Arsenal now defined as numerous magazines


PDA






feedthehogs
April 19, 2007, 10:14 PM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18209746/

Cho prepared in advance for rampage
Killer amassed arsenal, practiced shooting for at least a month


NEW YORK - We're getting a better picture of just how heavily armed Cho Seung-Hui was — a further sign of how much he had done in advance of the shootings to prepare himself for his rampage.

Virginia State Police say they're nearly done with their on-scene investigation at Virginia Tech. But inside the classroom building, investigators say they found a surprising number of handgun magazines, or clips — 17. Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds. That means, investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday.

In the photos Cho sent to NBC, he showed some of his ammunition — hollow-point rounds, purchased, officials say, in the weeks before the shootings. Law enforcement officials say hollow-points are generally considered more lethal.

Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

Investigators also say Cho practiced shooting at a firing range in Roanoke, about 40 miles from the campus, in mid-March.

As for the video clips Cho sent NBC, with his rambling rants, a Virginia State Police official on Thursday said he's disappointed that NBC News chose to broadcast some of Cho's words.

"Virginia Tech families endured, and indeed, the world has endured, a view of life that few of us should or would ever have to endure," said Virginia State Police Officer Steve Flaherty.

But NBC News says only a small portion of the material was broadcast.

"People asked all week long what was inside the mind of this killer and what was he thinking, what led him to do this," NBC News President Steve Capus said. "When that material landed on our doorstep here, I thought we had an obligation."

A further insight into Cho's background comes from high school classmates in suburban Washington who say he was bullied and laughed at over his Korean accent and shyness. When called on in class, they say, he would hang his head in silence.

Thursday, Virginia Tech officials said they would honor the students killed Monday by giving them college degrees posthumously, to be awarded at commencement in May.

© 2007 MSNBC Interactive


Law enforcement officials say hollow-points are generally considered more lethal.

Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."



Tell us Joe, what would you rather have in your gun when confronting an
armed intruder kicking down your door?

Where do they get these morons from?

If you enjoyed reading about "Arsenal now defined as numerous magazines" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ingram
April 19, 2007, 10:23 PM
Oh man... he is implying we should shoot to wound..... thats opening up a whole legal can of worms....

torpid
April 19, 2007, 10:39 PM
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

I wonder what he did during his ATF career?

Sindawe
April 19, 2007, 10:44 PM
I wonder what he did during his ATF career?Probably flew a desk, with his only time behind a weapon being when he had to qualify on the range.

Yes, lets talk to a TAX AGENT for expertise on firearms. :banghead:

ATW525
April 19, 2007, 10:46 PM
I wonder what he did during his ATF career?

Persecuted law abiding gun owners.

Elza
April 19, 2007, 11:03 PM
Simple logic proves it.

Hollow point = killer.
Cops use hollow points.
Therefore, cops = killers.

I'm glad agent Vince clarified this for me.

jad0110
April 19, 2007, 11:16 PM
This story aired tonight on NBC Nightly News. My email may not be perfect, but it's the best I could do in a 10 minutes:

EDIT: For those interested in clogging up NBC's email, here their address: nightly@nbc.news :evil: :D

To whom it may concern:

Tonight on the NBC Evening News, a former ATF agent identified as “Joe Vince” made a statement that many civilians and law enforcement officers will certainly strongly disagree with. He stated something to the effect of, “Hollowpoints are not something you would need for home protection. The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me.”

That this is a politically motivated, anti gun statement is plainly obvious to me and the vast majority of civilian gun enthusiasts and law enforcement officers alike. He asserts that hollowpoints are not needed for home defense. On the contrary, they are generally much better suited than other types for home defense, lawful concealed carry, and law enforcement alike. I do have a few points to make:

