25 years murder-free in 'Gun Town USA'


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Desertdog
April 19, 2007, 06:47 PM
And the anti gunners blame the guns. I don't think so, and this is proof.

25 years murder-free in 'Gun Town USA'
Crime rate plummeted after law required firearms for residents
Kennesaw, Ga., City Hall
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288


As the nation debates whether more guns or fewer can prevent tragedies like the Virginia Tech Massacre, a notable anniversary passed last month in a Georgia town that witnessed a dramatic plunge in crime and violence after mandating residents to own firearms.

In March 1982, 25 years ago, the small town of Kennesaw – responding to a handgun ban in Morton Grove, Ill. – unanimously passed an ordinance requiring each head of household to own and maintain a gun. Since then, despite dire predictions of "Wild West" showdowns and increased violence and accidents, not a single resident has been involved in a fatal shooting – as a victim, attacker or defender.

The crime rate initially plummeted for several years after the passage of the ordinance, with the 2005 per capita crime rate actually significantly lower than it was in 1981, the year before passage of the law.

Prior to enactment of the law, Kennesaw had a population of just 5,242 but a crime rate significantly higher (4,332 per 100,000) than the national average (3,899 per 100,000). The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

By comparison, the population of Morton Grove, the first city in Illinois to adopt a gun ban for anyone other than police officers, has actually dropped slightly and stands at 22,202, according to 2005 statistics. More significantly, perhaps, the city's crime rate increased by 15.7 percent immediately after the gun ban, even though the overall crime rate in Cook County rose only 3 percent. Today, by comparison, the township's crime rate stands at 2,268 per 100,000.

This was not what some predicted.

In a column titled "Gun Town USA," Art Buchwald suggested Kennesaw would soon become a place where routine disagreements between neighbors would be settled in shootouts. The Washington Post mocked Kennesaw as "the brave little city … soon to be pistol-packing capital of the world." Phil Donahue invited the mayor on his show.

Reuters, the European news service, today revisited the Kennesaw controversy following the Virginia Tech Massacre.

Police Lt. Craig Graydon said: "When the Kennesaw law was passed in 1982 there was a substantial drop in crime … and we have maintained a really low crime rate since then. We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area." Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta.

The Reuters story went on to report: "Since the Virginia Tech shootings, some conservative U.S. talk show hosts have rejected attempts to link the massacre to the availability of guns, arguing that had students been allowed to carry weapons on campus someone might have been able to shoot the killer."

Virginia Tech, like many of the nation's schools and college campuses, is a so-called "gun-free zone," which Second Amendment supporters say invites gun violence – especially from disturbed individuals seeking to kill as many victims as possible.

Cho Seung-Hui murdered 32 and wounded another 15 before turning his gun on himself.

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jad0110
April 19, 2007, 08:23 PM
My email. Perhaps not perfect, but I tried to provide an explanation in simple terms :rolleyes: :

To whom it may concern:

Tonight on the NBC Evening News, a former ATF agent identified as “Joe Vince” made a statement that many civilians and law enforcement officers will certainly strongly disagree with. He stated something to the effect of, “Hollowpoints are not something you would need for home protection. The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me.”

That this is a politically motivated, anti gun statement is plainly obvious to me and the vast majority of civilian gun enthusiasts and law enforcement officers alike. He asserts that hollowpoints are not needed for home defense. On the contrary, they are generally much better suited than other types for home defense, lawful concealed carry, and law enforcement alike. I do have a few points to make:

1. ALL ammunition is designed to stop/kill. Otherwise no one (law enforcement, law abiding citizens, and criminals alike) would use firearms! It does not matter if it they are Jacket Hollowpoints, Round Nose Lead, Full Metal Jacket, Lead Semi Wadcutter, etc etc. There is zero evidence to support that any of the various types listed are more or less deadly than another.
2. A hollowpoint bullet is exactly what it sounds like. Instead of the rounded, somewhat pointed bullets most people picture in their minds, there is a small “cup” hollowed out into the tip of the bullet. This generally allows the bullet to expand like a parachute when it strikes something, slowing it.
3. Given the prior statement, hollowpoint ammunition is the preferred type for most law enforcement agencies and civilians alike because it is less likely to exit an attacker’s body and strike an innocent person on the other side (the biggest fear of civilians and police). I say less likely because in actual police and civilian use, they don’t always expand as intended. But when they do, the risks are significantly reduced to bystanders. Additionally, there is some evidence that indicates hollowpoint bullets are slightly less likely to ricochet than other types.

For these reasons, I and many other civilians and police departments alike carry hollowpoints for defense. Honestly, I pray each day that I never have to use them. God forbid if I do, my hope is that those hollowpoints will function as designed and provide a reduced threat to any innocents that may be in the vicinity.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

me

ptmmatssc
April 19, 2007, 08:44 PM
Think you wanted THIS thread


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=271162

dasmi
April 19, 2007, 08:54 PM
Way to go Kennesaw.

dubious
April 19, 2007, 09:41 PM
Wow, that's pretty cool! I'm definitely intrigued. This has the potential to become a keystone in the 2A debate.

