[Steve Smith]

Since I got my cool new Pre-ban, I'm eyeballing an SSK .300 Whisper and suppressor. Does anyone have one? How do you like it? I might buckle and put a bipod on this one.

BTW, info on the Class 3 suppressor buying process would be beneficial and very much appreciated.

[444]

Just curious Steve, but why that particular caliber ?

[Steve Smith]

I'd like something with as much punch as I can get and have it #1 subsonic #2 fit in an AR upper/lower #3 work well in an AR magazine #4 easy feeding, and #5 easy to form.

I'm open to other suggestions, of course, but the .300 Whisper seems to fit all the reqs. It uses 220 and 240 grain bullets to keep max energy at distance.

[444]

The reason I ask is that I recently bought an upper in .458 SOCOM. I really didn't give it a whole lot of thought, there was a group buy on AR15.com and one of my buddies talked me into it. But after ordering it, I started thinking about it and have come to the conclusion that it might be the best option for something similar to what you describe.
It has just about all the punch you could hope for in an AR upper short of .50 BMG. Supersonic, it can do 2000 fps with a 300 grain bullet.
Subsonic is easy. It uses .458 diameter bullets. There is a very broad selection of bullets out there for the .45/70. If you want a potent subsonic load, how about something from Barnes at 600 grains ? This gives you subsonic velocity along with a great big chunk of lead on the recieving end. We all have read the arguments between big bullet vs. high velocity. With the suppressor, you have to give up the high velocity, so why not use a huge bullet in a big diameter ?
It uses a standard AR mag as a single stack. I haven't heard anything negative in regards to reliability. The little bit of shooting I have done with my upper and an AR mag was flawless.
As I understand it, it is easy to form from the .50 AE case, but again no personal experience but I have read that after forming from .50 AE, the case is too short. Not a real big deal because factory brass is available, although it isn't a good steady supply. We made a group purchase from Starline. I only got 500 cases because of the other associated expenses, but I am working on getting 1000 more. We currently have another group buy going for dies. Corbon is supposed to be coming out with factory ammo in this caliber; 300 grain bullet at 1800 fps.
I haven't wrung out my upper yet, but it looks accurate. Floated barrel and all that. I have only fired about 20 rounds out of it so far. Too hot to shoot right now.

Just a few thoughts, take it for what it is worth.

[Steve Smith]

I appreciate your thoughts. I do have a few questions, though, I wonder how easy it would be to loads such a small powder charge (for the subsonic rouds) in such a large case. Also, I wonder how 200-400 yard ballistics are for the 600 grain bullet. Wound a 600 grain bullet going 1000 fps at the muzzle even GO 400 yards? If so, would it be like throwing a rock at your target? Would I need a 20 degree scope base for 400 yard shooting? (lol) I don't know.

Called SSK and J.D. Jones will be back in the office in about half an hour...I'll ask him then. I'd like to hear your comments, though.

[444]

Well, the 600 grain bullet was just an example. I know you can go down as low as 300 grains, that is what I am shooting; got the bulk Remington HPs from Midway. I don't know the answers to your questions, but I am sure it can be done, even with the 600 grain bullets. Remember all the stories of the long shots Elmer Keith made with the .44 Special at velocities like that. Of course he was only shooting a 255 grain bullet or something like that out of a handgun. Let me give you a few links and maybe you can learn something. I personally have not spent a lot of time researching this. I just got the upper a couple weeks ago and really haven't been bitten by the bug yet. I am at the stage of just being happy to shoot it. By the way, SSK makes an upper in this caliber. I didn't buy mine from him, but if the designer of the .300 Whisper is buying into the .458 SOCOM concept, that tells me something.

http://www.mylittlespark.com/ar15/458Socom.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=142408
http://www.teppojutsu.com/ This is where I bought my upper. He has a forum on his website to discuss the caliber.
http://www.sskindustries.com/atlantis/ar15.html
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=157701

I would love to hear what J.D. says about the caliber. I once had a very superfical aquantance with him. I grew up about 10 miles from where he lives. He was a member of the same Rod/Gun club as my dad, and he shot handgun silhouette with my best friend and his dad. About 25 years ago (or something like that), I worked for DMV and got him the licence plate; 375 JDJ (I didn't pull the stings to get it for him, just picked it up for him). But I never really knew him or talked to him. Just saw him around.