1. ALL ammunition is designed to stop/kill. Otherwise no one (law enforcement, law abiding citizens, and criminals alike) would use firearms! It does not matter if it they are Jacket Hollowpoints, Round Nose Lead, Full Metal Jacket, Lead Semi Wadcutter, etc etc. There is zero evidence to support that any of the various types listed are more or less deadly than another.
2. A hollowpoint bullet is exactly what it sounds like. Instead of the rounded, somewhat pointed bullets most people picture in their minds, there is a small “cup” hollowed out into the tip of the bullet. This generally allows the bullet to expand like a parachute when it strikes something, slowing it.
3. Given the prior statement, hollowpoint ammunition is the preferred type for most law enforcement agencies and civilians alike because it is less likely to exit an attacker’s body and strike an innocent person on the other side (the biggest fear of civilians and police). I say less likely because in actual police and civilian use, they don’t always expand as intended. But when they do, the risks are significantly reduced to bystanders. Additionally, there is some evidence that indicates hollowpoint bullets are slightly less likely to ricochet than other types.

For these reasons, I and many other civilians and police departments alike carry hollowpoints for defense. Honestly, I pray each day that I never have to use them. God forbid if I do, my hope is that those hollowpoints will function as designed and provide a reduced threat to any innocents that may be in the vicinity.

Thank you for your time.

Respectfully,

me

Leanwolf
April 19, 2007, 11:27 PM
"Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees."


Doesn't that tell you all you need to know about that government teat sucking leech who is nothing more than just another wannabee tyrant?

L.W.

Titan6
April 19, 2007, 11:29 PM
Willful ignorance. Spreading lies. Soon the information propagandits won't be able to get away with this garbage.

1. ALL ammunition is designed to stop/kill. Otherwise no one (law enforcement, law abiding citizens, and criminals alike) would use firearms! It does not matter if it they are Jacket Hollowpoints, Round Nose Lead, Full Metal Jacket, Lead Semi Wadcutter, etc etc. There is zero evidence to support that any of the various types listed are more or less deadly than another.

Whoa big guy, you might want to pull that one back. There is tons of evidence to support hollow points are more deadly. That is why nearly every state will not let you hunt large game with solid point round nose bullets. Most states you must use hollow points or soft points. You need something that will provide rapid expansion to create a large wound channel.

alucard0822
April 19, 2007, 11:37 PM
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."


guess he must have worked in the tobacco wing, I always thought that you want to eliminate an immediate threat. I would love to hear what he thinks I NEED for home protection, maybe a bar of soap in a sock, a rubber band, 3 feet of personal space perhaps.

jad0110
April 20, 2007, 12:11 AM
Titan6,

I looked down at my taskbar and noticed that I never sent the email.

If you have a chance, please PM me some more info on HP "deadliness" vs other types of rounds. I had always seen claims that they weren't any deadlier (at least on upright bipedals).

I am not questioning the info you put forth about use of HP ammo in hunting, I'm just always seeking to learn more.

Thanks for the input!

gdvan01
April 20, 2007, 12:34 AM
I wonder what he did during his ATF career?Made us wait forever to get our C&R's.

:D

Caimlas
April 20, 2007, 01:20 AM
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

&$^#!

Yeah, and federal agents shouldn't carry JHPs either, then, should they? Yes? Ah, so we mere civilians aren't entitled to the same rights as 'professionals', I guess.

And, I'm sorry, but if the guy coming at me is dead, then the threat is effectively eliminated. The same can not be said for someone slowly bleeding out on my floor, or just as likely, someone partially incapacitated and now angry coming at me still. This is a still a situation of immediate threat if he is armed.

ConfuseUs
April 20, 2007, 04:52 AM
OK, so now I know not to use the JHPs in my 9mm for home defense. Instead I will use .30-06 ball ammo and an M1 Garand for self defense. Thanks for clearing that up for me Mr Vince. I'm sure my neighbors will thank you too in the event I need to defend myself. [/sarcasm]

Titan6
April 20, 2007, 09:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handgun_Effectiveness

MilsurpShooter
April 20, 2007, 09:36 AM
So because I go shooting every weekend, have multiple rounds of surplus ammunition, and reload my ammo I'm "preparing"? I don't like being off-handedly grouped with this guy

LAR-15
April 20, 2007, 10:22 AM
Some, officials say, were high-capacity magazines that hold 33 rounds.