If I were to explain this to any of my friends who feel trepidation about the 2A, they would definitely want to take a closer look at these statistics. So do I. I live in a city of about 50,000 and there are about 3 murders a year... I'm not sure how many are due to firearms.

I'm going to do some more research on this, but maybe you can all help me. Maybe you can answer some of my questions, and maybe you can come up with some questions of your own. The more we flush out the details, the more effective this is to our debate. My friends are pretty smart bastards, so I better be well equipped to argue with them. :rolleyes:

Some questions that come to mind are:

1) What are the larger trends in gun Violence in the Nation and in the States of Georgia (Kennesaw) and Illinois (Morton Grove). What were the trends in those counties and surrounding counties? Do those trends indicate that Kennesaw is an island of peace due to its firearms requirements?

2) What are the levels of poverty, literacy, and sheer desperation in Kennesaw and Morton Grove? A quick glance at wikipedia tells me that they both have similar median incomes in the 2000 census... apparantly Kennesaw is slightly poorer with a 60k average income vs. Morton Groves 63k average income (both pretty darn high). That indicates that Kennesaw should have a slightly higher crime rate. The racial makeup is also fairly similar, not that I believe in racial profiling.

3) What are the crime levels of areas neighboring these towns? Is Morton Groves a rich town surrounded by poor, high crime towns? Do criminals target Morton Grove and not Kennesaw for other reasons besides gun ownership?

That should be plenty for you all to stew on... please post any other questions or answers that you can think of.

GTSteve03
April 19, 2007, 10:51 PM
Born and raised in Kennesaw. What a great little (well, not so little anymore!) town. :)

I don't live there anymore, but that's cause of traffic in the Atlanta area. Too many damn Yankees moving down here and clogging the roads. :mad:

dubious, to answer partly your 3rd question, Marietta is a large town nearby to Kennesaw. There is quite a high crime rate in that area, partly due to lower median income I believe, but I don't think a lot of that crime spills over to Kennesaw. Perhaps the criminals there know better than to hang around "Guntown" too much.

dubious
April 27, 2007, 02:02 AM
I'd really like to get some more answers to all of this. If you think about it, cities are complex systems... perhaps even organisms. There are a lot of details to think about, but if we can just flush out the larger details, I think we can make a REALLY convincing argument here...BUMP!

GRIZ22
April 27, 2007, 01:26 PM
Wow, that's pretty cool! I'm definitely intrigued. This has the potential to become a keystone in the 2A debate

I'm a supporter of the RKBA but I think you'd find a lot of towns of 5200 population that haven't had a murder in 25 years. A better example would be Philadelphia which is a larger city, in a state with decent gun laws having a murder rate that puts it about 25 in the country across the river from Camden being #1 in homicides in a state with some of the most strict gun laws.

There has been an increase in homicides in Philadelphia recently but I think the truth will show that's being caused by overflow from Camden. Philly could probably lower it's crime rate by closing the Ben Farnklin Bridge.

Fulcrum of Evil
May 12, 2007, 08:29 PM
The last study I read on the subject concluded that gun control/guns for just about everybody had little effect on crime; the major factors are upbringing and economic opportunity.

Of course, if I have a gun, then the criminals that _do_ exist will have a harder time with me, so why not?

thexrayboy
May 12, 2007, 08:42 PM
Wow, that's pretty cool! I'm definitely intrigued. This has the potential to become a keystone in the 2A debate.



There is no 2A debate and such a "debate" between those who uphold it's intent and those who think that the 2A is toilet paper cannot occur. The reason for this is that a debate requires logic, rational thought and composure. The antis scream at the top of the lungs how evil guns are, how dangerous the country is because guns exist and that we should ban them all.... " do it for the children". Then when a proponent of 2A rights attempts to state the facts supporting the rights to arms, the antis throw a temper tantrum, they start shouting, arguing and interrupting any and all who attempt to state rational facts. They all but stick their thumbs in their ears and waggle their fingers going LAH LAH LAH LAH LAH so they can't hear
the facts.

Debate can only exist in the realm of reality. The antis live in a fantasy world ruled by emotion, warm fuzzies and wishful thinking. They are the perfect tools for the socialist power structure that uses them in the effort to destroy our rights and enslave self sufficient citizens.

DJAteOhAte
May 13, 2007, 11:11 AM
Why doesnt anyone mention Kennesaw's preempted and unenforceable GUN BAN in their city parks?

jerkyman45
May 13, 2007, 11:37 AM
25 years murder free in a town with a population approaching 27,000 is quite something, and it has a lower crime rate then Morton Grove, a town with a lower population. I think this is just more concrete evidence that we as pro RKBA people have whereas the antis counter our logical arguments with rederick and misguided opinion. Kennesaw proves to us what we already know, and flies in the face of the antis that are convinced that inanimate objects somehow cause crime.

