MSN Article on Gun Control Poll.


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xd45gaper
April 19, 2007, 06:43 PM
http://men.msn.com/articlepollgc.aspx?cp-documentid=4732850&gt1=9311

article on MSN inwake of the recent VT shootings about how americans feel about Gun Control.

My question is this. They say this is the WORST MASS MURDER in US HISTORY. but what was the world trade center? European History? have we had a flip in numbers where 3000+ is less than 30+??? Was the world trade center not a mass murder of 3000+ civilians or does it not count becuase a firearm was not used? what do you all think of this?

Also what is with all the Assualt weapons bans or All out firearms bans people want? more gun control. I know as well as all of you know that the firearm was not at fault here. Society was at fault. The Cho said him self they had over 1000 times to stop what happend. They ignored his teachers saying he was over the top. So I guess when its your fault its easier to point your finger at someone else and take libertys away from them than to take the blame your self. :cuss:

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Mannix
April 19, 2007, 06:56 PM
Government aside(because when they do it it's called law), this is the worst US SHOOTING massacre. This tragedy aside the worst school shootings I know of happened in Erfurt, Germany in 2002, where 18 people(including the shooter) were killed, and an even more disgusting shooting in Dunblane, Scotland where a gunman killed 16 primary(grade) school kids plus their teacher in 1996, before turning the gun on himself.

Both countries have very tight restrictions on firearms.

DoubleTapDrew
April 19, 2007, 06:57 PM
I thought the article was pretty fairly balanced and what I took away from it is the majority of America now feels stricter gun control laws don't help (and a surprising large chunk of the pie feels more people carrying could have prevented it).
Also, there's a poll on the left side of the article, hit it.
At the time I voted:
Which do you support?
More gun control: 33%
More gun rights: 51%
Neither: 15%

ravnew
April 19, 2007, 07:03 PM
No article appears at the link when I tried it but there is a poll on the left hand side.

Which do you support
more gun control : 33%
More gun rights : 51%
Neither : 15%

ACP
April 19, 2007, 07:04 PM
Quite frankly, this horrible event in Virginia might be a turning point in the national gun control debate -- not that guns can be used for ill purposes, but that these students and professors were sitting ducks, and that a well-reasoned handgun policy on campus could perhaps have saved dozens and dozens of lives. Wishful thinking? I don't know, based on the tenor of these national polls...

Sheldon J
April 19, 2007, 07:07 PM
From the archives...
The worst school disaster ever in the United States, based on number of deaths, was right here in Michigan on May 18, 1927.

The Bath School disaster happened in Bath Township where 45 people were killed and another 58 were injured. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School.

Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to four closure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.

On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months.

As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.

DoubleTapDrew
April 19, 2007, 07:26 PM
The article:



Americans Speak on Gun Control
Will college shootings change minds on either side of the debate?
By Melissa Segrest
When madmen go on killing sprees in America, they use guns. Inevitably, in the aftermath, the arguments about gun control begin. But a poll conducted in the days after the Virginia Tech massacre found that the majority of Americans don't fully align themselves with either the pro- or anti-gun arguments.
The MSN-Zogby poll found that 59 percent of Americans do not believe stricter gun control policies would have prevented Cho Seung-Hui from killing 32 people and then himself in the worst mass murder in America's history. The poll found that only 36 percent of those polled believe stronger gun control could have prevented the shootings.
However, arming more Americans with guns is not the answer either, most people say. Slightly more than half of those polled—54 percent—say that more guns would not stop killing sprees. Thirty-eight percent believe a better-armed populace could help prevent such mayhem. (The interactive survey of 1,336 adults nationwide was conducted April 17-18, 2007, and carries a margin of error of +/- 2.7 percentage points.)
Despite the noisy debate that is likely to occur in the coming weeks and months about gun rights, only a minority of Americans believes the massacre in Virginia will lead to more gun control. Nearly half—45 percent—do not think the deaths will result in stricter gun laws, and another 40 percent are unsure whether changes would occur.
The most vocal and powerful opponent of gun restrictions, the National Rifle Association, so far has been quiet on the issue, offering only a brief statement on its Web site of condolence to those who lost loved ones on the Blacksburg, Va., campus.
But others groups, from both sides of the gun control issue, are speaking out: "We're all in a state of shock and very sad at what happened," says Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence. "Now is not the time to be raising political questions, but soon our country will have to ask why do we make it so easy for dangerous people to get access to these high firepower weapons. … What we're doing now certainly is not working. We have very weak gun laws, and 32 people plus the gunman were killed in this shooting. But 30 people are killed in gun homicides every day."
Meanwhile, a gun advocacy group, the Second Amendment Foundation, issued this statement: "80 million law-abiding gun owners in this country did not go to Virginia Tech or some other college campus yesterday to unleash carnage. They have harmed no one, and their civil rights should not be erased in response."
According to 2004 statistics, the most recent available, of all the deaths in the U.S. more than 11,500 were from gun-related homicides, and 16,750 people committed suicide by firearm. There's no official count of the number of guns in America, but one survey estimates that the number is 192 million.
Delving Into the Numbers
The MSN-Zogby poll found that younger adults are slightly more likely than older adults to see stricter gun policies as a means of prevention—among those 18 to 29, 39 percent say more stringent gun control could avert tragic shootings, compared to 26 percent of those age 65 and older.
Still, more than half (53 percent) of the younger adults say increased gun control won't help, an opinion that becomes increasingly popular as adults get older. Nearly three in four (72 percent) of those age 65 and older didn't think tighter gun control policies will prevent shootings.
Those who live in large cities are more closely divided on the issue than those who live in less populated areas—49 percent in large cities believe stricter gun control won't help, but nearly as many (47 percent) believe it could prevent shootings.
On the question of arming more Americans, political affiliation led to a stark contrast in opinions. Eighty-nine percent of Democrats do not think more guns would avert tragedies like at Virginia Tech, while only 24 percent of Republicans share that view. Independents are evenly split on that issue. Men are more likely than women to believe that more armed Americans is a viable deterrent. The divide between urban and rural America is large: 62 percent of city dwellers say that arming more Americans would not help prevent such tragedies, while nearly half of rural Americans, 49 percent, believe it would.
More men than women believe that gun control laws will not change in the aftermath of Monday's murders. Political positions did not make much of a difference on this point: 47 percent of Democrats and 46 percent of Republicans say they do not believe the laws will change.
A Spectrum of Views
Ladd Everitt, director of communications for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence, a gun-control advocacy group, wonders when the country's political leaders will seriously discuss gun control. "Looking back on the Amish school shooting, we really hoped there would be a serious debate about gun policy in this country at that point, the proliferation of guns," Everitt says. "President Bush held a conference on school violence and never mentioned the word 'gun.' A lot of the reaction we're hearing is, ‘When are we going to talk about this?' "
Charles Carl Roberts IV killed five girls before killing himself in an Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, Pa., last October.
The gun lobbying groups have been very successful in "stymieing debate," says Everitt. "If you support any moderate gun control policy you're an enemy of freedom. That just dumbs down what really needs to be a serious and thoughtful debate."
Historically, an event like what happened at Virginia Tech gives gun control advocates a slight advantage in polling, says Alan Gottlieb, founder of the Second Amendment Foundation, a gun advocacy group. But that bump is short-lived, Gottlieb says. Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, polls typically have been more favorable toward gun owners' rights, and Gottlieb doesn't expect these numbers to shift much in the aftermath of Virginia Tech. In fact, he speculates that the public may see it as better reason to arm themselves. "I think the American people today look at this [massacre] and think there's no way any law is going to prevent anyone this crazed… bent on mass destruction. They're not going to abide by the laws, and so the events are going to happen and there's nobody to protect me but me."
Perhaps two regular Americans, on either side of the debate, can say it best.
Kristin Vincenzo works for a wine distributor in Seattle. She says the magnitude of the Virginia Tech shootings should serve as a catalyst for stricter gun control laws, particularly tougher permitting guidelines and safety regulations.
"Those kinds of things make me say, ‘Yeah, we should have tighter gun control laws," she said. "Yes, I would like to see them tightened."
The sheer, horrific magnitude of the massacre made it likely that the subject would stick in the public consciousness and not fade away as a "flavor of the week" issue, she adds.
"I would hope that, if nothing else, the large number of deaths that happened in this incident would have a longer lasting effect on the public, and prompt people to want to do something," Vincenzo says. "I hope this isn't just something that occupies their time until Britney Spears gets out of rehab again or something."
Dr. Lester Dyke is a 51- year-old surgeon who lives in South Texas. He has been a hunter all of his life, and even his five children are active shooters.
"Yes, we are a violent country, there are a lot of guns, there are a lot of people, there's a lot of strife in this country. But you know, we're a free country, we're pretty much the last free country in the world, and whenever you have a lot of freedom you're going to have a lot of people that abuse that freedom," he says. "You have to ask yourself as a society, ‘Are we willing to give up a lot of freedoms and become pretty much of a watchdog state, in order to try to prevent most of these?' "
"We're a people who defend themselves and don't take any guff off anybody," Dyke says. "That's what founded us and that's what kept us free. And I'm kind of proud of that heritage."