Looks like he had a mixture of magazines of various capacities.

Looks like he bought whatever Glock mags for his gun he could get

Deanimator
April 20, 2007, 10:54 AM
Quote:
Law enforcement officials say hollow-points are generally considered more lethal.

Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."


Tell us Joe, what would you rather have in your gun when confronting an
armed intruder kicking down your door?

Where do they get these morons from?

You have to understand his ignorance regarding firearms and ammunition. He was after all a BATFE agent...

Thin Black Line
April 20, 2007, 11:05 AM
You know I'm going to have to actually count my mags for the ol' Sig226.
Let's see there's the loaded ones I have out in the vehicle, the empty ones
still in the vehicle from my last trip to the range, there's the loaded ones
I have for homeD, there's the unloaded unopened fact mags in the safe,
there's the heavily used ones in the tub-o-mixed-mags......

Yeah, I'll take the 5th on that whole Arsenal thing if you don't mind. Please,
no water-boarding to pry that answer loose from me....

ptmmatssc
April 20, 2007, 01:14 PM
A good reply to 'ol Joe would be "So what do YOU carry? " then have him show all .

MudPuppy
April 20, 2007, 01:19 PM
Do LEOs not use Hollow Points?

TallPine
April 20, 2007, 01:29 PM
investigators say, that Cho may have fired at least 200 times during his killing spree on Monday
If indeed that monster fired 200 shots, he must not have really prepared or practiced that much if he only killed 33 people :rolleyes:

sturmruger
April 20, 2007, 01:30 PM
If 17 is an arsenal I wonder what they would call my collection!!! I am sure I have over 75 mags for all of my differant guns. I have close to 30 mags just for my XDs.

torpid
April 20, 2007, 01:37 PM
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.

"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

Apparently Mr. Vince thinks that if he had fired hundreds of rounds of ball ammunition into innocent unarmed people it would have meant he wasn't trying to kill them.

Bacchus
April 20, 2007, 01:47 PM
I like the idea of an e-mail correcting facts, but you may want to reword the part about what law enforcement and "civilians" do--LE are civilians too.

Bacchus
April 20, 2007, 01:49 PM
I like the idea of an email correcting inaccuracies and so you might want to consider rewording the statement on law enforcement and "civilians" since LE are civilians, too...

RSG
April 20, 2007, 01:56 PM
This blog post has a good reply to this NBC story and a CBS one as well.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/223512.php

How much would 15 loaded 15-round G19 mags + 2 10-rounds P22 mags weigh?

SWMAN
April 20, 2007, 03:11 PM
Joseph Vince, a retired ATF agent, agrees.
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

For home defense you certainly want HPs. Hollow points are made for self-defense. They're made to expand quickly, stop in the body and not pass thru so they can hit someone else. If I have to confront someone in my house and shoot, I don't want a round to go through the BG and pass through the wall board and hit one of my loved ones. I want it to stop in the BGs body.

Robert Hairless
April 20, 2007, 04:28 PM
"Virginia Tech families endured, and indeed, the world has endured, a view of life that few of us should or would ever have to endure," said Virginia State Police Officer Steve Flaherty.

I agree with Officer Flaherty. Few of us should ever have to endure that view of life.

Even fewer of us would have had to endure it if Virginia Tech did not prevent people with concealed weapons permits from protecting themselves on its campus.

gunNoob
April 20, 2007, 05:17 PM
I think Cho was just sick of being made fun of and bullied. Maybe if everyone treated people better, mass murders wouldn't happen.

JohnBT
April 20, 2007, 05:51 PM
Evidence of bullying? Evidence of being made fun of?

I've seen none and heard of none - but I'll take a stab at it.

I did see the roomate's interview where he described whatshisname talking about his imaginary girlfriend and the cute pet names they had for each other, etc., etc., etc. Maybe she kicked him around and then dumped him. Now that's cruel, if he got dumped by his imaginary girlfriend.

I feel sorry for him; but I'm still angry.