Lennyjoe
May 13, 2007, 01:38 PM
I'm looking at a couple jobs at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. How far is Kennesaw from Atlanta?

zero_chances
May 13, 2007, 02:46 PM
YAY FOR MY TOWN, Kennesaw is a great place:)

Lennyjoe I'm looking at a couple jobs at Atlanta Hartsfield Airport. How far is Kennesaw from Atlanta?

About 25 or 30 miles/45-50 minutes.

DJAteOhAte Why doesnt anyone mention Kennesaw's preempted and unenforceable GUN BAN in their city parks?

Ummm.. What? I have yet to hear this, can you please explain?

tulsamal
May 13, 2007, 03:23 PM
I'm a supporter of the RKBA but I think you'd find a lot of towns of 5200 population that haven't had a murder in 25 years.

You must have missed the new numbers at the end of this quote:

The latest statistics available – for the year 2005 – show the rate at 2,027 per 100,000. Meanwhile, the population has skyrocketed to 28,189.

And...

We are sure it is one of the lowest (crime) towns in the metro area." Kennesaw is just north of Atlanta.

So this isn't some little sleepy rural town of 5000 where the median age is 75. It is in the Atlanta metro area and the population is approaching 30,000. No murders in a town of that size is noteworthy.

Gregg

zero_chances
May 13, 2007, 03:29 PM
This not a small rural town at all. There is nearly 4,000 kids in my highschool, and there are several highschools here. The population has been rapidly growing the last couple of years, so the numbers are much higher than the 2005 statistics.

armed85
May 13, 2007, 03:38 PM
I used to live near Kennesaw before I enlisted. A "sleepy rural town" it is not. You've obviously never visited the city. You can sit in a traffic jam for over an hour driving through Kennesaw. Traffic jams are the norm.

zero_chances
May 13, 2007, 03:43 PM
I used to live near Kennesaw before I enlisted. A "sleepy rural town" it is not. You've obviously never visited the city. You can sit in a traffic jam for over an hour driving through Kennesaw. Traffic jams are the norm.

When did you live here, its gotten really, really bad in the last year. 41 (cobb parkway) is turning into another barret parkway.

tecrsq
May 13, 2007, 07:10 PM
Was born and raised in Cobb County "Marietta" and can say Kennesaw is a great city to live in or around.

Has grown incredibly since the 70's and the growth pace is pretty much like the bedroom communities of Atlanta that surround it.

I live in Cherokee Co. now and just today drove through my old stomping grounds in Kennesaw, as usual traffic was bad and everyone was out doing the Mothers day routine.

Still its a safe place to live, the community takes pride in taking care of itself and neighbors still help each other out.

GoSlash27
May 13, 2007, 08:44 PM
Has this story been picked up anywhere other than WND?

4v50 Gary
May 13, 2007, 08:54 PM
Been to Kennesaw once. I didn't see anyone packing except the police. Be that as it may, they have a wonderful Civil War & Railroad Museum there. The famed engine, General, is housed in that Smithsonian affiliate.

DJAteOhAte
May 14, 2007, 08:15 AM
Why doesnt anyone mention Kennesaw's preempted and unenforceable GUN BAN in their city parks?

Ummm.. What? I have yet to hear this, can you please explain?

Via MuniCode, from Kennesaw's Code of Ordinances Sec. 66-2

These rules and regulations are developed to set standards of conduct in the parks owned and operated by the city. These rules are designed to ensure the safety and enjoyment of park participants.
...
It shall be unlawful to:
...
(4) Have in their possession any weapons or firearms including but not limited to hand guns, rifles, air gun or any knife that could be used as a weapon.

This city code is clearly preempted by OCGA 16-11-173

(b)(1) No county or municipal corporation, by zoning or by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, shall regulate in any manner gun shows; the possession, ownership, transport, carrying, transfer, sale, purchase, licensing, or registration of firearms or components of firearms; firearms dealers; or dealers in firearms components.
...
(d) Nothing contained in this Code section shall prohibit municipalities or counties by ordinance, resolution, or other enactment, from requiring the ownership of guns by heads of households within the political subdivision.

Kennesaw's gun ban is clearly illegal and unenforceable.

Desertdog
May 14, 2007, 12:56 PM
Kennesaw's gun ban is clearly illegal and unenforceable.
To my none lawyer mind, someone needs to be charged with having a firearm in the park and fight it in the courts.

DJAteOhAte
May 14, 2007, 03:08 PM
To my none lawyer mind, someone needs to be charged with having a firearm in the park and fight it in the courts.

Not quite:
http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/coweta-county-preemption/

http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/fayette-county-preemption/

http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/forsyth-county-preemption/

http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/category/action-items/lee-county-preemption/

RichardInFlorida
August 21, 2007, 11:16 PM
I know this is an older thread, but I just stumbled onto it.

The WorldNetDaily article is wrong. I was a cop there and I worked several gun related fatalities including a murder and multiple suicides.

Kennesaw is a lot safer than other places, and I am a huge supporter of the RKBA, but their facts are wrong. Overall, crime is definitely down. However, it does not do our cause any good by quoting false stats, because at the end of the day it makes us look like liars or morons. Neither is good for us.

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