciate that option...

PS: If I recall correctly, Germans and Russians off'd 50-60% of each other's POWs.

[brownie0486]

I read with great interest the responses here.

Having been "in country" in 1970 for a years tour courtesy of our grand Uncle Sam I may have an opinion based on reality and not an armchair point of view.

MJRW: Good observations

You fought until there was no way to survive as a group.

You fought until you ran out of ammo as an individual, if you got separated from your main supports.

You may have become a prisoner through no decisions made by you or the CO's, but just being unlucky. It may not have always been a decision you were allowed to make at times.

Soldiers around the world torture and physically abuse their captives for the most part in third world countries where torture is accepted and well established in that culture. Not many follow the geneva convention where prisoners are concerned.

grampster: My sincerest regrets at the passing of your dad. He gave everything he had to protect our freedoms when we needed men like him to do so. Too many lack the understanding to comprehend what the "dogs of war" went through daily in a far away land in the 40's and the decisions they made which they lived with forever after [ and usually never mentioned anything afterward if they got home ].

When I was 18 I had already been trained as a warrior by the Corps and found myself in a land far away where my dutifull actions were not favored by much of this countries severely listing to port anti-war crowds.

Those who state they would rather die than be captured at all costs should ask the men and women who were taken prisoners, spent time in Hanoi's Hilton and eventually were returned to their countries alive after having lived through intolerable conditions whether they made the right choice to be taken prisoner and not commit suicide by continuing to fight when all hopes of winning were out of the questions.

It's about pucker factors to me. Those who have experienced a pucker factor of 10 know what I'm talking about, those whose pucker factor meters haven't ever hit above 3-4 can not relate to the reality of the situation.

Ones decisions in combat are dependant on being able to roll with what is happening and dealing with the pucker meter.

When given a choice between certain death and living, no matter how horrible it may be, most will usually choose life at that moment.

Humans live on hope. Faced with possibly surviving and returning home one day vs. dying now, I think many will be able to actually make a logical decisions about the question.

You fight until you can no longer fight because of overwhelming superior numbers and lack of equipment, you are ambushed and/or wounded with no choice, it would be futile to continue with all hope of surviving at that moment.

I wish my gradfather would have talked more about the war as well. He could not be pushed to reveal anything about that time in his life. Even when I returned from RVN in "71", years later he would still say nothing or ask me anything about the time I served as well.

God bless every man and woman who has ever served with honor and distinction in any of the conflicts the US has been involved in since it's founding. Hard choices by hard men and women under dire circumstances. If it could only be related to the "me" generation today.
_________________________________________
For those who may appreciate it, the below for your review.

"Wish You Were Here"

For all the free people that still protest. You're welcome. We protect you and you are protected by the best. Your voice is strong and loud but who will fight for you?

No one standing in your crowd. We are your fathers, brothers and sons
wearing the boots and carrying guns.

We are the ones that leave all we own to make sure your future is carved in stone. We are the ones who fight and die. We may not be able to save the world, Well, at least we try.

We walked the paths to where we are at and we want no choice other than that.

So when you rally your group to complain, take a look in the back of your brain.

In order for that flag you love to fly, wars must be fought and young men must die. We came here to fight for the ones we hold dear. If that's not respected, we would rather stay here.

So please stop yelling, put down your signs, and pray for those behind enemy lines. When the conflict is over and all is well, be thankful that we chose to go through hell.

Corporal Joshua Miles and all the boys from 3rd Batallion 2nd Marines, Kuwait
_____________________________________________

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do harm on their behalf.

Next time you folks see a serviceamn or woman, brighten their day by acknowledging you understand what they give up so you may enjoy the luxuries this country has to offer.


Brownie

[grampster]

Brownie,

Thanks for your comments about my dad and his peers. You, sir, have my highest regard and solemn "thanks" for the duty you have performed. That high regard is held by more than perhaps you know. It was a difficult time and better was the character of the soldier who served his country rather than that of those unsavory, vocal few who chose to question that character. It seems to be a trait among those heroes among us to be silent about the necessary chore that was performed. Heroic deeds done need no words of explanaition or to seek self agrandizement. Again, thank you.

I happened to be a leo at that time and perhaps, in that way, partially fullfilled my debt to my country. Many of my friends served with you. All of them, save one, returned.

Dear 3rd bttn, 2nd Marines: Semper Fi!

grampster

[dog3]

From Memory, someone correct me
if I get it wrong.

It's been a lot of years;

I am an American fighting man, serving in the forces that guard our country and protect our way of life, I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.

If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and to help others escape. I will accept neither parole nor favors from the enemy.

If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

Should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country.

I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.

I meditated on this a lot when I was active.
I had no qualms about any of it.

Still don't.

Folks who would never surrender, well,
you'll never really know what you will
or will not do at any time in any situation
until you have been in all times and all
situations. IOW, until you are God. All others
must punt.

[Lancel]

Some points that come to mind as folks take a "holier than thou" approach toward surrendering or not:

1. Being captured (caught and overpowered) is not the same as surrendering (giving up).

2. fallingblock's comment is a strong one:
Certainly the nature of those you are fighting must influence the choice when the decision to surrender is pondered!
3. During the Korean War, the vast majority (75% IIRC) of those that surrendered still had enough ammo and food to carry on the fight. This resulted in President Eisenhower establishing the Code of Conduct by executive order in 1955. That's the code that dog3 posted that says "I'll never surrender of my own free will" among other things.

Although there were plenty of atrocities during WW II, it seems to be the dividing line as to how American POW's are treated. From Korean War onward it seems that America's military has been most often confronted by cultures with very different viewpoints toward the value of human life or the depth of human suffering.

It's an easy chose to not surrender if you believe your only chance at survival is to continue the fight.

Larry

[brownie0486]

dog3:
You brought back a flood of memories with that post that had long been put away and forgotten.

I thank you for bringing it back to the forefront of my mind. A long time ago in a far off land, we lived by codes of honor and duty.

Blessed are the souls resting in all far away lands in unmarked/marked graves who gave the ultimate sacrifice for their brothers and sisters.

"There but for the grace of god, go I"

Brownie