John

Caimlas
April 20, 2007, 06:34 PM
So because I go shooting every weekend, have multiple rounds of surplus ammunition, and reload my ammo I'm "preparing"? I don't like being off-handedly grouped with this guy

Hey, he's darn tootin' right I'm preparing, though! I'm preparing to toe off with someone like Cho, in the event that the need arises. I'd rather not be a hapless action hero, thanks - I don't carry 2lb+ around on my hip all day, every day, hidden from view, as a fashion statement, and I'd like to be prepared ("always be prepared"!) if I come up against someone else who has trained!

Gifted
April 20, 2007, 11:30 PM
17 mags? I'm pretty sure I've seen action shooters that carry more than that on thier belts at competition. And that wouldn't be counting the ones probably sitting at home.

HiroProX
April 21, 2007, 01:28 AM
Excuse me, but what would a tax agent know anyway?

Another of F-Troop's finest. *eyeroll*

Phaetos
April 21, 2007, 03:46 AM
If indeed that monster fired 200 shots, he must not have really prepared or practiced that much if he only killed 33 people

CNN showed tonight that he fired 225 times, hitting most victims 3 times. 32 x 3 = 96. Hmmm ..... he was no good shot at all. Musta trained with LAPD or NYPD, from reports on them we know they can't hit anyone within 10 feet of them. :p

ArfinGreebly
April 21, 2007, 05:20 AM
I have some boxes of ammo in .357, .38 spl, 9mm, and .40 S&W, and they all have something in common:
they all cost more than practice (target) ammo;
they are ALL hollowpoints;
and every one of the boxes says SELF DEFENSE in big letters.
So if hollowpoints are inappropriate for self-defense, shouldn't someone tell the ammo makers about that?

baz
April 21, 2007, 02:01 PM
It is pretty irrelevant, since the guy was too crazy to be irrational, but he ranted about "the rich." Sounds like he had a pretty significant investment in mags and ammo, not to mention the cost of the two guns. I wonder where he got the money? I'd bet he offed himself still owing MC or Visa a chunk of change.

Neo-Luddite
April 21, 2007, 02:43 PM
We should ban or better regulate credit cards to keep them out of the hands of the criminally insane.

.cheese.
April 21, 2007, 02:47 PM
While in this case I do get the impression that his intent was to use an many of those as possible:

Just for the sake of discussion. I am assuming that none of us have ever gone on a killing rampage :scrutiny:

so I think it would be interesting to know how many magazines everybody has. I have a lot because I figure if an emergency situation came up, it might be handy to have them in case some break.

I'll start:

Glock 22 mags - 22
Glock 27 mags - 14
Glock 23 mags - 10
Total - 46 mags (I'm not counting the 2 mags each I have for my .22 plinker rifle and .22 plinker pistol)

They just all stay in the safe except for 2 of the Glock 27 mags.

Blakenzy
April 21, 2007, 03:11 PM
"It's not something that you would need for home protection, because what you are trying to do is eliminate an immediate threat," Vince says. "The idea of killing is what this ammunition portrays to me."

oh boy.....this is just so sad :(

I mean....***...I...um....is that guy at all human??? How can you be such a moron??? And why does the media quote morons?!?!?!?? And why do I use up good bandwith quoting a moron quoted in the media??? So sad.....

Titan6
April 22, 2007, 10:39 AM
That is a scary arsenal of magazines that you have there Economist. I'd have to go count but I think I have about three to four mags per mag fed weapon.

TallPine
April 22, 2007, 11:07 AM
I am assuming that none of us have ever gone on a killing rampage
Do gophers count ...???? ;)

UnknownSailor
April 22, 2007, 11:50 AM
Phaetos, Cho hit more people than just the 33 that died. I'm not sure how many were also wounded, but it was a not-insignificant number.

Say an equal number of wounded as those who died. So, we have 66 victims, multilied by 3 shots each, that gives us 198 shots fired.

Sistema1927
April 22, 2007, 05:03 PM
Joseph Vince, retired F-trooper, is a total and complete idiot. Too bad that he is drawing a federal pension.

If you enjoyed reading about "Arsenal now defined as numerous magazines" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!