There are two pie charts on the article.
1: Would stricter gun control help prevent tragedies? No: 59% Yes: 36% Not sure: 5%
2: Would more people carrying guns help prevent tragedies? No: 54% Yes: 38% Not sure: 8%

mec
April 19, 2007, 07:30 PM
the opperant word is " Shooting" when they talk about massacres. I head about a dude in new york who got mad at his stupid old girlfriend and tossed a jumbo sized molotov into a bar. Killed 85 people.

Henry Bowman
April 19, 2007, 07:38 PM
The MSN-Zogby poll found that 59 percent of Americans do not believe stricter gun control policies would have prevented Cho Seung-Hui from killing 32 people and then himself in the worst mass murder in America's history. The poll found that only 36 percent of those polled believe stronger gun control could have prevented the shootings.

However, arming more Americans with guns is not the answer either, most people say. Slightly more than half of those polled—54 percent—say that more guns would not stop killing sprees. Thirty-eight percent believe a better-armed populace could help prevent such mayhem. (The interactive survey of 1,336 adults nationwide was conducted April 17-18, 2007, and carries a margin of error of +/- 2.7 percentage points.)What I take from this poll is that 36% think more gun control is the answer and 38% believe that more guns is the solution. The other 26% are either unsure or believe that neither is the solution. Many of them are persuadable. This is not bad news at all. It's rather encouraging to me.

mdao
April 19, 2007, 07:56 PM
What I take from this poll is that 36% think more gun control is the answer and 38% believe that more guns is the solution. The other 26% are either unsure or believe that neither is the solution. Many of them are persuadable. This is not bad news at all. It's rather encouraging to me.

Agreed. I find the polls very encouraging. The "more guns is the solution" is astoundingly high given how few people hold CHLs, and the even lower amount of people that carry daily.

Lobotomy Boy
April 19, 2007, 07:56 PM
I agree that this is encouraging for supporters of the Second Amendment, overall. The 38 percent who support gun rights are going to be a lot more diligent and organized than the 36 percent who support more anti-2A laws. And we'll keep at it long after they've become distracted by something else.

antsi
April 19, 2007, 09:21 PM
So far, it seems that this incident has made the anti-gun-owner crowd noisier, but I am not seeing anything to suggest that it is swaying undecideds.

It is too often overlooked that in politics, the outcome is most often determined by how the undecideds swing. Just about every controversial question has a hard core element on both ends of the spectrum who really care about the issue and are never going to change their minds. Abortion, death penalty, guns... whatever the issue, there's usually a smallish group of serious pro's and serious anti's. The majority of people don't care that much, don't study the issue, and don't think that much about it. And usually, the side that gets the middle to swing toward them winds up winning the battle.

I'm not surprised to see the hard core anti's trying to make hay off this tragedy. That's what they do. If the undecideds go along with them, then we are in trouble. If the undecideds find their rhetoric unconvincing, then it will be nothing more than hot air.

Bartholomew Roberts
April 19, 2007, 09:30 PM
The MSN-Zogby poll found that younger adults are slightly more likely than older adults to see stricter gun policies as a means of prevention—among those 18 to 29, 39 percent say more stringent gun control could avert tragic shootings, compared to 26 percent of those age 65 and older.

I am a bit worried about that statistic. I hope it just suggests that as you get older and wiser you realize that most gun control is a sham; but if it means different generational views on guns then it is going to spell trouble for us in the future.

xd45gaper
April 19, 2007, 09:54 PM
i agree that the article is pretty non biased, but! from what ive kept up on about the shootings at VT its a witch hunt for firearms. which is a very very sad situatuion. I figured it would be from the time i heard it, i told my friend that not only does the shooting sadden myself, that being a gun owner and pro second amendment/pro gun that even though the guy was a total nut job, and he probably couldnt own a gun legally(i was thinking to my self he was a total nut job and had to have had mental problems) that physcos like this give all us that own guns a very very bad name and make us look like mass murder'ers in there eyes and they are going to use this as an accuse (not blame them selves or society) to enforce more gun laws and make it harder for us law abiding citizens to own or purchase guns.

im deeply saddened for what happend to the VT students and my condelnces go out to the familys of the students who died in this tragedy. but by imposing bans and a bunch of gun control laws/registration that this is going to stop this from happening again someone is pulling the wool over someones eyes...and the ones who are the most effected are the law abiding citizens.. not the people who ignore pyscos or there cry for help....

jfh
April 19, 2007, 09:55 PM
to see a PUBLIC poll on these numbers to be this good.

Doesn't anyone else remember the early nineties--i.e., when Sugarman had started up the assault weapon game, and EVERY discussion was framed by the antigun people? And, reported as such by the MSM?

Doesn't anyone else sick Willy and the Democrats porking through the AWB, and we were lucky Bob Dole brokered the makings of a flawed law? Then the sleeping giant awakened.