Somewhere I have a link of on-line videos of guys shooting various NFA stuff. There are a couple on there of guys shooting full auto, suppressed .458 Socoms. I think the link is on my laptop. I will have to look around for it.

[Steve Smith]

I didn't buy mine from him, but if the designer of the .300 Whisper is buying into the .458 SOCOM concept, that tells me something.

Right. Your response is what led me to contact JD and ask him about its (.458) downrage potential. I'll post his response. I know he's real keen on the .300, but I'm so far out on this, I'm certainly willing to consider the .458...besides, I was already thinking about a .458 as well. I figured I'd be buying a .300 Whisper/suppressed AND a .458 SOCOM evenutally so if I can have my cake and eat it too I'll be a happy guy.

Not sure of a (light end of spectrum) 300 grainer could go subsonic and get reliable ignition with that little speck of powder in that big case. JD will know.

Thread is STILL open to eveyone's comments.

[MLC]

I think lobbing a 240gr SMK at targets sounds like a more accurate approach than the 458. Plus a 30 cal will supress much more easily then a 45 (assuming both are subsonic).

[444]

"Plus a 30 cal will supress much more easily then a 45 (assuming both are subsonic)."

Why ?

[Steve Smith]

I'm guessing its because there is more frontal area pushing more air.

Ok, JD says the 458 SOCOM is pretty miserable at 250+ yards. Beyond that he said that you could turn brass bullets to simulate a SMK design, but I don't want to get into that and he really talked it down anyway. He said the .458 normally gives 4-5" groups at 200 and that's mainly because of current bullet design. Sounds like the .458 SOCOM would be great for 200 and under only, but if you wanted to stretch it out, you'd hate the accuracy and bullet drop. Since he pretty much stopped me cold regarding the 458 there was no point in asking "what bullet weight and what's the drop at 400?" Sounds like the .300 w/ 220's or 240's are the ticket.

[444]

I kind of suspected that at long range, the .458 would leave a lot to be desired. I figured it for a 200 yard gun. Obviously I also own a .444 Marlin, and the .458 SOCOM is similar. I ran some numbers on a ballistics program and settled on a 175 yard zero. This puts you about 4.1" high at 100 and a little more than that low at 200; with a supersonic load. As he said, the bullets are pretty much designed for relatively short range encounters. There really arn't any real sleek bullet designs that I am aware of, but there are spitzers (Barnes) but no boat tails and all that. There are certainly plenty of long range bullets in .30. I would go out on a limb and say that the most accurate bullets made or some of the most accurate bullets made are available in that caliber. That certainly might be the ticket if you want real long range pinpoint accuracy. I am not sure, but I was under the impression the .458 SOCOM was designed as kind of an entry weapon. Huge power at across the room ranges.
For me, I don't really care. I am not going to suppress mine, and I wasn't planning on doing any real long range shooting. 4"-5" groups at 200 yards doesn't sound all that bad to me. I bought my upper as a toy, but there is always the possibility that I might get a chance to hunt with it someday. I have never taken a big game animal at over 100 yards, maybe even 80. 4"-5" is plenty accurate enough for big game hunting.

I will be interested in hearing more about the .300 Whisper, subsonic, at long range. What are the numbers on it ? Drop, energy etc. ?

[Gewehr98]

Why does that limit it to 200 yards or less? Or are we talking about available elevation adjustment based on the AR-15 platform?

Since I joined the ranks of the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle silhouette shooters, I've learned that those big slow slugs can do some neat things, like consistently knocking over a heavy steel buffalo silhouette at 800-1000 yards. The platforms are Sharps, Rolling Blocks, and Hi-Walls, and I've done the same with an unsanctioned Ruger #1S.