It was only five years ago--ten for some--that CCW laws were hotly contested, and the blood in the streets mantra held sway. FIVE years ago, MN State Legislators wore flak jackets for their symbolic last-ditch grandstand against MN's CCW law, finally passing after eight years.

Two months ago, a hunter assails EBRs in a national blog, and the gun community acts in concert to put him in his place--and the MSM still hardly notices it? And now three days after the "deadliest shooting rampage in history", we have a poll--public, from a reputable pollster, FWIW--that shows as many of the general public sees no help from gun control as they do from more guns?

We've achieved a stunning victory in public awareness AND gunny cohesiveness. Lobotomy Boy has it right. It's a never-ending fight for hearts and minds...but in 1994, I NEVER thought 2007 would look this way.

Jim

velojym
April 19, 2007, 10:16 PM
Linked to these articles is another one where the author *calls* for an elimination of private transfers without background checks. So much for property rights and privacy.
Big opportunity for black-marketeers, though.

Mortech
April 19, 2007, 10:28 PM
Well I'm waitng for the comparision between our Tacoma Mall shootings here in Washington state and this event at VT to drawn .

Bartholomew Roberts
April 19, 2007, 10:30 PM
I like the little red, white and blue handgun logo. Clearly an older Browning Hi-Power with the commander hammer and tiny sights. Nice.

Outlaws
April 19, 2007, 10:47 PM
The poll Zogby poll was just over 1000 people. There are 300 million Americans, how can a 1000 person poll even come close to accurate. Flipping a coin 100 times could yield close to a 50/50 number, but flipping it only 4 to 8 times times may yield something drastic like 75/25.

AndyC
April 19, 2007, 10:57 PM
it is stunning to me to see a PUBLIC poll on these numbers to be this good.
Thank goodness for the internet - we're no longer reliant on the MSM to feed us only the news and opinions they want us to see.

Now we're making some of the news, we're reporting it, discussing it, and making our voices heard; we won't be shut up, silenced and ignored any longer. Reminds me of the music industry...

Go, us ;)

xd45gaper
April 19, 2007, 11:18 PM
The poll Zogby poll was just over 1000 people. There are 300 million Americans, how can a 1000 person poll even come close to accurate. Flipping a coin 100 times could yield close to a 50/50 number, but flipping it only 4 to 8 times times may yield something drastic like 75/25.

thats what made me wonder and then they wrote this about a gun deaths in america "According to 2004 statistics, the most recent available, of all the deaths in the U.S. more than 11,500 were from gun-related homicides,"

11,500..... thats it 11,500 we have 700,000+ alone in jacksonville, FL take the population of the US that is less that what 1% of the population that was killed by firearms?! LESS THAN 1%!!!!!!!!! we should have stricter vehicle laws rather than stricter gun control laws.!!!!!!!!!:banghead: :banghead:

Unisaw
April 19, 2007, 11:18 PM
Mortech, I don't get your point. Please be a little more specific.

jfh
April 19, 2007, 11:29 PM
Someone else with a (current) background in statistical analysis can provide the supporting data--but a 1000+ person poll, built on a good population sample, is a reasonable basis from which to get valid analyses about a larger population.

FWIW, this is still 'statistical analysis'--but it is a valid analysis if done by a reputable pollster. Zogby is. I'm impressed they got this poll accomplished in little more than two days. Now we need to see more of the details, but it's apparent that they did not survey 'just Democrats located in the NE Atlantic states.'

Jim

Rem700SD
April 20, 2007, 04:06 AM
Which do you support?
More gun control 31%
More gun rights 55%
Neither 14%

145215 responses, not scientifically valid, results updated every minute.

at the time of my vote

Colt
April 20, 2007, 09:17 AM
I hope it just suggests that as you get older and wiser you realize that most gun control is a sham; but if it means different generational views on guns then it is going to spell trouble for us in the future.

I'm not sure the results can be read as negative, primarily because we're missing a key demographic: 30 to 64 year-olds. To me, 30 or so is the "age of enlightenment." It's when people start thinking more about government and how it's affecting their family. This group is also likely to be internet-savvy, and not at the mercy of the mass media for their information.

18 to 29 year-olds are internet-savvy, but for the most part are still using their hearts instead of their minds, all while being influenced by college professors and their peers.

65 year-olds and higher, IMO, seem to get their news and opinion from the 6 o'clock news, the NY Times, Newsweek, and Time. Not exactly nuetral parties in the gun control debate. People this age, with some excepetions, are not internet addicts by in large. The fact that so many in this group seem to support gun rights is encouraging.

I'm concerned, too, but I think the age groups in the article were cherry-picked.

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