Granted, the AR-15 probably doesn't have enough elevation to dial in a Billy Dixon shot way out there, but given enough time on my mill and lathe, I could build an aperature rear sight for a flattop AR-15 that would put that .458 slug on paper way out there past 200 yards. It might even come from, or resemble, the flip-up vernier from the Lee-Enfield No5Mk1, with both a short-range peep and the tall adjustable long-range vernier. :D

Dunno if the ammo makers can stuff one into the short .458 SOCOM case and still feed from the normal AR magazine, but there are some .458 bullets that have better drag coefficients. A 300 to 405gr bullet may have a rainbow arc of a trajectory, but it can still be dialed in to connect, with a startling amount of accuracy.

[444]

It isn't a question of making the rifle shoot further than 200 yards. It will. The limitation is accuracy.
I am reading between the lines here, but knowing that Steve is a High Power shooter, I would imagine that he has some pretty strict accuracy criteria. So he is not only looking for long range, but very accurate long range.
Also reading between the lines, I would imagine that Steve is planning on using a scope on this rig, since he mentioned that he is going to be using a bi-pod. Although I might be wrong.

I have to admit that when I first posted on this thread, I hadn't given these two points much thought. When I think of suppressed weapons, I usually don't think about precision long range rifles. My personal suppressors are .22s, and I have considered buying one for my 9mm AR. Never really gave a whole lot of thought about long range stuff, although I knew it was being done by the military and law enforcement. The more I think about it now, the more it intrigues me. This might be a heck of a coyote set-up in close to town.

[MLC]

444
I've been under the impression that the effectiveness of the suppressor is based on the ratio of overall diameter to diameter of exit port. So in equally sized cans,ones you'd hang front the front of an AR, a 224 or 308 would be more efficient in suppression than large bore like the 45.

[444]

I don't know. I figured it had something to do with the size of the hole in the end but I don't know enough about the subject to comment.
I am a novice in the subject of suppressors, but it seems to me that the subsonic velocity places some severe limitations on what is possible and practical. For example in 5.56, it seems to me that slowing the bullet down to subsonic velocity would make it about the same thing as a standard velocity .22LR with about 15 grains heavier bullet and maybe better bullet constuction. The bullet construction may not be better since it was designed to be fired at high velocity where the .22LR bullet is actually being fired at it's intended velocity. This also seems to me at least to make the 9mm a good candidate for suppressed use. With 147 grain bullets, it is subsonic anyway and the bullets are designed to perform at that velocity. However, the cartridge has it's shortcomings. This was the reason the bigger bullet seemed more practical to me. You don't have the velocity, but you can have a big, slow moving bullet that still has plenty of penetration even when subsonic; not to mention the big hole it will put in stuff.

[Steve Smith]

Yes, I do expect some good accuracy with this, and the .300W can deliver that a lot easier than the .458. Hey, it was a good thought, 444, and I appreciate it! Yes, sadly (hanging head in shame) I will be putting a bipod and scope on this one...just makes sense, I think. This is going to be a 5-6 month project, apparently, so don't expect me to have pics next week.

As far as trajectory, I have more to learn, but JD was telling me that he'd identified a few Leupold Mil-Dots that work really well for the 300. The way he zeros it (I think a 4x? more to ask him later) the top dot is a 250 yard zero and the bottom dot is a 450 yard zero, and he has his in-between ranges in his head at each dot. He also said that a 3-10x scope could be used stretch the distance because he'd taken to time to calculate the Mil/distance equivalent at two different power settings (3x and 10 x). He noted that the fixed power scope would be easier for the man who had to shoot "RIGHT NOW." An interesting way to set up a scope, for sure. Much to think about, I have (Yoda talk)

First things first, I gotta get the suppressor paperwork going. Roomate says the county is a non-suppressor county...I'll find out.